knicks1248 wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

TheGame wrote:I thought the team would make the playoffs last year and we are essentially the same. I think Phil and the triangle was a big factor in the losses. I can see the team making the playoffs with Melo. We might as well try to make the playoffs (as long as we still give minutes to the young guys).

What was the problem the year after they win 52 Games? Mentioning 40 year old Kidd? Yeah ok... damn sure wasn't the triangle.

No it was mills not signing a back up for Tyson chandler (signed JR smith loser brother) Jr just coming of major surgery, Amare missing time, and we had no pg, think we had tony "back peddling" douglas.

Losing Kidd was huge. Not because of his ability at 40 but his BB IQ at point guard. Add Shump shooting 37%. Felton at 39%. Smith having a bad year off his 6th man year. Walking cripples like STAT, Martin and everyone's favorite Barg****innani! And Tyson having health issues.

Think the smart move would have been to come in and take 54 win core and add healthy athletic pieces around them. Not scrap for three years of do overs.

HofstraBBall wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

TheGame wrote:I thought the team would make the playoffs last year and we are essentially the same. I think Phil and the triangle was a big factor in the losses. I can see the team making the playoffs with Melo. We might as well try to make the playoffs (as long as we still give minutes to the young guys).

What was the problem the year after they win 52 Games? Mentioning 40 year old Kidd? Yeah ok... damn sure wasn't the triangle.

No it was mills not signing a back up for Tyson chandler (signed JR smith loser brother) Jr just coming of major surgery, Amare missing time, and we had no pg, think we had tony "back peddling" douglas.

Losing Kidd was huge. Not because of his ability at 40 but his BB IQ at point guard. Add Shump shooting 37%. Felton at 39%. Smith having a bad year off his 6th man year. Walking cripples like STAT, Martin and everyone's favorite Barg****innani! And Tyson having health issues.

Think the smart move would have been to come in and take 54 win core and add healthy athletic pieces around them. Not scrap for three years of do overs.

This

All we needed to do was replace Kidd was another capable player in that position. Knicks screwed up not trading for Lowry.

I think if the Knicks would have been able to land Rubio...or even Rondo...I think they could have made the playoffs this coming season.

Melo will be traded by mid season to a contender.

newyorknewyork wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

TheGame wrote:I thought the team would make the playoffs last year and we are essentially the same. I think Phil and the triangle was a big factor in the losses. I can see the team making the playoffs with Melo. We might as well try to make the playoffs (as long as we still give minutes to the young guys).

What was the problem the year after they win 52 Games? Mentioning 40 year old Kidd? Yeah ok... damn sure wasn't the triangle.

No it was mills not signing a back up for Tyson chandler (signed JR smith loser brother) Jr just coming of major surgery, Amare missing time, and we had no pg, think we had tony "back peddling" douglas.

Losing Kidd was huge. Not because of his ability at 40 but his BB IQ at point guard. Add Shump shooting 37%. Felton at 39%. Smith having a bad year off his 6th man year. Walking cripples like STAT, Martin and everyone's favorite Barg****innani! And Tyson having health issues.

Think the smart move would have been to come in and take 54 win core and add healthy athletic pieces around them. Not scrap for three years of do overs.

Who was the core?

Think you already know. Guys who had biggest minutes in 2012. Tyson, Felton, Smith, Shumpert and YOUR favorite Carmelo Anthony!! Keep role players like Novak, Cope and THJR. Add a good SF. Get a better PG so Felton comes off the bench. A couple of Vets for the bench. And you have a 50 plus team. Add another impact player, you may have a conference finals squad. Biggest problem was the Bags trade, STATS contract and no good PF to back up Melo. But its not that hard to pick possible areas of improvement when you look at guys that were on roster supporting the starting 5. Baron, Bags, Shannon Brown, Earl Clark, Toure Murray, Chris Smith, Chris Smith(yes, I wrote it twice), Jeremy Tyler, Pablo, Beno Udrich, Aging World Peace. Some household names.

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

TheGame wrote:I thought the team would make the playoffs last year and we are essentially the same. I think Phil and the triangle was a big factor in the losses. I can see the team making the playoffs with Melo. We might as well try to make the playoffs (as long as we still give minutes to the young guys).

What was the problem the year after they win 52 Games? Mentioning 40 year old Kidd? Yeah ok... damn sure wasn't the triangle.

