Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:What's wrong with keeping Melo as a 28 minute 6th man?

How long are you and 1248 going to keep pretending you don't grasp the premise that 25 wins is better than 35 wins?

You think Melo adds 10 wins? Virtually every lineup was worse with him last year. He helped the tanking.

Irrelevant. I was replying to two specific people, both of whom think having Melo (in whatever roles) improves the Knicks.

Whether they are right or wrong wasn't the context of my reply.

Bonn1997 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:What's wrong with keeping Melo as a 28 minute 6th man?

How long are you and 1248 going to keep pretending you don't grasp the premise that 25 wins is better than 35 wins?

You think Melo adds 10 wins? Virtually every lineup was worse with him last year. He helped the tanking.

I agree that he made us worse. BUT he also helped KP become a jerk in front of our own eyes with his "leadership". I would take 10 extra wins to remove him from the locker room. We trade him or we buy him out, this notion of asking him to play hard on both sides of the ball is just ridiculous at this point. We have been there done that for six years. As did Karl in Denver before us

I didn't say ask him to play hard. We have to demand it. We have never made his playing time dependent on how he plays. He could screw around, nap when he wanted to, and still get 33 minutes before.

It just doesnt work. I dont want to be insulting but this is just not viable. This is completely ignoring the human, social, and status elements of this equation. Three things that are key in successful team building. Melo is not a rat on a wheel that only gets cheese if he runs really hard. This notion of making Melo play hard by reducing his role or threatening to has no basis in reality and really reflects the ignorance of anyone suggesting it. Briggs you really make yourself look foolish everything you suggest it. How does this play out in your mind? Melo just gets less minutes and waives his towel rooting for Kuz instead from the bench? You think this creates a good team culture? Please just wake up people. Maybe this works with 8 year olds playing soccer. Not so much with million dollar athletes.

No, that's not at all how you approach the situation. Admittedly, now that they've tried so hard to trade him, it would be hard to make this work. But what they needed to do earlier was talk to him about how great a player he is and how great a passer he is. He can be a gifted passer and defender and the team needs more of it. Explain (actually going through the shot charts) why those off-balance mid-range shots don't help the team as much as a great pass from him does. They need to look at the shot charts, look at the data by shot type, and discuss the things he does great as well as the things they want him to reduce. The tone of the meetings has to be - you're a gifted player but we want to use your gifts in a new way. You start that way, and if it doesn't work, eventually things have to start to become more punitive. Then you did everything you can to get him to play the right way, and there's a reasonable rationale for becoming punitive with playing time if it doesn't work out.

If he is back on the team, there is no good option. Maybe Jeff can say that he had nothing to do with the trade rumors and can still talk to him about using his gifts differently. I don't know. There are no good options if he's back. The only other option is to just let him jack up bad shots and take naps on defense. Some people think having him come off the bench for 28 mpg solves the issues. It doesn't. He'll just jack up bad shots and sleep on defense for 28 instead of 33 minutes.

And did you call me, Briggs?! You said Briggs makes himself look foolish with all the things he suggests. LOL. If you did mean me and not Briggs, the issue was just that you made a ton of incorrect assumptions about how I would go about doing this.

Hopefully you can take that positive rather than punitive approach and get Melo to play better. But I'll just add that if it does get to that punitive loss of playing time path, it's probably too late. You never know if he'll take it more seriously once he loses playing time but it's probably too late. At that point, the main goal is limiting the minutes on the court that he hurts the team and showing to the rest of the teammates that no one (no matter how big a name) can put themselves above the team. You're also hopefully increasing the likelihood that he opts out. If he does think things over once he loses minutes and changes, that's a pleasant surprise.

How do you get a content player to play hard on defense. I still think minutes are the only way to reach Melo. That is right I for one would make him ride the pine if he doesn't play hard on defense. Now wether that reaches Melo is a question for a another day.

This is the problem that the Knicks made. They should have set him straight a long time ago but they fell for that he is superstar bull. For some reason the associated Superstar to mean that he does everything well.

