meloshouldgo wrote:

Nalod wrote:Ramis is the problem? How does one quantify this? Was he the problem in LA? Is he the problem with Noah? Willy? Kp? KOQ? How is he a problem?
How is he a problem with Bakers defense? or when BJ was playing pesky D and causing disruptions? How is he the problem?

From what I read, Hornacek met with him and hired him.

Also, lots of coaches inherit assistants. it not like Jeff has grown his own tree of guys like Larry, Phil and others do over long time.
Jeff is the head coach, and until otherwise, its his job blame or glory!

You can't coach effort and its hard to coach a revolving door too! We have lots of new guys, and a new coach this year. We are not a stable organization but we are starting to build a foundation for the first time in many years and it does not begin with Melo.

We have a culture, system and process that is bringing in youthier talent and they are developing. What is not doing so great is the talented proven veterans who are resisting the system or giving the proper effort on defense.

So rather than point a finger on whose to blame, how can one quantify that a better job could have been done by rambis and not another coach, and that its not Jeff? or anything else?

Having an agenda is convenient isn't it?

Good post, I agree. People with agendas seem to pile on each other's posts to make it sound like they are putting across some mainstream idea. Rambis has actually done ok this year. Knicks play good defense when they have the second unit on the floor. Its only when our "stars" take the floor which is early and often does our defense suck.

Stop being naïve, you know damn well, no phil, no rambis, so just cut it out, there's no agenda here.
Every one knows, coaches put the most work in during the last 5 mins of a game. You don't believe me, go on youtube and watch the the ROUND TABLE INTERVIEW with 6 NBA COACHES including, MDA, Tom Thibs, McHale, Gentry and a few others.

Being a good coach means adjusting to your players, everybody with good sense knows this, and it's been echoed on this same board 100's of times. In the beginning we adjust the system to benefit Jennings and rose, running similar plays to JH's Suns days. Then phil drop the " we aren't running the triangle enough" in early December, and then came close losses, which showed a terrible lack of execution in the clutch, when prior to that we were winning the close games.

No one on this roster has been anything remotely close to consistent, young, old or new player.

I wanna see my COACH with JVG bags under his eyes, his only excuse after a loss.." I didn't prepare the team enough"

meloshouldgo wrote:

Nalod wrote:Ramis is the problem? How does one quantify this? Was he the problem in LA? Is he the problem with Noah? Willy? Kp? KOQ? How is he a problem?
How is he a problem with Bakers defense? or when BJ was playing pesky D and causing disruptions? How is he the problem?

From what I read, Hornacek met with him and hired him.

Also, lots of coaches inherit assistants. it not like Jeff has grown his own tree of guys like Larry, Phil and others do over long time.
Jeff is the head coach, and until otherwise, its his job blame or glory!

You can't coach effort and its hard to coach a revolving door too! We have lots of new guys, and a new coach this year. We are not a stable organization but we are starting to build a foundation for the first time in many years and it does not begin with Melo.

We have a culture, system and process that is bringing in youthier talent and they are developing. What is not doing so great is the talented proven veterans who are resisting the system or giving the proper effort on defense.

So rather than point a finger on whose to blame, how can one quantify that a better job could have been done by rambis and not another coach, and that its not Jeff? or anything else?

Having an agenda is convenient isn't it?

Good post, I agree. People with agendas seem to pile on each other's posts to make it sound like they are putting across some mainstream idea. Rambis has actually done ok this year. Knicks play good defense when they have the second unit on the floor. Its only when our "stars" take the floor which is early and often does our defense suck.

Stop being naïve, you know damn well, no phil, no rambis, so just cut it out, there's no agenda here.
Every one knows, coaches put the most work in during the last 5 mins of a game. You don't believe me, go on youtube and watch the the ROUND TABLE INTERVIEW with 6 NBA COACHES including, MDA, Tom Thibs, McHale, Gentry and a few others.

Being a good coach means adjusting to your players, everybody with good sense knows this, and it's been echoed on this same board 100's of times. In the beginning we adjust the system to benefit Jennings and rose, running similar plays to JH's Suns days. Then phil drop the " we aren't running the triangle enough" in early December, and the closes losses,which showed a terrible lack of execution in the clutch.

No one on this roster has been anything remotely close to consistent, young, old or new player.

