fishmike wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Vmart wrote:

Sinix wrote:The Knicks are a cluster f*** and one of, if not, the most hopeless NBA franchise right now.

What world are you living in where the Knicks are making a comeback? This offseason has been an utter disaster.

The Knicks took a step back culture wise, getting Dolan back into the mix, making 'win now' moves while not even being a playoff club. The negative culture is tied with players like Melo, which his play style is being passed down to the young players because we've failed to turn the page on him in a timely fashion.

The Knicks did almost everything wrong they could of done wrong. I don't see any way you can turn this into a comeback story. The more likely story is no playoffs for the foreseeable future in an epicly weak conference, not high enough draft picks, cap tied up for years and the worst management culture because of Dolan.

As long as one move isn't made the Knicks will continue to go down the wrong path. I like the youth movement but I feel it is and will be corrupted by an ego that only wants thing his way.

There's is no one on these boards that think any move the knicks have made so far is a win now move.

what your saying in (so many words) is that the knicks should get rid of your favorite whipping boy no matter the cost, even if it means crippling the franchise finacially for the next 3 to 4 yrs.

Melo didn't create the current culture, phil did by his actions and the way he handle things in a very unprofessional and in experience way, your smart enough to know that. The knicks as a whole have handle a lot of things wrong since the start of last off season..

How about if Melo actually passed the ball as he promised and gave a FLIP about defense and running the floor as Jeff asked him to do? How about if Melo didn't start a near Mutiny but rather took the side of the Coach in a positive way like most REAL team leaders do? Phil would not have had to say anything if Melo was doing what he was supposed to be doing. People keep making excuses for Melo and bashing Phil, but what exactly was it that Phil was asking?

"He can play that role that Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant played," Jackson said. "That's a perfect spot for him, to be in that isolated position on the weak side. Because it's an overload offense and there's a weak-side man that always has an advantage if the ball is swung.
"Carmelo, a lot of times, wants to hold the ball longer than -- we have a rule, if you hold a pass two seconds, you benefit the defense. So he has a little bit of a tendency to hold the ball for three, four, five seconds, then everybody comes to a stop. That is one of the things we work with. But he has adjusted to it, he knows what it can do and he's willing to see its success."

"Carmelo's genuinely a solid person, a citizen, I think," Jackson said. "He has good intentions. I think some of the things that come along with him, I always say I can go back to [Syracuse coach Jim] Boeheim and say that was the zone that he played in college. But that's just a joke I have with him. The aspect of learning in the NBA and developing habits become entrenched, and sometimes you have to break those habits to change your manner of playing, and I think that's one of the things he's had to do with this new group of guys. It's a little bit different. He doesn't have sole possession of the offense. There are other people that are involved in the offense, and he embraces that. But then you still have habits you have to break, and I think that's one of the things.

Defensively, we've talked to him a lot about movement and that aspect of -- we're now into high-performance things, where we have cameras that can legislate or watch movement on the court all the time -- each have, you can go back and check that. We're trying to get him to get more active as a defensive player. That's one of the things that I think is noticeable, that he has changed. And we're liking that."

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/phil-jackson-carmelo-anthony-can-play-jordan-kobe-role-but-holds-ball-too-long/

Did Melo start a mutiny? Was it Jeff or Rambis that he had the issue with when he had the locker room blowup? The only thing I remember coming out about Melo being upset was when Jeff said the team wasn't competing for a playoff spot and were going to work on player development. I can't imagine that that was what was planned for year three of Phil. At some point when things don't work you need to try something else, not try the same thing harder. Melo was already traded by Phil if Doc didn't back out. Not sure when it is ok for players to get frustrated when winning just isnt happening but year three seems to show patience and restraint.

I think it will be very interesting to see how guys respond to Jeff at training camp. KP, Willy, Melo, Lee, all publicly expressed frustration or supported teammates when they did. Jeff/Rambis may not have a long shelf life. I think that locker room was pretty toxic and I don't think moving Melo just fixes it.

It may not be fair to blame that all on Melo, but it existed because of him. I totally disagree, he being gone (and Phil) completely changes the locker room in every way.

It starts on the court. Jeff's hands were tied. He tried to make it work under the parameters he was given. Starting with a system pushed by the team president and a star veteran player with an NTC that plays a certain way and has a very strong locker room presence. Think about the day2day of coaching an NBA team and what that consists of. How do you go over game tape and push defense without constantly calling out your star player (Who ranked #420 defensively)? You cant. So you have to avoid and and work on better execution of other areas, else you come off as blaming Melo and he turns the locker room against you.

Remove Melo and what are you left with?