The Knicks direction should dictate playing time and the fact that Melo isn't part of the future should play heavily into what the Knicks do. If sitting Melo and restricting minutes for the betterment of the young player is the goal then the Knicks need to do it. If Melo doesn't like it he can wave his NTC or he can opt out if he doesn't mind it he can finish his contract out.

I don't see how this would be a problem after all he is a basketball player take away any label that is attached to him and think of him as a basketball player.

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:What's wrong with keeping Melo as a 28 minute 6th man?

How long are you and 1248 going to keep pretending you don't grasp the premise that 25 wins is better than 35 wins?

You think Melo adds 10 wins? Virtually every lineup was worse with him last year. He helped the tanking.

I agree that he made us worse. BUT he also helped KP become a jerk in front of our own eyes with his "leadership". I would take 10 extra wins to remove him from the locker room. We trade him or we buy him out, this notion of asking him to play hard on both sides of the ball is just ridiculous at this point. We have been there done that for six years. As did Karl in Denver before us

I didn't say ask him to play hard. We have to demand it. We have never made his playing time dependent on how he plays. He could screw around, nap when he wanted to, and still get 33 minutes before.

It just doesnt work. I dont want to be insulting but this is just not viable. This is completely ignoring the human, social, and status elements of this equation. Three things that are key in successful team building. Melo is not a rat on a wheel that only gets cheese if he runs really hard. This notion of making Melo play hard by reducing his role or threatening to has no basis in reality and really reflects the ignorance of anyone suggesting it. Briggs you really make yourself look foolish everything you suggest it. How does this play out in your mind? Melo just gets less minutes and waives his towel rooting for Kuz instead from the bench? You think this creates a good team culture? Please just wake up people. Maybe this works with 8 year olds playing soccer. Not so much with million dollar athletes.

No, that's not at all how you approach the situation. Admittedly, now that they've tried so hard to trade him, it would be hard to make this work. But what they needed to do earlier was talk to him about how great a player he is and how great a passer he is. He can be a gifted passer and defender and the team needs more of it. Explain (actually going through the shot charts) why those off-balance mid-range shots don't help the team as much as a great pass from him does. They need to look at the shot charts, look at the data by shot type, and discuss the things he does great as well as the things they want him to reduce. The tone of the meetings has to be - you're a gifted player but we want to use your gifts in a new way. You start that way, and if it doesn't work, eventually things have to start to become more punitive. Then you did everything you can to get him to play the right way, and there's a reasonable rationale for becoming punitive with playing time if it doesn't work out.

If he is back on the team, there is no good option. Maybe Jeff can say that he had nothing to do with the trade rumors and can still talk to him about using his gifts differently. I don't know. There are no good options if he's back. The only other option is to just let him jack up bad shots and take naps on defense. Some people think having him come off the bench for 28 mpg solves the issues. It doesn't. He'll just jack up bad shots and sleep on defense for 28 instead of 33 minutes.

And did you call me, Briggs?! You said Briggs makes himself look foolish with all the things he suggests. LOL. If you did mean me and not Briggs, the issue was just that you made a ton of incorrect assumptions about how I would go about doing this.

Bonn - What makes you think no one has ever done the above with Melo your that this time it will be different? We know NOTHING about what conversations coaches have with them in the locker room we can't assume no one has ever thought about showing him the data. In fact we can probably safely assume the opposite is true, because all teams rely on these types of analyses now

Hornacek likes bigs who can shoot from his Phoenix days.
Rotation of KP, Willy & Anderson is not great defensively (hence why is like Capela in the deal)

Start KP & Capela at 4 & 5
Back them up with Anderson & Willy.

Bonn1997 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:What's wrong with keeping Melo as a 28 minute 6th man?

How long are you and 1248 going to keep pretending you don't grasp the premise that 25 wins is better than 35 wins?

You think Melo adds 10 wins? Virtually every lineup was worse with him last year. He helped the tanking.