I wanna see my COACH with JVG bags under his eyes, his only excuse after a loss.." I didn't prepare the team enough"

knicks1248 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Nalod wrote:Ramis is the problem? How does one quantify this? Was he the problem in LA? Is he the problem with Noah? Willy? Kp? KOQ? How is he a problem?
How is he a problem with Bakers defense? or when BJ was playing pesky D and causing disruptions? How is he the problem?

From what I read, Hornacek met with him and hired him.

Also, lots of coaches inherit assistants. it not like Jeff has grown his own tree of guys like Larry, Phil and others do over long time.
Jeff is the head coach, and until otherwise, its his job blame or glory!

You can't coach effort and its hard to coach a revolving door too! We have lots of new guys, and a new coach this year. We are not a stable organization but we are starting to build a foundation for the first time in many years and it does not begin with Melo.

We have a culture, system and process that is bringing in youthier talent and they are developing. What is not doing so great is the talented proven veterans who are resisting the system or giving the proper effort on defense.

So rather than point a finger on whose to blame, how can one quantify that a better job could have been done by rambis and not another coach, and that its not Jeff? or anything else?

Having an agenda is convenient isn't it?

Good post, I agree. People with agendas seem to pile on each other's posts to make it sound like they are putting across some mainstream idea. Rambis has actually done ok this year. Knicks play good defense when they have the second unit on the floor. Its only when our "stars" take the floor which is early and often does our defense suck.

Stop being naïve, you know damn well, no phil, no rambis, so just cut it out, there's no agenda here.
Every one knows, coaches put the most work in during the last 5 mins of a game. You don't believe me, go on youtube and watch the the ROUND TABLE INTERVIEW with 6 NBA COACHES including, MDA, Tom Thibs, McHale, Gentry and a few others.

Being a good coach means adjusting to your players, everybody with good sense knows this, and it's been echoed on this same board 100's of times. In the beginning we adjust the system to benefit Jennings and rose, running similar plays to JH's Suns days. Then phil drop the " we aren't running the triangle enough" in early December, and then came close losses, which showed a terrible lack of execution in the clutch, when prior to that we were winning the close games.

No one on this roster has been anything remotely close to consistent, young, old or new player.

I wanna see my COACH with JVG bags under his eyes, his only excuse after a loss.." I didn't prepare the team enough"

Yes, the guy with 11 rings coaching trusts his guys. Its how the tree exists. He trusted Kerr, he trusted Fish. Fish broke the trust. It happens. Im sure PHil was not happy.
The assumption is somtimes like if phil was not here, Pop would be and things would be different. How? The assumption is "Well, phil couldn't have done worse!!".
We don't know. Phil came in and the team was bloody awful. We say he made bad trades, but we don't know what the alternatives were. We just assume.

Im not defending him per se, just defending against populist belief that its easy to compare what you see vs what you can't see. What we can't see is the true nature of some of these players and trades that were not made. We also know not everything reported in the media is accurate when it comes to Phil. Some of the Agenda folk were having full blown anxiety attacks about Phil eating Thai food in Montana when you thought he was content on Rambis. Then you believe that Dolan had a hand in NOT hiring Rambis as head coach. Or that some internet pleas by fans also played into it. Thats interesting.

I think Charles Barkley recent comments about phil and the knicks are pretty reasonable. Lets just say that PHil and medical team might have been encouraged by Noah's health last summer with information not based just on past performance (but it was a better sign of what became!!) and that Rose might have been more willing to obsorb the triangle. What Charles doe not say is the bench was weaker in the first half of the season. Now our depth is pretty good.

What does Phil leaving provide us? Change is not often improvement.

I'd like to see Rambis go and a real Defensive guy come in. One of his guys preferably.

nixluva wrote:Funny thing is the defense looks exponentially better when we put our younger players in!!! Can't really bash Jeff and Rambis when you see with your OWN TWO EYES how much better the team performs in particular minus Rose and to a lesser degree minus Melo.

To really judge Jeff you're gonna have to see how he does without at least one of Melo or Rose!!!

what are u saying .. coach Horn cant get Melo and Rose on the same-page?
It looks to me Horn cant get Noah on the court, nor can Horn get the 5 starters to run back on defense consistently .... our bench players perform well not because of our coaching its more to get playing-time minute to stay in the NBA league. The Knicks are known to add 7 to 10 new players on their roster each offseason for rebuilding

Nalod wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Nalod wrote:Ramis is the problem? How does one quantify this? Was he the problem in LA? Is he the problem with Noah? Willy? Kp? KOQ? How is he a problem?
How is he a problem with Bakers defense? or when BJ was playing pesky D and causing disruptions? How is he the problem?

