nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

holfresh wrote:Our current front office people hasn't provided any buffers for Dolan and any sound advice in hirings over the past decade...Hanging on to them for the purpose "continuity" is just means it's business as usual...And sure they can stay in minor roles at best..It's time we get new NY blood in the organization..We need a new direction...

Isn't that what we have always done? Phil and Walsh were supposed to be those "new direction" type power moves. Both bring in big time personalities that shift the direction of the organization. The problem is, we still have the same owner and media feeds off of the change, turning every move into a circus. Maybe it's time to take a different approach and build from within and keep everything more low-key, which would keep the drama at a minimum. I don't know what the right answer is, no one does. But seems like we have done exactly what you are suggesting many times, but the result will always be the same with Dolan running the show. The change in approach needs to be focusing on building from within, rebuilding with youth, scouting (which seems to be solid), and allowing our young core to build together with minimum outside noise. Continuous change typically results in higher expectations and more disappointments. Time to dial things down a bit.

Let's step back for a second...What have we learned in the last 18 years??..It doesn't matter what talent we have on the floor, if the front office, management doesn't have a plan and on the same page at the coach and players, it really doesn't matter...We brought in two old men who could no longer connect with today's players..I'm also not suggesting this can be done overnight..We need to build a management infrastructure for the long haul..I have not suggested any short term measures that we are used to seeing...I have suggested bringing people to know the organization and the market...Bring in people who are familiar with today's players...There are no quick fixes...

I could not disagree more. It starts with the players and has always started with the players. If you have strong veteran leadership that buys into your culture it works. If you have veterans that have their own agendas your team will be dysfunctional.

What was the one time we have been successful in the last forever? The year we had Jason Kidd running the team and we established a style of play that was P&R, ball movement and defense. Backing him where guys like Tyson and Sheed and we build a whole team around guys like that.

Now our veteran leadership is Melo. Its being the face of the franchise, going to the AS games, building his brand, climbing the scoring list and being happy in NYC with you family. That is the current culture and wont change until there is another bigger more important player on the roster or he leaves. Not a bad guy but we are asking him to be something he isnt. Fail by management? Yes. However appeasing Melo isnt the fix, moving on without him is.

When Melo is gone, and its young guys and vets like Lee and Noah the culture will instantly change. When this is Jeff's team the culture will change. Its not his team and wont be so long as Melo is here. If Melo is surrounded by guys like I mentioned we can win, but we have neither the time or assets to build that roster, and its a 2nd round roster at best as history has shown us. I believe Melo has advanced in the playoffs twice.

It 100% comes down the guys on the floor. Knicks want to play a style that Melo doesnt want to play. Jeff wants to push pace and move the ball. Melo wants to hold it and look for his shots. Everything else is window dressing and that situation isnt changing. DadMelo is a broken dream. He is not going to lead a young roster, move the ball and play hard on defense. Phil may be a douche and an arrogant prick and may have handled the Melo situation poorly, but he's also right in the source of the problem.

GREAT POST!!!!!!!!!!!

As long as you guys keep blaming melo for the Knicks failures like you blamed Amare. Hey young failing team will bring changes every 3 months...

I would like you guys to give me an exple of a team that won a ring building thought draft..other the GSW..who got absolutely lucky with curry and klay.

Like Portland and OKC saw there high picks leave them high and dry because they go tired of losing.
How are going to build something with a 74 yr old president who wish he was the coach. In a yr or 2 when Phil us gone, some else will come in and change everything..

How about EVERY team?

Curry/Klay/Draymond
Lenard/Duncan/Manu/Parker
Wade
Dirk
Kobe
Paul Pierce
Jordan
Hakeem...

Pretty much every team that has won a title did so featuring a STAR player they drafted. Miami's superfriends and Larry's Pistons are the closest anomalies and Miami doesnt win with Shaq or Lebron without Wade.

I mean really? You follow the NBA?

