Sangfroid wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:I would rather have Ron Baker be our long term PG than this guy. He had no concept of seeing up an offense. All he can do is drive and kick out and even twin he had no idea where his teammates are. I still don't understand why people fail in love with these shoot first players especially after seeing how badly they work out.

Ron Baker is, and will always be, a backup PG. We're looking to get something that's a bit more. Not a backup for Baker.

I know he is, my comment was that's how or a PG I think Dennis Smith is. And I am using "PG" in the traditional sense. Person who brings up the ball and sets up the offense.

fishmike wrote:At first I was skeptical but Im starting to think I can see a guy like this playing very well for us. Jeff likes to push the pace and has applauded any time a Knick attacks in transition. That certainly fits Smith's game. Half court is a different story, but with guys like Baker and Lee who are bigger guards who can defend 2s and handle the ball some you can run Smith off the ball where his cuts are impossible to follow.

Once we moved out of #7, I stopped thinking that Fox or Isaac are possibilities for us.

I assume that both Smith and Frank will be available, but if one moves up, I expect it will be Smith, who I think has more "sex appeal" for teams. If this happens someone we like might drop...but who knows.

This is a deep draft from 1-10, IMO...and as I've said many times, I think we will get a quality player at 8.

nixluva wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Frank Jackson

Bigger and stronger than all of these guys. Much more of a PG than Monk(who is not) Doesnt have the bad habits of a Smith--played in a team system at Duke--was forced off the ball too much--but learned quality team play that Smith did not. I think he has the best 3 point shot out of all 4 for the NBA and IMHO will be more able to take it to the hoop than Frank N and Monk. Willing defender--has the physical tools. Put together--he already has NBA body.
Big shoulders big ass long arms. Showed at combine he could handle and pass when given the chance--he mustve taken instruction well--and you want that--hes a blank slate.

Smith is a bit of an enigma but Frank Jackson is even more of a question mark! Why is it that Jackson isn't considered more seriously? Smith was in a bad situation that you can explain some of his issues. Jackson has all the tools but from what I've read he's said to be more of a SG in mentality. Still have to wonder how come Jackson isn't up there with Smith in ranking. Perhaps you should do a thread making the case for Jackson.

Why not take both?

Trade for a couple of later Portland picks and you're good to go. Nicky, Johnson, Justin

Lee and LT for Crabbe, 15 and 20 works.

Knicks keep Melo as 6th man, Randle, Baker, Jackson, and Franky or Smithers give you depth and redundancy in case of injury. Resign Holiday.

Pretty good depth and a big boost to a youth movement.

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TripleThreat wrote:

sidneydeane wrote:Why do ppl compare DSjr to rose like its a bad thing? Remember that rose was the best guard in the L for a couple seasons youngest ever MVP etc. If rose was getting drafted this year he would be no1 no question

Because it means he's a low BBIQ guy who won't develop his game. He can get to the rim. He can take over a game in spurts. He can show flashes of a superstar level player.

He's also a diva who can't really read the floor and doesn't understand the basic push/pull to running a functional offense. Joe Dumars is the gold standard for a guard who simply understood how to burn a little harder to score, or hang back and focus on different/smaller/less counting stats oriented things to help a team win. Smith is a knucklehead who takes bad shots and doesn't understand why they are bad shots. Worse, he just doesn't care.

I knew a guy who married a straight up slut. She literally saw more dong in her college years than a urinal at Grand Central Station. It was like a game. He had to stay on top of her, always be vigilante, always mate guarding, to make sure she basically didn't end up with another dudes meat sausage down her throat every other week. She eventually cheated on him. Of course she did. Why did the scorpion sting the frog across the river, making them both drown? Because that's his nature. At some point, someone just told him, if you don't want the stress of keeping someone civil by constantly babysitting their entire life, how about not marrying a whore in the first place?

A NBA player with a lousy knucklehead attitude is like trying to ring up a whore. Sure, if you have the most perfect kind of environment, where you have to basically treat them like a child, then maybe you can extract some value out of the situation. But is the juice worth the squeeze?

We all saw Lawrence Taylor change the way the NFL sees the linebacker position. He was also a psychopath and a coke head. Can you imagine how good he could have been, and he was a true HOFer, if he was actually taking care of himself? But people tolerated his nose candy and his issues and temper, because he was the best. DSJ just is not talented enough to deal with the drama and knucklehead issue.

This current Knicks franchise is not in a position to take the wayward players out there and try to stabilize them. When Dallas and Rick Carlisle could civilize guys like Vince Carter and Al Aminu, that's an entirely different situation. Maybe they could civilize DSJ.

