The way everyone is talking is that Mills is the talent eval guy/capologist/trade maker/etc. Mlls is a business guy..a corporate guy.....and when you reach a certain level and there are "shake ups" and you survive...you may have a new title and role....but the org respects what you bring to the table because they know you can get things done...I see nothing wrong in having veto power or final say on things from Mills perspective...what I do see as an issue is keeping the holdovers...but MSG is corporate and the decision maker reserves the right to keep "their" guys...If you know this going in you make the decision...accept that situation and the culture or pass...Griff took a pass.

MSG is not your normal franchise.....corporate owned is very different....than a GS state that has investors...or DAL, LAC, MEM...that have billionaire owners....Dolan is an deep pocket exec that is sitting on a damn cash register...and one thing is that he is loyal....you do not find that in todays corporate world...

The Knicks have at least two former GMs working for them and a bunch of talent evaluators...Yes the results have been miserable....but in the Phil era it was forcing the triangle with your best player calling BS on this...prior to Phil....outside of the 50+ win season Melo and Stat(aside from the injuries) did not have the right point guard...if CP3 came had they not signed Tyson and Amare not hit with injuries you would have a different team....I know would of coulda shoulda but....F-it...had it occurred it would be different ...just like SA and the T. Duncan draft after Boston hired Pitino and was all waiting the Tim to fall into their lap and they got Fcked

The moves that the Knicks made did not pan out....

Also it not all about tanking.....everyone wants to tank.....a pick does not mean Shizzzt unless you make the right pick.....also we already have a player that teams tank for years in a row to get with KP...we have that first piece and you build from there....and try to win and develop along the way

People need to recognize Mills for what he is which is an upper echelon exec that survived hos boss's ouster and now he is getting his shot .....again....does he deserve the position...debatable....but he is not making decisions in a vacuum. The only thing THjr signing revealed to me that it was Phil that wanted to trade him and that the "deep state" at MSG thought and still think he was a talent. Time will tell if they were right.

ekstarks94 wrote:Anybody with a talent for business can move into different roles/industries....you hire the subject matter experts under you.....but you have to cultivate the vision....you trust your staff under you with the details and you map out the broad strokes and stay on top of execution. As a finance exec for the past 20 yrs in multiple industries I know having the right resources to allow you to make "competent" decisions is key.

The way everyone is talking is that Mills is the talent eval guy/capologist/trade maker/etc. Mlls is a business guy..a corporate guy.....and when you reach a certain level and there are "shake ups" and you survive...you may have a new title and role....but the org respects what you bring to the table because they know you can get things done...I see nothing wrong in having veto power or final say on things from Mills perspective...what I do see as an issue is keeping the holdovers...but MSG is corporate and the decision maker reserves the right to keep "their" guys...If you know this going in you make the decision...accept that situation and the culture or pass...Griff took a pass.

MSG is not your normal franchise.....corporate owned is very different....than a GS state that has investors...or DAL, LAC, MEM...that have billionaire owners....Dolan is an deep pocket exec that is sitting on a damn cash register...and one thing is that he is loyal....you do not find that in todays corporate world...

The Knicks have at least two former GMs working for them and a bunch of talent evaluators...Yes the results have been miserable....but in the Phil era it was forcing the triangle with your best player calling BS on this...prior to Phil....outside of the 50+ win season Melo and Stat(aside from the injuries) did not have the right point guard...if CP3 came had they not signed Tyson and Amare not hit with injuries you would have a different team....I know would of coulda shoulda but....F-it...had it occurred it would be different ...just like SA and the T. Duncan draft after Boston hired Pitino and was all waiting the Tim to fall into their lap and they got Fcked

The moves that the Knicks made did not pan out....

Also it not all about tanking.....everyone wants to tank.....a pick does not mean Shizzzt unless you make the right pick.....also we already have a player that teams tank for years in a row to get with KP...we have that first piece and you build from there....and try to win and develop along the way

People need to recognize Mills for what he is which is an upper echelon exec that survived hos boss's ouster and now he is getting his shot .....again....does he deserve the position...debatable....but he is not making decisions in a vacuum. The only thing THjr signing revealed to me that it was Phil that wanted to trade him and that the "deep state" at MSG thought and still think he was a talent. Time will tell if they were right.

Great Post!!! Never gave much thought to the bolded...Thanks for pointing that out...