From what I read, Hornacek met with him and hired him.

Also, lots of coaches inherit assistants. it not like Jeff has grown his own tree of guys like Larry, Phil and others do over long time.
Jeff is the head coach, and until otherwise, its his job blame or glory!

You can't coach effort and its hard to coach a revolving door too! We have lots of new guys, and a new coach this year. We are not a stable organization but we are starting to build a foundation for the first time in many years and it does not begin with Melo.

We have a culture, system and process that is bringing in youthier talent and they are developing. What is not doing so great is the talented proven veterans who are resisting the system or giving the proper effort on defense.

So rather than point a finger on whose to blame, how can one quantify that a better job could have been done by rambis and not another coach, and that its not Jeff? or anything else?

Having an agenda is convenient isn't it?

Good post, I agree. People with agendas seem to pile on each other's posts to make it sound like they are putting across some mainstream idea. Rambis has actually done ok this year. Knicks play good defense when they have the second unit on the floor. Its only when our "stars" take the floor which is early and often does our defense suck.

Stop being naïve, you know damn well, no phil, no rambis, so just cut it out, there's no agenda here.
Every one knows, coaches put the most work in during the last 5 mins of a game. You don't believe me, go on youtube and watch the the ROUND TABLE INTERVIEW with 6 NBA COACHES including, MDA, Tom Thibs, McHale, Gentry and a few others.

Being a good coach means adjusting to your players, everybody with good sense knows this, and it's been echoed on this same board 100's of times. In the beginning we adjust the system to benefit Jennings and rose, running similar plays to JH's Suns days. Then phil drop the " we aren't running the triangle enough" in early December, and then came close losses, which showed a terrible lack of execution in the clutch, when prior to that we were winning the close games.

No one on this roster has been anything remotely close to consistent, young, old or new player.

I wanna see my COACH with JVG bags under his eyes, his only excuse after a loss.." I didn't prepare the team enough"

Yes, the guy with 11 rings coaching trusts his guys. Its how the tree exists. He trusted Kerr, he trusted Fish. Fish broke the trust. It happens. Im sure PHil was not happy.
The assumption is somtimes like if phil was not here, Pop would be and things would be different. How? The assumption is "Well, phil couldn't have done worse!!".
We don't know. Phil came in and the team was bloody awful. We say he made bad trades, but we don't know what the alternatives were. We just assume.

Im not defending him per se, just defending against populist belief that its easy to compare what you see vs what you can't see. What we can't see is the true nature of some of these players and trades that were not made. We also know not everything reported in the media is accurate when it comes to Phil. Some of the Agenda folk were having full blown anxiety attacks about Phil eating Thai food in Montana when you thought he was content on Rambis. Then you believe that Dolan had a hand in NOT hiring Rambis as head coach. Or that some internet pleas by fans also played into it. Thats interesting.

I think Charles Barkley recent comments about phil and the knicks are pretty reasonable. Lets just say that PHil and medical team might have been encouraged by Noah's health last summer with information not based just on past performance (but it was a better sign of what became!!) and that Rose might have been more willing to obsorb the triangle. What Charles doe not say is the bench was weaker in the first half of the season. Now our depth is pretty good.

What does Phil leaving provide us? Change is not often improvement.

What in the world are you talking about, you mean the team that won 54 games, and finish the next season on a hot run 16-6..won't even mention the injuries to shumpert, JR, Tyson, amare and melo miss sometime.

Then he comes in with the triangle, and the players where dumb founded haven't never played in it. 46 players and we still haven't found 5 that could execute consistently in that offense,

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Nalod wrote:Ramis is the problem? How does one quantify this? Was he the problem in LA? Is he the problem with Noah? Willy? Kp? KOQ? How is he a problem?
How is he a problem with Bakers defense? or when BJ was playing pesky D and causing disruptions? How is he the problem?

From what I read, Hornacek met with him and hired him.

Also, lots of coaches inherit assistants. it not like Jeff has grown his own tree of guys like Larry, Phil and others do over long time.
Jeff is the head coach, and until otherwise, its his job blame or glory!

You can't coach effort and its hard to coach a revolving door too! We have lots of new guys, and a new coach this year. We are not a stable organization but we are starting to build a foundation for the first time in many years and it does not begin with Melo.