I agree that he made us worse. BUT he also helped KP become a jerk in front of our own eyes with his "leadership". I would take 10 extra wins to remove him from the locker room. We trade him or we buy him out, this notion of asking him to play hard on both sides of the ball is just ridiculous at this point. We have been there done that for six years. As did Karl in Denver before us

I didn't say ask him to play hard. We have to demand it. We have never made his playing time dependent on how he plays. He could screw around, nap when he wanted to, and still get 33 minutes before.

It just doesnt work. I dont want to be insulting but this is just not viable. This is completely ignoring the human, social, and status elements of this equation. Three things that are key in successful team building. Melo is not a rat on a wheel that only gets cheese if he runs really hard. This notion of making Melo play hard by reducing his role or threatening to has no basis in reality and really reflects the ignorance of anyone suggesting it. Briggs you really make yourself look foolish everything you suggest it. How does this play out in your mind? Melo just gets less minutes and waives his towel rooting for Kuz instead from the bench? You think this creates a good team culture? Please just wake up people. Maybe this works with 8 year olds playing soccer. Not so much with million dollar athletes.

No, that's not at all how you approach the situation. Admittedly, now that they've tried so hard to trade him, it would be hard to make this work. But what they needed to do earlier was talk to him about how great a player he is and how great a passer he is. He can be a gifted passer and defender and the team needs more of it. Explain (actually going through the shot charts) why those off-balance mid-range shots don't help the team as much as a great pass from him does. They need to look at the shot charts, look at the data by shot type, and discuss the things he does great as well as the things they want him to reduce. The tone of the meetings has to be - you're a gifted player but we want to use your gifts in a new way. You start that way, and if it doesn't work, eventually things have to start to become more punitive. Then you did everything you can to get him to play the right way, and there's a reasonable rationale for becoming punitive with playing time if it doesn't work out.

If he is back on the team, there is no good option. Maybe Jeff can say that he had nothing to do with the trade rumors and can still talk to him about using his gifts differently. I don't know. There are no good options if he's back. The only other option is to just let him jack up bad shots and take naps on defense. Some people think having him come off the bench for 28 mpg solves the issues. It doesn't. He'll just jack up bad shots and sleep on defense for 28 instead of 33 minutes.

And did you call me, Briggs?! You said Briggs makes himself look foolish with all the things he suggests. LOL. If you did mean me and not Briggs, the issue was just that you made a ton of incorrect assumptions about how I would go about doing this.

Bonn - What makes you think no one has ever done the above with Melo your that this time it will be different? We know NOTHING about what conversations coaches have with them in the locker room we can't assume no one has ever thought about showing him the data. In fact we can probably safely assume the opposite is true, because all teams rely on these types of analyses now

If they did it, they clearly didn't follow through with the method I laid out since it never reached the point where he lost playing time. They may have done the gentler approach first and then stopped.

Merely asking him being up the ball and pass more instead of wasting the clock led to months of sulking and insubordination under MDA. When he can pull that crap and clearly get away with it, imagine what benching would have resulted in? You are basically asking for continued dysfunction, more media driven drama about the Knicks treating poor Melo unfairly by paying him 27 million to sit on the bench. Be careful what you wish for

meloshouldgo wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:What's wrong with keeping Melo as a 28 minute 6th man?

How long are you and 1248 going to keep pretending you don't grasp the premise that 25 wins is better than 35 wins?

You think Melo adds 10 wins? Virtually every lineup was worse with him last year. He helped the tanking.

I agree that he made us worse. BUT he also helped KP become a jerk in front of our own eyes with his "leadership". I would take 10 extra wins to remove him from the locker room. We trade him or we buy him out, this notion of asking him to play hard on both sides of the ball is just ridiculous at this point. We have been there done that for six years. As did Karl in Denver before us

I didn't say ask him to play hard. We have to demand it. We have never made his playing time dependent on how he plays. He could screw around, nap when he wanted to, and still get 33 minutes before.