And here is why Sinix is dead wrong. He's just a pissy someone pooped in my cocoa puffs kind of guy anyway, but he's wrong. Despite Phil's phuckups he gave us what we needed... some stinky years, some young players worth building around and a long leash for the next guy with a plan.
As a build around core KP/Willy/Frank/THjr is a great start. KP is easily one of the NBA's best prospects. I always ask the same question.. who are the NBA's best players in rookie contracts?
1) KAT
2) KP
3) hodgepodge

Willy is a nice mix of Horford and Gasol. He's got plenty to learn but has the makings of a high end player at the 5. If we can leave KP at the 4 he could possibly becomes the best NBA help defender... ever. THjr really made nice strides. His inside outside game really blossomed last year and of course you have young Frank who is good at everything. What would be really key is if another young guy pops. I think Dotson has a great shot, but 2nd rounders are 2nd rounders. Seeing is believing. Maybe Ron Baker takes a big step forward and hits the 3 like he did @ Wichita. People forget a big part of the reason we got off to such a good start during KP's rookie season was Langston Galloway came out playing great D and hitting every 3 he made. It wasnt sustainable but thats not the point. The point was the impact. Can Ron Baker mimic that?

CrushAlot wrote:

fishmike wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Vmart wrote:

Sinix wrote:The Knicks are a cluster f*** and one of, if not, the most hopeless NBA franchise right now.

What world are you living in where the Knicks are making a comeback? This offseason has been an utter disaster.

The Knicks took a step back culture wise, getting Dolan back into the mix, making 'win now' moves while not even being a playoff club. The negative culture is tied with players like Melo, which his play style is being passed down to the young players because we've failed to turn the page on him in a timely fashion.

The Knicks did almost everything wrong they could of done wrong. I don't see any way you can turn this into a comeback story. The more likely story is no playoffs for the foreseeable future in an epicly weak conference, not high enough draft picks, cap tied up for years and the worst management culture because of Dolan.

As long as one move isn't made the Knicks will continue to go down the wrong path. I like the youth movement but I feel it is and will be corrupted by an ego that only wants thing his way.

There's is no one on these boards that think any move the knicks have made so far is a win now move.

what your saying in (so many words) is that the knicks should get rid of your favorite whipping boy no matter the cost, even if it means crippling the franchise finacially for the next 3 to 4 yrs.

Melo didn't create the current culture, phil did by his actions and the way he handle things in a very unprofessional and in experience way, your smart enough to know that. The knicks as a whole have handle a lot of things wrong since the start of last off season..

How about if Melo actually passed the ball as he promised and gave a FLIP about defense and running the floor as Jeff asked him to do? How about if Melo didn't start a near Mutiny but rather took the side of the Coach in a positive way like most REAL team leaders do? Phil would not have had to say anything if Melo was doing what he was supposed to be doing. People keep making excuses for Melo and bashing Phil, but what exactly was it that Phil was asking?

"He can play that role that Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant played," Jackson said. "That's a perfect spot for him, to be in that isolated position on the weak side. Because it's an overload offense and there's a weak-side man that always has an advantage if the ball is swung.
"Carmelo, a lot of times, wants to hold the ball longer than -- we have a rule, if you hold a pass two seconds, you benefit the defense. So he has a little bit of a tendency to hold the ball for three, four, five seconds, then everybody comes to a stop. That is one of the things we work with. But he has adjusted to it, he knows what it can do and he's willing to see its success."

"Carmelo's genuinely a solid person, a citizen, I think," Jackson said. "He has good intentions. I think some of the things that come along with him, I always say I can go back to [Syracuse coach Jim] Boeheim and say that was the zone that he played in college. But that's just a joke I have with him. The aspect of learning in the NBA and developing habits become entrenched, and sometimes you have to break those habits to change your manner of playing, and I think that's one of the things he's had to do with this new group of guys. It's a little bit different. He doesn't have sole possession of the offense. There are other people that are involved in the offense, and he embraces that. But then you still have habits you have to break, and I think that's one of the things.

Defensively, we've talked to him a lot about movement and that aspect of -- we're now into high-performance things, where we have cameras that can legislate or watch movement on the court all the time -- each have, you can go back and check that. We're trying to get him to get more active as a defensive player. That's one of the things that I think is noticeable, that he has changed. And we're liking that."

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/phil-jackson-carmelo-anthony-can-play-jordan-kobe-role-but-holds-ball-too-long/

Did Melo start a mutiny? Was it Jeff or Rambis that he had the issue with when he had the locker room blowup? The only thing I remember coming out about Melo being upset was when Jeff said the team wasn't competing for a playoff spot and were going to work on player development. I can't imagine that that was what was planned for year three of Phil. At some point when things don't work you need to try something else, not try the same thing harder. Melo was already traded by Phil if Doc didn't back out. Not sure when it is ok for players to get frustrated when winning just isnt happening but year three seems to show patience and restraint.