Uptown wrote:

ekstarks94 wrote:Anybody with a talent for business can move into different roles/industries....you hire the subject matter experts under you.....but you have to cultivate the vision....you trust your staff under you with the details and you map out the broad strokes and stay on top of execution. As a finance exec for the past 20 yrs in multiple industries I know having the right resources to allow you to make "competent" decisions is key.

The way everyone is talking is that Mills is the talent eval guy/capologist/trade maker/etc. Mlls is a business guy..a corporate guy.....and when you reach a certain level and there are "shake ups" and you survive...you may have a new title and role....but the org respects what you bring to the table because they know you can get things done...I see nothing wrong in having veto power or final say on things from Mills perspective...what I do see as an issue is keeping the holdovers...but MSG is corporate and the decision maker reserves the right to keep "their" guys...If you know this going in you make the decision...accept that situation and the culture or pass...Griff took a pass.

MSG is not your normal franchise.....corporate owned is very different....than a GS state that has investors...or DAL, LAC, MEM...that have billionaire owners....Dolan is an deep pocket exec that is sitting on a damn cash register...and one thing is that he is loyal....you do not find that in todays corporate world...

The Knicks have at least two former GMs working for them and a bunch of talent evaluators...Yes the results have been miserable....but in the Phil era it was forcing the triangle with your best player calling BS on this...prior to Phil....outside of the 50+ win season Melo and Stat(aside from the injuries) did not have the right point guard...if CP3 came had they not signed Tyson and Amare not hit with injuries you would have a different team....I know would of coulda shoulda but....F-it...had it occurred it would be different ...just like SA and the T. Duncan draft after Boston hired Pitino and was all waiting the Tim to fall into their lap and they got Fcked

The moves that the Knicks made did not pan out....

Also it not all about tanking.....everyone wants to tank.....a pick does not mean Shizzzt unless you make the right pick.....also we already have a player that teams tank for years in a row to get with KP...we have that first piece and you build from there....and try to win and develop along the way

People need to recognize Mills for what he is which is an upper echelon exec that survived hos boss's ouster and now he is getting his shot .....again....does he deserve the position...debatable....but he is not making decisions in a vacuum. The only thing THjr signing revealed to me that it was Phil that wanted to trade him and that the "deep state" at MSG thought and still think he was a talent. Time will tell if they were right.

Great Post!!! Never gave much thought to the bolded...Thanks for pointing that out...

Thanks....I think we all kind of look at other franchises and say that they operate like this...why can't we.....corporate culture is about conforming to the existing culture..... not changing unless change comes from the top....all of these writers and bloggers use the same mentality to attack us.....but even in their own profession...they have to assimilate.....even with Phil's free spirit...he settled into being a "suit".....we need someone that is aware and knows how to navigate that....if you thought finding triangle players are difficult.....I think finding that type of GM will be 10x that..

#1- MSG sells out every game no matter what
#2- Knick fans won't boo a proper rebuild

I agree it's about Dolan's ego. He doesn't like people going to see his sh-tty jazz band and heckling him that the Knicks suck and that hiring Phil was a disaster. I honestly think this is Dolan's end game. Being cheered as a hero and good musician at his terrible concerts.

"No one has Steve Mills' phone number," said one Western Conference executive. Another executive said that, unlike most teams, the Knicks have no one who regularly calls around to gauge the value of players, or to get a sense of who is available. That job is typically done by the GM or an assistant GM. With Jackson hired to be more of an overseer—and with no interest in the schmoozing game—the Knicks would seem to need an experienced, well-networked GM to make the rounds with rival executives.

fishmike wrote:

ekstarks94 wrote:Anybody with a talent for business can move into different roles/industries....you hire the subject matter experts under you.....but you have to cultivate the vision....you trust your staff under you with the details and you map out the broad strokes and stay on top of execution. As a finance exec for the past 20 yrs in multiple industries I know having the right resources to allow you to make "competent" decisions is key.

The way everyone is talking is that Mills is the talent eval guy/capologist/trade maker/etc. Mlls is a business guy..a corporate guy.....and when you reach a certain level and there are "shake ups" and you survive...you may have a new title and role....but the org respects what you bring to the table because they know you can get things done...I see nothing wrong in having veto power or final say on things from Mills perspective...what I do see as an issue is keeping the holdovers...but MSG is corporate and the decision maker reserves the right to keep "their" guys...If you know this going in you make the decision...accept that situation and the culture or pass...Griff took a pass.

MSG is not your normal franchise.....corporate owned is very different....than a GS state that has investors...or DAL, LAC, MEM...that have billionaire owners....Dolan is an deep pocket exec that is sitting on a damn cash register...and one thing is that he is loyal....you do not find that in todays corporate world...