It just doesnt work. I dont want to be insulting but this is just not viable. This is completely ignoring the human, social, and status elements of this equation. Three things that are key in successful team building. Melo is not a rat on a wheel that only gets cheese if he runs really hard. This notion of making Melo play hard by reducing his role or threatening to has no basis in reality and really reflects the ignorance of anyone suggesting it. Briggs you really make yourself look foolish everything you suggest it. How does this play out in your mind? Melo just gets less minutes and waives his towel rooting for Kuz instead from the bench? You think this creates a good team culture? Please just wake up people. Maybe this works with 8 year olds playing soccer. Not so much with million dollar athletes.

No, that's not at all how you approach the situation. Admittedly, now that they've tried so hard to trade him, it would be hard to make this work. But what they needed to do earlier was talk to him about how great a player he is and how great a passer he is. He can be a gifted passer and defender and the team needs more of it. Explain (actually going through the shot charts) why those off-balance mid-range shots don't help the team as much as a great pass from him does. They need to look at the shot charts, look at the data by shot type, and discuss the things he does great as well as the things they want him to reduce. The tone of the meetings has to be - you're a gifted player but we want to use your gifts in a new way. You start that way, and if it doesn't work, eventually things have to start to become more punitive. Then you did everything you can to get him to play the right way, and there's a reasonable rationale for becoming punitive with playing time if it doesn't work out.

If he is back on the team, there is no good option. Maybe Jeff can say that he had nothing to do with the trade rumors and can still talk to him about using his gifts differently. I don't know. There are no good options if he's back. The only other option is to just let him jack up bad shots and take naps on defense. Some people think having him come off the bench for 28 mpg solves the issues. It doesn't. He'll just jack up bad shots and sleep on defense for 28 instead of 33 minutes.

And did you call me, Briggs?! You said Briggs makes himself look foolish with all the things he suggests. LOL. If you did mean me and not Briggs, the issue was just that you made a ton of incorrect assumptions about how I would go about doing this.

Bonn - What makes you think no one has ever done the above with Melo your that this time it will be different? We know NOTHING about what conversations coaches have with them in the locker room we can't assume no one has ever thought about showing him the data. In fact we can probably safely assume the opposite is true, because all teams rely on these types of analyses now

If they did it, they clearly didn't follow through with the method I laid out since it never reached the point where he lost playing time. They may have done the gentler approach first and then stopped.

Merely asking him being up the ball and pass more instead of wasting the clock led to months of sulking and insubordination under MDA. When he can pull that crap and clearly get away with it, imagine what benching would have resulted in? You are basically asking for continued dysfunction, more media driven drama about the Knicks treating poor Melo unfairly by paying him 27 million to sit on the bench. Be careful what you wish for

Nalod wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:What's wrong with keeping Melo as a 28 minute 6th man?

How long are you and 1248 going to keep pretending you don't grasp the premise that 25 wins is better than 35 wins?

You think Melo adds 10 wins? Virtually every lineup was worse with him last year. He helped the tanking.

I agree that he made us worse. BUT he also helped KP become a jerk in front of our own eyes with his "leadership". I would take 10 extra wins to remove him from the locker room. We trade him or we buy him out, this notion of asking him to play hard on both sides of the ball is just ridiculous at this point. We have been there done that for six years. As did Karl in Denver before us

I didn't say ask him to play hard. We have to demand it. We have never made his playing time dependent on how he plays. He could screw around, nap when he wanted to, and still get 33 minutes before.

It just doesnt work. I dont want to be insulting but this is just not viable. This is completely ignoring the human, social, and status elements of this equation. Three things that are key in successful team building. Melo is not a rat on a wheel that only gets cheese if he runs really hard. This notion of making Melo play hard by reducing his role or threatening to has no basis in reality and really reflects the ignorance of anyone suggesting it. Briggs you really make yourself look foolish everything you suggest it. How does this play out in your mind? Melo just gets less minutes and waives his towel rooting for Kuz instead from the bench? You think this creates a good team culture? Please just wake up people. Maybe this works with 8 year olds playing soccer. Not so much with million dollar athletes.