I think it will be very interesting to see how guys respond to Jeff at training camp. KP, Willy, Melo, Lee, all publicly expressed frustration or supported teammates when they did. Jeff/Rambis may not have a long shelf life. I think that locker room was pretty toxic and I don't think moving Melo just fixes it.

It may not be fair to blame that all on Melo, but it existed because of him. I totally disagree, he being gone (and Phil) completely changes the locker room in every way.

It starts on the court. Jeff's hands were tied. He tried to make it work under the parameters he was given. Starting with a system pushed by the team president and a star veteran player with an NTC that plays a certain way and has a very strong locker room presence. Think about the day2day of coaching an NBA team and what that consists of. How do you go over game tape and push defense without constantly calling out your star player (Who ranked #420 defensively)? You cant. So you have to avoid and and work on better execution of other areas, else you come off as blaming Melo and he turns the locker room against you.

Remove Melo and what are you left with?

And here is why Sinix is dead wrong. He's just a pissy someone pooped in my cocoa puffs kind of guy anyway, but he's wrong. Despite Phil's phuckups he gave us what we needed... some stinky years, some young players worth building around and a long leash for the next guy with a plan.
As a build around core KP/Willy/Frank/THjr is a great start. KP is easily one of the NBA's best prospects. I always ask the same question.. who are the NBA's best players in rookie contracts?
1) KAT
2) KP
3) hodgepodge

Willy is a nice mix of Horford and Gasol. He's got plenty to learn but has the makings of a high end player at the 5. If we can leave KP at the 4 he could possibly becomes the best NBA help defender... ever. THjr really made nice strides. His inside outside game really blossomed last year and of course you have young Frank who is good at everything. What would be really key is if another young guy pops. I think Dotson has a great shot, but 2nd rounders are 2nd rounders. Seeing is believing. Maybe Ron Baker takes a big step forward and hits the 3 like he did @ Wichita. People forget a big part of the reason we got off to such a good start during KP's rookie season was Langston Galloway came out playing great D and hitting every 3 he made. It wasnt sustainable but thats not the point. The point was the impact. Can Ron Baker mimic that?

I think minimally Rambis needs to be let go or reassigned to help with the locker room. I think the conflicts between players and coaches is more complex than Phil/Melo. Jeff and KP were not communicating with each other for the first part of the summer and there has been talk of Jeff having to mend his relationship with KP. I believe Rosen wrote a piece where he talked about Rambis's struggles and frustrations with modern day players. Does that guy need to be on the bench? His best friend snt the pres anymore.

Jeff knows Rambis well. Jeff is smart. He will have a plan as to what coaches will do what. Whats important is he has the freedom and support to do what he wants on both sides of the ball. Most of those guys are good locker room guys.

nixluva wrote:

Sinix wrote:

nixluva wrote:I'm sorry but the Knicks are in the best starting situation they've been in over the last 17 years. The Media Hyped issues are not enough to cancel out the positive things going for this franchise.

Adding Scott Perry was a VERY good move. Some are already looking for some negative angle to take so they can kick dirt on this but it's a POSITIVE move for the franchise.

Not many comment on it but there is going to be some continuity with Jeff and a good number of players returning for next season.

The roster is off to a great start. This isn't a bare Cupboard that we're starting with. It's still early so we don't know yet how these players will develop but it's surely not starting from scratch. Can't wait for Training Camp as there should be some good invites to take a look at.

TEAM ROSTER
NO.	NAME	                POS	AGE	HT	WT	
17	Frank Ntilikina	        G	18	6-5	190	 
--	Ognjen Jaramaz	        PG	21	6-4	194	 	 
6	Kristaps Porzingis	PF	21	7-3	240	
99	Luke Kornet	        PF	22	7-1	250		 
--	Damyean Dotson	        SG	23	6-5	210	
14	Willy Hernangomez	C	23	6-11	240	
31	Ron Baker	        SG	24	6-4	220	
4	Chasson Randle	        PG	24	6-2	185	
10	Tim Hardaway Jr.	SG	25	6-6	205	
91	Mindaugas Kuzminskas	F	27	6-9	215	
9	Kyle O'Quinn	        C	27	6-10	250	

Some players on the roster may be traded and we at least have the possibility of assets coming back. Having all of our 1st rd picks is a good thing. Until we see what happens with Melo and other possible trades we can't say how much better things will get but from this current point things are much more positive than in the past.

You're just setting yourself up for a hard fall. There's nothing optimistic about any part of this team.

The offense.
The defense.
The rebounding.
The ball movement.
The locker room culture.
The management culture.
The cap space.
Our future prospective draft positions.

Below average to disastrous in each of these categories. The only thing the Knicks have that is above average is shooters imo but how good are shooters when you don't have the ball movement to put them in position?