The Knicks have at least two former GMs working for them and a bunch of talent evaluators...Yes the results have been miserable....but in the Phil era it was forcing the triangle with your best player calling BS on this...prior to Phil....outside of the 50+ win season Melo and Stat(aside from the injuries) did not have the right point guard...if CP3 came had they not signed Tyson and Amare not hit with injuries you would have a different team....I know would of coulda shoulda but....F-it...had it occurred it would be different ...just like SA and the T. Duncan draft after Boston hired Pitino and was all waiting the Tim to fall into their lap and they got Fcked

The moves that the Knicks made did not pan out....

Also it not all about tanking.....everyone wants to tank.....a pick does not mean Shizzzt unless you make the right pick.....also we already have a player that teams tank for years in a row to get with KP...we have that first piece and you build from there....and try to win and develop along the way

People need to recognize Mills for what he is which is an upper echelon exec that survived hos boss's ouster and now he is getting his shot .....again....does he deserve the position...debatable....but he is not making decisions in a vacuum. The only thing THjr signing revealed to me that it was Phil that wanted to trade him and that the "deep state" at MSG thought and still think he was a talent. Time will tell if they were right.

The problem is there has been no methodology, no plan, no vision and no protocol. I could tolerate bad signings and bad trades and bad drafts. They happen. The combination of failure in those 3 areas coupled by the sheer stupidity of some of the moves really makes one wonder.

Nothing works without a pipeline. The bottom line is if the Knicks continue to respect the draft as they have under Phil, if they continue to take their D league seriously as they did under Phil, and if they continue to scout overseas and undrafted talent as they have under Phil they will be just fine. Thats not giving Phil credit... EVERY good franchise in every pro sport does this.

Thats all that really matters. Mills? Houston? Give them 10 years to figure it out. All that matters is the above stays true and you have a good talent guy making the calls. Gaines has earned a very big paycheck and final say on draft day as well as some veto for deals involving picks. Let he, Houston and Mills work to build this thing. MSG can always pay its own players. If we were GS we would max out Curry, KD, Klay, Dray, Iggy, carry a $200mm payroll and say phuck your luxury tax were are Yankees... I mean Knicks.

The point is NY can pay, what we need is talent worth paying for. At least THjr is young, improving and a strong analytics signing for a contract that puts him around 14th highest paid at his position. Thats a reasonable risk whether you like the signing or not. Fine.

If we take fodder and a pick or two for Melo fine. We have to move on from that. Might as well be sooner than later. Whats the plan and whats the protocol?

I agree...I do not think there in NO methodoolgy I think the methodology has shifted with the different regimes....Layden...was bringing in his Utah guys(Anderson , Eisley) and the McD trade, Isiah...was chasing stars and name players without thinking of cohesive fit....Donny was all about Lebron for 2 years and gave away picks to dump salary just to end up with STAT, Grunwald was an Isiah guy and made the dumbest deal with Bargiani, Phil...kept picks...wanted culture changes, but his culture was based on a basketball system that would be tossed once he left....

Our house has been sitting on a foundation of sand for a long time....

I say give Houston a shot....

ekstarks94 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

ekstarks94 wrote:Anybody with a talent for business can move into different roles/industries....you hire the subject matter experts under you.....but you have to cultivate the vision....you trust your staff under you with the details and you map out the broad strokes and stay on top of execution. As a finance exec for the past 20 yrs in multiple industries I know having the right resources to allow you to make "competent" decisions is key.

The way everyone is talking is that Mills is the talent eval guy/capologist/trade maker/etc. Mlls is a business guy..a corporate guy.....and when you reach a certain level and there are "shake ups" and you survive...you may have a new title and role....but the org respects what you bring to the table because they know you can get things done...I see nothing wrong in having veto power or final say on things from Mills perspective...what I do see as an issue is keeping the holdovers...but MSG is corporate and the decision maker reserves the right to keep "their" guys...If you know this going in you make the decision...accept that situation and the culture or pass...Griff took a pass.

MSG is not your normal franchise.....corporate owned is very different....than a GS state that has investors...or DAL, LAC, MEM...that have billionaire owners....Dolan is an deep pocket exec that is sitting on a damn cash register...and one thing is that he is loyal....you do not find that in todays corporate world...