I WAS hoping you didn't bring those names up to prove a point, because almost everyone of those guys were winning the 1st or 2nd yr the were in the league, maybe not a champions ship, but playoffs definitely. All those players had solid vets around them, and stars in there prime around them to help them develop and win

KP is looking at another year of no playoffs, he is on pace to follow, the LOVES, and Cousins just trying to build a young core that will stick, but rarely ever does

I'm not seeing your better alternative! What makes more sense than drafting a new young core, developing them and adding appropriate Free Agents. We already have some veterans but the talent base has to start with high level draft talent.

The problem is not talent, and as long as you keeping thinking that, your kidding yourself, or in straight denial.

Why wouldn't be going after a guy like CP3 who has a player option this off season and his best friend in need of his services, (and he made a public toast about them playing together). I would have been in melo's ear every day telling him to get paul here, rose is a 3rd option. That Instantly helps KP, and Melo become different players. People always think were not a player away, but you take Labron, Paul, Nash, kobe, kidd, type of player off their teams, contender to lottery in the blink of an eye, we all have seen it. Look at The clips now, barely 500 since pauls injury with Blake back

I don't care what you guys think about phil, but just know that he has the 2nd worst RECORD of any president in the league since he got here, The worse record in the same span as any president for the franchise, he crush the franchise worst season record with the 17 (rebuild)win season.That is hard to overlook

This franchise doesn't develop, the CBA gives players the ability to bounce way quicker than ever before, big markets don't mean JACK in the internet/social media ERA..

This Fantasy about bulding a core from 2 or 3 drafts is so far fetch, you guys act like this is the 90's or early 2k. This is a buddy buddy league, a the money is wide spread, and not just big markets, over seas as well.

NOTHING will work with out a leader, or a leadership, you can change the roster 5 million times, and them Fckers will look lost in the face of adversity like they did last night against OKC, and time and time again last season.

ONE MORE THNG, we have the worst 3 point defense since FISHER LEFT..do your research. Thats more of a system failure, not talent when 20 different players have the same results.

Trust Me, Melo is a small part of the problem, you can not win in this league without a couple stars, "take over the game stars" Thats why phil chased him down. Phil wouldn't have won sht without ISO JORDAN AND KOBE, and those are guards not FWDS.

Phils 3 BEST PLAYERS COMBINE TO DISH 8 ASSIST PPG

KP -1
Melo-3
Rose 4

JamesKPolk wrote:This is a new NBA. Isolation does not win games. LeBron, Durant, Curry, etc are not isolation players.

What kills me is that are we calling ISO's or are the players and coaching staff just relying on him to get double team and hopes he pass, cause nobody really cuts hard. It seems that when the bench lost the lead, they brought melo and they just kept going out their way to get him ball every time down., and he feels obligated to score, because no else was hitting anything.

When KP gets the ball and he shoots all the time, It's like he's trying (more less) to prove himself as oppose to letting the game come to him.

Rose can score so easy it's embarrasing to see him blow by opponents

Our a bench can look so good and so bad all in the same quarter

But the sagging on PnR defense, and going under screens is the death of this teams.

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

holfresh wrote:Our current front office people hasn't provided any buffers for Dolan and any sound advice in hirings over the past decade...Hanging on to them for the purpose "continuity" is just means it's business as usual...And sure they can stay in minor roles at best..It's time we get new NY blood in the organization..We need a new direction...

Isn't that what we have always done? Phil and Walsh were supposed to be those "new direction" type power moves. Both bring in big time personalities that shift the direction of the organization. The problem is, we still have the same owner and media feeds off of the change, turning every move into a circus. Maybe it's time to take a different approach and build from within and keep everything more low-key, which would keep the drama at a minimum. I don't know what the right answer is, no one does. But seems like we have done exactly what you are suggesting many times, but the result will always be the same with Dolan running the show. The change in approach needs to be focusing on building from within, rebuilding with youth, scouting (which seems to be solid), and allowing our young core to build together with minimum outside noise. Continuous change typically results in higher expectations and more disappointments. Time to dial things down a bit.

Let's step back for a second...What have we learned in the last 18 years??..It doesn't matter what talent we have on the floor, if the front office, management doesn't have a plan and on the same page at the coach and players, it really doesn't matter...We brought in two old men who could no longer connect with today's players..I'm also not suggesting this can be done overnight..We need to build a management infrastructure for the long haul..I have not suggested any short term measures that we are used to seeing...I have suggested bringing people to know the organization and the market...Bring in people who are familiar with today's players...There are no quick fixes...