No, that's not at all how you approach the situation. Admittedly, now that they've tried so hard to trade him, it would be hard to make this work. But what they needed to do earlier was talk to him about how great a player he is and how great a passer he is. He can be a gifted passer and defender and the team needs more of it. Explain (actually going through the shot charts) why those off-balance mid-range shots don't help the team as much as a great pass from him does. They need to look at the shot charts, look at the data by shot type, and discuss the things he does great as well as the things they want him to reduce. The tone of the meetings has to be - you're a gifted player but we want to use your gifts in a new way. You start that way, and if it doesn't work, eventually things have to start to become more punitive. Then you did everything you can to get him to play the right way, and there's a reasonable rationale for becoming punitive with playing time if it doesn't work out.

If he is back on the team, there is no good option. Maybe Jeff can say that he had nothing to do with the trade rumors and can still talk to him about using his gifts differently. I don't know. There are no good options if he's back. The only other option is to just let him jack up bad shots and take naps on defense. Some people think having him come off the bench for 28 mpg solves the issues. It doesn't. He'll just jack up bad shots and sleep on defense for 28 instead of 33 minutes.

And did you call me, Briggs?! You said Briggs makes himself look foolish with all the things he suggests. LOL. If you did mean me and not Briggs, the issue was just that you made a ton of incorrect assumptions about how I would go about doing this.

so you don't think that knicks have not had this talk to Melo about shot selections, ball movement, etc?
Did not show him charts and how to make his game more efficient?

TLover wrote:If we take on Anderson & give up Noah in a deal for Melo it makes us more balanced.

Hornacek likes bigs who can shoot from his Phoenix days.
Rotation of KP, Willy & Anderson is not great defensively (hence why is like Capela in the deal)

Start KP & Capela at 4 & 5
Back them up with Anderson & Willy.

That is now $40mil in salary. That does not work.
How can Noah be in the conversation with the Rockets? Do we know Noah's health? What is different with him?
Capella is a young integral part of their team.
Rockets cannot contend without a deep roster.

knicks1248 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:What's wrong with keeping Melo as a 28 minute 6th man?

How long are you and 1248 going to keep pretending you don't grasp the premise that 25 wins is better than 35 wins?

You think Melo adds 10 wins? Virtually every lineup was worse with him last year. He helped the tanking.

I agree that he made us worse. BUT he also helped KP become a jerk in front of our own eyes with his "leadership". I would take 10 extra wins to remove him from the locker room. We trade him or we buy him out, this notion of asking him to play hard on both sides of the ball is just ridiculous at this point. We have been there done that for six years. As did Karl in Denver before us

I didn't say ask him to play hard. We have to demand it. We have never made his playing time dependent on how he plays. He could screw around, nap when he wanted to, and still get 33 minutes before.

It just doesnt work. I dont want to be insulting but this is just not viable. This is completely ignoring the human, social, and status elements of this equation. Three things that are key in successful team building. Melo is not a rat on a wheel that only gets cheese if he runs really hard. This notion of making Melo play hard by reducing his role or threatening to has no basis in reality and really reflects the ignorance of anyone suggesting it. Briggs you really make yourself look foolish everything you suggest it. How does this play out in your mind? Melo just gets less minutes and waives his towel rooting for Kuz instead from the bench? You think this creates a good team culture? Please just wake up people. Maybe this works with 8 year olds playing soccer. Not so much with million dollar athletes.

No, that's not at all how you approach the situation. Admittedly, now that they've tried so hard to trade him, it would be hard to make this work. But what they needed to do earlier was talk to him about how great a player he is and how great a passer he is. He can be a gifted passer and defender and the team needs more of it. Explain (actually going through the shot charts) why those off-balance mid-range shots don't help the team as much as a great pass from him does. They need to look at the shot charts, look at the data by shot type, and discuss the things he does great as well as the things they want him to reduce. The tone of the meetings has to be - you're a gifted player but we want to use your gifts in a new way. You start that way, and if it doesn't work, eventually things have to start to become more punitive. Then you did everything you can to get him to play the right way, and there's a reasonable rationale for becoming punitive with playing time if it doesn't work out.

