JrZyHuStLa wrote:

holfresh wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

holfresh wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Without Rose and Melo

# we suck

Hahaha. Amen. I was going to say the same thing. Amazing how people will scapegoat the stars. Without Rose and Melo could this team even get to the second round of the NCAA tournament? This is a young team, not trying to slag the rookies. But damn. There is not a lot of NBA talent after Rose and Melo on this squad.

Without Rose and melo we'd win 15 games Maybe

Are you serious? The team is playing much better on both ends of the court without Melo and Rose. They're actually only -0.6 per 48 min (a little worse than a .500 team) when Melo sits. Granted that's only a sample of about 1000 minutes but it's a reasonably strong performance from a young group of players in that 1000 minutes. I doubt they'd be worse than their .375 right now.

The Knicks have won 1 game in the last two years without Melo...ONE game...

Yea we definitely need Melo so we can continue missing the postseason. What is it, 4 straight years?

My goodness, where would we be without our star player.

Yeah..Gut the team, bring in scrubs, weak coach and wonder why you can't make the playoffs..It's on one guy...

Melo isn't the only player in the league who's dealt with problems such as roster gutting, bad free agency signings and constant coaching turnover. He's just the one guy who can't deliver time and time again when change arises. Some sort of scapegoat always has to be created.

Westbrook lost an MVP caliber and a sure fire HOF player in Durant. Guess what? He elevated his game to god like territory and is in the MVP race himself with a mediocre roster who HE involves. Houston finished as .500 club last year and fired McHale only to bring in one of the most non defensive minded coaches in the league. Guess what? He elevated his game big time with another mediocre roster.

Want another one? Paul George has an Indian team in the playoff race with a squad not any more talented than the Knicks and he's getting it done.

Some guys know how to get the job done. Melo just isn't one of them. It's no knock on him. Some guys just don't have a leader trait in them.

Melo did that for 7 years in Denver and two years here...

And Myles Turner in Indy is balling harder than KP right now..So I don't know where you are getting the more talent from...

And I guarantee you the President of Basketball in Indy isn't jerking Paul George's chain in the press...

We were 14-10 before our diva Pres took to the press and twitter...

Don't ya just hate it when social media ruins your season?

So that's your way of admitting I have a point and your comments were off base???

holfresh wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Without Rose and Melo

# we suck

Hahaha. Amen. I was going to say the same thing. Amazing how people will scapegoat the stars. Without Rose and Melo could this team even get to the second round of the NCAA tournament? This is a young team, not trying to slag the rookies. But damn. There is not a lot of NBA talent after Rose and Melo on this squad.

Without Rose and melo we'd win 15 games Maybe

Are you serious? The team is playing much better on both ends of the court without Melo and Rose. They're actually only -0.6 per 48 min (a little worse than a .500 team) when Melo sits. Granted that's only a sample of about 1000 minutes but it's a reasonably strong performance from a young group of players in that 1000 minutes. I doubt they'd be worse than their .375 right now.

The Knicks have won 1 game in the last two years without Melo...ONE game...

what dumb logic. of course the team is going to lose games when melo doesn't play (although we lose when he plays anyway, so i digress), the roster is built AROUND him. if we removed him from the team, we'd certainly replace him with other players. but i get it, it's easier to just say the team sucks without melo.

I know you will run away when engaged but how is this roster built around him..Talk about dumb!!!

The team is built around him running the triangle...Right...

so all you took from what i said is that the knicks are built around melo? i guess you have reading comprehension issues too.. the main point of the post was that if the knicks got rid of melo, they'd use the capspace to sign other players to play in his place. so your logic of the knicks only have won one game without him the past two years, to infer that the team stinks without him, is some of the dumbest logic i've seen.

holfresh wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Without Rose and Melo

# we suck

Hahaha. Amen. I was going to say the same thing. Amazing how people will scapegoat the stars. Without Rose and Melo could this team even get to the second round of the NCAA tournament? This is a young team, not trying to slag the rookies. But damn. There is not a lot of NBA talent after Rose and Melo on this squad.

Without Rose and melo we'd win 15 games Maybe

Are you serious? The team is playing much better on both ends of the court without Melo and Rose. They're actually only -0.6 per 48 min (a little worse than a .500 team) when Melo sits. Granted that's only a sample of about 1000 minutes but it's a reasonably strong performance from a young group of players in that 1000 minutes. I doubt they'd be worse than their .375 right now.

The Knicks have won 1 game in the last two years without Melo...ONE game...

Yea we definitely need Melo so we can continue missing the postseason. What is it, 4 straight years?