I could not disagree more. It starts with the players and has always started with the players. If you have strong veteran leadership that buys into your culture it works. If you have veterans that have their own agendas your team will be dysfunctional.

What was the one time we have been successful in the last forever? The year we had Jason Kidd running the team and we established a style of play that was P&R, ball movement and defense. Backing him where guys like Tyson and Sheed and we build a whole team around guys like that.

Now our veteran leadership is Melo. Its being the face of the franchise, going to the AS games, building his brand, climbing the scoring list and being happy in NYC with you family. That is the current culture and wont change until there is another bigger more important player on the roster or he leaves. Not a bad guy but we are asking him to be something he isnt. Fail by management? Yes. However appeasing Melo isnt the fix, moving on without him is.

When Melo is gone, and its young guys and vets like Lee and Noah the culture will instantly change. When this is Jeff's team the culture will change. Its not his team and wont be so long as Melo is here. If Melo is surrounded by guys like I mentioned we can win, but we have neither the time or assets to build that roster, and its a 2nd round roster at best as history has shown us. I believe Melo has advanced in the playoffs twice.

It 100% comes down the guys on the floor. Knicks want to play a style that Melo doesnt want to play. Jeff wants to push pace and move the ball. Melo wants to hold it and look for his shots. Everything else is window dressing and that situation isnt changing. DadMelo is a broken dream. He is not going to lead a young roster, move the ball and play hard on defense. Phil may be a douche and an arrogant prick and may have handled the Melo situation poorly, but he's also right in the source of the problem.

GREAT POST!!!!!!!!!!!

As long as you guys keep blaming melo for the Knicks failures like you blamed Amare. Hey young failing team will bring changes every 3 months...

I would like you guys to give me an exple of a team that won a ring building thought draft..other the GSW..who got absolutely lucky with curry and klay.

Like Portland and OKC saw there high picks leave them high and dry because they go tired of losing.
How are going to build something with a 74 yr old president who wish he was the coach. In a yr or 2 when Phil us gone, some else will come in and change everything..

How about EVERY team?

Curry/Klay/Draymond
Lenard/Duncan/Manu/Parker
Wade
Dirk
Kobe
Paul Pierce
Jordan
Hakeem...

Pretty much every team that has won a title did so featuring a STAR player they drafted. Miami's superfriends and Larry's Pistons are the closest anomalies and Miami doesnt win with Shaq or Lebron without Wade.

I mean really? You follow the NBA?

I WAS hoping you didn't bring those names up to prove a point, because almost everyone of those guys were winning the 1st or 2nd yr the were in the league, maybe not a champions ship, but playoffs definitely. All those players had solid vets around them, and stars in there prime around them to help them develop and win

KP is looking at another year of no playoffs, he is on pace to follow, the LOVES, and Cousins just trying to build a young core that will stick, but rarely ever does

I'm not seeing your better alternative! What makes more sense than drafting a new young core, developing them and adding appropriate Free Agents. We already have some veterans but the talent base has to start with high level draft talent.

The problem is not talent, and as long as you keeping thinking that, your kidding yourself, or in straight denial.

Why wouldn't be going after a guy like CP3 who has a player option this off season and his best friend in need of his services, (and he made a public toast about them playing together). I would have been in melo's ear every day telling him to get paul here, rose is a 3rd option. That Instantly helps KP, and Melo become different players. People always think were not a player away, but you take Labron, Paul, Nash, kobe, kidd, type of player off their teams, contender to lottery in the blink of an eye, we all have seen it. Look at The clips now, barely 500 since pauls injury with Blake back

I don't care what you guys think about phil, but just know that he has the 2nd worst RECORD of any president in the league since he got here, The worse record in the same span as any president for the franchise, he crush the franchise worst season record with the 17 (rebuild)win season.That is hard to overlook

This franchise doesn't develop, the CBA gives players the ability to bounce way quicker than ever before, big markets don't mean JACK in the internet/social media ERA..

