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The Direction of the Knicks
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Knixkik
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7/8/2017  7:49 AM
Andrew wrote:This is my opinion on what is happening with the Knicks, and to me its all about KP and what he wants and not so much about Melo. If KP was happy with the direction under Phil, I think Phil would still be here, but that relationship seemed at an impasse and so Phil had to go. KP seems like he wants to be more of the focal point, and that is OK...the Knicks should probably move in that direction. I think JP also wants to be on a team that wins....and that is why he was upset with the Melo situation. Put pieces in place where he can see a chance to win over the next 2 years and he stays. Tear it down completely and suck for 2 years and I think he leaves.

Knicks are going to have to balance the youth movement with at least a decent amount of wins, or at least convince KP that he the organization is heading in the right direction.

Thoughts?

I think this is true. The direction is very clear. We are rebuilding, but not tanking. Some fans put it hand and hand and are obsessed with tanking. Mills is investing in Hardaway as the SG for the next 7-8 years. Right now he is an average starter/high level 6th man. The downside is overpaying for that. The upside is he develops into an above average starting SG. This team is being built around KP, Ntilikina, Willy, and Hardaway. 4 guys aged 25 and under. That's a nice foundation. KP could be the franchise player most rebuilding teams search for and struggle to find. We have that. Ntilikina and Hardaway are the backcourt of the future and seem to have skillets that compliment each other (and Porzingis) very well. It stands to be seen if Willy is a starter or a high level 6th man. But either way, there is a foundation for now and the future that can grow together. Guys like Baker and Dobson can form a nice guard rotation off the bench. I can see a plan here. The money was a little crazy for Hardaway, but it's a clear investment into this youth movement that we needed.

AUTOADVERT
Bonn1997
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7/8/2017  7:53 AM
We've never had a GM/President who kept picks and focused on young free agents. The good news is we might be getting our first real rebuild in 20+ years.
Bonn1997
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7/8/2017  7:54 AM
meloshouldgo wrote:
MS wrote:Tyreke Evans just signed a 1 year $3.5MM deal. Perhaps that was the right signing. This is what smart teams do.

They wait and get useable parts, don't overly for moderate talent. See blazers and Detroit Pistons.

Exactly what smart teams do, and exactly why we are not one of those


Evans is terrible. I wouldn't even want him for free.
Nalod
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7/8/2017  7:59 AM
No team "Tanks" in July.
Fans are emotional. Media primarily is writing articles to hate on mills and Timmay. A few scouts/coach's at least have said THjr is a much improved player. Judge and jury already hating on him and we all n a tizz for not "tanking"?

What's wrong fans?

Also looks like we might get something in return for melo. Two weeks ago media put I in a rage for a buy out.
And none of them saw Phil departing.

Rebuilding is not the same as Tanking. Who tanks in July????

meloshouldgo
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7/8/2017  10:21 AM
Knixkik wrote:
Andrew wrote:This is my opinion on what is happening with the Knicks, and to me its all about KP and what he wants and not so much about Melo. If KP was happy with the direction under Phil, I think Phil would still be here, but that relationship seemed at an impasse and so Phil had to go. KP seems like he wants to be more of the focal point, and that is OK...the Knicks should probably move in that direction. I think JP also wants to be on a team that wins....and that is why he was upset with the Melo situation. Put pieces in place where he can see a chance to win over the next 2 years and he stays. Tear it down completely and suck for 2 years and I think he leaves.

Knicks are going to have to balance the youth movement with at least a decent amount of wins, or at least convince KP that he the organization is heading in the right direction.

Thoughts?

I think this is true. The direction is very clear. We are rebuilding, but not tanking. Some fans put it hand and hand and are obsessed with tanking. Mills is investing in Hardaway as the SG for the next 7-8 years. Right now he is an average starter/high level 6th man. The downside is overpaying for that. The upside is he develops into an above average starting SG. This team is being built around KP, Ntilikina, Willy, and Hardaway. 4 guys aged 25 and under. That's a nice foundation. KP could be the franchise player most rebuilding teams search for and struggle to find. We have that. Ntilikina and Hardaway are the backcourt of the future and seem to have skillets that compliment each other (and Porzingis) very well. It stands to be seen if Willy is a starter or a high level 6th man. But either way, there is a foundation for now and the future that can grow together. Guys like Baker and Dobson can form a nice guard rotation off the bench. I can see a plan here. The money was a little crazy for Hardaway, but it's a clear investment into this youth movement that we needed.

No people are trying to spin this into the rebuild, the rebuild is over. Our direction was to add TWO WAY TEAM PLAYERS as long term pieces(please hold three padagraph posts about Noah).

By signing Hardaway we are going back to our rich tradition of overpaying for iso players that can only score. And in this case even the scoring is somewhat questionable, he averaged 14 pts last season. And we are going to move Rose who averaged 18 to make room for him to play a position of non need. For all the hype about this kid any videos showing him pass the rock? How many assists does he average? While people are hung up on his potential "star" value, no one talks about his potential for being a black hole. This is a high risk, low/medium reward move.

When you add players for their "potential" you don't overpay. This ain't no rebuild.

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
Bonn1997
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7/8/2017  10:26 AM    LAST EDITED: 7/8/2017  10:27 AM
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
Andrew wrote:This is my opinion on what is happening with the Knicks, and to me its all about KP and what he wants and not so much about Melo. If KP was happy with the direction under Phil, I think Phil would still be here, but that relationship seemed at an impasse and so Phil had to go. KP seems like he wants to be more of the focal point, and that is OK...the Knicks should probably move in that direction. I think JP also wants to be on a team that wins....and that is why he was upset with the Melo situation. Put pieces in place where he can see a chance to win over the next 2 years and he stays. Tear it down completely and suck for 2 years and I think he leaves.

Knicks are going to have to balance the youth movement with at least a decent amount of wins, or at least convince KP that he the organization is heading in the right direction.

Thoughts?