My goodness, where would we be without our star player.

Yeah..Gut the team, bring in scrubs, weak coach and wonder why you can't make the playoffs..It's on one guy...

So you ask some very basic questions.
Are your lead players leading? By example? On the court? In the locker room?
Are your lead players producing what is expected or consistent with their careers?

I mean these are basic type principles which everyone can see... the only reason you cant acknowledge them is they conflict with your singular unilateral anti Phil agenda. There can be no blame but there for you.

Nobody on this team has exceeded this year except Willy and KOQ. KOQ took a big step forward and is a good player. How good? Need more context. Starter good? Doubt it but possible? Bench on a high end team? Could anyone see KOQ coming off the bench for GS or Cle and having an impact on both ends? Yes he could. A for him. Willy showed everything he could in the chances he got. Right now Willy is 4th on the NBA.com rookie ladder. He has fantastic impact and a great motor. Willy's per 36 minutes are nuts: 15ppg, 14rpg, 2.5apg, 1spg, 1.2bpg 53% FGs and 4 PFs per 36 minutes... so even though we see him struggle on D as all young players do he's not hacking and whacking. Jennings, who despite practicing with him probably doesnt know as much about Willy as Holfresh does called him the next Marc Gasol.

That being said the rest have under performed or underwhelmed.

The problem with Melo at this point is he's under performing and has an ego that needs attending to. He also has a huge presence good or bad in that locke rroom. Its not about blame, its about the best way to move on. Lets see Phil get some talent in this mold he envisions, lets give Jeff a roster free of aging under performing stars that need to be catered to. I would like to see those things. I can live with the losses so long as the core of young talent builds. Your boy Isiah's losing was empty as we missed players in their prime like Aldridge and Noah in draft. The team has been bad no doubt, but what good GMs do is dont put all their eggs in a rotten basket like Eddy Curry or Steph Marbury.

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Without Rose and Melo

# we suck

Hahaha. Amen. I was going to say the same thing. Amazing how people will scapegoat the stars. Without Rose and Melo could this team even get to the second round of the NCAA tournament? This is a young team, not trying to slag the rookies. But damn. There is not a lot of NBA talent after Rose and Melo on this squad.

Without Rose and melo we'd win 15 games Maybe

Are you serious? The team is playing much better on both ends of the court without Melo and Rose. They're actually only -0.6 per 48 min (a little worse than a .500 team) when Melo sits. Granted that's only a sample of about 1000 minutes but it's a reasonably strong performance from a young group of players in that 1000 minutes. I doubt they'd be worse than their .375 right now.

The Knicks have won 1 game in the last two years without Melo...ONE game...

Yea we definitely need Melo so we can continue missing the postseason. What is it, 4 straight years?

My goodness, where would we be without our star player.

Yeah..Gut the team, bring in scrubs, weak coach and wonder why you can't make the playoffs..It's on one guy...

He and Rose share the most responsibility because of their status. That includes salary, perceived status in the league and team roles. These are the players that our team is build around. Most people who follow basic pro sports understand how these things work. When a football team cant score, fair or not, the first place you look is the QB. When a pro basketball team stinks the first place you look at the stars. The lead players. The goto guys. The veterans.

So you ask some very basic questions.
Are your lead players leading? By example? On the court? In the locker room?
Are your lead players producing what is expected or consistent with their careers?

I mean these are basic type principles which everyone can see... the only reason you cant acknowledge them is they conflict with your singular unilateral anti Phil agenda. There can be no blame but there for you.

Nobody on this team has exceeded this year except Willy and KOQ. KOQ took a big step forward and is a good player. How good? Need more context. Starter good? Doubt it but possible? Bench on a high end team? Could anyone see KOQ coming off the bench for GS or Cle and having an impact on both ends? Yes he could. A for him. Willy showed everything he could in the chances he got. Right now Willy is 4th on the NBA.com rookie ladder. He has fantastic impact and a great motor. Willy's per 36 minutes are nuts: 15ppg, 14rpg, 2.5apg, 1spg, 1.2bpg 53% FGs and 4 PFs per 36 minutes... so even though we see him struggle on D as all young players do he's not hacking and whacking. Jennings, who despite practicing with him probably doesnt know as much about Willy as Holfresh does called him the next Marc Gasol.

That being said the rest have under performed or underwhelmed.

