Bonn1997 wrote:

EnySpree wrote:They deserve to be at the bottom but you aren't going to rank the nets and sactown ahead of the Knicks like it's all good. That's straight bull**** trolling.

So 30 instead of 28 or so makes it trolling? That's just a small difference in judgment. If there was a team that should be more like 15 and was put at 30, I'd understand calling that trolling but calling a tiny disagreement trolling is ridiculous.

+1000000000 That's hating right there.

KnicksFE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

EnySpree wrote:They deserve to be at the bottom but you aren't going to rank the nets and sactown ahead of the Knicks like it's all good. That's straight bull**** trolling.

So 30 instead of 28 or so makes it trolling? That's just a small difference in judgment. If there was a team that should be more like 15 and was put at 30, I'd understand calling that trolling but calling a tiny disagreement trolling is ridiculous.

+1000000000 That's hating right there.

right, going back and forth about weather the NETs and sac are worse is about as dumb as it gets.. All 3 franchise are down right terrible with no direction..thats the bottom line

Nalod only cares about 2 things regarding front office:

1. Wins/Losses
2. Decisions made.

Number 1 is the score card for number 2. What is lost on many is how we came to be here. Nets moved from the past process and are building. Phil in three years has not destroyed a good team nor sold out our future. I like some decisions but not the short term results. 3 years is not time to evaluate and fire. That's my opinion. IM generally not as reactionary as some of you.
All teams makes mistakes and most are not firable events. Also, sometimes you lose the battle to win the war.

Only thing I can fault him on was the Noah contract. The rest are not franchise killers. All teams don't score on all decisions.

matt wrote:The only direction or identity the Knicks are trying to build on is based on an offensive system that, at best, discourages taking threes, and at worst, only works with elite elite players.

We have a young stud Porzingis, but management doesn't seem interested in trying to work with his strengths and is trying to turn him into... I have no idea what they're trying to turn him into. I don't think they do either.

Phil's crusade to prove the triangle works in current NBA is a trainwreck. His random, voluntary coaching and critiquing from a distance hurts the actual hired coach.

I don't mean to call you out but I keep seeing this type of argument made and I find it is very weak and not at all informed.

The Triangle is a label on an offense system for better or worse. In the NBA it has only been run by 1 coach but by 2 different franchises and both won a lot of championships. Lots of teams use sets from this offense.

MDA had this system called 7 Seconds or Less and the SAME EXACT arguments were made AGAINST his style of ball (no one else is running it, you need "special" players, it doesn't emphasize one thing or another)... and yet here we are 10 years later and it's the model (style) that everyone wants to get to.

Just because no one else is running the exact same thing does not mean it can not work.

Just because GSW has defined a more modern system does not mean it is the only one that can work.

All of the best NBA teams need elite players to make them an elite team. So duh, for the Triangle to work at a high level you need elite players. GSW needs elite players. So does CLE.

Hey look, Phil would like a system that emphasizes passing, cutting, moving the ball, moving players, finding the open man.... AND THAT'S A BAD THING?!?!?!?!

The coach who has the most rings over the past few decades offers to run a few practices and THAT'S A BAD THING?!?!?!

All elite teams need elite players and need to be highly efficient on both sides of the court. When you are only good at one end you can win a playoff series or 2 but then you get beat out repeatedly.

I see so many blatantly bad arguments against the Triangle.

KnicksFE wrote:

Nalod wrote:Lakers have leagues worst record, hired a starphuch who has a history of idiotic tweets, has made some bad moves themselves and all just made peace after a failed palace coup d'état to remove Jeannie.
Only thing lakers have done right is keeping their picks the last few years. They need to finish 1-2-3 in lotto or Philly gets their pick!

Nalod only cares about 2 things regarding front office:

1. Wins/Losses
2. Decisions made.

Number 1 is the score card for number 2. What is lost on many is how we came to be here. Nets moved from the past process and are building. Phil in three years has not destroyed a good team nor sold out our future. I like some decisions but not the short term results. 3 years is not time to evaluate and fire. That's my opinion. IM generally not as reactionary as some of you.
All teams makes mistakes and most are not firable events. Also, sometimes you lose the battle to win the war.

Only thing I can fault him on was the Noah contract. The rest are not franchise killers. All teams don't score on all decisions.

Yea and good teams don’t strikeout in most decisions either, if Phil only mistake is the Noah’s contract, why is our record so terrible? One bad decision should not make us one of the worst team in the NBA. It takes multiple bad decisions to be this bad.