This Fantasy about bulding a core from 2 or 3 drafts is so far fetch, you guys act like this is the 90's or early 2k. This is a buddy buddy league, a the money is wide spread, and not just big markets, over seas as well.

NOTHING will work with out a leader, or a leadership, you can change the roster 5 million times, and them Fckers will look lost in the face of adversity like they did last night against OKC, and time and time again last season.

ONE MORE THNG, we have the worst 3 point defense since FISHER LEFT..do your research. Thats more of a system failure, not talent when 20 different players have the same results.

Trust Me, Melo is a small part of the problem, you can not win in this league without a couple stars, "take over the game stars" Thats why phil chased him down. Phil wouldn't have won sht without ISO JORDAN AND KOBE, and those are guards not FWDS.

Phils 3 BEST PLAYERS COMBINE TO DISH 8 ASSIST PPG

KP -1
Melo-3
Rose 4

IMO this isn't about the W/L record under Phil. Phil hasn't succeeded in putting a winning team together but that isn't the only thing he's been trying to do. IMO his need to continue along this path is no longer there. We can all see the writing on the wall and where the team's future rests. It's not in Melo or any other older vet. It's clearly going to involve KP, Willy and younger players here now and new additions. What is wrong with building from that base?

I'm not sure why you assume that the Knicks won't land a Draft Talent that has leadership qualities and is a Team oriented player that will help ball movement. Why that player won't have the ability to TAKE OVER THE GAME in crucial periods. On top of this the team as a whole is going to be built with Team Oriented Players. That's the direction that Phil and his team want to move in. Forget Rose and Melo. They had a chance and refused to buy into the TEAM concept. That's not going to happen again.

holfresh wrote:It's been 18 years since Dolan has taken over and we are worse off than what he inherited, no pun intended..James Dolan isn't going anywhere...We need to rebuild this organization for the long term..We need NYers, essentially people who knows the team, media, and the type of players that can thrive here..Dolan needs an infrastructure around him. He isn't good at running the team and isn't good at hiring people to run the run...He needs buffers that can run the organization and know basketball..we need people who are charming and can deal with the media and can attract players...Speak to the softer side of Dolan that people aren't aware of...Mills and Houston isn't getting the job done...They should be playing a more prominent roles in the organization as the face of management...Keep Dolan out of the spot light...It starts at the top and down thru the organization...

They can't trade Melo..Melo should be part of this organization going forward...The way he has handled the press in all the turmoil has been nothing short of remarkable/commendable...It's time we get some stability in the organization with people that players want to be around...Melo is well respected around the league...Retire Melo as a Knick..Something we didn't do for Ewing..I know, Ewing wanted to leave..Hire Mark Jackson...Sort out the roles later...

The people and the pieces can be sorted out later, but a big part of the problem is that the Knicks organization doesn't take care of it's own...It's time we put a new face on how things are done here..Dolan is screaming for help...Phil isn't it..Phil was brought here to lay on the charm and basketball knowledge but has fallen short...Doesn't make him a bad guy...This is a young man's game, even in the front office...

Let start down a different road...

I was really liking everything you were saying until you said that the Knicks don't take care of their own. So you must be speaking of Ewing and Oakley because they've given jobs to many other ex Knicks which were their own?? A.Houston, J.Starks, A.Mason, L.Johnson are all ex Knicks who are working for the Knicks and there's others as well. Pretty much everything else you said i absolutely agree with but we need Phil gone before we can get the right people in here. I look at him as enemy #1 when it comes to getting free agents to come here and to get a better relationship with the media and fans.

EnySpree wrote:

holfresh wrote:

JamesKPolk wrote:This is a new NBA. Isolation does not win games. LeBron, Durant, Curry, etc are not isolation players.

LeBron went ISO against GS in the finals..Wasn't he taking like 30 spots per...ISOmost times down court?..I remember his fg% being awful but would score 44 for the win..Could be the year b4..

ISO has its place..The Knicks look to Melo too much tho..I blame the coach..