No it was mills not signing a back up for Tyson chandler (signed JR smith loser brother) Jr just coming of major surgery, Amare missing time, and we had no pg, think we had tony "back peddling" douglas.

Losing Kidd was huge. Not because of his ability at 40 but his BB IQ at point guard. Add Shump shooting 37%. Felton at 39%. Smith having a bad year off his 6th man year. Walking cripples like STAT, Martin and everyone's favorite Barg****innani! And Tyson having health issues.

Think the smart move would have been to come in and take 54 win core and add healthy athletic pieces around them. Not scrap for three years of do overs.

I'd say the best move would have been sell high. That was clearly a core group of guys that had peaked. We could have gotten a ton of picks and young players for the #3 MVP candidate, the DPOY, and our role players coming off strong seasons.

That's not realistic. They aren't going to trade Chandler and Melo in the off season of that 54 win year for future draft picks.

That's also half a year prior to when Phil was hired. Phil came in in the middle of the 37 win team.

HofstraBBall wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

TheGame wrote:I thought the team would make the playoffs last year and we are essentially the same. I think Phil and the triangle was a big factor in the losses. I can see the team making the playoffs with Melo. We might as well try to make the playoffs (as long as we still give minutes to the young guys).

What was the problem the year after they win 52 Games? Mentioning 40 year old Kidd? Yeah ok... damn sure wasn't the triangle.

No it was mills not signing a back up for Tyson chandler (signed JR smith loser brother) Jr just coming of major surgery, Amare missing time, and we had no pg, think we had tony "back peddling" douglas.

Losing Kidd was huge. Not because of his ability at 40 but his BB IQ at point guard. Add Shump shooting 37%. Felton at 39%. Smith having a bad year off his 6th man year. Walking cripples like STAT, Martin and everyone's favorite Barg****innani! And Tyson having health issues.

Think the smart move would have been to come in and take 54 win core and add healthy athletic pieces around them. Not scrap for three years of do overs.

Who was the core?

Think you already know. Guys who had biggest minutes in 2012. Tyson, Felton, Smith, Shumpert and YOUR favorite Carmelo Anthony!! Keep role players like Novak, Cope and THJR. Add a good SF. Get a better PG so Felton comes off the bench. A couple of Vets for the bench. And you have a 50 plus team. Add another impact player, you may have a conference finals squad. Biggest problem was the Bags trade, STATS contract and no good PF to back up Melo. But its not that hard to pick possible areas of improvement when you look at guys that were on roster supporting the starting 5. Baron, Bags, Shannon Brown, Earl Clark, Toure Murray, Chris Smith, Chris Smith(yes, I wrote it twice), Jeremy Tyler, Pablo, Beno Udrich, Aging World Peace. Some household names.

2012 was the 54 win team. 2013 was the 37 win team. 2014 was the 17 win team. Why 2014 is important was that we had to wait until that off season going into 2015 until we had any cap space. So the team would have had to wait 2 years until they had the cap flexibility to replace any dead weight with upgrades. In that 2 year time frame every player in that core group had declined. Meanwhile Melo, Jr, Shump, Tyson, were all up for contract renewals.

Correct. What did I say? Shump and Jr were still under contract in 2014. Smitn accepted chump change in bext contract. Tyson was traded for Dalembert and you know who. Jr and Shump traded for nothing. THJR traded for Grant at end of year. Regardless of the cap space, you did not need a lot to upgrade the awesome high priced list mentioned above from 37 win season. Maybe just a few bags of cotton candy. And as mentioned, Stats contract and fivumf up a first for Bargs of donuts, was a problem.

The team had a 2 year window after 2012. They instantly destroyed that when they traded for Bargs. After that they would have had to replace almost all the core pieces except Melo as well as find upgrades at multiple positions. Knicks would have been fighting an uphill battle only to be mediocre. And would have had to be perfect/lucky in all their decision making. Like foreseeing Gobert as a Tyson Chandler replacement and taking him over Hardaway jr(draft is a crap shoot, so based on luck). Making the Lowry trade instead of the Bargs trade and Lowry taking his game to another level the way he did. These are the type of lucky moves that would have had to have happen directly after that 54 win season that would have kept the team afloat. As after Gobert showed signs of improvement the next year. Tyson could have been moved for another position of need like a forward that complimented Melo and provided spacing for Gobert and Lowry.