1 draft pick in three years is a symptom from previous decisions.
Melo and the price we paid to get him was a symptom. We got old quick and decision with the sheed and Kidd lead team was a short term "Nice" event, but really who thought it was sustainable.
Last month of that season Melo carried the team back to the 4th seed and the team was gassed. It was indicative of the roster. The next year, not a phil year, we won 37 games. A tear down was needed.
Phil owns Melo I suppose, but Dolan has a history of holding to promises and I think the NTC was one of them. With little return from the draft, we did need a player to put up stats and keep the show going.
I don't think Grunwald was fired for anything he did wrong. MSG did a big top to bottom evaluation with Mckinsey and Co. and dolan was convinced by them that knicks have been exploited for years by trading future picks.
Its why Kyle Lowry was not traded here.

My take is it took years to build this problem and with a hard cap, its harder to undue it.
My take is at this moment in time one cannot undue the past, nor the decisions. What would a new team president do NOW that would make it all better?
No doubt our expectations are inflated with Phil. Knicks can't succeed or make meaningful changes without assets. Thus, I say we have made good decisions that have not translated yet.

Nalod wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

Nalod wrote:Lakers have leagues worst record, hired a starphuch who has a history of idiotic tweets, has made some bad moves themselves and all just made peace after a failed palace coup d'état to remove Jeannie.
Only thing lakers have done right is keeping their picks the last few years. They need to finish 1-2-3 in lotto or Philly gets their pick!

Nalod only cares about 2 things regarding front office:

1. Wins/Losses
2. Decisions made.

Number 1 is the score card for number 2. What is lost on many is how we came to be here. Nets moved from the past process and are building. Phil in three years has not destroyed a good team nor sold out our future. I like some decisions but not the short term results. 3 years is not time to evaluate and fire. That's my opinion. IM generally not as reactionary as some of you.
All teams makes mistakes and most are not firable events. Also, sometimes you lose the battle to win the war.

Only thing I can fault him on was the Noah contract. The rest are not franchise killers. All teams don't score on all decisions.

Yea and good teams don’t strikeout in most decisions either, if Phil only mistake is the Noah’s contract, why is our record so terrible? One bad decision should not make us one of the worst team in the NBA. It takes multiple bad decisions to be this bad.

1 draft pick in three years is a symptom from previous decisions.
Melo and the price we paid to get him was a symptom. We got old quick and decision with the sheed and Kidd lead team was a short term "Nice" event, but really who thought it was sustainable.
Last month of that season Melo carried the team back to the 4th seed and the team was gassed. It was indicative of the roster. The next year, not a phil year, we won 37 games. A tear down was needed.
Phil owns Melo I suppose, but Dolan has a history of holding to promises and I think the NTC was one of them. With little return from the draft, we did need a player to put up stats and keep the show going.
I don't think Grunwald was fired for anything he did wrong. MSG did a big top to bottom evaluation with Mckinsey and Co. and dolan was convinced by them that knicks have been exploited for years by trading future picks.
Its why Kyle Lowry was not traded here.

My take is it took years to build this problem and with a hard cap, its harder to undue it.
My take is at this moment in time one cannot undue the past, nor the decisions. What would a new team president do NOW that would make it all better?
No doubt our expectations are inflated with Phil. Knicks can't succeed or make meaningful changes without assets. Thus, I say we have made good decisions that have not translated yet.

It doesn't say this is a rating of Phil Jackson, though. It's a rating of the team's management. So any mistakes made before Phil by Dolan, Mills, etc. I would think are part of the equation. I also wouldn't expect ESPN or any outsider to be taking a leap of faith that things are better, KP is gonna be great, etc. Every team's fan base thinks that way. They're just rating us based on what's happened so far.

KnicksFE wrote:

Nalod wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

Nalod wrote:Lakers have leagues worst record, hired a starphuch who has a history of idiotic tweets, has made some bad moves themselves and all just made peace after a failed palace coup d'état to remove Jeannie.
Only thing lakers have done right is keeping their picks the last few years. They need to finish 1-2-3 in lotto or Philly gets their pick!

Nalod only cares about 2 things regarding front office:

1. Wins/Losses
2. Decisions made.

Number 1 is the score card for number 2. What is lost on many is how we came to be here. Nets moved from the past process and are building. Phil in three years has not destroyed a good team nor sold out our future. I like some decisions but not the short term results. 3 years is not time to evaluate and fire. That's my opinion. IM generally not as reactionary as some of you.
All teams makes mistakes and most are not firable events. Also, sometimes you lose the battle to win the war.

Only thing I can fault him on was the Noah contract. The rest are not franchise killers. All teams don't score on all decisions.