Melo calls his own number. Remember that last second shot Melo took and Hornacek turned around and walked away as soon as Melo broke the play and threw up a shot? That shows you who is to blame. Melo wants the ball. He holds it. Phil criticized him and Hornacek wants ball movement. Melo doesn't know how to play like that. At least not when he's the lead scorer

Yeah, I remember that one particular play, so does that make it true for all plays going forward...Who coaches the team then??..Bench him...If Hornacek can't manage the team, he shouldn't be coach...But that said, all players break plays...All of them...

holfresh wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

holfresh wrote:

JamesKPolk wrote:This is a new NBA. Isolation does not win games. LeBron, Durant, Curry, etc are not isolation players.

LeBron went ISO against GS in the finals..Wasn't he taking like 30 spots per...ISOmost times down court?..I remember his fg% being awful but would score 44 for the win..Could be the year b4..

ISO has its place..The Knicks look to Melo too much tho..I blame the coach..

Melo calls his own number. Remember that last second shot Melo took and Hornacek turned around and walked away as soon as Melo broke the play and threw up a shot? That shows you who is to blame. Melo wants the ball. He holds it. Phil criticized him and Hornacek wants ball movement. Melo doesn't know how to play like that. At least not when he's the lead scorer

Yeah, I remember that one particular play, so does that make it true for all plays going forward...Who coaches the team then??..Bench him...If Hornacek can't manage the team, he shouldn't be coach...But that said, all players break plays...All of them...

fishmike wrote:

nixluva wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

JamesKPolk wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

holfresh wrote:

EnySpree wrote:Is this a post from 2017 or 2007?

Bruh.... we have all our picks. 1 borderline allstar per fwd. One up and coming big man. Ron Baker has potential. We have a healthy Cap situation. Phil is chill contrary to popular belief... all is good in knick land. We are already rebuilding

Honestly, you have no idea if Phil is rebuilding or not..I suggest to you that Phil has no idea if he is rebuilding or not..He just gave 32 yr old Noah 72 mil over 4 years and signed Lee to 4 years too..He is giving Rose a look over...You and I have no clue what's happening and Phil isn't saying...Bruh...

I do have a clue. I gave my reasoning. You want to cry. You should join save the children. There are plenty of people in the world that can use the water

If we are rebuilding then this is the worst attempt at rebuilding I've ever seen.

How is rebuilding supposed to go? I'm not saying we're prong on a clinic, but Phil tried to help Melo now while so trying to aquire young players. I think he's doing a good job. The win now isn't working but the young player part is

Can't really complain about having 2 of the up and coming young players in the league on your roster. Phil didn't have picks every year and still managed to do a good job with young players. Now he needs to more fully focus on building a new young core. He knows what kind of players he's looking for. I think this is the right way to go and I hope Phil goes HARD in this direction.

since he's been in here he's brought in young guys and worked hard to build a pipeline considering he's had one first in 3 years. I regret not resigning Langston. I think he's what they hope Ron Baker can be. But LG is still an example of Phil's desire to build and get younger. No traded future #1s and his refusal to use future assets like Zeke resulted in Noah, a real stretch as FA signing... but if that's Phil's big blunder so what. Its a mistake that doesnt set us back. I am just fine with that.

Phil has a lot he needs to execute on. I think if he doesnt come away with another legit building block player in this draft hes done a bad to below average job here... a D+. If he gets another stud then that goes up to B+ because the perspective is he tried to roll with Melo, it didnt work, but after 3 years we have a decent roster with a core of KP/Willy/other stud. Sometimes better to be lucky than good, but you have to be in position. Imagine if we win this draft or move up to 2 or 3? Suddenly we DID rebuild and are flexible moving forward. So when people say "one player away" guess what... we almost are. Not from competing, but from having a real core to move forward with. Sure it would take some luck but imagine we start next year with a young core of KP/Willy/Fultz with guys like Noah/KOQ/Lance/Baker/Holiday/Kuz etc etc coming back and taking small steps forward? No we arent beating the Cavs but I can get behind that.

Man people really do just wanna cry

At some point there has to be a recognition of the need to move in a different direction for once. We've literally tried everything but a rebuild and Phil has the clout to actually get that done. This team will be able to BUILD for success and the process is already under way!!!

Let's try to take this a step at a time. No more quick fixes that don't work and cost too much. There's a chance this team could land a core player this summer and Phil should do what is necessary to help make that a reality.