But those aren't the moves that happen. When Phil took over. Felton had a gun charge, Tyson, Smith, Shump all were having miserable years with injuries and character issues. Amare and Bargs were dead weight. Smith took 2 discounts in a row with the Knicks he wasn't taking a 3rd. Even the 2nd discount asked the Knicks to sign his brother Chris Smith as part of the deal instead of a more deserving player. He signed for a one year chump change contract with the Cavs because they were a finals contender. Then he re-upped again for a 4 yr 60 mil contract. Tyson move was a bad move by Phil, he put to much value in Calderon. He used his cap space to sign Lopez to fill the center void. Jr & Shump freed up the cap space to sign Affalo & D.Williams. THJR was moved for Grant due to the need of a PG and Grant was a highly rated one out of college. The move didn't work out the but logic was pretty sound given the needs of the team. He also drafted KP & Willy who were upgrades over Amare & Bargs.

So Lopez, Affalo, D.Williams, KP, Willy, Calderon, Grant replaced Tyson, JR, Shump, Amare, Bargs, Felton, Hardaway Jr. So the tanking landed KP to add that impact player. While the cap space still landed enough talent to replicate the pieces lost.

Phil then gambled on Rose and Noah and lost.

HofstraBBall wrote:[quote=" the beAnd you have a .

So Lopez, Affalo, D.Williams, KP, Willy, Calderon, Grant replaced Tyson, JR, Shump, Amare, Bargs, Felton, Hardaway Jr. So the tanking landed KP to add that impact player. While the cap space still landed enough talent to replicate the pieces lost.

Phil then gambled on Rose and Noah and lost.</blockquote>

Your arguing against an alternative when what occurred lead to the worst three year runs in Knick history. And people that keep saying we got KP need to realize that don't mean squat if he doesn't stay in 2019 or lead us to a chip.

Here is my point, and maybe it's because I am a season ticket holder. We had a very competitive squad. Best in a long time. Which as a season ticket holder, is all I want. Some on here are just happy to be armchair GM's and watch from afar and hope for that magical unicorn year. They dont have to pay to watch the many scrubs, they wrote about they thought would lead to a chip. Fact is, it takes many years of lucky turns and moves to make a winner. And a superstar player. We were winners in 2012. Phil's ego came in here and thought he had the answer for a 5 year solution. As many before him, he saw how difficult it is. Now, the only guys happy are the ones that think they know what it takes to build a championship and don't have to pay a dime to see their bright ideas fail. I don't want another year of 2001 to 2011 again. Watching a whole bunch of young over achievers get their bitts kicked is not fun. But again, I am the guy at the game paying to watch.

The alternative was already leading to a dead end. Knicks weren't built for sustained long term success and blew their small window of opportunity when they traded for Bargs. Melo was the only piece on that team that was built for a 5 yr run. The only way to keep it alive would be to continually use future assets in order to feed short term results. Meanwhile every core piece would be on the decline and not one player from the core has duplicated the success they had n 2012 over the last 4 yrs. Claiming we could just add upgrades and impact players to play is easy to say a lot harder to execute. Not to mention you completely ignore things like Felton catching a gun charge and his game falling off the face of the earth playing no where near the level that he displayed in 2010 or 2012. Or Tyson Chandler being injury prone and a character issue in the locker room. Its easy to throw out claims of adding impact players while ignoring actual issues that were actually going on with the Knicks.

Worst 3 years in Knicks history would be your opinion, wouldn't make it true though. Claiming KP would have to win a chip is ridiculous. First you claim that all you want as a season ticket holder is to be competitive. But KP would have to win a chip in order to be justified? Seems like a double standard to me.

You being a season ticket holder apparently hasn't given you any extra insight into the Knicks than anyone else on the board. We all follow the Knicks every move, potential moves, rumors of potential moves, rumors of rumors of potential moves, gossip and watch all the games, and dedicate time discussing everything that could possibly be discussed about the Knicks.

Everyone wants the same thing. Knicks to have something in place that sustains winning pushing for shots at the ECC. You believe that the Knick had that with the 54 win team and I don't. I believe the Knicks were due to drop off significantly. Yet lacked many assets to restock due to past trades. Bitting the bullet and not trading any more future assets, and getting their assets back in order, and building a core of players around 24-25 is a better recipie for long term sustained success which fans would be able to enjoy.