After 10 or so games after the season starts the doom sets in that this is the team, filled with horrendously ugly basketball, and there will be no way to change it for years until Porzingis eventually leaves.

OK this PESSIMISM is just WAY overstated.

The team will be MUCH different when we're going with youth rather than Old Vets. This notion that this team is lost doesn't track with what we've already seen from these young core players once they got a chance to play and develop. The Offense and Defense will be much more team oriented so the Ball and Player Movement will IMPROVE as we move forward. Not sure why you think this would be a negative.

The Locker room Culture will also be an improvement minus SELFISH guys with bad attitudes. Knicks have done a good job of bringing in young men with good character and dispositions. I don't see this as a major issue going forward.

THe Management team is looking MUCH more in sync IMO. Phil was a much more grumpy and outspoken leader in the Front Office. The guys left are not guys that make waves. Again I don't know what you're basing your opinion on. Certainly not the personalities of the men left in the Front Office.

The cap situation is only temporarily tight. They can address this with proper trades. This isn't a team looking to make big Free Agent Splashes at this point anyway. There's no long term cap problem.

The draft is another thing altogether. You can't expect to get top picks indefinitely. There could be a pick or two added in trades but we'll have to wait and see. The key at this point is making smart use of draft picks and UDFA's and developing the young talent properly.

This viewpoint is delusional. Nothing's been addresssed with how backwards this franchise is run.

The locker room will be worse. It will be better for 10 games without Phil then the team will have to come to terms with the fact that they are losers that won't make the playoffs in the east, they play ugly ball and there will be no cap flexibility for years.

Management is like a zoo with Dolan and corporate interests involved.

Porzingis is a great young player but what happens if he continues to stagnate like last season? What happens if Nilitinka busts. One of these two things will most likely happen.

See, most teams that get younger do so by packing in more talent and retaining cap flexibility. The Knicks overextended themselves for young mediocre talent like THjr.

I would put money on it any day this upcoming season is going to be a disaster.

Sinix wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Sinix wrote:

nixluva wrote:I'm sorry but the Knicks are in the best starting situation they've been in over the last 17 years. The Media Hyped issues are not enough to cancel out the positive things going for this franchise.

Adding Scott Perry was a VERY good move. Some are already looking for some negative angle to take so they can kick dirt on this but it's a POSITIVE move for the franchise.

Not many comment on it but there is going to be some continuity with Jeff and a good number of players returning for next season.

The roster is off to a great start. This isn't a bare Cupboard that we're starting with. It's still early so we don't know yet how these players will develop but it's surely not starting from scratch. Can't wait for Training Camp as there should be some good invites to take a look at.

TEAM ROSTER
NO.	NAME	                POS	AGE	HT	WT	
17	Frank Ntilikina	        G	18	6-5	190	 
--	Ognjen Jaramaz	        PG	21	6-4	194	 	 
6	Kristaps Porzingis	PF	21	7-3	240	
99	Luke Kornet	        PF	22	7-1	250		 
--	Damyean Dotson	        SG	23	6-5	210	
14	Willy Hernangomez	C	23	6-11	240	
31	Ron Baker	        SG	24	6-4	220	
4	Chasson Randle	        PG	24	6-2	185	
10	Tim Hardaway Jr.	SG	25	6-6	205	
91	Mindaugas Kuzminskas	F	27	6-9	215	
9	Kyle O'Quinn	        C	27	6-10	250	

Some players on the roster may be traded and we at least have the possibility of assets coming back. Having all of our 1st rd picks is a good thing. Until we see what happens with Melo and other possible trades we can't say how much better things will get but from this current point things are much more positive than in the past.

You're just setting yourself up for a hard fall. There's nothing optimistic about any part of this team.

The offense.
The defense.
The rebounding.
The ball movement.
The locker room culture.
The management culture.
The cap space.
Our future prospective draft positions.

Below average to disastrous in each of these categories. The only thing the Knicks have that is above average is shooters imo but how good are shooters when you don't have the ball movement to put them in position?

After 10 or so games after the season starts the doom sets in that this is the team, filled with horrendously ugly basketball, and there will be no way to change it for years until Porzingis eventually leaves.

OK this PESSIMISM is just WAY overstated.

The team will be MUCH different when we're going with youth rather than Old Vets. This notion that this team is lost doesn't track with what we've already seen from these young core players once they got a chance to play and develop. The Offense and Defense will be much more team oriented so the Ball and Player Movement will IMPROVE as we move forward. Not sure why you think this would be a negative.

The Locker room Culture will also be an improvement minus SELFISH guys with bad attitudes. Knicks have done a good job of bringing in young men with good character and dispositions. I don't see this as a major issue going forward.

