simrud wrote:

Vmart wrote:

simrud wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:I like the guy. I like his offensive moves and rebounding. But it's hard to ignore his -12.4 on/off differential (the worst among our regular players). It's the 2nd to last column here: http://www.82games.com/1718/1718NYK.HTM

What is your take on this? I figure you could have any of these reactions:
-14 games is too small a sample. It's random fluctuation.
-It's just because he's playing a lot with Lee, who also has a bad +/-. Still Kanter's is a little worse.
-His poor defense is hurting the team. Probably true but our offensive rating is a little worse with him on the court too.
-He doesn't pair well with KP.
-On/off +/- is a silly, pointless stat.

I hope the Knicks are at least aware of this and trying to figure it out.

Look at the plus minuses on Kanter's top 5, 5 man units. His net negative is the phantom impact of Beasley/Sessions being on the floor. On the other hand KP almost never plays with Beasley
I think it's pretty obvious that Kanter is not the issue - it's the Beas and/or Sessions

Actually you have a great point here.

Here are the 5 units that played any kind of significant minutes so far (more than like 5 total)

Unit Min +/-
 Sessions-Lee-HardawayJr.-Porzingis-Kanter 46   -17
 Jack-Lee-HardawayJr.-Beasley-Kanter 14   -13
 Jack-HardawayJr.-McDermott-Porzingis-Kanter 10   -14

Note that Kanter is a + in all other 5 man units.

Most of the - is coming from Sessions -17 over 46 minutes. The other 2 distant - units have him playing with Beas at the 4 and McDermott at 3 and Jack at 1. So we are talking about units with 2 other ****ty defenders.

Nice break down. Would like to see Kanter’s impact with Ntilikina on the floor.

Here you go:

Unit Min +/-
 Ntilikina-HardawayJr.-Thomas-Porzingis-Kanter 8   14  
 Ntilikina-Lee-Thomas-McDermott-Kanter 5   -8  
 Ntilikina-Lee-HardawayJr.-Beasley-Kanter 5   -3  
 Ntilikina-Lee-McDermott-Beasley-Kanter 5   0  
 Ntilikina-HardawayJr.-McDermott-Porzingis-Kanter 3   -8  
 Ntilikina-Lee-HardawayJr.-Porzingis-Kanter 3   -2  
 Ntilikina-Thomas-McDermott-Porzingis-Kanter 3   13  
 Ntilikina-HardawayJr.-Thomas-McDermott-Kanter 2   2  

Notice that all (but one) units that are - have Beas or MacDermott in them.

McBuckets is in some of the good lineups though.

Bonn1997 wrote:What is your take on this?

If any Knicks opponent can run even a mediocre level pick and roll set, they are going to simply bomb Kanter until Hornacek pulls all his teeth out.

He was horrible defensively in Utah. He was horrible defensively in OKC.

Some dudes, the light bulb seems a little dim, and with some hard work and effort and good coaching, you can make it brighter

Some dudes, the light bulb is already bright, you don't need to do anything at all.

Some dudes, the light bulb NEVER goes on.

That last version is Kanter. Defensively he is never in the right position and worse, he clearly shows he has no idea why he should be there in the first place.

Over the long haul, having four other guys try to cover for him all the time is going to create a physical and mental tax on them.

Allanfan20 wrote:

simrud wrote:

Vmart wrote:

simrud wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:I like the guy. I like his offensive moves and rebounding. But it's hard to ignore his -12.4 on/off differential (the worst among our regular players). It's the 2nd to last column here: http://www.82games.com/1718/1718NYK.HTM

What is your take on this? I figure you could have any of these reactions:
-14 games is too small a sample. It's random fluctuation.
-It's just because he's playing a lot with Lee, who also has a bad +/-. Still Kanter's is a little worse.
-His poor defense is hurting the team. Probably true but our offensive rating is a little worse with him on the court too.
-He doesn't pair well with KP.
-On/off +/- is a silly, pointless stat.

I hope the Knicks are at least aware of this and trying to figure it out.

Look at the plus minuses on Kanter's top 5, 5 man units. His net negative is the phantom impact of Beasley/Sessions being on the floor. On the other hand KP almost never plays with Beasley
I think it's pretty obvious that Kanter is not the issue - it's the Beas and/or Sessions

Actually you have a great point here.

Here are the 5 units that played any kind of significant minutes so far (more than like 5 total)

Unit Min +/-
 Sessions-Lee-HardawayJr.-Porzingis-Kanter 46   -17
 Jack-Lee-HardawayJr.-Beasley-Kanter 14   -13
 Jack-HardawayJr.-McDermott-Porzingis-Kanter 10   -14

Note that Kanter is a + in all other 5 man units.

Most of the - is coming from Sessions -17 over 46 minutes. The other 2 distant - units have him playing with Beas at the 4 and McDermott at 3 and Jack at 1. So we are talking about units with 2 other ****ty defenders.

