Nalod wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Agreed. Need to be a 3pt shooting team to win today. The nice thing is, KP is a great 3pt shooting F/C. He's the ideal center for the future of basketball. Surround him with 4 guys who can shoot and defend and it's a good plan.

true, But phil was thrilled about the game kp didn't take one 3 in a game. It's no secrete he's not a fan of that shot

He's not a fan of bad shots.
KP can take 3-5 bad shots a game, usually they are 3 point shots.
He's 7'3 who has a great midrange game.
He settles for the 3 point shot that he shot a lower and lower percentage on as the season went on.

Is Phil wrong for wanting KP to play to his strengths?
It's not like KP shoots 3's like Curry. He's a 36% shooter from there. And after the first great month of shooting, he was more like a 32% shooter rest of the season.

The thing is I sort of understand phils thinking, but the reality is what it is.
We are in a ERA where every position it's launching 3's at a extremely high rate, and a perfect example is MARC GASOL, he took a TOTAL of 63 three pointers in his first 8 seasons, this year he took 268 3's, and Robin lopez, and Cousins have similar stats. This is a copy cat league, everyone knows that

Great line form someone who likes to take conjecture and validate it thru their own mind, then spew it back as fact with no basis.

When Phil made his statement about 3's, GSW had yet to win a chip. We had not see an offensive juggernut like GSW actually take it all the way to a chip. They were very fortunate along the way as injuries in the west really helped them. Cav's lost Kyrie in game one, an overtime win by GSW, and Cav's stil had a 2-1 lead. That was also Cav's without Kevin Love.
Im not taking anything away from them. They play to their personal which is an amazing tandem of long range shooters. They defied what we know up to then. Cav's won the next year. Still quite and accomplishment to play two finals in a row.

As Martin said, don't always take everything Phil says as the ultimate final opinion. KP and Willy are not low post slumber giants of a past era. KP is not defined by his height. He is a true evolution of the stretch 5.

Most thought Rambis was the coach after last year and think Fan pushback was reason he went elsewhere. That's delusional.
If you read phils books, you start to scratch the surface, but you still don't know what he is thinking.

Agree. Dont think Phil saying KP needs to take less bad 3pt. shots is a judgment of his overall game. I have always knocked KP for his tendancy to settle for long 3's. Does not mean I dont want him to take the ones where he is open and in rythm. Also, any coach/GM/Prez would want his 7'3 guy to first take advantage of easier opportunities, if contested. Same thing for Melo, hate when he goes one on one behind the 3 point line and chucks. Players all need to play within their strenghts and need to get the best shot available. Settling for any contested long 3 is never a good look.

Do think that KP should and will develop a quick jump shot off a screen as well as a post up game. That will take his game to the next level. He just makes a short jumper off a screen look so easy. Hope he also cuts to the basket a bit more off screens instead of poping. But agree, before its all done, he may redefine the position.

martin wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Agreed. Need to be a 3pt shooting team to win today. The nice thing is, KP is a great 3pt shooting F/C. He's the ideal center for the future of basketball. Surround him with 4 guys who can shoot and defend and it's a good plan.

true, But phil was thrilled about the game kp didn't take one 3 in a game. It's no secrete he's not a fan of that shot

Are you don't making the inane comments in the forum? I'm getting tired of it.

Phil has mocked teams that shoot a lot of 3s too. Hopefully he's watching and learning. I think 1248 raises a legitimate concern.

No he doesn't Bonn, and if you can't read into the context of both what Phil said during his press conference I don't know what to say, but I do think you and knicks1248 are being purposely ignorant.

Yeah Phil sent out a dumbass tweet, probably while he was high, mocking GS when they had a bad game. So what? That's called trash talking, and it was foolish by Phil. Does that mean his complete strategy and understanding of the game is based off of one tweet? Thinking like that will get you nowhere.

Phil just made his one big splash in the one draft he had a high draft pick by nabbing the first unicorn known to the NBA, a sweet shooting, 3pt shooting, 7'3" center with mobility and zero post game. That should lend folks to more where his head is at. He also just hired a coached that most certainly had a very modern look to an offense in the NBA - lots of guards doing lots of spacing things.