The Knicks have at least two former GMs working for them and a bunch of talent evaluators...Yes the results have been miserable....but in the Phil era it was forcing the triangle with your best player calling BS on this...prior to Phil....outside of the 50+ win season Melo and Stat(aside from the injuries) did not have the right point guard...if CP3 came had they not signed Tyson and Amare not hit with injuries you would have a different team....I know would of coulda shoulda but....F-it...had it occurred it would be different ...just like SA and the T. Duncan draft after Boston hired Pitino and was all waiting the Tim to fall into their lap and they got Fcked

The moves that the Knicks made did not pan out....

Also it not all about tanking.....everyone wants to tank.....a pick does not mean Shizzzt unless you make the right pick.....also we already have a player that teams tank for years in a row to get with KP...we have that first piece and you build from there....and try to win and develop along the way

People need to recognize Mills for what he is which is an upper echelon exec that survived hos boss's ouster and now he is getting his shot .....again....does he deserve the position...debatable....but he is not making decisions in a vacuum. The only thing THjr signing revealed to me that it was Phil that wanted to trade him and that the "deep state" at MSG thought and still think he was a talent. Time will tell if they were right.

The problem is there has been no methodology, no plan, no vision and no protocol. I could tolerate bad signings and bad trades and bad drafts. They happen. The combination of failure in those 3 areas coupled by the sheer stupidity of some of the moves really makes one wonder.

Nothing works without a pipeline. The bottom line is if the Knicks continue to respect the draft as they have under Phil, if they continue to take their D league seriously as they did under Phil, and if they continue to scout overseas and undrafted talent as they have under Phil they will be just fine. Thats not giving Phil credit... EVERY good franchise in every pro sport does this.

Thats all that really matters. Mills? Houston? Give them 10 years to figure it out. All that matters is the above stays true and you have a good talent guy making the calls. Gaines has earned a very big paycheck and final say on draft day as well as some veto for deals involving picks. Let he, Houston and Mills work to build this thing. MSG can always pay its own players. If we were GS we would max out Curry, KD, Klay, Dray, Iggy, carry a $200mm payroll and say phuck your luxury tax were are Yankees... I mean Knicks.

The point is NY can pay, what we need is talent worth paying for. At least THjr is young, improving and a strong analytics signing for a contract that puts him around 14th highest paid at his position. Thats a reasonable risk whether you like the signing or not. Fine.

If we take fodder and a pick or two for Melo fine. We have to move on from that. Might as well be sooner than later. Whats the plan and whats the protocol?

I agree...I do not think there in NO methodoolgy I think the methodology has shifted with the different regimes....Layden...was bringing in his Utah guys(Anderson , Eisley) and the McD trade, Isiah...was chasing stars and name players without thinking of cohesive fit....Donny was all about Lebron for 2 years and gave away picks to dump salary just to end up with STAT, Grunwald was an Isiah guy and made the dumbest deal with Bargiani, Phil...kept picks...wanted culture changes, but his culture was based on a basketball system that would be tossed once he left....

Our house has been sitting on a foundation of sand for a long time....

I say give Houston a shot....

Sure. Lets give another guy with no experience as a gm the job. After another wasted 5 yrs then we can look for someone else. Why not actually look around and find a young assistant GM that actually does something and give him a shot. Nah thats too logical. Houston does nothing for the Knicks. He looks over the D league team. Wow thats really promising. This culture that Dolan created in MSG is so fuked we will never see the light. You can't keep doing the same thing ever 5 yrs and think its going to be different. We need to hire someone with basketball knowledge ( not playing for princeton) , with a vision , knows how to build a team, make trades, talk with other GM's and change this sheet show.

BigRedDog wrote:

ekstarks94 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

ekstarks94 wrote:Anybody with a talent for business can move into different roles/industries....you hire the subject matter experts under you.....but you have to cultivate the vision....you trust your staff under you with the details and you map out the broad strokes and stay on top of execution. As a finance exec for the past 20 yrs in multiple industries I know having the right resources to allow you to make "competent" decisions is key.

The way everyone is talking is that Mills is the talent eval guy/capologist/trade maker/etc. Mlls is a business guy..a corporate guy.....and when you reach a certain level and there are "shake ups" and you survive...you may have a new title and role....but the org respects what you bring to the table because they know you can get things done...I see nothing wrong in having veto power or final say on things from Mills perspective...what I do see as an issue is keeping the holdovers...but MSG is corporate and the decision maker reserves the right to keep "their" guys...If you know this going in you make the decision...accept that situation and the culture or pass...Griff took a pass.