I think this is true. The direction is very clear. We are rebuilding, but not tanking. Some fans put it hand and hand and are obsessed with tanking. Mills is investing in Hardaway as the SG for the next 7-8 years. Right now he is an average starter/high level 6th man. The downside is overpaying for that. The upside is he develops into an above average starting SG. This team is being built around KP, Ntilikina, Willy, and Hardaway. 4 guys aged 25 and under. That's a nice foundation. KP could be the franchise player most rebuilding teams search for and struggle to find. We have that. Ntilikina and Hardaway are the backcourt of the future and seem to have skillets that compliment each other (and Porzingis) very well. It stands to be seen if Willy is a starter or a high level 6th man. But either way, there is a foundation for now and the future that can grow together. Guys like Baker and Dobson can form a nice guard rotation off the bench. I can see a plan here. The money was a little crazy for Hardaway, but it's a clear investment into this youth movement that we needed.

No people are trying to spin this into the rebuild, the rebuild is over. Our direction was to add TWO WAY TEAM PLAYERS as long term pieces(please hold three padagraph posts about Noah).

By signing Hardaway we are going back to our rich tradition of overpaying for iso players that can only score. And in this case even the scoring is somewhat questionable, he averaged 14 pts last season. And we are going to move Rose who averaged 18 to make room for him to play a position of non need. For all the hype about this kid any videos showing him pass the rock? How many assists does he average? While people are hung up on his potential "star" value, no one talks about his potential for being a black hole. This is a high risk, low/medium reward move.

When you add players for their "potential" you don't overpay. This ain't no rebuild.


I will gladly describe this as a rebuild, although we have to wait to see what happens with the rest of the transactions. It looks like for the first time in decades, we're focused on keeping picks and signing young players. You still looking at PPG? GMs stopped looking at volume stats like a decade ago. Why not just keep Melo if you value PPG so much?
newyorknewyork
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7/8/2017  10:27 AM
Chandler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:Don't like the deal but it is what it is.

If we can land a starting SF 24 years old or younger then we could have our starting lineup set for the next 6 years. Frank and Hardaway jr actually compliment each other in the back court though Hardaway still needs to continue to improve his all around game. That is a lot of time to try and build something as the players grow together. The problem is I don't trust that the Knicks will be able to build something. They will probably think they are one piece away and trade Noah with 2 future unprotected picks thinking its all they need to get over the hump.

Lee & Lance both need to be dumped for cap space.

Absent a good deal I would keep Lee and lance. They're both good eggs and will show the youngster how to be pros and grown ups

Hopefully lance is healthy and Lee gets more aggressive.

Having said that, if the right deal comes along...

He has to be moved now as his value is only going to decrease rapidly. He is getting older with 3 years left and will be a backup on the team. What ever his value is right now is the highest its going to be over the next 3 years. Its only going to drop going forward.

https://vote.nba.com/en Vote for your Knicks.
Bonn1997
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7/8/2017  10:29 AM
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
Andrew wrote:This is my opinion on what is happening with the Knicks, and to me its all about KP and what he wants and not so much about Melo. If KP was happy with the direction under Phil, I think Phil would still be here, but that relationship seemed at an impasse and so Phil had to go. KP seems like he wants to be more of the focal point, and that is OK...the Knicks should probably move in that direction. I think JP also wants to be on a team that wins....and that is why he was upset with the Melo situation. Put pieces in place where he can see a chance to win over the next 2 years and he stays. Tear it down completely and suck for 2 years and I think he leaves.

Knicks are going to have to balance the youth movement with at least a decent amount of wins, or at least convince KP that he the organization is heading in the right direction.

Thoughts?

I think this is true. The direction is very clear. We are rebuilding, but not tanking. Some fans put it hand and hand and are obsessed with tanking. Mills is investing in Hardaway as the SG for the next 7-8 years. Right now he is an average starter/high level 6th man. The downside is overpaying for that. The upside is he develops into an above average starting SG. This team is being built around KP, Ntilikina, Willy, and Hardaway. 4 guys aged 25 and under. That's a nice foundation. KP could be the franchise player most rebuilding teams search for and struggle to find. We have that. Ntilikina and Hardaway are the backcourt of the future and seem to have skillets that compliment each other (and Porzingis) very well. It stands to be seen if Willy is a starter or a high level 6th man. But either way, there is a foundation for now and the future that can grow together. Guys like Baker and Dobson can form a nice guard rotation off the bench. I can see a plan here. The money was a little crazy for Hardaway, but it's a clear investment into this youth movement that we needed.

No people are trying to spin this into the rebuild, the rebuild is over. Our direction was to add TWO WAY TEAM PLAYERS as long term pieces(please hold three padagraph posts about Noah).

By signing Hardaway we are going back to our rich tradition of overpaying for iso players that can only score. And in this case even the scoring is somewhat questionable, he averaged 14 pts last season. And we are going to move Rose who averaged 18 to make room for him to play a position of non need. For all the hype about this kid any videos showing him pass the rock? How many assists does he average? While people are hung up on his potential "star" value, no one talks about his potential for being a black hole. This is a high risk, low/medium reward move.

When you add players for their "potential" you don't overpay. This ain't no rebuild.

Just to give this some perspective, Rose averaged 18.0 points on 15.3 shots. Hardaway averaged 14.5 points on 11.5 shots. So the extra 3.8 shots yielded 3.5 points. You don't need to be a genius to see how bad that is.

joec32033
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7/8/2017  10:40 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
Andrew wrote:This is my opinion on what is happening with the Knicks, and to me its all about KP and what he wants and not so much about Melo. If KP was happy with the direction under Phil, I think Phil would still be here, but that relationship seemed at an impasse and so Phil had to go. KP seems like he wants to be more of the focal point, and that is OK...the Knicks should probably move in that direction. I think JP also wants to be on a team that wins....and that is why he was upset with the Melo situation. Put pieces in place where he can see a chance to win over the next 2 years and he stays. Tear it down completely and suck for 2 years and I think he leaves.

Knicks are going to have to balance the youth movement with at least a decent amount of wins, or at least convince KP that he the organization is heading in the right direction.