THe Management team is looking MUCH more in sync IMO. Phil was a much more grumpy and outspoken leader in the Front Office. The guys left are not guys that make waves. Again I don't know what you're basing your opinion on. Certainly not the personalities of the men left in the Front Office.

The cap situation is only temporarily tight. They can address this with proper trades. This isn't a team looking to make big Free Agent Splashes at this point anyway. There's no long term cap problem.

The draft is another thing altogether. You can't expect to get top picks indefinitely. There could be a pick or two added in trades but we'll have to wait and see. The key at this point is making smart use of draft picks and UDFA's and developing the young talent properly.

This viewpoint is delusional. Nothing's been addresssed with how backwards this franchise is run.

The locker room will be worse. It will be better for 10 games without Phil then the team will have to come to terms with the fact that they are losers that won't make the playoffs in the east, they play ugly ball and there will be no cap flexibility for years.

Management is like a zoo with Dolan and corporate interests involved.

Porzingis is a great young player but what happens if he continues to stagnate like last season? What happens if Nilitinka busts. One of these two things will most likely happen.

See, most teams that get younger do so by packing in more talent and retaining cap flexibility. The Knicks overextended themselves for young mediocre talent like THjr.

I would put money on it any day this upcoming season is going to be a disaster.

How in the WORLD would the Locker room be worse? These kids will compete every night and give themselves a chance to win. If they lose they'll be doing it honestly. They won't be an underachieving group of highly paid Vets!!! The young Knicks will be a developing team learning how to win together. You can have player development and still lose games. It's all in HOW you're losing. If the team is doing the right things and playing hard but still lose that's an acceptable circumstance for a young developing roster.

KP, Nitty, Willy, THJ etc. will have their ups and downs as they develop. If a player doesn't reach his potential this team is still set up to add talent thru the draft. You have to accept that not all of your picks will pan out. That said I don't expect such disasters as you're speculating about.

I'll take your bet that this team WON'T be a disaster but you'd have to define what you think would constitute a disaster! It can't just be a losing record since that's the most easily predictable outcome for a rebuilding team.

Sinix wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Sinix wrote:

nixluva wrote:I'm sorry but the Knicks are in the best starting situation they've been in over the last 17 years. The Media Hyped issues are not enough to cancel out the positive things going for this franchise.

Adding Scott Perry was a VERY good move. Some are already looking for some negative angle to take so they can kick dirt on this but it's a POSITIVE move for the franchise.

Not many comment on it but there is going to be some continuity with Jeff and a good number of players returning for next season.

The roster is off to a great start. This isn't a bare Cupboard that we're starting with. It's still early so we don't know yet how these players will develop but it's surely not starting from scratch. Can't wait for Training Camp as there should be some good invites to take a look at.

TEAM ROSTER
NO.	NAME	                POS	AGE	HT	WT	
17	Frank Ntilikina	        G	18	6-5	190	 
--	Ognjen Jaramaz	        PG	21	6-4	194	 	 
6	Kristaps Porzingis	PF	21	7-3	240	
99	Luke Kornet	        PF	22	7-1	250		 
--	Damyean Dotson	        SG	23	6-5	210	
14	Willy Hernangomez	C	23	6-11	240	
31	Ron Baker	        SG	24	6-4	220	
4	Chasson Randle	        PG	24	6-2	185	
10	Tim Hardaway Jr.	SG	25	6-6	205	
91	Mindaugas Kuzminskas	F	27	6-9	215	
9	Kyle O'Quinn	        C	27	6-10	250	

Some players on the roster may be traded and we at least have the possibility of assets coming back. Having all of our 1st rd picks is a good thing. Until we see what happens with Melo and other possible trades we can't say how much better things will get but from this current point things are much more positive than in the past.

You're just setting yourself up for a hard fall. There's nothing optimistic about any part of this team.

The offense.
The defense.
The rebounding.
The ball movement.
The locker room culture.
The management culture.
The cap space.
Our future prospective draft positions.

Below average to disastrous in each of these categories. The only thing the Knicks have that is above average is shooters imo but how good are shooters when you don't have the ball movement to put them in position?

After 10 or so games after the season starts the doom sets in that this is the team, filled with horrendously ugly basketball, and there will be no way to change it for years until Porzingis eventually leaves.

OK this PESSIMISM is just WAY overstated.

The team will be MUCH different when we're going with youth rather than Old Vets. This notion that this team is lost doesn't track with what we've already seen from these young core players once they got a chance to play and develop. The Offense and Defense will be much more team oriented so the Ball and Player Movement will IMPROVE as we move forward. Not sure why you think this would be a negative.

The Locker room Culture will also be an improvement minus SELFISH guys with bad attitudes. Knicks have done a good job of bringing in young men with good character and dispositions. I don't see this as a major issue going forward.

