Vmart wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Vmart wrote:I don't think you guys understand what Phil is doing. He is trying to ignite a fire in Melo to win and not lose. Stop accepting losses as ho-hum. Losses should eat at him like the worst thing in the world for his legacy.

As Shaq has said - these media mind games might work better if Phil was the coach and leading Melo in practice every day, establishing something positive in their relationship. Right now from all accounts, Melo and Phil's only relationship is Phil sniping through the media at Melo. It doesn't seem to be working all that well.

The simple fact is that this team was playing well and seemed to be coming together at 14-10 before Phil started sniping. I think Phil wants Melo to win, but I also think that he wants Melo to win via the Triangle. And Phil has once again not built a team capable of playing the Triangle. Speaking of being concerned with legacies, I think we all understand that Phil cares as much about the legacy of the Triangle as anything else.

No we dont. I guess I am one of the ignorant. Phil has said he wants to play, build a roster around and have a coach that implements system basketball around ball movement and defense. He has said several times it does NOT have to be the triangle, but that he uses that example as its what he's familiar with.

Phil has always been an egotistical prick. We all knew that from watching coach the Lakers and Bulls. MJ was one of the leagues biggest a-holes. Kobe too. Lebron yells and snipes at teammates. But Melo wants everyone to be his buddy. See where I am going with this?

Tell you what I do understand...

Melo cares more about scoring points, AS games and Olympic medals than winning games in the NBA. Get em next time. Negative attention bothers MElo. Losing not so much.
Phil cares more about winning games than the triangle, his legacy or Jeannie's ass.

Well, like I said, you get judged by results not intentions. You have the head coach Phil hired saying Phil is becoming a distraction. Every player on the team is sick of this circus. Courtney Lee, a player signed by Phil six months ago, says they're "beyond pep talks from Phil now." He's doing a **** job and it's amazing you guys continue to defend this crap. He was one of the best coaches of all time. He's doing a **** job here in a different role. Jordan was one of the best players of all time. And a terrible GM. It happens. All roles in basketball are not the same and require different skillsets.

And Phil wants to install the Triangle. Charley Rosen bemoaned Hornacek not committing to installing the Triangle. That's Phil talking. If you don't believe that, we can agree to disagree.

What is it do you think I am defending? I dont have a ton of nice to say about Phil aside from not trading picks. Yes I have offered some perspective a bit deeper than Phil sucks Phil sucks Phil sucks. If you see that as defending him so be it.

The guy I am tired of defending is Melo. I still think he's a great player but he's not a leader or a face of a franchise. He's simply too OK with losing so long as he's scoring and building his brand. I think thats what set Phil off, along with a refusal to stop the ball holding ISO play. Its possible seeing KP hold it longer and longer is pissing him off as well, not to mention KP's defensive regression from last year. Could it simply be that he see's a negative influence on KP? Those dots certainly connect as well. We were not playing great at 14-10. We were winning games 1-1 and closing out last possession with wins. I think its more likely Phil simply didnt see it as sustainable. To think a tweet, that was complimentary as well as having some valid criticism, could crumble this season so entirely tells me we need tougher player. That starts with the guy who's the face of the franchise and everyone's buddy in the lockerroom.

Billups said Melo needs strong leadership. Tyson said losing Kidd's leadership is what hurt the Knicks above all else. We just need to break away from this relationship. It will NOT make us a better team. It will allow us to take a step back in order to take 2-3 steps forward.

Yes, I've said that many times, too. I agree with the last part.

And I agree with the fact that we need to move on from Melo. But did I give Melo a no trade clause? Did I give Melo a 15% trade kicker? No. That's what Phil did. I don't disagree with his intentions, but I disagree with his methods and I think they've been proven to be ineffective. Phil's attempts to nudge Melo toward the door have resulted in Melo doubling down on staying here, created rifts on the team, and apparently one with the coach, too. Could this have been handled better? YES. And THAT is Phil's job. Everyone can see it's time to move on from Melo - Everyone. What matters is getting it done and how you do that. So far Phil has done a terrible job at it and we are currently, once again, back in our familiar spot as laughing stock of the entire league.