Isiah Thomas & Layden both attempted to try and build a sustained playoff team making short sighted move after short sighted move. So that season ticket holders can get their fill of playoffs and first round exits on. Layden turned a finals team into a 30 win team stuck in mediocrity, cap hell, and short on assets. Thinking they were only one player away.

newyorknewyork wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:[quote=" the beAnd you have a .

So Lopez, Affalo, D.Williams, KP, Willy, Calderon, Grant replaced Tyson, JR, Shump, Amare, Bargs, Felton, Hardaway Jr. So the tanking landed KP to add that impact player. While the cap space still landed enough talent to replicate the pieces lost.

Phil then gambled on Rose and Noah and lost.</blockquote>

Your arguing against an alternative when what occurred lead to the worst three year runs in Knick history. And people that keep saying we got KP need to realize that don't mean squat if he doesn't stay in 2019 or lead us to a chip.

Here is my point, and maybe it's because I am a season ticket holder. We had a very competitive squad. Best in a long time. Which as a season ticket holder, is all I want. Some on here are just happy to be armchair GM's and watch from afar and hope for that magical unicorn year. They dont have to pay to watch the many scrubs, they wrote about they thought would lead to a chip. Fact is, it takes many years of lucky turns and moves to make a winner. And a superstar player. We were winners in 2012. Phil's ego came in here and thought he had the answer for a 5 year solution. As many before him, he saw how difficult it is. Now, the only guys happy are the ones that think they know what it takes to build a championship and don't have to pay a dime to see their bright ideas fail. I don't want another year of 2001 to 2011 again. Watching a whole bunch of young over achievers get their bitts kicked is not fun. But again, I am the guy at the game paying to watch.

The alternative was already leading to a dead end. Knicks weren't built for sustained long term success and blew their small window of opportunity when they traded for Bargs. Melo was the only piece on that team that was built for a 5 yr run. The only way to keep it alive would be to continually use future assets in order to feed short term results. Meanwhile every core piece would be on the decline and not one player from the core has duplicated the success they had n 2012 over the last 4 yrs. Claiming we could just add upgrades and impact players to play is easy to say a lot harder to execute. Not to mention you completely ignore things like Felton catching a gun charge and his game falling off the face of the earth playing no where near the level that he displayed in 2010 or 2012. Or Tyson Chandler being injury prone and a character issue in the locker room. Its easy to throw out claims of adding impact players while ignoring actual issues that were actually going on with the Knicks.

Worst 3 years in Knicks history would be your opinion, wouldn't make it true though. Claiming KP would have to win a chip is ridiculous. First you claim that all you want as a season ticket holder is to be competitive. But KP would have to win a chip in order to be justified? Seems like a double standard to me.

You being a season ticket holder apparently hasn't given you any extra insight into the Knicks than anyone else on the board. We all follow the Knicks every move, potential moves, rumors of potential moves, rumors of rumors of potential moves, gossip and watch all the games, and dedicate time discussing everything that could possibly be discussed about the Knicks.

Everyone wants the same thing. Knicks to have something in place that sustains winning pushing for shots at the ECC. You believe that the Knick had that with the 54 win team and I don't. I believe the Knicks were due to drop off significantly. Yet lacked many assets to restock due to past trades. Bitting the bullet and not trading any more future assets, and getting their assets back in order, and building a core of players around 24-25 is a better recipie for long term sustained success which fans would be able to enjoy.

Isiah Thomas & Layden both attempted to try and build a sustained playoff team making short sighted move after short sighted move. So that season ticket holders can get their fill of playoffs and first round exits on. Layden turned a finals team into a 30 win team stuck in mediocrity, cap hell, and short on assets. Thinking they were only one player away.

You saying that it was leading to a dead end is a guess at best. You persisting that its true is just ignorant arrogance. Me saying the three years that followed and path we took led to three years of losing and becoming a bigger laughing stock and no where near a team that can compete in the playoffs.. is a fact!

Agree, should have been stated "ONE" of worst three year run in history. Feel better?

No its not ridiculous to say anyone that claims KP, or any other pick, was "worth it" if they go on to leave or do not contribute to a chip. Its just simple logic. I am sure that if Lebron never came back to Cavs the fans would have thought it was all "worth it" to see him win multiple chips somewhere else. If KP leaves in 2019 and he did nothing here, how was that worth it? Smh

And when did I say being a season ticket holder gave me "More insight" to the Knicks. I said that makes me want a better product on the floor and that it was not enjoyable watching a bunch of scrubs "play hard" and get their utts kicked every game. But you keep talkin.