Once teams began to scout us a bit better and once Rose started getting injured (in/out of the lineup) and KP hurt his achilles (he has never been the same since) the talent was not the same talent as 14-10. They went from having a 21 points a night KP to a 14 points a night inconsistent foul prone KP. That alone is a huge set back. They went from having Rose to no Rose and it messed up rotations.

The start was all about how great KP was playing and Rose's individual scoring added to the team. We weren't defending well back then either. Even at 14-10, I was looking at our scoring differential and we were being outscored by almost 3 points in our games. ESPN's predictor still had us doing bad eventually. Once KP got hurt and Rose got a few injuries, that was it.

I think the chemistry with this group never developed. The blame game can be shared by Melo, Rose, Horny and Phil. However most good teams, their vets and stars are unselfish when they get together. They have to be. They have to commit to defense. Can anyone with a straight face tell me that Melo and Rose came into this season with the same attitude KG and Pierce got when they teamed up? Or Bron and Wade? The way these two played was all about one one one play, no defensive effort. That's the easiest was to develop a poor culture all around.

Knixkik wrote:Everything phil does is calculated. I don't like the lack of communication at all, but he is clearly trying to accomplish something at the expense of Melo to move in another direction. Clearly he's trying to make melo uncomfortable with the idea that it's the only way he will consider waiving his NTC.

agreed. and if nothing else he might knock melo off his high horse. In the beginning of the year Melo pouted because he was only ranked 15th in the NBA. Now he's missed an all star game and is being considered trade bait for expiring contracts. If that doesn't sober melo up nothing will

Chandler wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Everything phil does is calculated. I don't like the lack of communication at all, but he is clearly trying to accomplish something at the expense of Melo to move in another direction. Clearly he's trying to make melo uncomfortable with the idea that it's the only way he will consider waiving his NTC.

agreed. and if nothing else he might knock melo off his high horse. In the beginning of the year Melo pouted because he was only ranked 15th in the NBA. Now he's missed an all star game and is being considered trade bait for expiring contracts. If that doesn't sober melo up nothing will

That's not Phil's job. He needs to come to grips with NBA reality in the modern day. Also, Phil isn't going to be around for a rebuild so we are just giving him money for nothing at this point. Jokes on the fans and the organization. There isn't any master plan coming from Phil. Giving him way to much credit here.

SwishAndDish13 wrote:

Chandler wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Everything phil does is calculated. I don't like the lack of communication at all, but he is clearly trying to accomplish something at the expense of Melo to move in another direction. Clearly he's trying to make melo uncomfortable with the idea that it's the only way he will consider waiving his NTC.

agreed. and if nothing else he might knock melo off his high horse. In the beginning of the year Melo pouted because he was only ranked 15th in the NBA. Now he's missed an all star game and is being considered trade bait for expiring contracts. If that doesn't sober melo up nothing will

That's not Phil's job. He needs to come to grips with NBA reality in the modern day. Also, Phil isn't going to be around for a rebuild so we are just giving him money for nothing at this point. Jokes on the fans and the organization. There isn't any master plan coming from Phil. Giving him way to much credit here.

why isn't it? go back and read Phil. he had more compliments for Melo than not. What we are seeing is that the rest of the NBA knows what many Knicks fans know. Melo is a very good one-way player, no defense, no hustle and as a #1 option bad for team chemistry. Sheesh it's not like we're hearing any teams tripping over themselves to try and attract melo to their team

So now it comes down to how do you build? How do you move forward? Hard to move forward with Melo commanding and using the plays as an alpha. The team needs freedom. You see how the 2nd unit plays with KP. The ball moves. It doesn't stick. The most succesful way to play right now in the league is to have an attacking guard that can get into the paint and pass the ball while also having a big that can roll, spot up or cut. Neither describe Melo.

Team needs freedom. Ball needs to move. Energy on defense. These things are impossible with Melo as your leader. All the years Melo has played in NY, his teams have rarely been good at moving the ball or playing as a team. This is pre-Phil. Look at the D'Antoni era. Woodson era. Even then, same issues. This is something that has to at some point be addressed. One year where Jason Kidd took over as leader and captain of the team on both ends doesn't count. Tyson was a big part of that defensive intensity as well. Melo just isn't someone you can build a winning team around. The Knicks should look to the longterm and find assets that can help them in the longrun.

fishmike wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

fwk00 wrote:It would be idiocy for Phil to say anything until after the February trade deadline passes or until a transaction of some kind is made. You don't give away your negotiating positions for a feel good moment with a player or two. That's crazy.
Just as you can't coach effort, you can't issue a memo or interview and get it either. Waste of time and no matter what he says he loses.