THe Management team is looking MUCH more in sync IMO. Phil was a much more grumpy and outspoken leader in the Front Office. The guys left are not guys that make waves. Again I don't know what you're basing your opinion on. Certainly not the personalities of the men left in the Front Office.

The cap situation is only temporarily tight. They can address this with proper trades. This isn't a team looking to make big Free Agent Splashes at this point anyway. There's no long term cap problem.

The draft is another thing altogether. You can't expect to get top picks indefinitely. There could be a pick or two added in trades but we'll have to wait and see. The key at this point is making smart use of draft picks and UDFA's and developing the young talent properly.

This viewpoint is delusional. Nothing's been addresssed with how backwards this franchise is run.

The locker room will be worse. It will be better for 10 games without Phil then the team will have to come to terms with the fact that they are losers that won't make the playoffs in the east, they play ugly ball and there will be no cap flexibility for years.

Management is like a zoo with Dolan and corporate interests involved.

Porzingis is a great young player but what happens if he continues to stagnate like last season? What happens if Nilitinka busts. One of these two things will most likely happen.

See, most teams that get younger do so by packing in more talent and retaining cap flexibility. The Knicks overextended themselves for young mediocre talent like THjr.

I would put money on it any day this upcoming season is going to be a disaster.

I have to agree that the locker room and practice will be worse without Phil Jackson around. Baker quietly stated during a summer league half-time the kind of relationship that was available to players who sought it out.

And it was a nice tip of the hat that Mills gave Phil during his presser with Perry. Make no mistake about it, Jax put a stamp and legacy on this team that will be largely responsible for its next generation and for a superior front-office he left behind.

EnySpree wrote:This thread was intended to talk about all the original teams all making a comeback. All the Doom and Gloom guys up in the Forum decided to make this into a Melo, f*** the Knicks, the dolan is stupid, never will get better, backwards management and various other bull****. Just shows what dine of toy rally care about. Pushing hate agendas to break the spirits of everyone here.

No one mention of Philly, Boston, the Lakers or anyone else... bunch of miserable souls feeding off the negativity like vampires.

fwk00 wrote:

Sinix wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Sinix wrote:

nixluva wrote:I'm sorry but the Knicks are in the best starting situation they've been in over the last 17 years. The Media Hyped issues are not enough to cancel out the positive things going for this franchise.

Adding Scott Perry was a VERY good move. Some are already looking for some negative angle to take so they can kick dirt on this but it's a POSITIVE move for the franchise.

Not many comment on it but there is going to be some continuity with Jeff and a good number of players returning for next season.

The roster is off to a great start. This isn't a bare Cupboard that we're starting with. It's still early so we don't know yet how these players will develop but it's surely not starting from scratch. Can't wait for Training Camp as there should be some good invites to take a look at.

TEAM ROSTER
NO.	NAME	                POS	AGE	HT	WT	
17	Frank Ntilikina	        G	18	6-5	190	 
--	Ognjen Jaramaz	        PG	21	6-4	194	 	 
6	Kristaps Porzingis	PF	21	7-3	240	
99	Luke Kornet	        PF	22	7-1	250		 
--	Damyean Dotson	        SG	23	6-5	210	
14	Willy Hernangomez	C	23	6-11	240	
31	Ron Baker	        SG	24	6-4	220	
4	Chasson Randle	        PG	24	6-2	185	
10	Tim Hardaway Jr.	SG	25	6-6	205	
91	Mindaugas Kuzminskas	F	27	6-9	215	
9	Kyle O'Quinn	        C	27	6-10	250	

Some players on the roster may be traded and we at least have the possibility of assets coming back. Having all of our 1st rd picks is a good thing. Until we see what happens with Melo and other possible trades we can't say how much better things will get but from this current point things are much more positive than in the past.

You're just setting yourself up for a hard fall. There's nothing optimistic about any part of this team.

The offense.
The defense.
The rebounding.
The ball movement.
The locker room culture.
The management culture.
The cap space.
Our future prospective draft positions.

Below average to disastrous in each of these categories. The only thing the Knicks have that is above average is shooters imo but how good are shooters when you don't have the ball movement to put them in position?

After 10 or so games after the season starts the doom sets in that this is the team, filled with horrendously ugly basketball, and there will be no way to change it for years until Porzingis eventually leaves.

OK this PESSIMISM is just WAY overstated.

The team will be MUCH different when we're going with youth rather than Old Vets. This notion that this team is lost doesn't track with what we've already seen from these young core players once they got a chance to play and develop. The Offense and Defense will be much more team oriented so the Ball and Player Movement will IMPROVE as we move forward. Not sure why you think this would be a negative.

The Locker room Culture will also be an improvement minus SELFISH guys with bad attitudes. Knicks have done a good job of bringing in young men with good character and dispositions. I don't see this as a major issue going forward.