And you and knicks1248 want me to think that Phil wants his Unicorn to shoot ZERO 3pointers? That's what we can get out of the press conference when it's probably obvious to everyone else that Phil was talking about bad shots versus good shots?

That's trolling and I want it to step.

Bravo. While Phil's comments can be bold or provocative, it gets old when whatever he said is twisted into a bizarre theory of everything.

For everyone, opinions are fluid. We are bombarded by information all the time and it effects our opinions without question. But a barrage of misinformation is toxic and wastes everyone's time.

Nalod wrote:So what have we learned?
If you add allstars to the roster without deleting any assets, either via draft or free agency, or by superior trading opportunity then the team is better?
Phuching "A" brilliant concept!!!! Im sure it took years of study to figure that one out.

Nalod, what is absolutely befuddling is why the Phil-hating community believes this with absolute conviction. The executives and coaching staff either play with a royal flush every hand (transaction, trade, whatever) or they've failed. Why does it take them years to figure out that that can never happen, that there are pluses and minuses and unintended brain-farts along the way?

In retrospect, everything looks obvious. In real-time the fog of immediacy makes it much less so.

martin wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Agreed. Need to be a 3pt shooting team to win today. The nice thing is, KP is a great 3pt shooting F/C. He's the ideal center for the future of basketball. Surround him with 4 guys who can shoot and defend and it's a good plan.

true, But phil was thrilled about the game kp didn't take one 3 in a game. It's no secrete he's not a fan of that shot

Are you don't making the inane comments in the forum? I'm getting tired of it.

Phil has mocked teams that shoot a lot of 3s too. Hopefully he's watching and learning. I think 1248 raises a legitimate concern.

No he doesn't Bonn, and if you can't read into the context of both what Phil said during his press conference I don't know what to say, but I do think you and knicks1248 are being purposely ignorant.

Yeah Phil sent out a dumbass tweet, probably while he was high, mocking GS when they had a bad game. So what? That's called trash talking, and it was foolish by Phil. Does that mean his complete strategy and understanding of the game is based off of one tweet? Thinking like that will get you nowhere.

Phil just made his one big splash in the one draft he had a high draft pick by nabbing the first unicorn known to the NBA, a sweet shooting, 3pt shooting, 7'3" center with mobility and zero post game. That should lend folks to more where his head is at. He also just hired a coached that most certainly had a very modern look to an offense in the NBA - lots of guards doing lots of spacing things.

And you and knicks1248 want me to think that Phil wants his Unicorn to shoot ZERO 3pointers? That's what we can get out of the press conference when it's probably obvious to everyone else that Phil was talking about bad shots versus good shots?

knicks1248 wrote:
you gotta be kidding me, I never said anything about Phil not wanting KP to shoot any 3's, and that's exactly why you took this for trolling.

IDK man, it seems like when phil says something, some look at it different. Just like when he said he didn't think he criticize melo, some scratched their heads like (yeah you kind of did) but whatever, no biggie.

At the end of the day, you are going to see more and more 3's unless they change the rules of the game, and players are going to want to play like that. You saw the all star game, how many mid range shots went up, over 50% of the shots were 3's, it was ridiculous.

So when phil say it's a cheap lazy shot, He's 100% RIGHT and I totally agree, but what are going to do, everyone's doing it, and having lot's of success, and the players seem to be on the same page with that style. Isn't this a players league

To further my point Jeff was BEGGING Rose to take 3's and badgering CLee to shoot more and be more aggressive attack off the dribble. If Rose and BJ were actually taking the 3's that were there for them the Knicks attempts would easily be higher. It wasn't a scheme problem just a personnel problem. We need more 3pt shooters. Jeff's Triangle featured a lot of Spread PnR with 3pt spacing so it's not what you describe at all.

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:
you gotta be kidding me, I never said anything about Phil not wanting KP to shoot any 3's, and that's exactly why you took this for trolling.

IDK man, it seems like when phil says something, some look at it different. Just like when he said he didn't think he criticize melo, some scratched their heads like (yeah you kind of did) but whatever, no biggie.

At the end of the day, you are going to see more and more 3's unless they change the rules of the game, and players are going to want to play like that. You saw the all star game, how many mid range shots went up, over 50% of the shots were 3's, it was ridiculous.