MSG is not your normal franchise.....corporate owned is very different....than a GS state that has investors...or DAL, LAC, MEM...that have billionaire owners....Dolan is an deep pocket exec that is sitting on a damn cash register...and one thing is that he is loyal....you do not find that in todays corporate world...

The Knicks have at least two former GMs working for them and a bunch of talent evaluators...Yes the results have been miserable....but in the Phil era it was forcing the triangle with your best player calling BS on this...prior to Phil....outside of the 50+ win season Melo and Stat(aside from the injuries) did not have the right point guard...if CP3 came had they not signed Tyson and Amare not hit with injuries you would have a different team....I know would of coulda shoulda but....F-it...had it occurred it would be different ...just like SA and the T. Duncan draft after Boston hired Pitino and was all waiting the Tim to fall into their lap and they got Fcked

The moves that the Knicks made did not pan out....

Also it not all about tanking.....everyone wants to tank.....a pick does not mean Shizzzt unless you make the right pick.....also we already have a player that teams tank for years in a row to get with KP...we have that first piece and you build from there....and try to win and develop along the way

People need to recognize Mills for what he is which is an upper echelon exec that survived hos boss's ouster and now he is getting his shot .....again....does he deserve the position...debatable....but he is not making decisions in a vacuum. The only thing THjr signing revealed to me that it was Phil that wanted to trade him and that the "deep state" at MSG thought and still think he was a talent. Time will tell if they were right.

The problem is there has been no methodology, no plan, no vision and no protocol. I could tolerate bad signings and bad trades and bad drafts. They happen. The combination of failure in those 3 areas coupled by the sheer stupidity of some of the moves really makes one wonder.

Nothing works without a pipeline. The bottom line is if the Knicks continue to respect the draft as they have under Phil, if they continue to take their D league seriously as they did under Phil, and if they continue to scout overseas and undrafted talent as they have under Phil they will be just fine. Thats not giving Phil credit... EVERY good franchise in every pro sport does this.

Thats all that really matters. Mills? Houston? Give them 10 years to figure it out. All that matters is the above stays true and you have a good talent guy making the calls. Gaines has earned a very big paycheck and final say on draft day as well as some veto for deals involving picks. Let he, Houston and Mills work to build this thing. MSG can always pay its own players. If we were GS we would max out Curry, KD, Klay, Dray, Iggy, carry a $200mm payroll and say phuck your luxury tax were are Yankees... I mean Knicks.

The point is NY can pay, what we need is talent worth paying for. At least THjr is young, improving and a strong analytics signing for a contract that puts him around 14th highest paid at his position. Thats a reasonable risk whether you like the signing or not. Fine.

If we take fodder and a pick or two for Melo fine. We have to move on from that. Might as well be sooner than later. Whats the plan and whats the protocol?

I agree...I do not think there in NO methodoolgy I think the methodology has shifted with the different regimes....Layden...was bringing in his Utah guys(Anderson , Eisley) and the McD trade, Isiah...was chasing stars and name players without thinking of cohesive fit....Donny was all about Lebron for 2 years and gave away picks to dump salary just to end up with STAT, Grunwald was an Isiah guy and made the dumbest deal with Bargiani, Phil...kept picks...wanted culture changes, but his culture was based on a basketball system that would be tossed once he left....

Our house has been sitting on a foundation of sand for a long time....

I say give Houston a shot....

Sure. Lets give another guy with no experience as a gm the job. After another wasted 5 yrs then we can look for someone else. Why not actually look around and find a young assistant GM that actually does something and give him a shot. Nah thats too logical. Houston does nothing for the Knicks. He looks over the D league team. Wow thats really promising. This culture that Dolan created in MSG is so fuked we will never see the light. You can't keep doing the same thing ever 5 yrs and think its going to be different. We need to hire someone with basketball knowledge ( not playing for princeton) , with a vision , knows how to build a team, make trades, talk with other GM's and change this sheet show.

You hire these young fresh minds and then they get caught up in the corporate soup at MSG. You need someone that can navigate the political currents....puit capable people under Houston...because guess what...unless Dolan sells the team...not happening.....we will end up in the Shizzt storm....the guy(Houston) is here...he was under Donnie, he was under Phil, he was under Grunwald....how in the hell do you know what he can do....yes he runs the d-league team....not much of a resume...but he has Dolan and Mills ear...that is the best advantage any GM can have...

Get our narrative right.

Either he was lazy and actually was not responsible for a lot of bad deals.

Or he was hardworking and devoted but got things wrong.