THe Management team is looking MUCH more in sync IMO. Phil was a much more grumpy and outspoken leader in the Front Office. The guys left are not guys that make waves. Again I don't know what you're basing your opinion on. Certainly not the personalities of the men left in the Front Office.

The cap situation is only temporarily tight. They can address this with proper trades. This isn't a team looking to make big Free Agent Splashes at this point anyway. There's no long term cap problem.

The draft is another thing altogether. You can't expect to get top picks indefinitely. There could be a pick or two added in trades but we'll have to wait and see. The key at this point is making smart use of draft picks and UDFA's and developing the young talent properly.

This viewpoint is delusional. Nothing's been addresssed with how backwards this franchise is run.

The locker room will be worse. It will be better for 10 games without Phil then the team will have to come to terms with the fact that they are losers that won't make the playoffs in the east, they play ugly ball and there will be no cap flexibility for years.

Management is like a zoo with Dolan and corporate interests involved.

Porzingis is a great young player but what happens if he continues to stagnate like last season? What happens if Nilitinka busts. One of these two things will most likely happen.

See, most teams that get younger do so by packing in more talent and retaining cap flexibility. The Knicks overextended themselves for young mediocre talent like THjr.

I would put money on it any day this upcoming season is going to be a disaster.

I have to agree that the locker room and practice will be worse without Phil Jackson around. Baker quietly stated during a summer league half-time the kind of relationship that was available to players who sought it out.

And it was a nice tip of the hat that Mills gave Phil during his presser with Perry. Make no mistake about it, Jax put a stamp and legacy on this team that will be largely responsible for its next generation and for a superior front-office he left behind.

Chandler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

fishmike wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Vmart wrote:

Sinix wrote:The Knicks are a cluster f*** and one of, if not, the most hopeless NBA franchise right now.

What world are you living in where the Knicks are making a comeback? This offseason has been an utter disaster.

The Knicks took a step back culture wise, getting Dolan back into the mix, making 'win now' moves while not even being a playoff club. The negative culture is tied with players like Melo, which his play style is being passed down to the young players because we've failed to turn the page on him in a timely fashion.

The Knicks did almost everything wrong they could of done wrong. I don't see any way you can turn this into a comeback story. The more likely story is no playoffs for the foreseeable future in an epicly weak conference, not high enough draft picks, cap tied up for years and the worst management culture because of Dolan.

As long as one move isn't made the Knicks will continue to go down the wrong path. I like the youth movement but I feel it is and will be corrupted by an ego that only wants thing his way.

There's is no one on these boards that think any move the knicks have made so far is a win now move.

what your saying in (so many words) is that the knicks should get rid of your favorite whipping boy no matter the cost, even if it means crippling the franchise finacially for the next 3 to 4 yrs.

Melo didn't create the current culture, phil did by his actions and the way he handle things in a very unprofessional and in experience way, your smart enough to know that. The knicks as a whole have handle a lot of things wrong since the start of last off season..

How about if Melo actually passed the ball as he promised and gave a FLIP about defense and running the floor as Jeff asked him to do? How about if Melo didn't start a near Mutiny but rather took the side of the Coach in a positive way like most REAL team leaders do? Phil would not have had to say anything if Melo was doing what he was supposed to be doing. People keep making excuses for Melo and bashing Phil, but what exactly was it that Phil was asking?

"He can play that role that Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant played," Jackson said. "That's a perfect spot for him, to be in that isolated position on the weak side. Because it's an overload offense and there's a weak-side man that always has an advantage if the ball is swung.
"Carmelo, a lot of times, wants to hold the ball longer than -- we have a rule, if you hold a pass two seconds, you benefit the defense. So he has a little bit of a tendency to hold the ball for three, four, five seconds, then everybody comes to a stop. That is one of the things we work with. But he has adjusted to it, he knows what it can do and he's willing to see its success."

"Carmelo's genuinely a solid person, a citizen, I think," Jackson said. "He has good intentions. I think some of the things that come along with him, I always say I can go back to [Syracuse coach Jim] Boeheim and say that was the zone that he played in college. But that's just a joke I have with him. The aspect of learning in the NBA and developing habits become entrenched, and sometimes you have to break those habits to change your manner of playing, and I think that's one of the things he's had to do with this new group of guys. It's a little bit different. He doesn't have sole possession of the offense. There are other people that are involved in the offense, and he embraces that. But then you still have habits you have to break, and I think that's one of the things.

Defensively, we've talked to him a lot about movement and that aspect of -- we're now into high-performance things, where we have cameras that can legislate or watch movement on the court all the time -- each have, you can go back and check that. We're trying to get him to get more active as a defensive player. That's one of the things that I think is noticeable, that he has changed. And we're liking that."