Yea and good teams don’t strikeout in most decisions either, if Phil only mistake is the Noah’s contract, why is our record so terrible? One bad decision should not make us one of the worst team in the NBA. It takes multiple bad decisions to be this bad.

1 draft pick in three years is a symptom from previous decisions.
Melo and the price we paid to get him was a symptom. We got old quick and decision with the sheed and Kidd lead team was a short term "Nice" event, but really who thought it was sustainable.
Last month of that season Melo carried the team back to the 4th seed and the team was gassed. It was indicative of the roster. The next year, not a phil year, we won 37 games. A tear down was needed.
Phil owns Melo I suppose, but Dolan has a history of holding to promises and I think the NTC was one of them. With little return from the draft, we did need a player to put up stats and keep the show going.
I don't think Grunwald was fired for anything he did wrong. MSG did a big top to bottom evaluation with Mckinsey and Co. and dolan was convinced by them that knicks have been exploited for years by trading future picks.
Its why Kyle Lowry was not traded here.

My take is it took years to build this problem and with a hard cap, its harder to undue it.
My take is at this moment in time one cannot undue the past, nor the decisions. What would a new team president do NOW that would make it all better?
No doubt our expectations are inflated with Phil. Knicks can't succeed or make meaningful changes without assets. Thus, I say we have made good decisions that have not translated yet.

While I have to admit that a lot of the damage was done prior to Jackson getting here, he has not help himself either. If Brooklyn can get a 1st rounder for Bogdanovic, why didn’t the Knicks get at least one for Shumpert, JR and Chandler. What was the point of getting Calderon? Anybody who follows the league knew Jose was declining big time in Dallas. And the same goes for Noah. The Knicks may try to trade Melo in the offseason, it’s going to be challenging for them to get decent value for him after Jackson publicly criticized his start player in the media? Sometimes to improve your situation you have to create your OWN opportunities and I think PHIL HAS FAIL BIG TIME at that

You have to go look at each player, and trade value at the moment of the trade. JR was a dump, Shump who was pending FA we were not resigning, so we got what we got.
BOGO went to a contender who had a first round pick to offer and its going to be a low first round pick. He is a premier shooter going to an athletic team who needs that.
Tyson and Felton had to bring some salary back. Larken was a former first rounder who got an audition. We got Clearanthony, Forgot if we got another pick, and Jose, who at 7mm per was not a high salary.
The decision seemed like we Langston and Grant, one will step up and start. Year beofre Jose was injured. 7mm per. You want to pay shup mkt value of 10 per year? JR got 14mm per year? We won 17 games with them as core players for us. IT was not pretty.

Sometimes good decisions don't pan out. What we can't see is woudl Clev had one two chips with other choices? Don't know. We really looking at nets as the belweather now?
Does anyone really know if BOgo will yield a better player for the pick? Nets have cap space and still very few picks. They swap with boston next year.
In two more years, can nets win more than 30 games? Will they have a player like KP on the roster? They have Bropez as their main asset and tried to move him for two picks. he hurts his foot their fans will be outraged they did not move him for anything!!!!! Hindsight!!!

Nalod wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

Nalod wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

Nalod wrote:Lakers have leagues worst record, hired a starphuch who has a history of idiotic tweets, has made some bad moves themselves and all just made peace after a failed palace coup d'état to remove Jeannie.
Only thing lakers have done right is keeping their picks the last few years. They need to finish 1-2-3 in lotto or Philly gets their pick!

Nalod only cares about 2 things regarding front office:

1. Wins/Losses
2. Decisions made.

Number 1 is the score card for number 2. What is lost on many is how we came to be here. Nets moved from the past process and are building. Phil in three years has not destroyed a good team nor sold out our future. I like some decisions but not the short term results. 3 years is not time to evaluate and fire. That's my opinion. IM generally not as reactionary as some of you.
All teams makes mistakes and most are not firable events. Also, sometimes you lose the battle to win the war.

Only thing I can fault him on was the Noah contract. The rest are not franchise killers. All teams don't score on all decisions.

Yea and good teams don’t strikeout in most decisions either, if Phil only mistake is the Noah’s contract, why is our record so terrible? One bad decision should not make us one of the worst team in the NBA. It takes multiple bad decisions to be this bad.