We have a culture, system and process that is bringing in youthier talent and they are developing. What is not doing so great is the talented proven veterans who are resisting the system or giving the proper effort on defense.

So rather than point a finger on whose to blame, how can one quantify that a better job could have been done by rambis and not another coach, and that its not Jeff? or anything else?

Having an agenda is convenient isn't it?

Good post, I agree. People with agendas seem to pile on each other's posts to make it sound like they are putting across some mainstream idea. Rambis has actually done ok this year. Knicks play good defense when they have the second unit on the floor. Its only when our "stars" take the floor which is early and often does our defense suck.

Stop being naïve, you know damn well, no phil, no rambis, so just cut it out, there's no agenda here.
Every one knows, coaches put the most work in during the last 5 mins of a game. You don't believe me, go on youtube and watch the the ROUND TABLE INTERVIEW with 6 NBA COACHES including, MDA, Tom Thibs, McHale, Gentry and a few others.

Being a good coach means adjusting to your players, everybody with good sense knows this, and it's been echoed on this same board 100's of times. In the beginning we adjust the system to benefit Jennings and rose, running similar plays to JH's Suns days. Then phil drop the " we aren't running the triangle enough" in early December, and then came close losses, which showed a terrible lack of execution in the clutch, when prior to that we were winning the close games.

No one on this roster has been anything remotely close to consistent, young, old or new player.

I wanna see my COACH with JVG bags under his eyes, his only excuse after a loss.." I didn't prepare the team enough"

Yes, the guy with 11 rings coaching trusts his guys. Its how the tree exists. He trusted Kerr, he trusted Fish. Fish broke the trust. It happens. Im sure PHil was not happy.
The assumption is somtimes like if phil was not here, Pop would be and things would be different. How? The assumption is "Well, phil couldn't have done worse!!".
We don't know. Phil came in and the team was bloody awful. We say he made bad trades, but we don't know what the alternatives were. We just assume.

Im not defending him per se, just defending against populist belief that its easy to compare what you see vs what you can't see. What we can't see is the true nature of some of these players and trades that were not made. We also know not everything reported in the media is accurate when it comes to Phil. Some of the Agenda folk were having full blown anxiety attacks about Phil eating Thai food in Montana when you thought he was content on Rambis. Then you believe that Dolan had a hand in NOT hiring Rambis as head coach. Or that some internet pleas by fans also played into it. Thats interesting.

I think Charles Barkley recent comments about phil and the knicks are pretty reasonable. Lets just say that PHil and medical team might have been encouraged by Noah's health last summer with information not based just on past performance (but it was a better sign of what became!!) and that Rose might have been more willing to obsorb the triangle. What Charles doe not say is the bench was weaker in the first half of the season. Now our depth is pretty good.

What does Phil leaving provide us? Change is not often improvement.

What in the world are you talking about, you mean the team that won 54 games, and finish the next season on a hot run 16-6..won't even mention the injuries to shumpert, JR, Tyson, amare and melo miss sometime.

Then he comes in with the triangle, and the players where dumb founded haven't never played in it. 46 players and we still haven't found 5 that could execute consistently in that offense,

The Knicks were 27-39 when Phil join. Period. This reference to 54 games won the previous season is asinine. Every seems to want to highlight the 16-6 finish to the season, how about match that with the 10-22 they opened with?

Plus what's funny is what would keeping those players have accomplished?
A 40 win team at best, that wasn't going to be a contender or young enough to keep getting better?

Here's the thing with Tyson, Bargnani, Amare, Smith, Shump. Where were they taking the Knicks? Where are they now?

Tyson's a starting C on a lottery team that has now benched him.
Amare and Bargnani are out of the league, I think.
Shump has a massive contract and little to show for it.
Smith has done well in CLE as a 3 point shooter, but he is not better than CLee and he isn't a difference maker for a team like the Knicks. He helps the Cavs because they already are a contender without him, and he adds more firepower from outside.

We can't pretend as if that 53 win season where we won one round in the playoffs was going to happen again and again. After JKidd left, the next year the team went lottery. The team was only getting worse with time, not better.

Sure one could argue in the years since Phil has not improved the team enough or got the results, Absolutely true. He made moves, to upgrade the talent, especially this season, but results speak for themselves in that they have had 3 losing seasons in a row under his watch.