That last part about being the laughingstock of the entire league gets more tired to me than defending Melo, to be honest.

I don't understand why your offended if they are laughing stocks or not. It doesn't matter. Its a state of the moment which can change. Complacency is what needs to be fought here that is what the real problem is. Phil I truly believe knows what the mistake he made with Melo and its no doubt the NTC. Melo is all about the money and he wants his destination plus the extra cash. Most likely the best deals are other teams than what Melo wants.

The question is you know the Knicks and Melo are not going to win here its a given. I don't understand why Melo doesn't want to move on you would think he wants a ring.

Yes, you're missing what I'm upset about. It's not the idea that Melo needs to move on. It is HOW PHIL JACKSON IS DOING HIS JOB.

crzymdups wrote:

Vmart wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Vmart wrote:I don't think you guys understand what Phil is doing. He is trying to ignite a fire in Melo to win and not lose. Stop accepting losses as ho-hum. Losses should eat at him like the worst thing in the world for his legacy.

As Shaq has said - these media mind games might work better if Phil was the coach and leading Melo in practice every day, establishing something positive in their relationship. Right now from all accounts, Melo and Phil's only relationship is Phil sniping through the media at Melo. It doesn't seem to be working all that well.

The simple fact is that this team was playing well and seemed to be coming together at 14-10 before Phil started sniping. I think Phil wants Melo to win, but I also think that he wants Melo to win via the Triangle. And Phil has once again not built a team capable of playing the Triangle. Speaking of being concerned with legacies, I think we all understand that Phil cares as much about the legacy of the Triangle as anything else.

No we dont. I guess I am one of the ignorant. Phil has said he wants to play, build a roster around and have a coach that implements system basketball around ball movement and defense. He has said several times it does NOT have to be the triangle, but that he uses that example as its what he's familiar with.

Phil has always been an egotistical prick. We all knew that from watching coach the Lakers and Bulls. MJ was one of the leagues biggest a-holes. Kobe too. Lebron yells and snipes at teammates. But Melo wants everyone to be his buddy. See where I am going with this?

Tell you what I do understand...

Melo cares more about scoring points, AS games and Olympic medals than winning games in the NBA. Get em next time. Negative attention bothers MElo. Losing not so much.
Phil cares more about winning games than the triangle, his legacy or Jeannie's ass.

Well, like I said, you get judged by results not intentions. You have the head coach Phil hired saying Phil is becoming a distraction. Every player on the team is sick of this circus. Courtney Lee, a player signed by Phil six months ago, says they're "beyond pep talks from Phil now." He's doing a **** job and it's amazing you guys continue to defend this crap. He was one of the best coaches of all time. He's doing a **** job here in a different role. Jordan was one of the best players of all time. And a terrible GM. It happens. All roles in basketball are not the same and require different skillsets.

And Phil wants to install the Triangle. Charley Rosen bemoaned Hornacek not committing to installing the Triangle. That's Phil talking. If you don't believe that, we can agree to disagree.

What is it do you think I am defending? I dont have a ton of nice to say about Phil aside from not trading picks. Yes I have offered some perspective a bit deeper than Phil sucks Phil sucks Phil sucks. If you see that as defending him so be it.

The guy I am tired of defending is Melo. I still think he's a great player but he's not a leader or a face of a franchise. He's simply too OK with losing so long as he's scoring and building his brand. I think thats what set Phil off, along with a refusal to stop the ball holding ISO play. Its possible seeing KP hold it longer and longer is pissing him off as well, not to mention KP's defensive regression from last year. Could it simply be that he see's a negative influence on KP? Those dots certainly connect as well. We were not playing great at 14-10. We were winning games 1-1 and closing out last possession with wins. I think its more likely Phil simply didnt see it as sustainable. To think a tweet, that was complimentary as well as having some valid criticism, could crumble this season so entirely tells me we need tougher player. That starts with the guy who's the face of the franchise and everyone's buddy in the lockerroom.