Thoughts?

I think this is true. The direction is very clear. We are rebuilding, but not tanking. Some fans put it hand and hand and are obsessed with tanking. Mills is investing in Hardaway as the SG for the next 7-8 years. Right now he is an average starter/high level 6th man. The downside is overpaying for that. The upside is he develops into an above average starting SG. This team is being built around KP, Ntilikina, Willy, and Hardaway. 4 guys aged 25 and under. That's a nice foundation. KP could be the franchise player most rebuilding teams search for and struggle to find. We have that. Ntilikina and Hardaway are the backcourt of the future and seem to have skillets that compliment each other (and Porzingis) very well. It stands to be seen if Willy is a starter or a high level 6th man. But either way, there is a foundation for now and the future that can grow together. Guys like Baker and Dobson can form a nice guard rotation off the bench. I can see a plan here. The money was a little crazy for Hardaway, but it's a clear investment into this youth movement that we needed.

No people are trying to spin this into the rebuild, the rebuild is over. Our direction was to add TWO WAY TEAM PLAYERS as long term pieces(please hold three padagraph posts about Noah).

By signing Hardaway we are going back to our rich tradition of overpaying for iso players that can only score. And in this case even the scoring is somewhat questionable, he averaged 14 pts last season. And we are going to move Rose who averaged 18 to make room for him to play a position of non need. For all the hype about this kid any videos showing him pass the rock? How many assists does he average? While people are hung up on his potential "star" value, no one talks about his potential for being a black hole. This is a high risk, low/medium reward move.

When you add players for their "potential" you don't overpay. This ain't no rebuild.

Just to give this some perspective, Rose averaged 18.0 points on 15.3 shots. Hardaway averaged 14.5 points on 11.5 shots. So the extra 3.8 shots yielded 3.5 points. You don't need to be a genius to see how bad that is.

Different games. The max points on those almost 4 shots is 12 points. Rose never shot 3's. Worst case scenario is he makes say 2 of those 4 shots, 1 is a 3 the other a 2 point shot of some variety. So now he scores maybe 19/20 points on 15 shots with better spacing for other players to get involved.

Rose and Hardaway have 2 totally different games, comparing them is harder than doing a points per shot analysis.

~You can't run from who you are.~
meloshouldgo
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7/8/2017  10:43 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
Andrew wrote:This is my opinion on what is happening with the Knicks, and to me its all about KP and what he wants and not so much about Melo. If KP was happy with the direction under Phil, I think Phil would still be here, but that relationship seemed at an impasse and so Phil had to go. KP seems like he wants to be more of the focal point, and that is OK...the Knicks should probably move in that direction. I think JP also wants to be on a team that wins....and that is why he was upset with the Melo situation. Put pieces in place where he can see a chance to win over the next 2 years and he stays. Tear it down completely and suck for 2 years and I think he leaves.

Knicks are going to have to balance the youth movement with at least a decent amount of wins, or at least convince KP that he the organization is heading in the right direction.

Thoughts?

I think this is true. The direction is very clear. We are rebuilding, but not tanking. Some fans put it hand and hand and are obsessed with tanking. Mills is investing in Hardaway as the SG for the next 7-8 years. Right now he is an average starter/high level 6th man. The downside is overpaying for that. The upside is he develops into an above average starting SG. This team is being built around KP, Ntilikina, Willy, and Hardaway. 4 guys aged 25 and under. That's a nice foundation. KP could be the franchise player most rebuilding teams search for and struggle to find. We have that. Ntilikina and Hardaway are the backcourt of the future and seem to have skillets that compliment each other (and Porzingis) very well. It stands to be seen if Willy is a starter or a high level 6th man. But either way, there is a foundation for now and the future that can grow together. Guys like Baker and Dobson can form a nice guard rotation off the bench. I can see a plan here. The money was a little crazy for Hardaway, but it's a clear investment into this youth movement that we needed.

No people are trying to spin this into the rebuild, the rebuild is over. Our direction was to add TWO WAY TEAM PLAYERS as long term pieces(please hold three padagraph posts about Noah).

By signing Hardaway we are going back to our rich tradition of overpaying for iso players that can only score. And in this case even the scoring is somewhat questionable, he averaged 14 pts last season. And we are going to move Rose who averaged 18 to make room for him to play a position of non need. For all the hype about this kid any videos showing him pass the rock? How many assists does he average? While people are hung up on his potential "star" value, no one talks about his potential for being a black hole. This is a high risk, low/medium reward move.

When you add players for their "potential" you don't overpay. This ain't no rebuild.


I will gladly describe this as a rebuild, although we have to wait to see what happens with the rest of the transactions. It looks like for the first time in decades, we're focused on keeping picks and signing young players. You still looking at PPG? GMs stopped looking at volume stats like a decade ago. Why not just keep Melo if you value PPG so much?

Unlike you, I look at everything, and I don't value ones thing over another. I asked about whether he passes the ball and you respond with what stats people look at. Mills made one questionable move and you are ready to annoint him for holding on to picks and getting youth based on a sample size of one. You can call it what you like of course, for my part I think we are reverting to the dominant theme inKnicks basketball over the last 20 years. No defense iso heavy players randomly added with no actual plan and NOW with a bunch of hyperbole about motion offense and youth

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
ekstarks94
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7/8/2017  10:47 AM
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
Andrew wrote:This is my opinion on what is happening with the Knicks, and to me its all about KP and what he wants and not so much about Melo. If KP was happy with the direction under Phil, I think Phil would still be here, but that relationship seemed at an impasse and so Phil had to go. KP seems like he wants to be more of the focal point, and that is OK...the Knicks should probably move in that direction. I think JP also wants to be on a team that wins....and that is why he was upset with the Melo situation. Put pieces in place where he can see a chance to win over the next 2 years and he stays. Tear it down completely and suck for 2 years and I think he leaves.

Knicks are going to have to balance the youth movement with at least a decent amount of wins, or at least convince KP that he the organization is heading in the right direction.