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Nalod wrote:Ramis is the problem? How does one quantify this? Was he the problem in LA? Is he the problem with Noah? Willy? Kp? KOQ? How is he a problem?
How is he a problem with Bakers defense? or when BJ was playing pesky D and causing disruptions? How is he the problem?

From what I read, Hornacek met with him and hired him.

Also, lots of coaches inherit assistants. it not like Jeff has grown his own tree of guys like Larry, Phil and others do over long time.
Jeff is the head coach, and until otherwise, its his job blame or glory!

You can't coach effort and its hard to coach a revolving door too! We have lots of new guys, and a new coach this year. We are not a stable organization but we are starting to build a foundation for the first time in many years and it does not begin with Melo.

We have a culture, system and process that is bringing in youthier talent and they are developing. What is not doing so great is the talented proven veterans who are resisting the system or giving the proper effort on defense.

So rather than point a finger on whose to blame, how can one quantify that a better job could have been done by rambis and not another coach, and that its not Jeff? or anything else?

Having an agenda is convenient isn't it?

Good post, I agree. People with agendas seem to pile on each other's posts to make it sound like they are putting across some mainstream idea. Rambis has actually done ok this year. Knicks play good defense when they have the second unit on the floor. Its only when our "stars" take the floor which is early and often does our defense suck.

Stop being naïve, you know damn well, no phil, no rambis, so just cut it out, there's no agenda here.
Every one knows, coaches put the most work in during the last 5 mins of a game. You don't believe me, go on youtube and watch the the ROUND TABLE INTERVIEW with 6 NBA COACHES including, MDA, Tom Thibs, McHale, Gentry and a few others.

Being a good coach means adjusting to your players, everybody with good sense knows this, and it's been echoed on this same board 100's of times. In the beginning we adjust the system to benefit Jennings and rose, running similar plays to JH's Suns days. Then phil drop the " we aren't running the triangle enough" in early December, and then came close losses, which showed a terrible lack of execution in the clutch, when prior to that we were winning the close games.

No one on this roster has been anything remotely close to consistent, young, old or new player.

I wanna see my COACH with JVG bags under his eyes, his only excuse after a loss.." I didn't prepare the team enough"

Yes, the guy with 11 rings coaching trusts his guys. Its how the tree exists. He trusted Kerr, he trusted Fish. Fish broke the trust. It happens. Im sure PHil was not happy.
The assumption is somtimes like if phil was not here, Pop would be and things would be different. How? The assumption is "Well, phil couldn't have done worse!!".
We don't know. Phil came in and the team was bloody awful. We say he made bad trades, but we don't know what the alternatives were. We just assume.

Im not defending him per se, just defending against populist belief that its easy to compare what you see vs what you can't see. What we can't see is the true nature of some of these players and trades that were not made. We also know not everything reported in the media is accurate when it comes to Phil. Some of the Agenda folk were having full blown anxiety attacks about Phil eating Thai food in Montana when you thought he was content on Rambis. Then you believe that Dolan had a hand in NOT hiring Rambis as head coach. Or that some internet pleas by fans also played into it. Thats interesting.

I think Charles Barkley recent comments about phil and the knicks are pretty reasonable. Lets just say that PHil and medical team might have been encouraged by Noah's health last summer with information not based just on past performance (but it was a better sign of what became!!) and that Rose might have been more willing to obsorb the triangle. What Charles doe not say is the bench was weaker in the first half of the season. Now our depth is pretty good.

What does Phil leaving provide us? Change is not often improvement.

What in the world are you talking about, you mean the team that won 54 games, and finish the next season on a hot run 16-6..won't even mention the injuries to shumpert, JR, Tyson, amare and melo miss sometime.

Then he comes in with the triangle, and the players where dumb founded haven't never played in it. 46 players and we still haven't found 5 that could execute consistently in that offense,

The Knicks were 27-39 when Phil join. Period. This reference to 54 games won the previous season is asinine. Every seems to want to highlight the 16-6 finish to the season, how about match that with the 10-22 they opened with?

Tyson Chandler broke his leg in the third game of the season and missed the next 35 games.

Also, Bargnani was on the team and was dragging it down. He got injured in January and the team started getting healthier and immediately started playing better. Phil didn't do a thing for that roster, he had absolutely nothing to do with the roster that finished 16-6, other than that he proceeded to trade it away for spare parts.

yellowboy90 wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Nalod wrote:Ramis is the problem? How does one quantify this? Was he the problem in LA? Is he the problem with Noah? Willy? Kp? KOQ? How is he a problem?
How is he a problem with Bakers defense? or when BJ was playing pesky D and causing disruptions? How is he the problem?