Same old story in sports. Could be a superstar, if he wasn't such a gigantic @sshole first and foremost.

Lots of talent in this kid. Could have the ceiling to be a franchise player. But you don't ring up a whore. Please let the Knicks pass on this kid.

You really need to stop with all the nonsense.

newyorknewyork wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

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Would be great if we could draft Smith for the 76ers and they can draft Jackson for us. But they will probably want the right to swap future picks which will be tough.

If 76ers pass on Jackson for Fox or Smith. Then we need to see if we can eat Knights contract in order to swap 8 and 4 and land Jackson.

Smith might not be there at 8. NBA teams crave PNR PGs. Smith might be favored due to being a PG.

That was my immediate reaction as well. I think it all hinges on what we do with Melo. A 3-team trade with the Clippers and Thunder that sends Melo to the Clippers, Courtney Lee and Austin Rivers to OKC, and Oladipo and Jamal Crawford to us, might give us what we need to move up in the draft. I think the Sixers would definitely be interested in Oladipo as well as Smith Jr., Frank Ntilikina or Malik Monk at 8.

At 3, I think the obvious choice is Josh Jackson who could play in a multitude of systems....so if Phil isn't here in 2 years, we can still have a cornerstone to continue to grow with.

NardDogNation wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://www.twitter.com/SBondyNYDN/status/867526157184491521

If there is a kernel of truth to that, we might have the means to trade up. An asset plus a pick that could produce Dennis Smith could get us up to 3 to take Josh Jackson. That'd be the ideal in this draft.

nixluva wrote:IMO the Knicks will have good options no matter how things shake out in the top 7! DSJ would be an upgrade. Jeff has experience working with guards like DSJ. I Don't see a problem there.

DSJ sulks. He simply gives up on defense. He plays down to his mercurial mood and temper. He is completely inconsistent. His shot selection is pretty atrocious. If he was simply committed to being the best player he could be, giving a full 150 percent at all times and played true team ball, he'd be the top pick in this draft simply from a raw talent perspective. The problem is not so much what he can't do, it's what he won't do. You can't teach someone to just plain care.

Can DSJ be a superstar? Yes, on a specific team with a specific situation, that must stabilize him, and accept that he could easily create a net negative situation ( gives up as much as he gets, mostly because of the indifference and apathy) It doesn't matter the players raw talent base, you have to look at a players commitment to basic fundamentals. I thought ARod was a headache for the Yankees at times, but he was a very fundamentally sound player. He took the effort and time to do the little things to be a complete ball player. He was not perfect, he certainly didn't help all the time in the playoffs or clutch, but you didn't have to bag him on whether he was going to give you full effort.

DSJ is getting a soft pass because his coaching situation was horrible in college and because he had the ACL problem.

Most people only see the Latrell Sprewell legacy from the Knicks side. After he choked his coach, the Warriors ended up with the first overall pick in the draft. They could have taken Garnett, instead they took the steady and reliable Joe Smith.

Was that a horrible decision? From a talent level, sure, but can you see the Warriors perspective from the given time and place?

The Knicks could spend the next two years with a NTC player who refuses to play team ball who is content to shotjack and not care. Plus they might be stuck with aging no experience team runner who is pushing a complicated offense no one wants who is at war with his NTC player. The young core player, Zinger, doesn't even seem to want to be here. The owner is well hated by fans and people around teh league alike.

DSJ could be a star. It won't happen here. This is not a situation conducive to a player who turns on how much he cares or how much effort he gives like a light switch.

If he was a generational type player prospect like a Tim Duncan or a Shaq or a LBJ, you take the risk. But he's not, which is why he might fall to 8 in the first place. As I always say, there is a reason the guy is available in the first place.

TripleThreat wrote:

nixluva wrote:IMO the Knicks will have good options no matter how things shake out in the top 7! DSJ would be an upgrade. Jeff has experience working with guards like DSJ. I Don't see a problem there.

DSJ sulks. He simply gives up on defense. He plays down to his mercurial mood and temper. He is completely inconsistent. His shot selection is pretty atrocious. If he was simply committed to being the best player he could be, giving a full 150 percent at all times and played true team ball, he'd be the top pick in this draft simply from a raw talent perspective. The problem is not so much what he can't do, it's what he won't do. You can't teach someone to just plain care.