Billups said Melo needs strong leadership. Tyson said losing Kidd's leadership is what hurt the Knicks above all else. We just need to break away from this relationship. It will NOT make us a better team. It will allow us to take a step back in order to take 2-3 steps forward.

Yes, I've said that many times, too. I agree with the last part.

And I agree with the fact that we need to move on from Melo. But did I give Melo a no trade clause? Did I give Melo a 15% trade kicker? No. That's what Phil did. I don't disagree with his intentions, but I disagree with his methods and I think they've been proven to be ineffective. Phil's attempts to nudge Melo toward the door have resulted in Melo doubling down on staying here, created rifts on the team, and apparently one with the coach, too. Could this have been handled better? YES. And THAT is Phil's job. Everyone can see it's time to move on from Melo - Everyone. What matters is getting it done and how you do that. So far Phil has done a terrible job at it and we are currently, once again, back in our familiar spot as laughing stock of the entire league.

That last part about being the laughingstock of the entire league gets more tired to me than defending Melo, to be honest.

I don't understand why your offended if they are laughing stocks or not. It doesn't matter. Its a state of the moment which can change. Complacency is what needs to be fought here that is what the real problem is. Phil I truly believe knows what the mistake he made with Melo and its no doubt the NTC. Melo is all about the money and he wants his destination plus the extra cash. Most likely the best deals are other teams than what Melo wants.

The question is you know the Knicks and Melo are not going to win here its a given. I don't understand why Melo doesn't want to move on you would think he wants a ring.

Yes, you're missing what I'm upset about. It's not the idea that Melo needs to move on. It is HOW PHIL JACKSON IS DOING HIS JOB.

There is only so much Phil can do. Do you remember how Marbury got treated by Walsh and MDA? Eventually got bought out.

nixluva wrote:Melo knows what time it is! Why exactly is he resisting the obvious? Why would he resist going to a winning situation? This is what everyone should be focusing on rather than being angry at Phil for tweeting.

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:Melo knows what time it is! Why exactly is he resisting the obvious? Why would he resist going to a winning situation? This is what everyone should be focusing on rather than being angry at Phil for tweeting.

Is he resisting? The only thing that came out was after Phil went out and trashed him again Wojo reported that he might stay because Phil is acting like an @ss and never had a conversation with Melo about what direction the team wants to go.

My point is why does Melo need a special talk when it's clear the Knicks want to trade him? Melo should be the one demanding a trade to a team ready to win. So why is he not looking to go to a team with a legit chance to contend? Melo knows damned well this team has no shot and needs to rebuild so why is he hanging on?

markvmc wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:Melo knows what time it is! Why exactly is he resisting the obvious? Why would he resist going to a winning situation? This is what everyone should be focusing on rather than being angry at Phil for tweeting.

Is he resisting? The only thing that came out was after Phil went out and trashed him again Wojo reported that he might stay because Phil is acting like an @ss and never had a conversation with Melo about what direction the team wants to go.

My point is why does Melo need a special talk when it's clear the Knicks want to trade him? Melo should be the one demanding a trade to a team ready to win. So why is he not looking to go to a team with a legit chance to contend? Melo knows damned well this team has no shot and needs to rebuild so why is he hanging on?

If he's happy here, why should he want to go somewhere else? I live in Queens, I like my job well enough, even though I could probably make (a little bit) more of a splash elsewhere. If my employers wanted to ship me out, and I didn't want to, why should I go with that?

He's supposed to be about WINNING, not being comfortable. Why would he not want to go to a winning team that needs him for a playoff run at the Finals. No one can explain that thinking. He knows he's not wanted and that the team is looking to rebuild around KP etc. so why not look for a better situation???

markvmc wrote:Why is he supposed to be about winning? Maybe he is just about being comfortable. What would be wrong with that?

In Sports? That's contrary to the entire nature of competition!!! You play to win the game! This is just not logical and concerning that Melo is content to hang around under these circumstances. Pride and a desire to WIN should be motivation for Melo to ask for a trade.

smackeddog wrote:

markvmc wrote:Why is he supposed to be about winning? Maybe he is just about being comfortable. What would be wrong with that?