Thoughts?

I think this is true. The direction is very clear. We are rebuilding, but not tanking. Some fans put it hand and hand and are obsessed with tanking. Mills is investing in Hardaway as the SG for the next 7-8 years. Right now he is an average starter/high level 6th man. The downside is overpaying for that. The upside is he develops into an above average starting SG. This team is being built around KP, Ntilikina, Willy, and Hardaway. 4 guys aged 25 and under. That's a nice foundation. KP could be the franchise player most rebuilding teams search for and struggle to find. We have that. Ntilikina and Hardaway are the backcourt of the future and seem to have skillets that compliment each other (and Porzingis) very well. It stands to be seen if Willy is a starter or a high level 6th man. But either way, there is a foundation for now and the future that can grow together. Guys like Baker and Dobson can form a nice guard rotation off the bench. I can see a plan here. The money was a little crazy for Hardaway, but it's a clear investment into this youth movement that we needed.

No people are trying to spin this into the rebuild, the rebuild is over. Our direction was to add TWO WAY TEAM PLAYERS as long term pieces(please hold three padagraph posts about Noah).

By signing Hardaway we are going back to our rich tradition of overpaying for iso players that can only score. And in this case even the scoring is somewhat questionable, he averaged 14 pts last season. And we are going to move Rose who averaged 18 to make room for him to play a position of non need. For all the hype about this kid any videos showing him pass the rock? How many assists does he average? While people are hung up on his potential "star" value, no one talks about his potential for being a black hole. This is a high risk, low/medium reward move.

When you add players for their "potential" you don't overpay. This ain't no rebuild.

You always overpay for RFAs....always...this includes the incumbent team...and more so...the team trying to lure them away....

Otto Porter is not a 100 mill player...but he got that because someone is going to pay him that...

Bonn1997
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7/8/2017  10:48 AM
joec32033 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
Andrew wrote:This is my opinion on what is happening with the Knicks, and to me its all about KP and what he wants and not so much about Melo. If KP was happy with the direction under Phil, I think Phil would still be here, but that relationship seemed at an impasse and so Phil had to go. KP seems like he wants to be more of the focal point, and that is OK...the Knicks should probably move in that direction. I think JP also wants to be on a team that wins....and that is why he was upset with the Melo situation. Put pieces in place where he can see a chance to win over the next 2 years and he stays. Tear it down completely and suck for 2 years and I think he leaves.

Knicks are going to have to balance the youth movement with at least a decent amount of wins, or at least convince KP that he the organization is heading in the right direction.

Thoughts?

I think this is true. The direction is very clear. We are rebuilding, but not tanking. Some fans put it hand and hand and are obsessed with tanking. Mills is investing in Hardaway as the SG for the next 7-8 years. Right now he is an average starter/high level 6th man. The downside is overpaying for that. The upside is he develops into an above average starting SG. This team is being built around KP, Ntilikina, Willy, and Hardaway. 4 guys aged 25 and under. That's a nice foundation. KP could be the franchise player most rebuilding teams search for and struggle to find. We have that. Ntilikina and Hardaway are the backcourt of the future and seem to have skillets that compliment each other (and Porzingis) very well. It stands to be seen if Willy is a starter or a high level 6th man. But either way, there is a foundation for now and the future that can grow together. Guys like Baker and Dobson can form a nice guard rotation off the bench. I can see a plan here. The money was a little crazy for Hardaway, but it's a clear investment into this youth movement that we needed.

No people are trying to spin this into the rebuild, the rebuild is over. Our direction was to add TWO WAY TEAM PLAYERS as long term pieces(please hold three padagraph posts about Noah).

By signing Hardaway we are going back to our rich tradition of overpaying for iso players that can only score. And in this case even the scoring is somewhat questionable, he averaged 14 pts last season. And we are going to move Rose who averaged 18 to make room for him to play a position of non need. For all the hype about this kid any videos showing him pass the rock? How many assists does he average? While people are hung up on his potential "star" value, no one talks about his potential for being a black hole. This is a high risk, low/medium reward move.

When you add players for their "potential" you don't overpay. This ain't no rebuild.

Just to give this some perspective, Rose averaged 18.0 points on 15.3 shots. Hardaway averaged 14.5 points on 11.5 shots. So the extra 3.8 shots yielded 3.5 points. You don't need to be a genius to see how bad that is.

Different games. The max points on those almost 4 shots is 12 points. Rose never shot 3's. Worst case scenario is he makes say 2 of those 4 shots, 1 is a 3 the other a 2 point shot of some variety. So now he scores maybe 19/20 points on 15 shots with better spacing for other players to get involved.

Rose and Hardaway have 2 totally different games, comparing them is harder than doing a points per shot analysis.


They are different games. Ross's is inefficient chucking that I want no part of. No matter what kind of shots you take, if they don't go in at a good rate you're hurting your team.
Bonn1997
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7/8/2017  10:52 AM
meloshouldgo wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
Andrew wrote:This is my opinion on what is happening with the Knicks, and to me its all about KP and what he wants and not so much about Melo. If KP was happy with the direction under Phil, I think Phil would still be here, but that relationship seemed at an impasse and so Phil had to go. KP seems like he wants to be more of the focal point, and that is OK...the Knicks should probably move in that direction. I think JP also wants to be on a team that wins....and that is why he was upset with the Melo situation. Put pieces in place where he can see a chance to win over the next 2 years and he stays. Tear it down completely and suck for 2 years and I think he leaves.

Knicks are going to have to balance the youth movement with at least a decent amount of wins, or at least convince KP that he the organization is heading in the right direction.

Thoughts?