Guys want more and more ammo that they don't realize the ammos are contradicted. Mills wrote down the details, then Phil APPROVED it. I didn't once say it was ALL on Mills, but your guys kept saying it was ALL on Phil. If we love Mills that much, fine. Who am I to argue with you? He has been one of TOP executive for Knicks more than TEN years (2003-2009, 2013-2017) but he was powerless all the time and was not responsible for even ONE deal? So he signed a 24yr with 71mil is called "focusing on getting younger" but Phil bought in a lot of D-leaguers was exactly going old? Do you know what going old is? Traded that pick (KP) for a vet would have been called "Going old" He said he tried to grow the young aspect of the team then he got fired. He was exactly going to do it.

Did you know why he didn't go younger all out earlier? Because your guys' hero Melo didn't want to go away and asked Phil to give one more shot. This guy sacrificed that much for Melo and you blamed him? That guy Mills laughed on Melo's training video and you now try to support him instead?

Sometimes I don't know what Melo fans are thinking. I am not trying to be insulting. I just do not understand.

CrushAlot wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:I meant why is 72mil not 69? why is it 4 year not 3 years + 1 year player option? He talked to the agent, and finalized the details, then asked Phil to sign it.

If Mills was not doing that, then what did he do? Just picks up the phone and calls Phil to come? Phil was not the number guy. He was not one knowing inside out of everything about contracts, years, options and deadlines.

The details, it is all Mills' job.

Bonn1997 wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:No argument with that. Phil was the boss. He had the final say. He took the full responsibility. He should have said no to that 72mil contract, but at the same time, Mills should have provided him a better one to sign on.

Bonn1997 wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:No, but there is only one number guy in the room.

Dolan "I am not the number guy."
Phil "I am not the number guy."

I mean, I could have said "You think if Dolan wanted to give THjr that contract, Mills could have stopped him?!"

At the end, we have to understand Mills has a dream job. He is just siting here collecting checks, doing some heavy lifting, or scouting Willy or etc etc etc. As a GM he is pretty amazing. Everything happened would not be his responsibility until the result turned out was good. He was not the basketball guy until he was responsible for Willy. He was the number guy until someone had to write down the details of contracts for Noah.

So, who was helping him now with this THjr contracts? Rambis? He is the number guy, it is his job. It was just like Phil was the basketball guy, he should have picked those guys who could work together.

There is no excuse for BOTH.

Bonn1997 wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:At the very least he should have negotiated better contracts with agents. If Noah is Phil's sin but Phil is not the number guy, I have to put it on Mills. How could he do such things so bad? Like THjr's contract, Noah's was massively overpaid. Could he have done better because 1.The guy got injured recently 2.He was very friendly to Phil 3.He actually came from New York and was a Knick fan.

I mean, Noah is a Noah but could Mills make a cheaper mistake instead? Like 52mil /4 year? or 36mil /2 year? I really didn't think he has done a good job. Phil chose the wrong guy, then Mills signed him in a wrong contract.

It was like,
Phil "Are you sure it is 72mil? It looks a little bit expensive."
Mills "Yes, sure. His agent told me there is a lot of teams which are bidding against us."
Phil "Fine. You tried your best?"
Mills "Sure. I am well respected among agents, and I knows numbers. I gratuated from Princeton. "

Finally, I start to understand why he is well respected among agents too....They just cannot find a better guy to negotiate for their clients.

Bonn1997 wrote:

BigRedDog wrote:What has Mills EVER done in his career to warrant having him make ALL basketball decisions??? He is a money man. So you want to let him muck up this sheet show even more??? Set this franchise back another 5 yrs??? WE NEED A BASKETBALL PERSON MAKING BASKETBALL DECISIONS. How stupid can we be??

Mills has an extensive career before the Knicks too. I don't really judge him by the Knicks record since I doubt he ever had power to overrule the decisions of Phil, Isiah, Layden etc. He's had a career as a pro player, businessman, and NBA executive. From what I read, he takes an analytics approach and wants to rebuild long-term. I'm happy to give him his first chance to build an NBA team.

TH JR is the only one he signed. He wasn't the one in charge during those other signings. You think if Phil and Dolan wanted to give Noah that contract, Mills could have stopped them?!

Right but officially the president makes the decisions and the owner signs off on them. As GM, Mills job is just to assist the president. The default assumption would be the president was making the deals unless proven otherwise.

The GM provides the contracts? What does that mean? I don't think GMs are as powerful as you're saying.