If he is back on the team, there is no good option. Maybe Jeff can say that he had nothing to do with the trade rumors and can still talk to him about using his gifts differently. I don't know. There are no good options if he's back. The only other option is to just let him jack up bad shots and take naps on defense. Some people think having him come off the bench for 28 mpg solves the issues. It doesn't. He'll just jack up bad shots and sleep on defense for 28 instead of 33 minutes.

And did you call me, Briggs?! You said Briggs makes himself look foolish with all the things he suggests. LOL. If you did mean me and not Briggs, the issue was just that you made a ton of incorrect assumptions about how I would go about doing this.

so you don't think that knicks have not had this talk to Melo about shot selections, ball movement, etc?
Did not show him charts and how to make his game more efficient?

so when he lead the team in assist the yr before last, were you still saying he doesn't pass enough, or I guess it comes down to "what have you done for me lately"

Hows the team doing with melo the last 7 years? He is and has been our best player. Hows it goink? Dude is 33, we are rebuilding with yoot and its not about him anymore, its about the team.
Its time to move on. Season before last we had Jose and Grant as PG's. Melo is an all star, all good stuff, but how is the team doing with him?
Im not saying its his "Fault", or whose to blame. Look at our roster, we own our own picks, and look at the potential. He has two years on his contract, he needs the ball to be wonderful but he stops the ball to do what he does best.
Playoff teams need what he does. We not there. Time to move on......

knicks1248 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:What's wrong with keeping Melo as a 28 minute 6th man?

How long are you and 1248 going to keep pretending you don't grasp the premise that 25 wins is better than 35 wins?

You think Melo adds 10 wins? Virtually every lineup was worse with him last year. He helped the tanking.

I agree that he made us worse. BUT he also helped KP become a jerk in front of our own eyes with his "leadership". I would take 10 extra wins to remove him from the locker room. We trade him or we buy him out, this notion of asking him to play hard on both sides of the ball is just ridiculous at this point. We have been there done that for six years. As did Karl in Denver before us

I didn't say ask him to play hard. We have to demand it. We have never made his playing time dependent on how he plays. He could screw around, nap when he wanted to, and still get 33 minutes before.

It just doesnt work. I dont want to be insulting but this is just not viable. This is completely ignoring the human, social, and status elements of this equation. Three things that are key in successful team building. Melo is not a rat on a wheel that only gets cheese if he runs really hard. This notion of making Melo play hard by reducing his role or threatening to has no basis in reality and really reflects the ignorance of anyone suggesting it. Briggs you really make yourself look foolish everything you suggest it. How does this play out in your mind? Melo just gets less minutes and waives his towel rooting for Kuz instead from the bench? You think this creates a good team culture? Please just wake up people. Maybe this works with 8 year olds playing soccer. Not so much with million dollar athletes.

+1000

explain how your starting kuz or lance ahead of an all star..it's the most ridiculous thing I've heard yet

Or Timmy at SF. What if the team consistently plays better with that lineup than with Melo? You want the team to lose just because it's important that a guy whose made all-star appearances gets his playing time? Are you a Melo fan or a Knicks fan? Again, the hope is that it never reaches that point.

We have won like 2% of our games without melo, in fact we have the worse record in the NBA for the last 3 yrs without melo.

THJ does not pass the ball more than melo, does not draw double teams, and is a below avg defender
KUZ is arguable the worse defender on the team, and super inconsistent offensively
Lance cant score, and is inconsistent on defense.

That depends on which season you look at. There have been years where the team was around .500 without Melo. And none of this addresses my question about what to do if the team is better off with Timmy at SF.

we were never a 500 team without melo under the phil Jackson *error

And if THJ is playing well and were winning, then you move him to PF, there is no way that I'm having melo come off the bench

1)JH doesn't have the balls, or experience to ask melo to come off the bench
2)when a reporter asked melo if he would do that, his response was, NEXT question
3)Until you have someone flat out better, it's not a viable option