I think this is true. The direction is very clear. We are rebuilding, but not tanking. Some fans put it hand and hand and are obsessed with tanking. Mills is investing in Hardaway as the SG for the next 7-8 years. Right now he is an average starter/high level 6th man. The downside is overpaying for that. The upside is he develops into an above average starting SG. This team is being built around KP, Ntilikina, Willy, and Hardaway. 4 guys aged 25 and under. That's a nice foundation. KP could be the franchise player most rebuilding teams search for and struggle to find. We have that. Ntilikina and Hardaway are the backcourt of the future and seem to have skillets that compliment each other (and Porzingis) very well. It stands to be seen if Willy is a starter or a high level 6th man. But either way, there is a foundation for now and the future that can grow together. Guys like Baker and Dobson can form a nice guard rotation off the bench. I can see a plan here. The money was a little crazy for Hardaway, but it's a clear investment into this youth movement that we needed.

No people are trying to spin this into the rebuild, the rebuild is over. Our direction was to add TWO WAY TEAM PLAYERS as long term pieces(please hold three padagraph posts about Noah).

By signing Hardaway we are going back to our rich tradition of overpaying for iso players that can only score. And in this case even the scoring is somewhat questionable, he averaged 14 pts last season. And we are going to move Rose who averaged 18 to make room for him to play a position of non need. For all the hype about this kid any videos showing him pass the rock? How many assists does he average? While people are hung up on his potential "star" value, no one talks about his potential for being a black hole. This is a high risk, low/medium reward move.

When you add players for their "potential" you don't overpay. This ain't no rebuild.


I will gladly describe this as a rebuild, although we have to wait to see what happens with the rest of the transactions. It looks like for the first time in decades, we're focused on keeping picks and signing young players. You still looking at PPG? GMs stopped looking at volume stats like a decade ago. Why not just keep Melo if you value PPG so much?

Unlike you, I look at everything, and I don't value ones thing over another. I asked about whether he passes the ball and you respond with what stats people look at. Mills made one questionable move and you are ready to annoint him for holding on to picks and getting youth based on a sample size of one. You can call it what you like of course, for my part I think we are reverting to the dominant theme inKnicks basketball over the last 20 years. No defense iso heavy players randomly added with no actual plan and NOW with a bunch of hyperbole about motion offense and youth


Oh my. Virtually everything you posted is wrong. Sample size of one? I specifically mentioned we have to wait to see what the future transactions are. No defense? I think you're clueless about Hardway's game. You're either unaware of or ignoring all the available data. Assists? His primary role is to score but 3.0 assists against 1.8 turnovers per 36 is pretty good anyway.
ekstarks94
Posts: 21062
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Member: #6104

7/8/2017  10:55 AM
meloshouldgo wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
Andrew wrote:This is my opinion on what is happening with the Knicks, and to me its all about KP and what he wants and not so much about Melo. If KP was happy with the direction under Phil, I think Phil would still be here, but that relationship seemed at an impasse and so Phil had to go. KP seems like he wants to be more of the focal point, and that is OK...the Knicks should probably move in that direction. I think JP also wants to be on a team that wins....and that is why he was upset with the Melo situation. Put pieces in place where he can see a chance to win over the next 2 years and he stays. Tear it down completely and suck for 2 years and I think he leaves.

Knicks are going to have to balance the youth movement with at least a decent amount of wins, or at least convince KP that he the organization is heading in the right direction.

Thoughts?

I think this is true. The direction is very clear. We are rebuilding, but not tanking. Some fans put it hand and hand and are obsessed with tanking. Mills is investing in Hardaway as the SG for the next 7-8 years. Right now he is an average starter/high level 6th man. The downside is overpaying for that. The upside is he develops into an above average starting SG. This team is being built around KP, Ntilikina, Willy, and Hardaway. 4 guys aged 25 and under. That's a nice foundation. KP could be the franchise player most rebuilding teams search for and struggle to find. We have that. Ntilikina and Hardaway are the backcourt of the future and seem to have skillets that compliment each other (and Porzingis) very well. It stands to be seen if Willy is a starter or a high level 6th man. But either way, there is a foundation for now and the future that can grow together. Guys like Baker and Dobson can form a nice guard rotation off the bench. I can see a plan here. The money was a little crazy for Hardaway, but it's a clear investment into this youth movement that we needed.

No people are trying to spin this into the rebuild, the rebuild is over. Our direction was to add TWO WAY TEAM PLAYERS as long term pieces(please hold three padagraph posts about Noah).

By signing Hardaway we are going back to our rich tradition of overpaying for iso players that can only score. And in this case even the scoring is somewhat questionable, he averaged 14 pts last season. And we are going to move Rose who averaged 18 to make room for him to play a position of non need. For all the hype about this kid any videos showing him pass the rock? How many assists does he average? While people are hung up on his potential "star" value, no one talks about his potential for being a black hole. This is a high risk, low/medium reward move.

When you add players for their "potential" you don't overpay. This ain't no rebuild.


I will gladly describe this as a rebuild, although we have to wait to see what happens with the rest of the transactions. It looks like for the first time in decades, we're focused on keeping picks and signing young players. You still looking at PPG? GMs stopped looking at volume stats like a decade ago. Why not just keep Melo if you value PPG so much?

Unlike you, I look at everything, and I don't value ones thing over another. I asked about whether he passes the ball and you respond with what stats people look at. Mills made one questionable move and you are ready to annoint him for holding on to picks and getting youth based on a sample size of one. You can call it what you like of course, for my part I think we are reverting to the dominant theme inKnicks basketball over the last 20 years. No defense iso heavy players randomly added with no actual plan and NOW with a bunch of hyperbole about motion offense and youth

Who would you rather get...Tyreke....that guy is a shell of himself...and he was not coming HERE...for 3 mill.....Rose is a heads down player....no pass looking for shot first second and third....who else....

ISO heavy....Melo is ISO heavy...that is in the rear view mirror.....

Right now Mills has the right idea...long athletes that can put the ball on the floor stretch the floor with the 3 and be pushed to play some semblance of defense...