1 draft pick in three years is a symptom from previous decisions.
Melo and the price we paid to get him was a symptom. We got old quick and decision with the sheed and Kidd lead team was a short term "Nice" event, but really who thought it was sustainable.
Last month of that season Melo carried the team back to the 4th seed and the team was gassed. It was indicative of the roster. The next year, not a phil year, we won 37 games. A tear down was needed.
Phil owns Melo I suppose, but Dolan has a history of holding to promises and I think the NTC was one of them. With little return from the draft, we did need a player to put up stats and keep the show going.
I don't think Grunwald was fired for anything he did wrong. MSG did a big top to bottom evaluation with Mckinsey and Co. and dolan was convinced by them that knicks have been exploited for years by trading future picks.
Its why Kyle Lowry was not traded here.

My take is it took years to build this problem and with a hard cap, its harder to undue it.
My take is at this moment in time one cannot undue the past, nor the decisions. What would a new team president do NOW that would make it all better?
No doubt our expectations are inflated with Phil. Knicks can't succeed or make meaningful changes without assets. Thus, I say we have made good decisions that have not translated yet.

While I have to admit that a lot of the damage was done prior to Jackson getting here, he has not help himself either. If Brooklyn can get a 1st rounder for Bogdanovic, why didn’t the Knicks get at least one for Shumpert, JR and Chandler. What was the point of getting Calderon? Anybody who follows the league knew Jose was declining big time in Dallas. And the same goes for Noah. The Knicks may try to trade Melo in the offseason, it’s going to be challenging for them to get decent value for him after Jackson publicly criticized his start player in the media? Sometimes to improve your situation you have to create your OWN opportunities and I think PHIL HAS FAIL BIG TIME at that

You have to go look at each player, and trade value at the moment of the trade. JR was a dump, Shump who was pending FA we were not resigning, so we got what we got.
BOGO went to a contender who had a first round pick to offer and its going to be a low first round pick. He is a premier shooter going to an athletic team who needs that.
Tyson and Felton had to bring some salary back. Larken was a former first rounder who got an audition. We got Clearanthony, Forgot if we got another pick, and Jose, who at 7mm per was not a high salary.
The decision seemed like we Langston and Grant, one will step up and start. Year beofre Jose was injured. 7mm per. You want to pay shup mkt value of 10 per year? JR got 14mm per year? We won 17 games with them as core players for us. IT was not pretty.

Sometimes good decisions don't pan out. What we can't see is woudl Clev had one two chips with other choices? Don't know. We really looking at nets as the belweather now?
Does anyone really know if BOgo will yield a better player for the pick? Nets have cap space and still very few picks. They swap with boston next year.
In two more years, can nets win more than 30 games? Will they have a player like KP on the roster? They have Bropez as their main asset and tried to move him for two picks. he hurts his foot their fans will be outraged they did not move him for anything!!!!! Hindsight!!!

If the decision was based on Langston or Grant stepping up and starting, then what’s the point of trading for Jose Calderon? What did he offered? It sure wasn’t salary cap relieve. Again Phil is just giving out players for free so you guys can complain of how little he had to work with. And No I wouldn’t like to pay Shump or JR that kind of money, but if I’m going to make a mistake I rather pay them than giving Noah and Lee around 130 million. How many games are we wining with them? You may want to read the article below before you continue making excuses for a terrible job.

http://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-knicks/post/_/id/65100/phil-jackson-my-biggest-mistake-as-knicks-president-was-not-trading-for-jae-crowder

Phil Jackson: Biggest mistake with Knicks was not trading for Jae Crowder
Aug 26, 2016

Phil Jackson had a chance to trade for Jae Crowder in 2014 and opted instead to acquire a second-round pick. Jackson calls this decision, which was part of the deal that sent Tyson Chandler and Raymond Felton to Dallas, his biggest mistake as Knicks team president.

Jackson made his remarks after the season in an interview with Charley Rosen, which was published Friday by Today's Fastbreak:

Here is Jackson's full quote from the interview:

"I don't consider hiring Fish [Derek Fisher] a mistake because he worked hard and got the guys to stay as positive as possible while the losses piled up. I think the biggest mistake I made was actually this. ... One of the first deals I engineered when I came back to New York was to trade Tyson Chandler and Raymond Felton to Dallas for Shane Larkin, Jose Calderon, Wayne Ellington, Samuel Dalembert, plus a second-round pick that the Mavs owed to the Celtics.

"In talking with Boston, I was given the option of taking that pick or else taking Jae Crowder. I liked Crowder but I thought he wouldn't get much of a chance to play behind Carmelo [Anthony], so I took the pick, which turned out to be Cleanthony Early. While Cleanthony has missed lots of time in the past two seasons with us, he still has the potential to be a valuable player. Even so, I should have taken Crowder.