Are you suggesting that Phil didn't negotiate all of the bad deals during his tenure, that this is on Mills? Are you suggesting Phil just rubber stamped the bad deals Mills brought to him? If that is the case, what did Phil do? Also, why is Mills focusing on getting younger and more athletic when Phil brought in older vets to compete now?

mlby1215 wrote:No offense, but don't you think it's ridiculous that Mills has been rubber stamp for ten more years? I said he has a dream job. This is why. It was always the responsibility of someone else when it failed, and Knicks failed a lot so everyone came and went but he was always here.

You trust Mills to be the man because he played professionally before? Really?

http://biography.jrank.org/pages/2360/Mills-Steve.html

At six-feet, one-inch tall, Mills was small for a professional basketball player, but he still hoped for an NBA career. After he was passed over during the NBA draft, he took a job as manager of new business development at New York's Chemical Bank. The officer who recruited him was a former Brown University basketball player and was sympathetic to Mills's continuing dreams of making the pros, offering to defer Mills's start date until. after Mills played professional basketball in Ecuador for a year. But after that year, Mills called a halt to his basketball career.

In all of his life, he has only been a professional basketball player for only ONE year in Ecuador, so suddenly it counts? If he played one year in Ecuador so he is qualified to be a prez, I am sure winning 13 champions as a coach and player would be qualified too.

And don't say Mills is qualified because he worked as an executive before, Phil would be qualified too because before 16-17 , he has exactly worked as a prez for TWO years.

So maybe people would suggest that only winning as an executive counts then what did Mills win as an executive? At the end, Mills COULD be a good prez but he sure would not be qualified if Phil was not qualified.

Bonn1997 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:I meant why is 72mil not 69? why is it 4 year not 3 years + 1 year player option? He talked to the agent, and finalized the details, then asked Phil to sign it.

If Mills was not doing that, then what did he do? Just picks up the phone and calls Phil to come? Phil was not the number guy. He was not one knowing inside out of everything about contracts, years, options and deadlines.

The details, it is all Mills' job.

Bonn1997 wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:No argument with that. Phil was the boss. He had the final say. He took the full responsibility. He should have said no to that 72mil contract, but at the same time, Mills should have provided him a better one to sign on.

Bonn1997 wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:No, but there is only one number guy in the room.

Dolan "I am not the number guy."
Phil "I am not the number guy."

I mean, I could have said "You think if Dolan wanted to give THjr that contract, Mills could have stopped him?!"

At the end, we have to understand Mills has a dream job. He is just siting here collecting checks, doing some heavy lifting, or scouting Willy or etc etc etc. As a GM he is pretty amazing. Everything happened would not be his responsibility until the result turned out was good. He was not the basketball guy until he was responsible for Willy. He was the number guy until someone had to write down the details of contracts for Noah.

So, who was helping him now with this THjr contracts? Rambis? He is the number guy, it is his job. It was just like Phil was the basketball guy, he should have picked those guys who could work together.

There is no excuse for BOTH.

Bonn1997 wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:At the very least he should have negotiated better contracts with agents. If Noah is Phil's sin but Phil is not the number guy, I have to put it on Mills. How could he do such things so bad? Like THjr's contract, Noah's was massively overpaid. Could he have done better because 1.The guy got injured recently 2.He was very friendly to Phil 3.He actually came from New York and was a Knick fan.

I mean, Noah is a Noah but could Mills make a cheaper mistake instead? Like 52mil /4 year? or 36mil /2 year? I really didn't think he has done a good job. Phil chose the wrong guy, then Mills signed him in a wrong contract.

It was like,
Phil "Are you sure it is 72mil? It looks a little bit expensive."
Mills "Yes, sure. His agent told me there is a lot of teams which are bidding against us."
Phil "Fine. You tried your best?"
Mills "Sure. I am well respected among agents, and I knows numbers. I gratuated from Princeton. "

Finally, I start to understand why he is well respected among agents too....They just cannot find a better guy to negotiate for their clients.

Bonn1997 wrote:

BigRedDog wrote:What has Mills EVER done in his career to warrant having him make ALL basketball decisions??? He is a money man. So you want to let him muck up this sheet show even more??? Set this franchise back another 5 yrs??? WE NEED A BASKETBALL PERSON MAKING BASKETBALL DECISIONS. How stupid can we be??

Mills has an extensive career before the Knicks too. I don't really judge him by the Knicks record since I doubt he ever had power to overrule the decisions of Phil, Isiah, Layden etc. He's had a career as a pro player, businessman, and NBA executive. From what I read, he takes an analytics approach and wants to rebuild long-term. I'm happy to give him his first chance to build an NBA team.