Knicks fans are sometimes like a bitter divorcée.....want the kids...the house...and the fking tree too..

joec32033
Posts: 30616
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7/8/2017  10:56 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
joec32033 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
Andrew wrote:This is my opinion on what is happening with the Knicks, and to me its all about KP and what he wants and not so much about Melo. If KP was happy with the direction under Phil, I think Phil would still be here, but that relationship seemed at an impasse and so Phil had to go. KP seems like he wants to be more of the focal point, and that is OK...the Knicks should probably move in that direction. I think JP also wants to be on a team that wins....and that is why he was upset with the Melo situation. Put pieces in place where he can see a chance to win over the next 2 years and he stays. Tear it down completely and suck for 2 years and I think he leaves.

Knicks are going to have to balance the youth movement with at least a decent amount of wins, or at least convince KP that he the organization is heading in the right direction.

Thoughts?

I think this is true. The direction is very clear. We are rebuilding, but not tanking. Some fans put it hand and hand and are obsessed with tanking. Mills is investing in Hardaway as the SG for the next 7-8 years. Right now he is an average starter/high level 6th man. The downside is overpaying for that. The upside is he develops into an above average starting SG. This team is being built around KP, Ntilikina, Willy, and Hardaway. 4 guys aged 25 and under. That's a nice foundation. KP could be the franchise player most rebuilding teams search for and struggle to find. We have that. Ntilikina and Hardaway are the backcourt of the future and seem to have skillets that compliment each other (and Porzingis) very well. It stands to be seen if Willy is a starter or a high level 6th man. But either way, there is a foundation for now and the future that can grow together. Guys like Baker and Dobson can form a nice guard rotation off the bench. I can see a plan here. The money was a little crazy for Hardaway, but it's a clear investment into this youth movement that we needed.

No people are trying to spin this into the rebuild, the rebuild is over. Our direction was to add TWO WAY TEAM PLAYERS as long term pieces(please hold three padagraph posts about Noah).

By signing Hardaway we are going back to our rich tradition of overpaying for iso players that can only score. And in this case even the scoring is somewhat questionable, he averaged 14 pts last season. And we are going to move Rose who averaged 18 to make room for him to play a position of non need. For all the hype about this kid any videos showing him pass the rock? How many assists does he average? While people are hung up on his potential "star" value, no one talks about his potential for being a black hole. This is a high risk, low/medium reward move.

When you add players for their "potential" you don't overpay. This ain't no rebuild.

Just to give this some perspective, Rose averaged 18.0 points on 15.3 shots. Hardaway averaged 14.5 points on 11.5 shots. So the extra 3.8 shots yielded 3.5 points. You don't need to be a genius to see how bad that is.

Different games. The max points on those almost 4 shots is 12 points. Rose never shot 3's. Worst case scenario is he makes say 2 of those 4 shots, 1 is a 3 the other a 2 point shot of some variety. So now he scores maybe 19/20 points on 15 shots with better spacing for other players to get involved.

Rose and Hardaway have 2 totally different games, comparing them is harder than doing a points per shot analysis.


They are different games. Ross's is inefficient chucking that I want no part of. No matter what kind of shots you take, if they don't go in at a good rate you're hurting your team.

I'm confused. I don't care about Rose per se. You compared Hardaway to Rose unfavorably, and i think your comparison is off.

~You can't run from who you are.~
Bonn1997
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7/8/2017  11:21 AM    LAST EDITED: 7/8/2017  11:24 AM
joec32033 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
joec32033 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
Andrew wrote:This is my opinion on what is happening with the Knicks, and to me its all about KP and what he wants and not so much about Melo. If KP was happy with the direction under Phil, I think Phil would still be here, but that relationship seemed at an impasse and so Phil had to go. KP seems like he wants to be more of the focal point, and that is OK...the Knicks should probably move in that direction. I think JP also wants to be on a team that wins....and that is why he was upset with the Melo situation. Put pieces in place where he can see a chance to win over the next 2 years and he stays. Tear it down completely and suck for 2 years and I think he leaves.

Knicks are going to have to balance the youth movement with at least a decent amount of wins, or at least convince KP that he the organization is heading in the right direction.

Thoughts?

I think this is true. The direction is very clear. We are rebuilding, but not tanking. Some fans put it hand and hand and are obsessed with tanking. Mills is investing in Hardaway as the SG for the next 7-8 years. Right now he is an average starter/high level 6th man. The downside is overpaying for that. The upside is he develops into an above average starting SG. This team is being built around KP, Ntilikina, Willy, and Hardaway. 4 guys aged 25 and under. That's a nice foundation. KP could be the franchise player most rebuilding teams search for and struggle to find. We have that. Ntilikina and Hardaway are the backcourt of the future and seem to have skillets that compliment each other (and Porzingis) very well. It stands to be seen if Willy is a starter or a high level 6th man. But either way, there is a foundation for now and the future that can grow together. Guys like Baker and Dobson can form a nice guard rotation off the bench. I can see a plan here. The money was a little crazy for Hardaway, but it's a clear investment into this youth movement that we needed.

No people are trying to spin this into the rebuild, the rebuild is over. Our direction was to add TWO WAY TEAM PLAYERS as long term pieces(please hold three padagraph posts about Noah).

By signing Hardaway we are going back to our rich tradition of overpaying for iso players that can only score. And in this case even the scoring is somewhat questionable, he averaged 14 pts last season. And we are going to move Rose who averaged 18 to make room for him to play a position of non need. For all the hype about this kid any videos showing him pass the rock? How many assists does he average? While people are hung up on his potential "star" value, no one talks about his potential for being a black hole. This is a high risk, low/medium reward move.

When you add players for their "potential" you don't overpay. This ain't no rebuild.

Just to give this some perspective, Rose averaged 18.0 points on 15.3 shots. Hardaway averaged 14.5 points on 11.5 shots. So the extra 3.8 shots yielded 3.5 points. You don't need to be a genius to see how bad that is.

Different games. The max points on those almost 4 shots is 12 points. Rose never shot 3's. Worst case scenario is he makes say 2 of those 4 shots, 1 is a 3 the other a 2 point shot of some variety. So now he scores maybe 19/20 points on 15 shots with better spacing for other players to get involved.

Rose and Hardaway have 2 totally different games, comparing them is harder than doing a points per shot analysis.