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/phil-jackson-carmelo-anthony-can-play-jordan-kobe-role-but-holds-ball-too-long/

Did Melo start a mutiny? Was it Jeff or Rambis that he had the issue with when he had the locker room blowup? The only thing I remember coming out about Melo being upset was when Jeff said the team wasn't competing for a playoff spot and were going to work on player development. I can't imagine that that was what was planned for year three of Phil. At some point when things don't work you need to try something else, not try the same thing harder. Melo was already traded by Phil if Doc didn't back out. Not sure when it is ok for players to get frustrated when winning just isnt happening but year three seems to show patience and restraint.

I think it will be very interesting to see how guys respond to Jeff at training camp. KP, Willy, Melo, Lee, all publicly expressed frustration or supported teammates when they did. Jeff/Rambis may not have a long shelf life. I think that locker room was pretty toxic and I don't think moving Melo just fixes it.

It may not be fair to blame that all on Melo, but it existed because of him. I totally disagree, he being gone (and Phil) completely changes the locker room in every way.

It starts on the court. Jeff's hands were tied. He tried to make it work under the parameters he was given. Starting with a system pushed by the team president and a star veteran player with an NTC that plays a certain way and has a very strong locker room presence. Think about the day2day of coaching an NBA team and what that consists of. How do you go over game tape and push defense without constantly calling out your star player (Who ranked #420 defensively)? You cant. So you have to avoid and and work on better execution of other areas, else you come off as blaming Melo and he turns the locker room against you.

Remove Melo and what are you left with?

And here is why Sinix is dead wrong. He's just a pissy someone pooped in my cocoa puffs kind of guy anyway, but he's wrong. Despite Phil's phuckups he gave us what we needed... some stinky years, some young players worth building around and a long leash for the next guy with a plan.
As a build around core KP/Willy/Frank/THjr is a great start. KP is easily one of the NBA's best prospects. I always ask the same question.. who are the NBA's best players in rookie contracts?
1) KAT
2) KP
3) hodgepodge

Willy is a nice mix of Horford and Gasol. He's got plenty to learn but has the makings of a high end player at the 5. If we can leave KP at the 4 he could possibly becomes the best NBA help defender... ever. THjr really made nice strides. His inside outside game really blossomed last year and of course you have young Frank who is good at everything. What would be really key is if another young guy pops. I think Dotson has a great shot, but 2nd rounders are 2nd rounders. Seeing is believing. Maybe Ron Baker takes a big step forward and hits the 3 like he did @ Wichita. People forget a big part of the reason we got off to such a good start during KP's rookie season was Langston Galloway came out playing great D and hitting every 3 he made. It wasnt sustainable but thats not the point. The point was the impact. Can Ron Baker mimic that?

I think minimally Rambis needs to be let go or reassigned to help with the locker room. I think the conflicts between players and coaches is more complex than Phil/Melo. Jeff and KP were not communicating with each other for the first part of the summer and there has been talk of Jeff having to mend his relationship with KP. I believe Rosen wrote a piece where he talked about Rambis's struggles and frustrations with modern day players. Does that guy need to be on the bench? His best friend snt the pres anymore.

I totally disagree. With no Melo/Phil the landscape is totally changed. There will be very little carry over as Jeff simply has to say he's free of some restrictions he had in the past and things will be different. The offense is going through KP, THjr, Willy and whoever else earns it. Its going to be defense first Jeff can be transparent with this. All our young guys are willing defenders. This will be fine.

Jeff knows Rambis well. Jeff is smart. He will have a plan as to what coaches will do what. Whats important is he has the freedom and support to do what he wants on both sides of the ball. Most of those guys are good locker room guys.

I have a very mixed feelings on this particular topic. For starters, Rambis has demonstrated very little IMO. Whetheras head coach, assistant coach, triangle czar, defense. For all I know he could be very smart, and say the right things, but it didn't seem to translate into clear results.

On the other hand, he seemed to serve a role when Phil was in charge (no not spy). I think it was Phil's way of showing the players that the team is in charge, not the players, and if they didn't like Rambis then they needed to learn to like him, because that's the way things were going to be run.

Personally, I'm happy with the latter approach. I see very little success in anything when you let the kooks run the asylum or the players run a team (with the possible exception of the Lebron's of the world). The military for a long time has known that a stick is a better motivator than a carrot. That fear is the strongest motivator. Playing all nice-nice with the underlings creates nice warm and fuzzies but it can also lead to loses (or deaths)

Having said that, it seems like most of the NBA is now a bunch of thin-skinned sissy-boys who pout when the coach calls them out.

So if they throw out Rambis,IMO it should be because they decide on an objective assessment he wasn't effective. If they throw him out because the players are complaining -- they threw out the wrong people