From what I read, Hornacek met with him and hired him.

Also, lots of coaches inherit assistants. it not like Jeff has grown his own tree of guys like Larry, Phil and others do over long time.
Jeff is the head coach, and until otherwise, its his job blame or glory!

You can't coach effort and its hard to coach a revolving door too! We have lots of new guys, and a new coach this year. We are not a stable organization but we are starting to build a foundation for the first time in many years and it does not begin with Melo.

We have a culture, system and process that is bringing in youthier talent and they are developing. What is not doing so great is the talented proven veterans who are resisting the system or giving the proper effort on defense.

So rather than point a finger on whose to blame, how can one quantify that a better job could have been done by rambis and not another coach, and that its not Jeff? or anything else?

Having an agenda is convenient isn't it?

Good post, I agree. People with agendas seem to pile on each other's posts to make it sound like they are putting across some mainstream idea. Rambis has actually done ok this year. Knicks play good defense when they have the second unit on the floor. Its only when our "stars" take the floor which is early and often does our defense suck.

Stop being naïve, you know damn well, no phil, no rambis, so just cut it out, there's no agenda here.
Every one knows, coaches put the most work in during the last 5 mins of a game. You don't believe me, go on youtube and watch the the ROUND TABLE INTERVIEW with 6 NBA COACHES including, MDA, Tom Thibs, McHale, Gentry and a few others.

Being a good coach means adjusting to your players, everybody with good sense knows this, and it's been echoed on this same board 100's of times. In the beginning we adjust the system to benefit Jennings and rose, running similar plays to JH's Suns days. Then phil drop the " we aren't running the triangle enough" in early December, and then came close losses, which showed a terrible lack of execution in the clutch, when prior to that we were winning the close games.

No one on this roster has been anything remotely close to consistent, young, old or new player.

I wanna see my COACH with JVG bags under his eyes, his only excuse after a loss.." I didn't prepare the team enough"

Yes, the guy with 11 rings coaching trusts his guys. Its how the tree exists. He trusted Kerr, he trusted Fish. Fish broke the trust. It happens. Im sure PHil was not happy.
The assumption is somtimes like if phil was not here, Pop would be and things would be different. How? The assumption is "Well, phil couldn't have done worse!!".
We don't know. Phil came in and the team was bloody awful. We say he made bad trades, but we don't know what the alternatives were. We just assume.

Im not defending him per se, just defending against populist belief that its easy to compare what you see vs what you can't see. What we can't see is the true nature of some of these players and trades that were not made. We also know not everything reported in the media is accurate when it comes to Phil. Some of the Agenda folk were having full blown anxiety attacks about Phil eating Thai food in Montana when you thought he was content on Rambis. Then you believe that Dolan had a hand in NOT hiring Rambis as head coach. Or that some internet pleas by fans also played into it. Thats interesting.

I think Charles Barkley recent comments about phil and the knicks are pretty reasonable. Lets just say that PHil and medical team might have been encouraged by Noah's health last summer with information not based just on past performance (but it was a better sign of what became!!) and that Rose might have been more willing to obsorb the triangle. What Charles doe not say is the bench was weaker in the first half of the season. Now our depth is pretty good.

What does Phil leaving provide us? Change is not often improvement.

What in the world are you talking about, you mean the team that won 54 games, and finish the next season on a hot run 16-6..won't even mention the injuries to shumpert, JR, Tyson, amare and melo miss sometime.

Then he comes in with the triangle, and the players where dumb founded haven't never played in it. 46 players and we still haven't found 5 that could execute consistently in that offense,

The Knicks were 27-39 when Phil join. Period. This reference to 54 games won the previous season is asinine. Every seems to want to highlight the 16-6 finish to the season, how about match that with the 10-22 they opened with?

Plus what's funny is what would keeping those players have accomplished?
A 40 win team at best, that wasn't going to be a contender or young enough to keep getting better?

Here's the thing with Tyson, Bargnani, Amare, Smith, Shump. Where were they taking the Knicks? Where are they now?