TH JR is the only one he signed. He wasn't the one in charge during those other signings. You think if Phil and Dolan wanted to give Noah that contract, Mills could have stopped them?!

Right but officially the president makes the decisions and the owner signs off on them. As GM, Mills job is just to assist the president. The default assumption would be the president was making the deals unless proven otherwise.

The GM provides the contracts? What does that mean? I don't think GMs are as powerful as you're saying.

Are you suggesting that Phil didn't negotiate all of the bad deals during his tenure, that this is on Mills? Are you suggesting Phil just rubber stamped the bad deals Mills brought to him? If that is the case, what did Phil do? Also, why is Mills focusing on getting younger and more athletic when Phil brought in older vets to compete now?

It's ridiculous. I get Irish just rubber stamped Mills deals too.

meloshouldgo wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Uptown wrote:

ekstarks94 wrote:Anybody with a talent for business can move into different roles/industries....you hire the subject matter experts under you.....but you have to cultivate the vision....you trust your staff under you with the details and you map out the broad strokes and stay on top of execution. As a finance exec for the past 20 yrs in multiple industries I know having the right resources to allow you to make "competent" decisions is key.

The way everyone is talking is that Mills is the talent eval guy/capologist/trade maker/etc. Mlls is a business guy..a corporate guy.....and when you reach a certain level and there are "shake ups" and you survive...you may have a new title and role....but the org respects what you bring to the table because they know you can get things done...I see nothing wrong in having veto power or final say on things from Mills perspective...what I do see as an issue is keeping the holdovers...but MSG is corporate and the decision maker reserves the right to keep "their" guys...If you know this going in you make the decision...accept that situation and the culture or pass...Griff took a pass.

MSG is not your normal franchise.....corporate owned is very different....than a GS state that has investors...or DAL, LAC, MEM...that have billionaire owners....Dolan is an deep pocket exec that is sitting on a damn cash register...and one thing is that he is loyal....you do not find that in todays corporate world...

The Knicks have at least two former GMs working for them and a bunch of talent evaluators...Yes the results have been miserable....but in the Phil era it was forcing the triangle with your best player calling BS on this...prior to Phil....outside of the 50+ win season Melo and Stat(aside from the injuries) did not have the right point guard...if CP3 came had they not signed Tyson and Amare not hit with injuries you would have a different team....I know would of coulda shoulda but....F-it...had it occurred it would be different ...just like SA and the T. Duncan draft after Boston hired Pitino and was all waiting the Tim to fall into their lap and they got Fcked

The moves that the Knicks made did not pan out....

Also it not all about tanking.....everyone wants to tank.....a pick does not mean Shizzzt unless you make the right pick.....also we already have a player that teams tank for years in a row to get with KP...we have that first piece and you build from there....and try to win and develop along the way

People need to recognize Mills for what he is which is an upper echelon exec that survived hos boss's ouster and now he is getting his shot .....again....does he deserve the position...debatable....but he is not making decisions in a vacuum. The only thing THjr signing revealed to me that it was Phil that wanted to trade him and that the "deep state" at MSG thought and still think he was a talent. Time will tell if they were right.

Great Post!!! Never gave much thought to the bolded...Thanks for pointing that out...

Yeah, it's a night and day difference. Cablevision has shareholders they have to answer to immediately. So I don't think we'll ever see the team tank from the beginning of the season. I think they'll always try to make the playoffs. It would definitely be better to just have a billionaire investor who loved the Knicks own the team.

Dolan owns controlling interest in MSG. He doesn't answer to anyone. If he were really worried about a shareholder revolt, the Knicks wouldnt be such a mess, he would have cleaned house a long time ago.

The only thing Dolan is worried about is having his name dragged across the headlines, not the board of directors.

Dolan is just another billionaire owner like the others, except winning isnt all that important to him, just profits. Most billionaire owners take more pride in their team.

Cablevision is no longer shareholder owned publicly traded company, it was acquired by Altice in 2016. It's now part of a privately held company and Dolan doesn't control it.

Madison Square Garden company was carved out of cablevision before the sale and is still majority owned by Dolan and is a publicly traded company (Stock ticker MSG). The company doesn't own the MSG tv channel anymore that was spun into a different company. Instead in 2016 MSG company acquired a different cable tv company.

Tell me something I dont know. I said Dolan owns controlling interest in MSG, not Cablevision.