So when phil say it's a cheap lazy shot, He's 100% RIGHT and I totally agree, but what are going to do, everyone's doing it, and having lot's of success, and the players seem to be on the same page with that style. Isn't this a players league

The problem is that you're interpreting Phil's comments to be a problem. It's not a problem. Phil wants his players to play SMART. Too often KP was taking bad shots from 3pt range. There's no reason to ever take a bad 3pt shot when you can run the offense and get a GOOD 3pt shot. KP is 7-3 and really good close to the rim so why not get some shots up in there as opposed to just jacking 3's with no rhythm?

To further my point Jeff was BEGGING Rose to take 3's and badgering CLee to shoot more and be more aggressive attack off the dribble. If Rose and BJ were actually taking the 3's that were there for them the Knicks attempts would easily be higher. It wasn't a scheme problem just a personnel problem. We need more 3pt shooters. Jeff's Triangle featured a lot of Spread PnR with 3pt spacing so it's not what you describe at all.

Exactly, I'm all for Jeffs thinking, but when phil said go back to basics and let rambis run things, thats when i lost even more respect for this phil. Then a guy like Rose who almost purposely didn't shoot 3's and there's mutual interest..wow phil is more enamored with his drives to the basket then the fact that he shoot less 3's then your center.

MY team would have at least 6 guys on the squad the can shoot 35 or above from downtown. Put it this way, I would take MDA's system over this triangle sht any day of the wk, any minute of the day

One way you can tell is that the Team NEVER went 100% Triangle. It was just re-emphasized so that they could get better at it for when it was needed. They still ran Jeff's Schemes Early in the Shot clock. The team was really executing once the kids got more time and were able to develop confidence. They started to execute much faster which is important with the Triangle. Up til now the Knicks were always slow and methodical, which what you're complaints are based on IMO.

As for the Rose thing once again you're taking it too far. This team does need penetration. PHIL IS NOT ANTI 3 POINT SHOTS! Did you just not watch basketball when Phil was coaching that you somehow missed on the Great 3 pt shooters he had. Yes the game has changed over the decades but Phil always had 3 pt shooting the corner 3pt shot was a staple of the Triangle. Hodges, Paxson, Kerr, Armstrong... It's a total misread of what Phil is talking about. He just isn't a big fan of wildly jacking up 3's as opposed to good offense.

fwk00 wrote:

Nalod wrote:So what have we learned?
If you add allstars to the roster without deleting any assets, either via draft or free agency, or by superior trading opportunity then the team is better?
Phuching "A" brilliant concept!!!! Im sure it took years of study to figure that one out.

Nalod, what is absolutely befuddling is why the Phil-hating community believes this with absolute conviction. The executives and coaching staff either play with a royal flush every hand (transaction, trade, whatever) or they've failed. Why does it take them years to figure out that that can never happen, that there are pluses and minuses and unintended brain-farts along the way?

In retrospect, everything looks obvious. In real-time the fog of immediacy makes it much less so.

franco12 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:
you gotta be kidding me, I never said anything about Phil not wanting KP to shoot any 3's, and that's exactly why you took this for trolling.

IDK man, it seems like when phil says something, some look at it different. Just like when he said he didn't think he criticize melo, some scratched their heads like (yeah you kind of did) but whatever, no biggie.

At the end of the day, you are going to see more and more 3's unless they change the rules of the game, and players are going to want to play like that. You saw the all star game, how many mid range shots went up, over 50% of the shots were 3's, it was ridiculous.

So when phil say it's a cheap lazy shot, He's 100% RIGHT and I totally agree, but what are going to do, everyone's doing it, and having lot's of success, and the players seem to be on the same page with that style. Isn't this a players league

The problem is that you're interpreting Phil's comments to be a problem. It's not a problem. Phil wants his players to play SMART. Too often KP was taking bad shots from 3pt range. There's no reason to ever take a bad 3pt shot when you can run the offense and get a GOOD 3pt shot. KP is 7-3 and really good close to the rim so why not get some shots up in there as opposed to just jacking 3's with no rhythm?

To further my point Jeff was BEGGING Rose to take 3's and badgering CLee to shoot more and be more aggressive attack off the dribble. If Rose and BJ were actually taking the 3's that were there for them the Knicks attempts would easily be higher. It wasn't a scheme problem just a personnel problem. We need more 3pt shooters. Jeff's Triangle featured a lot of Spread PnR with 3pt spacing so it's not what you describe at all.