Tyson's a starting C on a lottery team that has now benched him.
Amare and Bargnani are out of the league, I think.
Shump has a massive contract and little to show for it.
Smith has done well in CLE as a 3 point shooter, but he is not better than CLee and he isn't a difference maker for a team like the Knicks. He helps the Cavs because they already are a contender without him, and he adds more firepower from outside.

We can't pretend as if that 53 win season where we won one round in the playoffs was going to happen again and again. After JKidd left, the next year the team went lottery. The team was only getting worse with time, not better.

Sure one could argue in the years since Phil has not improved the team enough or got the results, Absolutely true. He made moves, to upgrade the talent, especially this season, but results speak for themselves in that they have had 3 losing seasons in a row under his watch.

It's not about what some of those players could have done for the Knicks on the floor it's about what those players could have done for the knicks in gaining assets. Phil fail to capitalize on the assets he had. He also has failed to change the culture he so desperately insisted on needing changing because he is part of the culture failure.

Also, Smith has and probably will always be a better player than Lee because he affects the game in more areas. Plus he is a volume 3pt shooter who shoots it a a clip nearly as good as Lee throughout his career which means he capitalizes on his talent while Lee under performs.

Chandler signed a 3yr $54M deal in Phoenix in 2015, showing he had some value left... the tread is off the wheels now, but he had value in 2014.
Shumpert and JR are still rotation players for one of the best teams in the league, the Cavs have missed JR being injured this year big time.
Felton is still in the league, still average, whatever.
Pablo and Amar'e retired. Que sera.

A better question is where are the players got in return for shredding that team? We have Lance Thomas on the roster, a solid 7th or 8th man with some big time limitations to his game. Shved is in Russia. Calderon is a backup to a backup on some team somwhere. Dalembert? I don't think he played in the league again after he bombed here, did he? Did we get anyone else? Cleanthony Early? Out of the league. Anyone else? I don't remember.

"The wins and losses tell the full story as long as he is employed, and basically the future is unknown other than we have more yoots now then before, some good players developoing despite only one first round pick, and we made some stabs with Rose with trade assets we could afford to gamble with". We are not land locked like the nets, or loaded with bad contracts.

Nalod wrote:And it all adds up to what?
Flu Tyson had value because someone else signed him to a bad contract?
If he had value, why wouldn't phil take it? Didn't we get rid of Felton also? Wasn't Jose suppose to be a back up here? And at $7mm, not a terrible franchise buster.
Defending JR? Nobody ever questioned his talent. Remember this clown came to us because nobody else wanted him. He went to china in the strike year and we needed him.
So its ok for other teams to shed talent, but never the knicks? Good teams shed to make room for players they develop. Oh wait, we had little to none.
Bascially one can slam phil for all his percieved mistakes in hindsight fogetting the market at that very moment in time, and at the same time not counter it with players he did do well on.
But as I have said before:

"The wins and losses tell the full story as long as he is employed, and basically the future is unknown other than we have more yoots now then before, some good players developoing despite only one first round pick, and we made some stabs with Rose with trade assets we could afford to gamble with". We are not land locked like the nets, or loaded with bad contracts.

Calderon was the center piece of the deal. If he was the backup, who was the starter supposed to be in 14-15? Calderon and Dalembert were supposed to be starters who were better fits for the Triangle than Felton and Chandler and thus an upgrade. Phil spoke of making the playoffs with that team.

JR is talented, but a problem child. He looked up to Melo and won Sixth Man of the Year here, averaging 17ppg off the bench. He re-signed for less here. He's a starter for the championship Cavs and will probably be starting in the Finals for the third straight year this year.

It's baloney to say people are slamming Phil in hindsight - I called out the trades as terrible at the time and many others did too.

Phil has done a solid job in the draft and developing young players - though he still has to answer for ditching Jerian Grant after a year for DRose, who most of us can't wait to be rid of. Grant is steadily improving in Chicago, despite a logjam at PG on that weirdly built team.

You can't really defend the trades Phil has made though, they've all been not just bad but horrendously bad. You can say he wanted to clean house, rebuild, whatever. He didn't do it in a productive way. Even Phil admits he could've gotten Jae Crowder from Dallas for Chandler - that would've made it a great trade. Cavs thought they would have to give up a first round pick to get JR, when they didn't have to, they gave up two first rounders to get Mozgov, who they later let go in FA. They re-signed both Shump and JR and they're both key rotation players on a championship team, for which we got nothing in return.

Argue those facts all you want, but it's one reason that we are still rebuilding three years after Phil got here, with years left to go.