Can DSJ be a superstar? Yes, on a specific team with a specific situation, that must stabilize him, and accept that he could easily create a net negative situation ( gives up as much as he gets, mostly because of the indifference and apathy) It doesn't matter the players raw talent base, you have to look at a players commitment to basic fundamentals. I thought ARod was a headache for the Yankees at times, but he was a very fundamentally sound player. He took the effort and time to do the little things to be a complete ball player. He was not perfect, he certainly didn't help all the time in the playoffs or clutch, but you didn't have to bag him on whether he was going to give you full effort.

DSJ is getting a soft pass because his coaching situation was horrible in college and because he had the ACL problem.

Most people only see the Latrell Sprewell legacy from the Knicks side. After he choked his coach, the Warriors ended up with the first overall pick in the draft. They could have taken Garnett, instead they took the steady and reliable Joe Smith.

Was that a horrible decision? From a talent level, sure, but can you see the Warriors perspective from the given time and place?

The Knicks could spend the next two years with a NTC player who refuses to play team ball who is content to shotjack and not care. Plus they might be stuck with aging no experience team runner who is pushing a complicated offense no one wants who is at war with his NTC player. The young core player, Zinger, doesn't even seem to want to be here. The owner is well hated by fans and people around teh league alike.

DSJ could be a star. It won't happen here. This is not a situation conducive to a player who turns on how much he cares or how much effort he gives like a light switch.

If he was a generational type player prospect like a Tim Duncan or a Shaq or a LBJ, you take the risk. But he's not, which is why he might fall to 8 in the first place. As I always say, there is a reason the guy is available in the first place.

I was in middle school at the time so I might be remembering incorrectly, but wasn't Joe Smith considered the no-brainer 1st overall pick? I remember the talk about him being a can't-miss type player.

The problem with falling all the way to 8th is we won't have the chance to draft a clean prospect; they've all get red flags. Ntilikina has questionable athleticism and an atrocious A/TO for someone who's supposed to be a PG. Every time I see Malik Monk I think Monta Ellis. DSJr, I think, has the highest upside of anyone who'll realistically be available at #8 but he also has a pretty high floor. Worst case scenario, he looks like a more athletic Jeremy Lin, which would be a damn good result at 8, and his ceiling appears to be Derrick Rose/Dwyane Wade with a better jump shot. The only guy I would take over him would be Isaac and I only give him a 10% chance of being there when we pick.

TripleThreat wrote:

nixluva wrote:IMO the Knicks will have good options no matter how things shake out in the top 7! DSJ would be an upgrade. Jeff has experience working with guards like DSJ. I Don't see a problem there.

DSJ sulks. He simply gives up on defense. He plays down to his mercurial mood and temper. He is completely inconsistent. His shot selection is pretty atrocious. If he was simply committed to being the best player he could be, giving a full 150 percent at all times and played true team ball, he'd be the top pick in this draft simply from a raw talent perspective. The problem is not so much what he can't do, it's what he won't do. You can't teach someone to just plain care.

Can DSJ be a superstar? Yes, on a specific team with a specific situation, that must stabilize him, and accept that he could easily create a net negative situation ( gives up as much as he gets, mostly because of the indifference and apathy) It doesn't matter the players raw talent base, you have to look at a players commitment to basic fundamentals. I thought ARod was a headache for the Yankees at times, but he was a very fundamentally sound player. He took the effort and time to do the little things to be a complete ball player. He was not perfect, he certainly didn't help all the time in the playoffs or clutch, but you didn't have to bag him on whether he was going to give you full effort.

DSJ is getting a soft pass because his coaching situation was horrible in college and because he had the ACL problem.

Most people only see the Latrell Sprewell legacy from the Knicks side. After he choked his coach, the Warriors ended up with the first overall pick in the draft. They could have taken Garnett, instead they took the steady and reliable Joe Smith.

Was that a horrible decision? From a talent level, sure, but can you see the Warriors perspective from the given time and place?

The Knicks could spend the next two years with a NTC player who refuses to play team ball who is content to shotjack and not care. Plus they might be stuck with aging no experience team runner who is pushing a complicated offense no one wants who is at war with his NTC player. The young core player, Zinger, doesn't even seem to want to be here. The owner is well hated by fans and people around teh league alike.

DSJ could be a star. It won't happen here. This is not a situation conducive to a player who turns on how much he cares or how much effort he gives like a light switch.

If he was a generational type player prospect like a Tim Duncan or a Shaq or a LBJ, you take the risk. But he's not, which is why he might fall to 8 in the first place. As I always say, there is a reason the guy is available in the first place.

I saw him play one game this year and I swear he never tried at all on defense. It was like he wasn't even there.