Nice break down. Would like to see Kanter’s impact with Ntilikina on the floor.

Here you go:

Unit Min +/-
 Ntilikina-HardawayJr.-Thomas-Porzingis-Kanter 8   14  
 Ntilikina-Lee-Thomas-McDermott-Kanter 5   -8  
 Ntilikina-Lee-HardawayJr.-Beasley-Kanter 5   -3  
 Ntilikina-Lee-McDermott-Beasley-Kanter 5   0  
 Ntilikina-HardawayJr.-McDermott-Porzingis-Kanter 3   -8  
 Ntilikina-Lee-HardawayJr.-Porzingis-Kanter 3   -2  
 Ntilikina-Thomas-McDermott-Porzingis-Kanter 3   13  
 Ntilikina-HardawayJr.-Thomas-McDermott-Kanter 2   2  

Notice that all (but one) units that are - have Beas or MacDermott in them.

McBuckets is in some of the good lineups though.

I think they are ok with Kanter and MacDermott in a 5 man unit as long as the other wings / guards are good (better than average, Lee and Tim do not do the trick) defenders and Beas is not in.

SupremeCommander wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:Is it Kanter's effect on the team or is it the players that Kanter is surrounded by? This is one of the inherent flaws to +/- and it is not intended to be a one size fits all statistic

Our starting lineup is Jack, THJ, Lee, KP, and Kanter... our perimeter is two SG and a guy collecting social security. Come on

No stat should be one size fits all. But your comments don't explain why Kanter's +/- is worse than the guards you're mentioning or why KP (who plays with them) has a great +/-. It's not a onse-size fits all stat but that doesn't mean it's something to ignore.

I don't disagree but we all know you aren't a Kanter fan. I just think you are searching for stats to prove what you already believe. So why comment? Briggs posted something the other week that he was top 25 in PER. I he great? Utter crap? From what I've seen he's somewhere in the middle, and I think he's been a net-positive.

Anyone who gets in Lebrons face wearing a Knick uniform is a fave of mine but objectively aren’t we looking for more than a net plus? I’m not sure he’s an all star but if the +/- sticks he aint worth $20 million and a “net positive” Simply isn’t enough. I want the kid from Arizona Ayers or Begley.
Playoffs? Sure that’s nice but I want a championship and as KP is a budding superstar we need a great two way athlete at 5. Not just an$20 million net positive

SupremeCommander wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:Is it Kanter's effect on the team or is it the players that Kanter is surrounded by? This is one of the inherent flaws to +/- and it is not intended to be a one size fits all statistic

Our starting lineup is Jack, THJ, Lee, KP, and Kanter... our perimeter is two SG and a guy collecting social security. Come on

No stat should be one size fits all. But your comments don't explain why Kanter's +/- is worse than the guards you're mentioning or why KP (who plays with them) has a great +/-. It's not a onse-size fits all stat but that doesn't mean it's something to ignore.

I don't disagree but we all know you aren't a Kanter fan. I just think you are searching for stats to prove what you already believe. So why comment? Briggs posted something the other week that he was top 25 in PER. I he great? Utter crap? From what I've seen he's somewhere in the middle, and I think he's been a net-positive.

GustavBahler wrote:Put a quality PG in the starting lineup, who can get to the rim, and Im sure those numbers will improve. Kanter will scoop up whatever he misses.

The last reason I want to hear that Kanter is not being brought back is because of his +\-. I will take the eye test, thank you.

Kanter's D has been better than billed, he's a great teammate who plays with a lot of energy. Lopez wasnt good enough, Kanter isn't good enough. Its silly.

We've had nothing but retread PGs for the better part of the last 15-20 years, its not about the center playing respectable D, and putting up double doubles.

A quality PG will make the most of Kanter's game. Jack is serviceable, Sessions has been mediocre, Frank is still too allergic to the rim. Plug in a starting quality PG in their prime, who is a legit floor general, before thinking about blaming the center.

Unless we are getting a serious upgrade. All Star quality, I believe shipping out another center who has done good things in NY, on both ends of the court, is a big mistake. Dont care what the numbers say, the starting center postiion isnt broke. PG first.

He’s very articulate. Seems bright. Can’t we coach him up?

At a minimum he should b siting next to Noah on bench

Bonn1997 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Put a quality PG in the starting lineup, who can get to the rim, and Im sure those numbers will improve. Kanter will scoop up whatever he misses.

The last reason I want to hear that Kanter is not being brought back is because of his +\-. I will take the eye test, thank you.

Kanter's D has been better than billed, he's a great teammate who plays with a lot of energy. Lopez wasnt good enough, Kanter isn't good enough. Its silly.

We've had nothing but retread PGs for the better part of the last 15-20 years, its not about the center playing respectable D, and putting up double doubles.

A quality PG will make the most of Kanter's game. Jack is serviceable, Sessions has been mediocre, Frank is still too allergic to the rim. Plug in a starting quality PG in their prime, who is a legit floor general, before thinking about blaming the center.