Absolutely nothing- that's completely fine. But I don't want someone who is happy just being comfortable, to be the face of my franchise or the leader of my team.

Nalod wrote:I have very little problem with Melo. I thought early in the season he was about passing, on record to say he'd sacrifice his game, and making the playoffs.........
Seems like he has gone back to IsoMelo. Looks mad when he does good, smiles when he misses in close situations. Thats my only complaint, oh, and the winning thing.
I think Phil wants to succeed and if a Melo led team can't make the playoffs with this roster, even with Noah's injuries, then why should we think it would happen the rest of his contract.

Complete utter BS...Complete...Melo is Phil's scapegoat for yet again assembling a piss poor ball club with piss poor coaches...We are losing because of ISO-Melo..I guess if you say it often enough, people will believe it..Then bench him...He is the only reason anyone will tune in or show up at the Garden...

He gave Noah 70 mil...How can that be overlooked???..Could you imagine if we had another back court/wing guy who can defend with that money...Phil is building a team for the 90s era, with 90s rules...

Nalod wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Nalod wrote:I have very little problem with Melo. I thought early in the season he was about passing, on record to say he'd sacrifice his game, and making the playoffs.........
Seems like he has gone back to IsoMelo. Looks mad when he does good, smiles when he misses in close situations. Thats my only complaint, oh, and the winning thing.
I think Phil wants to succeed and if a Melo led team can't make the playoffs with this roster, even with Noah's injuries, then why should we think it would happen the rest of his contract.

Complete utter BS...Complete...Melo is Phil's scapegoat for yet again assembling a piss poor ball club with piss poor coaches...We are losing because of ISO-Melo..Then bench him...He is the only reason anyone will tune in or show up at the Garden...

He gave Noah 70 mil...How can that be overlooked???..Could you imagine if we had another back court guy who can defend with that money...Phil is building a team for the 90s...

You have your view, and very intent to defend it at every turn. I have mine.
Trade deadline is here. When the best player on your team is a max guy, afforded all the perks that come with that, including a NTC, and your not playing the role, passing the rock, and being the emotional leader, including defense crunch time, then it will drizzle down. If this is the best it gets with Melo and he has backed down on "sacrificing his game", then it is fair to be critical.
If Phil has done everything, including talking one on one and that does not work, then taking it to the public, which has worked with other stars he has had, is what he is doing.

Jeff is the coach. All the things you mentioned would be on the coach but instead many defer to Phil as the object for blame. Every expert in the world at best said this was a .500 team give or take.
Melo is a diva, but one who is doing a great job keeping it close to the vest and playing it cool.

For all we got, Im just focused on the game. Thats it. The media is blowing it all up as per norm and many hardcore ultimate type fans need to vent.

In the past, we had little assets to trade or draft picks to use. I see some nice things on the court with the bench. Early in the season it was the subs that were not playing well, now its the some starters.
be it as it may, I don't see anything that phil has done that would warrant calling for his head. All teams/GM's make mistakes. All teams let guys go they should not have or drafted wrong. Then they do good things.

Thats been hashed over 1000 times by us. YOu have your opinion and have expressed it very well. Your emotional about your team and it shows. Im a bit more pragmatic which is why I don't go to certain places.
We can't undo the past and Jimmy Dolan has a bad record. As long as we don't leverage the future for a mediocre team to just make the playoffs I am OK with a lot of things.

To me Holiday has been as good as Shump and Hardaway (He does get hot somtimes!)

For some reason Phil has enthralled you and you have defended his every move...Maybe it's his books or his 11 rings or you may have a much better understanding of what he is trying to do..I just go by what he has you done since you were where and I'm not impressed...He is bad...One good thing is that he hasn't moved any of our picks..Hopefully we can move on from both Melo and Phil and start anew with fresh thinking that more suitable to how the game is being played right now...But then there is Dolan..Trying to blame one guy to me is just wrong...It's very disingenuous, but that's just me...

JR and Shump help the Cavs win a title and we got squat in return...Hardaway seems to be hitting his stride..Who cares anyway, we are still stuck and suck with Phil...