The problem with Melo at this point is he's under performing and has an ego that needs attending to. He also has a huge presence good or bad in that locke rroom. Its not about blame, its about the best way to move on. Lets see Phil get some talent in this mold he envisions, lets give Jeff a roster free of aging under performing stars that need to be catered to. I would like to see those things. I can live with the losses so long as the core of young talent builds. Your boy Isiah's losing was empty as we missed players in their prime like Aldridge and Noah in draft. The team has been bad no doubt, but what good GMs do is dont put all their eggs in a rotten basket like Eddy Curry or Steph Marbury.

Come on Fish..You are better than that..Everyone knew the bench was garbage...The media picked the team to win in the 30s missing the playoffs...We goofballs thought we knew better hoping for pie in the sky...Phil built a team and coaching staff to achieve what he wanted to accomplish, he is terrible and that is the truth...There was a blueprint for Melo type team success..That clearly wasn't the goal here...But you know what, continue the spin to satisfy your conscience..A few here will buy it..

crzymdups wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Without Rose and Melo

# we suck

Hahaha. Amen. I was going to say the same thing. Amazing how people will scapegoat the stars. Without Rose and Melo could this team even get to the second round of the NCAA tournament? This is a young team, not trying to slag the rookies. But damn. There is not a lot of NBA talent after Rose and Melo on this squad.

Without Rose and melo we'd win 15 games Maybe

Are you serious? The team is playing much better on both ends of the court without Melo and Rose. They're actually only -0.6 per 48 min (a little worse than a .500 team) when Melo sits. Granted that's only a sample of about 1000 minutes but it's a reasonably strong performance from a young group of players in that 1000 minutes. I doubt they'd be worse than their .375 right now.

Just gonna throw this out there - but you realize Melo and Rose were going against the opposing teams' starters, right? The bench guys got their numbers predominantly against the bench. If you think our bench could be a .500 team if they were starting, you need to take a deeper look. The competition would be much stiffer. And they'd be scouted for their tendencies and therefore defended a lot tougher. Rookies' first trip through the league they aren't scouted very heavily. If these Knicks keep starting, I bet you $5 their efficiency falls way off.

I'm not rooting against them, but some of you guys are kind of ridiculous with your blind hate for Melo and Rose. This is a bad team. Melo and Rose have not played well. But without them, we might have one other guy who'd be a regular starter around the league.

LivingLegend wrote:Melo can go suck on a hose -- best day for Knick franchise will be when that stat padding mofo is traded.

We should have kept Lin instead. Oh wait Lin sucks!! But she has great hairdos.

crzymdups wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Without Rose and Melo

# we suck

Hahaha. Amen. I was going to say the same thing. Amazing how people will scapegoat the stars. Without Rose and Melo could this team even get to the second round of the NCAA tournament? This is a young team, not trying to slag the rookies. But damn. There is not a lot of NBA talent after Rose and Melo on this squad.

Without Rose and melo we'd win 15 games Maybe

Are you serious? The team is playing much better on both ends of the court without Melo and Rose. They're actually only -0.6 per 48 min (a little worse than a .500 team) when Melo sits. Granted that's only a sample of about 1000 minutes but it's a reasonably strong performance from a young group of players in that 1000 minutes. I doubt they'd be worse than their .375 right now.

Just gonna throw this out there - but you realize Melo and Rose were going against the opposing teams' starters, right? The bench guys got their numbers predominantly against the bench. If you think our bench could be a .500 team if they were starting, you need to take a deeper look. The competition would be much stiffer. And they'd be scouted for their tendencies and therefore defended a lot tougher. Rookies' first trip through the league they aren't scouted very heavily. If these Knicks keep starting, I bet you $5 their efficiency falls way off.

I'm not rooting against them, but some of you guys are kind of ridiculous with your blind hate for Melo and Rose. This is a bad team. Melo and Rose have not played well. But without them, we might have one other guy who'd be a regular starter around the league.

So you're saying Melo and Rose can't keep up with NBA starters? I'd agree with that.
I never mentioned the team playing .500 without (or with) Melo and Rose for a whole season. I said I didn't think they'd be worse than .375.

nyk4ever wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Without Rose and Melo

# we suck

Hahaha. Amen. I was going to say the same thing. Amazing how people will scapegoat the stars. Without Rose and Melo could this team even get to the second round of the NCAA tournament? This is a young team, not trying to slag the rookies. But damn. There is not a lot of NBA talent after Rose and Melo on this squad.

Without Rose and melo we'd win 15 games Maybe

Are you serious? The team is playing much better on both ends of the court without Melo and Rose. They're actually only -0.6 per 48 min (a little worse than a .500 team) when Melo sits. Granted that's only a sample of about 1000 minutes but it's a reasonably strong performance from a young group of players in that 1000 minutes. I doubt they'd be worse than their .375 right now.