Bad means the type of shot typically has a low point return for the team, right? Look at KP's percentages. He probably takes 1 bad 3 for every 10 bad 2 point shots. And if Phil understands modern NBA offense, I don't even get why Rose at over $20 mil a year would be on the roster or why half the cap would be spent on two volume scorers or why he'd ever mock 3 point shooting. I know Martin said maybe he was high when he made the tweets. Maybe he was high when he made all his trades and FA signings too then.

here is my question- what produces more points, 10 bad 3 pt shots or 10 good 2 pt shots?

All depends on how you define bad and good.

I did a google search for a good mid range percentage - brought up an article about mid range shooters- #10 was LaMarcus Aldrige - he shot about 41% from mid range

so, 10 shots, he produces 8 points.

So now, the question is - a bad 3pt- I'm not thinking hail mary heave. Perhaps a contested shot? What percentage can we use?

Can we use the Net's 3pt percentage as a team? They clearly stink. But they shot 33.8% - and that produces 9 points.

KP is 7'3". He should be able to shoot over just about anyone guarding him.

Imagine what he would do on Golden State?

franco12 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:
you gotta be kidding me, I never said anything about Phil not wanting KP to shoot any 3's, and that's exactly why you took this for trolling.

IDK man, it seems like when phil says something, some look at it different. Just like when he said he didn't think he criticize melo, some scratched their heads like (yeah you kind of did) but whatever, no biggie.

At the end of the day, you are going to see more and more 3's unless they change the rules of the game, and players are going to want to play like that. You saw the all star game, how many mid range shots went up, over 50% of the shots were 3's, it was ridiculous.

So when phil say it's a cheap lazy shot, He's 100% RIGHT and I totally agree, but what are going to do, everyone's doing it, and having lot's of success, and the players seem to be on the same page with that style. Isn't this a players league

The problem is that you're interpreting Phil's comments to be a problem. It's not a problem. Phil wants his players to play SMART. Too often KP was taking bad shots from 3pt range. There's no reason to ever take a bad 3pt shot when you can run the offense and get a GOOD 3pt shot. KP is 7-3 and really good close to the rim so why not get some shots up in there as opposed to just jacking 3's with no rhythm?

To further my point Jeff was BEGGING Rose to take 3's and badgering CLee to shoot more and be more aggressive attack off the dribble. If Rose and BJ were actually taking the 3's that were there for them the Knicks attempts would easily be higher. It wasn't a scheme problem just a personnel problem. We need more 3pt shooters. Jeff's Triangle featured a lot of Spread PnR with 3pt spacing so it's not what you describe at all.

Bad means the type of shot typically has a low point return for the team, right? Look at KP's percentages. He probably takes 1 bad 3 for every 10 bad 2 point shots. And if Phil understands modern NBA offense, I don't even get why Rose at over $20 mil a year would be on the roster or why half the cap would be spent on two volume scorers or why he'd ever mock 3 point shooting. I know Martin said maybe he was high when he made the tweets. Maybe he was high when he made all his trades and FA signings too then.

here is my question- what produces more points, 10 bad 3 pt shots or 10 good 2 pt shots?

All depends on how you define bad and good.

I did a google search for a good mid range percentage - brought up an article about mid range shooters- #10 was LaMarcus Aldrige - he shot about 41% from mid range

so, 10 shots, he produces 8 points.

So now, the question is - a bad 3pt- I'm not thinking hail mary heave. Perhaps a contested shot? What percentage can we use?

Can we use the Net's 3pt percentage as a team? They clearly stink. But they shot 33.8% - and that produces 9 points.

KP is 7'3". He should be able to shoot over just about anyone guarding him.

Imagine what he would do on Golden State?

We also have to factor in what happens when a poorly timed 3 is missed and the long rebound leads to a score on the other end. This is about more than just the % on offense. Phil is thinking about floor balance too. A good 3 is coming when the defense is off balance and comes in the rhythm for the offense.

Jeff actually increased the number of 3's per game but it was limited by Rose refusing to take them. I believe the Knicks will show an increase in 3pt attempts if we replace Rose with a PG that actually looks to shoot those wide open 3's he passed up.