"Anyway, for all of us, making mistakes are part of the learning process. ... We won 15 more games this season than we did last season, something that's not easy to do in the NBA. I'd be more than happy if we could make the same jump next season."
The Knicks could have acquired Jae Crowder, but instead took a second-round pick that became Cleanthony Early. David Goldman/AP Photo

A few things to unpack here: Dallas traded Crowder to Boston in December 2014, and he signed a five-year, $35 million contract in the summer of 2015 to remain with the Celtics. That's one of the more valuable contracts in the NBA at the moment. The salary cap spike has led to a massive increase in contract values for free agents, and getting a versatile player like Crowder for $7 million a year is very team friendly.

Assuming the Knicks acquired Crowder in the 2014 trade and signed him to the same contract as Boston, he would be an extremely valuable piece. Adding Crowder -- who averaged 14.2 points and 5.1 rebounds last season -- also would have changed the complexion of the Chandler/Felton trade; none of the players the Knicks acquired in the deal is currently on the roster.

So Jackson's decision here hurts the Knicks, though I appreciate his candor. He knows he has given Knicks fans -- and his critics -- another reason to question his credentials as an executive. But he owns up to the mistake.

I disagree with Jackson when he says hiring Fisher wasn't a mistake. I don't think he should have fired Fisher, but if the coach you hand-picked to lead your franchise lasts less than two seasons on the job, then you've made a mistake.

There are a few other things worth noting from Jackson's interview published Friday, and some of the previous interviews conducted by Rosen:

Season expectations: Jackson said in an interview published last week that his goal for the 2015-16 season was to win 35 games. That makes sense for a team that's rebuilding, but it's fair to wonder how that goal was received by Anthony, who surely wanted to make the playoffs. Nonetheless, Jackson said in the interview published Friday that he'd be "more than happy" with a 47-win season in 2016-17, which is something all his players would probably sign up for.

Triangle issues: Jackson observed that the Knicks were having issues with the triangle offense throughout the 2015-16 season.

"The guys hadn't developed an instinctive feel for the triangle, so they were cautious, played by rote, and our offense became predictable. When in doubt, they too often resorted to individual play. All of this created lots of media criticism of the triangle offense itself," he said.

"But, really, when you come down to it, the triangle is just a way to format basic basketball. Lots of teams run many aspects of the triangle, with San Antonio being the most successful example. What we lacked that, say, the Spurs had, were guards who could penetrate and force defenses to make the kinds of adjustments that left other players open. That's one reason why we drafted Jerian Grant."

This interview was conducted shortly after the season. The Knicks subsequently traded Grant in a package that yielded Chicago's Derrick Rose. In Rose, the Knicks now have a guard who can penetrate and force defenses to adjust. It will be interesting to see how Rose changes New York's offense in the coming season.

Jackson also pointed out that the Knicks failed to execute the triangle offense's advanced options as the season progressed, putting some of the blame on Fisher:

"When you play teams multiple times, you have to keep adding elements to both your offense and your defense. Yet we never did evolve. For example, we were never able to develop the recognition to properly execute many of the basic automatic options that make the triangle effective. So we couldn't make the appropriate counters when defenses pressured the wings and we wound up turning the ball over and giving up easy run-out scores. Plus, the second or third times we played teams, our game plans remained somewhat elementary while theirs had progressed.

"Not to blame it all on Fish, though. Because we had so few holdover players from last season and so many new players this season, it was understandable why our overall development and cohesion was a slower process than we had hoped."

The Knicks will have at least eight new players on the 2016-17 roster. Will this group face the same challenges with the offense that previous groups have? Worth noting: Assistant coach Kurt Rambis has said that it takes about a full season for teams to get comfortable running the triangle.

Also worth noting: New head coach Jeff Hornacek plans to tweak the offense. Will his adjustments make the offense easier for first-year players to learn? That could be a key factor to New York's season.

It's very hard to win in this league without a quality top 5. Phil tried to put at least some decent quality NBA players around Melo but the combination didn't completely come together on the defensive end. We had good interior D with RoLo and KP but weak perimeter D. This year it pretty much all fell apart. Phil's biggest failure is not getting enough DEFENSIVE TALENT.

So IMO that has to be the goal. MORE 2 WAY TALENT. He's got to eliminate weak defense and add strong defensive players to the mix. My guess is they realize this since it's such a glaring problem. How they address the need is going to be crucial to turning this around quicker. Phil has to upgrade with defensive PG, SG, SF and an athletic PF.

The "score" is based on people who voted? What panel of "experts" voted? This is the all star game for the team FOs.

This survey and results has as much real value as a lump of coal.
But when it fits a certain agenda it automatically becomes "fact".