The Knicks have won 1 game in the last two years without Melo...ONE game...

what dumb logic. of course the team is going to lose games when melo doesn't play (although we lose when he plays anyway, so i digress), the roster is built AROUND him. if we removed him from the team, we'd certainly replace him with other players. but i get it, it's easier to just say the team sucks without melo.

Replace him with who, a d league player, cmon dude be serious, who the hell is signing up to play with players like BAKER, Kuz, , and lance..How encouraging is that...OH yeah, thats a team really on the rise, GTFOH..

Melo and rose would be the only reason a relevant FA who even give this team a 2nd look. Players want to play with other good players, not to say those guys are horrible, but lets get real.

You want to go into next season Fighting for a top pick, is that how you develop winning habits. Hey guys don't worry about winning, just play, disregard the pack house that pays thousands to see you lose very night, the object is to bring down everyone's value so we can trade you for 2nd rnd picks.

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Without Rose and Melo

# we suck

Hahaha. Amen. I was going to say the same thing. Amazing how people will scapegoat the stars. Without Rose and Melo could this team even get to the second round of the NCAA tournament? This is a young team, not trying to slag the rookies. But damn. There is not a lot of NBA talent after Rose and Melo on this squad.

Without Rose and melo we'd win 15 games Maybe

Are you serious? The team is playing much better on both ends of the court without Melo and Rose. They're actually only -0.6 per 48 min (a little worse than a .500 team) when Melo sits. Granted that's only a sample of about 1000 minutes but it's a reasonably strong performance from a young group of players in that 1000 minutes. I doubt they'd be worse than their .375 right now.

Just gonna throw this out there - but you realize Melo and Rose were going against the opposing teams' starters, right? The bench guys got their numbers predominantly against the bench. If you think our bench could be a .500 team if they were starting, you need to take a deeper look. The competition would be much stiffer. And they'd be scouted for their tendencies and therefore defended a lot tougher. Rookies' first trip through the league they aren't scouted very heavily. If these Knicks keep starting, I bet you $5 their efficiency falls way off.

I'm not rooting against them, but some of you guys are kind of ridiculous with your blind hate for Melo and Rose. This is a bad team. Melo and Rose have not played well. But without them, we might have one other guy who'd be a regular starter around the league.

So you're saying Melo and Rose can't keep up with NBA starters? I'd agree with that.
I never mentioned the team playing .500 without (or with) Melo and Rose for a whole season. I said I didn't think they'd be worse than .375.

This is from the guide to tanking article.

The impediment to tanking: Playing Anthony over Ron Baker. Since the All-Star break, the lineup of Derrick Rose, Courtney Lee, Carmelo, Lance Thomas, and Kristaps Porzingis is an impressive +12.1 per 100 possessions. But when you take Melo out and put Baker in his place, the Knicks drop to a -74.7 per 100 possessions.

Well, Melo definitely is better than Ron Baker. I won't argue that. You're looking at a really small sample of games, though.

Bonn1997 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Without Rose and Melo

# we suck

Hahaha. Amen. I was going to say the same thing. Amazing how people will scapegoat the stars. Without Rose and Melo could this team even get to the second round of the NCAA tournament? This is a young team, not trying to slag the rookies. But damn. There is not a lot of NBA talent after Rose and Melo on this squad.

Without Rose and melo we'd win 15 games Maybe

Are you serious? The team is playing much better on both ends of the court without Melo and Rose. They're actually only -0.6 per 48 min (a little worse than a .500 team) when Melo sits. Granted that's only a sample of about 1000 minutes but it's a reasonably strong performance from a young group of players in that 1000 minutes. I doubt they'd be worse than their .375 right now.

The Knicks have won 1 game in the last two years without Melo...ONE game...

what dumb logic. of course the team is going to lose games when melo doesn't play (although we lose when he plays anyway, so i digress), the roster is built AROUND him. if we removed him from the team, we'd certainly replace him with other players. but i get it, it's easier to just say the team sucks without melo.

Replace him with who, a d league player, cmon dude be serious, who the hell is signing up to play with players like BAKER, Kuz, , and lance..How encouraging is that...OH yeah, thats a team really on the rise, GTFOH..

Melo and rose would be the only reason a relevant FA who even give this team a 2nd look. Players want to play with other good players, not to say those guys are horrible, but lets get real.

You want to go into next season Fighting for a top pick, is that how you develop winning habits, hey guys don't worry about winning, just play, disregard the pack house every night to see you lose.

No relevant FA is giving this team a look with or without Melo and Rose right now. You're deluding yourself.