Unless we are getting a serious upgrade. All Star quality, I believe shipping out another center who has done good things in NY, on both ends of the court, is a big mistake. Dont care what the numbers say, the starting center postiion isnt broke. PG first.

I don't think anyone wants to lose him. But should we bring him back at any price?

Yes, at whatever the cost dammit! Seriously, thats what this season and maybe next season, (if Kanter reups) is about. Im guessing. Determining what Kanter is worth to this team.

If we get to the playoffs, and Kanter is showing his worth, pay the man. I look what Ryan Anderson is getting, and I dont have a problem with Kanter getting something in that range. If he's shown to be reliable, and keeps playing like he is now, bringing that energy.

Would be hard IMO, and even more expensive to replace him, the way Kanter is playing now IMO. That is unless we drafted a center. Really believe we should address the PG position first, or wait on Frank this season to develop more, and see what happens.

I believe a PG with a well rounded game will do wonders for the starting lineup, including center. I hope Frank becomes that player this season. If not, next season.

I'd say it's what the next 2 months are about. We have to assume he's going to opt out, which means spending the next 2 months deciding whether to pay him big money or trade him.

I believe there is a good chance Kanter will stay beyond this season one way or another. And Ive used my allotment of "IMOs" for the week,

Bonn1997 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:I like the guy. I like his offensive moves and rebounding. But it's hard to ignore his -12.4 on/off differential (the worst among our regular players). It's the 2nd to last column here: http://www.82games.com/1718/1718NYK.HTM

What is your take on this? I figure you could have any of these reactions:
-14 games is too small a sample. It's random fluctuation.
-It's just because he's playing a lot with Lee, who also has a bad +/-. Still Kanter's is a little worse.
-His poor defense is hurting the team. Probably true but our offensive rating is a little worse with him on the court too.
-He doesn't pair well with KP.
-On/off +/- is a silly, pointless stat.

I hope the Knicks are at least aware of this and trying to figure it out.

Look at the plus minuses on Kanter's top 5, 5 man units. His net negative is the phantom impact of Beasley/Sessions being on the floor. On the other hand KP almost never plays with Beasley
I think it's pretty obvious that Kanter is not the issue - it's the Beas and/or Sessions

Good info. It is good that his main 5 man-unit is in positive territory. None of those units are doing as well as the team does with him off the court though (+8.8 per 48 min). Part of that may also be that he can't keep up with KOQ's positive impact. I don't have a problem with Kanter but I'd have concerns at this point about giving him a huge contract.

Yup, I definitely share your concern about overpaying for him

GustavBahler wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Put a quality PG in the starting lineup, who can get to the rim, and Im sure those numbers will improve. Kanter will scoop up whatever he misses.

The last reason I want to hear that Kanter is not being brought back is because of his +\-. I will take the eye test, thank you.

Kanter's D has been better than billed, he's a great teammate who plays with a lot of energy. Lopez wasnt good enough, Kanter isn't good enough. Its silly.

We've had nothing but retread PGs for the better part of the last 15-20 years, its not about the center playing respectable D, and putting up double doubles.

A quality PG will make the most of Kanter's game. Jack is serviceable, Sessions has been mediocre, Frank is still too allergic to the rim. Plug in a starting quality PG in their prime, who is a legit floor general, before thinking about blaming the center.

Unless we are getting a serious upgrade. All Star quality, I believe shipping out another center who has done good things in NY, on both ends of the court, is a big mistake. Dont care what the numbers say, the starting center postiion isnt broke. PG first.

I don't think anyone wants to lose him. But should we bring him back at any price?

Yes, at whatever the cost dammit! Seriously, thats what this season and maybe next season, (if Kanter reups) is about. Im guessing. Determining what Kanter is worth to this team.

If we get to the playoffs, and Kanter is showing his worth, pay the man. I look what Ryan Anderson is getting, and I dont have a problem with Kanter getting something in that range. If he's shown to be reliable, and keeps playing like he is now, bringing that energy.

Would be hard IMO, and even more expensive to replace him, the way Kanter is playing now IMO. That is unless we drafted a center. Really believe we should address the PG position first, or wait on Frank this season to develop more, and see what happens.

I believe a PG with a well rounded game will do wonders for the starting lineup, including center. I hope Frank becomes that player this season. If not, next season.

In Feb, after a 16 Of 20 road trip, we will know lots more. I like Kanter lots. Yet because of The cost of Noah with or without stretch, he and Kanter would run some $27mm and that’s rich unless the team surprises much more than have already. My preference may be to secure a center in the draft as it’s rich between Bamba, Ayers and Begley. They are very athletic, young and cheap and can grow with KP. Then go out and sign a Middleton or Pg or another talented 3 that plays two days. Hey I like Kanter, but let’s find out why Donovon sat him in the playoffs.

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/IanBegley/status/934209700958294016