They are different games. Ross's is inefficient chucking that I want no part of. No matter what kind of shots you take, if they don't go in at a good rate you're hurting your team.

I'm confused. I don't care about Rose per se. You compared Hardaway to Rose unfavorably, and i think your comparison is off.


I replied to Meloshouldgo's comparison of Rose and Hardaway. If you value volume scoring, of course you'll think my comparison is way off. Rose brings nothing that I want. If Rose could take and make 3s and bring 20 points on 15 shots (your "worst" case scenario), I'd like him more. That's an alternate universe though.
Sinix
Posts: 20452
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7/8/2017  11:27 AM
ekstarks94 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
Andrew wrote:This is my opinion on what is happening with the Knicks, and to me its all about KP and what he wants and not so much about Melo. If KP was happy with the direction under Phil, I think Phil would still be here, but that relationship seemed at an impasse and so Phil had to go. KP seems like he wants to be more of the focal point, and that is OK...the Knicks should probably move in that direction. I think JP also wants to be on a team that wins....and that is why he was upset with the Melo situation. Put pieces in place where he can see a chance to win over the next 2 years and he stays. Tear it down completely and suck for 2 years and I think he leaves.

Knicks are going to have to balance the youth movement with at least a decent amount of wins, or at least convince KP that he the organization is heading in the right direction.

Thoughts?

I think this is true. The direction is very clear. We are rebuilding, but not tanking. Some fans put it hand and hand and are obsessed with tanking. Mills is investing in Hardaway as the SG for the next 7-8 years. Right now he is an average starter/high level 6th man. The downside is overpaying for that. The upside is he develops into an above average starting SG. This team is being built around KP, Ntilikina, Willy, and Hardaway. 4 guys aged 25 and under. That's a nice foundation. KP could be the franchise player most rebuilding teams search for and struggle to find. We have that. Ntilikina and Hardaway are the backcourt of the future and seem to have skillets that compliment each other (and Porzingis) very well. It stands to be seen if Willy is a starter or a high level 6th man. But either way, there is a foundation for now and the future that can grow together. Guys like Baker and Dobson can form a nice guard rotation off the bench. I can see a plan here. The money was a little crazy for Hardaway, but it's a clear investment into this youth movement that we needed.

No people are trying to spin this into the rebuild, the rebuild is over. Our direction was to add TWO WAY TEAM PLAYERS as long term pieces(please hold three padagraph posts about Noah).

By signing Hardaway we are going back to our rich tradition of overpaying for iso players that can only score. And in this case even the scoring is somewhat questionable, he averaged 14 pts last season. And we are going to move Rose who averaged 18 to make room for him to play a position of non need. For all the hype about this kid any videos showing him pass the rock? How many assists does he average? While people are hung up on his potential "star" value, no one talks about his potential for being a black hole. This is a high risk, low/medium reward move.

When you add players for their "potential" you don't overpay. This ain't no rebuild.


I will gladly describe this as a rebuild, although we have to wait to see what happens with the rest of the transactions. It looks like for the first time in decades, we're focused on keeping picks and signing young players. You still looking at PPG? GMs stopped looking at volume stats like a decade ago. Why not just keep Melo if you value PPG so much?

Unlike you, I look at everything, and I don't value ones thing over another. I asked about whether he passes the ball and you respond with what stats people look at. Mills made one questionable move and you are ready to annoint him for holding on to picks and getting youth based on a sample size of one. You can call it what you like of course, for my part I think we are reverting to the dominant theme inKnicks basketball over the last 20 years. No defense iso heavy players randomly added with no actual plan and NOW with a bunch of hyperbole about motion offense and youth

Who would you rather get...Tyreke....that guy is a shell of himself...and he was not coming HERE...for 3 mill.....Rose is a heads down player....no pass looking for shot first second and third....who else....

ISO heavy....Melo is ISO heavy...that is in the rear view mirror.....

Right now Mills has the right idea...long athletes that can put the ball on the floor stretch the floor with the 3 and be pushed to play some semblance of defense...

Knicks fans are sometimes like a bitter divorcée.....want the kids...the house...and the fking tree too..

Knicks fans just want competency and this off season has been an utter nightmare.

Nalod
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7/8/2017  11:31 AM
Sinix wrote:There's a starbury and Isiah Thomas feel to this Knicks team that makes me very sad that we have come full circle.

bad weed does that.

meloshouldgo
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7/8/2017  8:06 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
Andrew wrote:This is my opinion on what is happening with the Knicks, and to me its all about KP and what he wants and not so much about Melo. If KP was happy with the direction under Phil, I think Phil would still be here, but that relationship seemed at an impasse and so Phil had to go. KP seems like he wants to be more of the focal point, and that is OK...the Knicks should probably move in that direction. I think JP also wants to be on a team that wins....and that is why he was upset with the Melo situation. Put pieces in place where he can see a chance to win over the next 2 years and he stays. Tear it down completely and suck for 2 years and I think he leaves.

Knicks are going to have to balance the youth movement with at least a decent amount of wins, or at least convince KP that he the organization is heading in the right direction.

Thoughts?

I think this is true. The direction is very clear. We are rebuilding, but not tanking. Some fans put it hand and hand and are obsessed with tanking. Mills is investing in Hardaway as the SG for the next 7-8 years. Right now he is an average starter/high level 6th man. The downside is overpaying for that. The upside is he develops into an above average starting SG. This team is being built around KP, Ntilikina, Willy, and Hardaway. 4 guys aged 25 and under. That's a nice foundation. KP could be the franchise player most rebuilding teams search for and struggle to find. We have that. Ntilikina and Hardaway are the backcourt of the future and seem to have skillets that compliment each other (and Porzingis) very well. It stands to be seen if Willy is a starter or a high level 6th man. But either way, there is a foundation for now and the future that can grow together. Guys like Baker and Dobson can form a nice guard rotation off the bench. I can see a plan here. The money was a little crazy for Hardaway, but it's a clear investment into this youth movement that we needed.