Professional players need to step up and give it their best every game no matter what happens. We've had teams with more heart in the last ten years - even Phil's first two Knicks teams lost but were worth rooting for.

Exactly. Plus I don't see the media demanding The Bulls president speaks, or the Bucks president addresses their situation right now.

exactly.. but this is the Knicks where posters believe the GM should address them directly.

If a news article derails your season it wasnt mean to be. End of story. Phil should be quiet right now working on moving Melo and Rose and thats it.

Do you have any evidence that phil will make a deal that benefits the franchise, has he proven to you that he is capable of making a smart trade that will makes us better now and in the future. Which one of this trade where you estatic about, and I'll leave out the throw in's

Was it the

Tysons expiring contract- caldron, larkin and a 2nd rnd pick

Shumpert and jr for pure trash

THJ for Grant

Rose, for calderon, lopez and grant

Mind you, calderon was entering the last yr of his contract, oh wait, that open up cap space to sign NOAH and sometimish LEE instead of ERIC Gordon. But I'm almost 1000% sure if Lee was in Houston playing for MDA, he would be killing it right now.

All of these moves as put us no where.

There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to trade rose or melo now, if they continue to lose, you better your lottery odds, if they somehow start winning, then you know you may have something, and then you make better move in the off season.

Chandler wrote:

SwishAndDish13 wrote:

Chandler wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Everything phil does is calculated. I don't like the lack of communication at all, but he is clearly trying to accomplish something at the expense of Melo to move in another direction. Clearly he's trying to make melo uncomfortable with the idea that it's the only way he will consider waiving his NTC.

agreed. and if nothing else he might knock melo off his high horse. In the beginning of the year Melo pouted because he was only ranked 15th in the NBA. Now he's missed an all star game and is being considered trade bait for expiring contracts. If that doesn't sober melo up nothing will

That's not Phil's job. He needs to come to grips with NBA reality in the modern day. Also, Phil isn't going to be around for a rebuild so we are just giving him money for nothing at this point. Jokes on the fans and the organization. There isn't any master plan coming from Phil. Giving him way to much credit here.

why isn't it? go back and read Phil. he had more compliments for Melo than not. What we are seeing is that the rest of the NBA knows what many Knicks fans know. Melo is a very good one-way player, no defense, no hustle and as a #1 option bad for team chemistry. Sheesh it's not like we're hearing any teams tripping over themselves to try and attract melo to their team

He's made very few public statements. Those he has made are all over the planet and not consistent. In regards to trading Melo, I think this is more an issue with the state of the league more so than the player. It's really hard to structure a deal given his contract and the ridiculous match rule. Plus only 3 teams tops are a arguably a piece away highlighting a huge competitive balance issue. Melo has his flaws but could be a good piece for a team 1 piece away. The problem is structuring the deal. Big names simply aren't being traded even those without NTCs.

knicks1248 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Everything phil does is calculated. I don't like the lack of communication at all, but he is clearly trying to accomplish something at the expense of Melo to move in another direction. Clearly he's trying to make melo uncomfortable with the idea that it's the only way he will consider waiving his NTC.

Your joking right..Your out of your mind if you think so. So he is caculating flipping the roster every few months. This is NYC, were not fools, or niaive.

+1 - At this point he's just playing out the string to cash those checks.

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

fwk00 wrote:It would be idiocy for Phil to say anything until after the February trade deadline passes or until a transaction of some kind is made. You don't give away your negotiating positions for a feel good moment with a player or two. That's crazy.
Just as you can't coach effort, you can't issue a memo or interview and get it either. Waste of time and no matter what he says he loses.

Professional players need to step up and give it their best every game no matter what happens. We've had teams with more heart in the last ten years - even Phil's first two Knicks teams lost but were worth rooting for.

Exactly. Plus I don't see the media demanding The Bulls president speaks, or the Bucks president addresses their situation right now.

exactly.. but this is the Knicks where posters believe the GM should address them directly.