No people are trying to spin this into the rebuild, the rebuild is over. Our direction was to add TWO WAY TEAM PLAYERS as long term pieces(please hold three padagraph posts about Noah).

By signing Hardaway we are going back to our rich tradition of overpaying for iso players that can only score. And in this case even the scoring is somewhat questionable, he averaged 14 pts last season. And we are going to move Rose who averaged 18 to make room for him to play a position of non need. For all the hype about this kid any videos showing him pass the rock? How many assists does he average? While people are hung up on his potential "star" value, no one talks about his potential for being a black hole. This is a high risk, low/medium reward move.

When you add players for their "potential" you don't overpay. This ain't no rebuild.


I will gladly describe this as a rebuild, although we have to wait to see what happens with the rest of the transactions. It looks like for the first time in decades, we're focused on keeping picks and signing young players. You still looking at PPG? GMs stopped looking at volume stats like a decade ago. Why not just keep Melo if you value PPG so much?

Unlike you, I look at everything, and I don't value ones thing over another. I asked about whether he passes the ball and you respond with what stats people look at. Mills made one questionable move and you are ready to annoint him for holding on to picks and getting youth based on a sample size of one. You can call it what you like of course, for my part I think we are reverting to the dominant theme inKnicks basketball over the last 20 years. No defense iso heavy players randomly added with no actual plan and NOW with a bunch of hyperbole about motion offense and youth


Oh my. Virtually everything you posted is wrong. Sample size of one? I specifically mentioned we have to wait to see what the future transactions are. No defense? I think you're clueless about Hardway's game. You're either unaware of or ignoring all the available data. Assists? His primary role is to score but 3.0 assists against 1.8 turnovers per 36 is pretty good anyway.

Maybe - your post read more like you were praising Mills than you were saying let's wait and see. And yes so far he has done one precious FA signing that makes a sample size of 1. His assists are not impressive but the question was really about whether he moves the ball or not - and I have seen a lot of video I admit but it doesn't seem like he does. You are just happy because he is a more efficient scorer, that's fine. I put more value on unselfish team players. As for defense I guess we will see - exactly how his defense carries over from a good defensive team to a bad one. Most advance stats work well when you compare players within the same team - when you compare across teams I think they require a much bigger leap of faith than I am willing to make.

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
TripleThreat
Posts: 23106
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7/8/2017  11:49 PM
Andrew wrote:Thoughts?


Issues of current concern

A) "Appeasement" in NBA history, esp in the modern era and given the marketplace environment, just tends to not work out. Dwight Howard in Orlando ( Otis Smith making bad deals to try to get him to reup) Kobe trying to force the team to get Luol Deng or move Andrew Bynum for anything else, all the way up to playing chicken in a trade demand to the Bulls. McHale under orders to give Kevin Garnett guys like Marko Jaric and Troy Hudson because Garnett wanted them. Riley digging for Shabazz Napier because LeBron demanded it. Tristan Thompson getting an outrageous deal because he shares the same agent as LBJ. Riley signing Mike Miller and paying off Haslem instead of going for a center because they were buddies with LBJ and Wade. Payton holding Seattle's Gund hostage. Danny Ferry on his knees to LBJ during the first Cavs stint. Latrell Sprewell winning an ugly war with Tim Hardaway where the last bits of RunTMC was traded off. The list is vast and painful and honestly it's just bad business. Utah had it right. Deron Williams drove Jerry Sloan out, and instead of just accepting it all and bending the knee to Williams, they dumped him in a trade. And it was his demands in NJ that created a push to make the historically bad trades with Boston to gut their team.

It just sends the wrong message. As a matter of principle, for the greater good of the franchise, I fully believe the Knicks need to trade Zinger at this years deadline.

B) Steve Mills has more incentive to make long term bad moves that might have short term payoffs, because his job is clearly on the line. When Jackson was here, Phil took all the brunt of it. If things went bad, it fell on Phil Jackson. ( And rightfully so...) But now it's all on Mills. Billy Beane said it best, the danger for any front office decision maker in pro sports is to be on the edge of keeping his job, and worrying more about keeping his job today than building the team for tomorrow. The Knicks would have been better off just dumping Mills too, and starting over in their front office. We all saw it with Mike Tannebaum and the Jets, a guy who knew he was close to getting fired and making moves to preserve his job first and foremost. Tom Coughlin was also under that kind of gun when the Giants spiraled. To make a bad long term move to get a short quick fix. ( Why care, you won't be there four years anyway...)

C) I've said this before in various threads, an early stage full on NBA rebuild job literally writes it's own script. There just aren't many mechanisms to get better so your hand is almost forced in most cases.

Yes, tanking guarantees nothing. But what other choice is there? There really is no other choice in the NBA marketplace. People point to the Spurs or Warriors, who strategically tanked for Tim Duncan and Harrison Barnes. It might not have been year after year, but every franchise faces this crossroads at some point.

Bite the bullet now. It's like a rotting tooth, just pull the f**ker out. Why sit for years and let the rot fester and drive you insane. You are going to have to pull it out anyway, might as well be now.

Hardaway JR is a complex move, in that he fits many of the checkboxes for a rebuilding team. But that poison pill makes it harder to retrade him, which needs to a critical factor in anyone the Knicks sign. Converting used cap space to assets is a positive rebuilding strategy. ( Trading Robin Lopez was not the most horrible thing in the world, what they traded him for specifically was the most horrible thing in the world. If the Knicks had managed that trade more practically, it could have ended up a net positive for the team.) The Knicks just seem to fail to do it right.

The Knicks make the simple just more insanely hard than it has to be.

There is some intern on some team just out of college who could run the Knicks better now that it has been ran in the last decade. That's how sad the situation is right now.

As Mike from Breaking Bad says, no half measures. This team, IMHO, needs to trade Zinger and gut Mills and everyone else in the front office and just start from scratch. The tooth is rotting. Just pull the damn thing out. That should be simple, but the Knicks, they just seem to embrace this bizarre masochism.

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