If a news article derails your season it wasnt mean to be. End of story. Phil should be quiet right now working on moving Melo and Rose and thats it.

Do you have any evidence that phil will make a deal that benefits the franchise, has he proven to you that he is capable of making a smart trade that will makes us better now and in the future. Which one of this trade where you estatic about, and I'll leave out the throw in's

Was it the

Tysons expiring contract- caldron, larkin and a 2nd rnd pick

Shumpert and jr for pure trash

THJ for Grant

Rose, for calderon, lopez and grant

Mind you, calderon was entering the last yr of his contract, oh wait, that open up cap space to sign NOAH and sometimish LEE instead of ERIC Gordon. But I'm almost 1000% sure if Lee was in Houston playing for MDA, he would be killing it right now.

All of these moves as put us no where.

There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to trade rose or melo now, if they continue to lose, you better your lottery odds, if they somehow start winning, then you know you may have something, and then you make better move in the off season.

Phil's had 1 first rounder to work with and probably has set us up with an excellent frontcourt for the future. Plenty to be confident with in Phil, you are just in waaaa waaaa must blame someone mode everyday and every night here. You literally post the same thing every day in every thread. Its fine, I get it, but Tyson and Shump were due to get paid, so no team is going to offer a big package for guys who are a flight risk, and both guys got big deals that I would NOT want them here for. You miss JR?

nyknickzingis wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Phil has always been about building a team atmosphere and team ethos... that's been his biggest failure here.

I get that he wanted to trade Melo, but his little mind games with Melo in December seemed to completely derailed this season. On the hand you can say, "yeah Melo has to be tougher than that"... on the other hand you can say "what the hell was Phil thinking." The team was building chemistry and faith in each other... I think Phil was pouting because they had abandoned the Triangle at that player's meeting (which Phil was present for) to get their win streak going.

I don't think his statement had anything to do with the team playing badly. The statement was mostly praise for Melo, even comparing him to Jordan/Kobe. My god, that's a huge compliment from Phil. All Phil said is Melo needs to move the ball quicker, and it was in response to a specific question about how hard it is to get a system run with someone like Melo. There was no slight there. Now the Rosen article and all that has happened in the last few weeks, that's a different story. That's Phil playing mind games and trying to force Melo to either play at a superstar level or force out, I do think Phil has messed up with that. It wasn't the right thing to do.

But the reason we are no good is the way Melo and Rose (more Rose) approached this season. They were all raving about having never played with this much talent before. Yet, neither Melo or Rose were willing to change the way they played. The Miami Heat had a similar situation at first with Wade/James/Bosh. Not saying these guys are as good with KP as that trio. But teams struggle at times. In our case what happened is Rose and Melo never did what James and Wade did. James and Wade altered their games a little, allowing others to be involved and being able to share the offense. They took so much passion and effort into their defense. Rose and Melo neither show any leadership on offense nor do they give a damn about defense.

The only veteran who came this year with the right attitude who was serious about winning was Jennings. Jennings once scored 50 in a game, and averaged 17 points a season. He's in a contract year. He could have played like Lou Williams. Instead he played like a real point guard, mistakes and all (because truth is he's not even naturally a pass first point guard, he is trying to become one now). If Rose and Melo came into this season with the same attitude as BJ which was - max defensive effort, pass first, shoot second, leadership - this team would have been top 5 in the East right now, easy. That's not on Phil at all.

I also think Hornachek deserves considerable blame. He has been inflexible with lineups and roles with regards to starters. Melo always at the 3. KP always at the 4. Rose always at the 1. Try something different, maybe? How can that hurt? A good coach adapts when teams don't show good results, Spoelstra in Miami moved Bosh to 5, Bron to 4 and changed roles for Wade as well. He figured things out after a slow start. That's good coaching there as well.

Where Phil has failed in my book is that he has not step in. He allows Hornachek to mess up, allows Rose and Melo to play this stupidly. And his only reaction is cheap shots from Rosen and trade talk. As a coach he would have stepped in and gotten on Rose and Melo for how they were playing. There's no way he would have tolerated this type of mentality from any of his teams. So why does he let Horny just sit back and take this? Maybe Phil is actually happier with the way things are going and that the team is going to get a lottery pick. There's no other explanation in my book.

Totally. That's an excellent point. The contrast between Jennings and Rose/Melo is so apparent. Hope those two go and we extend Jennings.