fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BigRedDog wrote:

mreinman wrote:good article though not enough about the down side and inefficiency potential.

Still really good data and solid research.

Melo is a great great 3 point shooter when assisted and open. This is what MDA wanted from him. Melo also led the league in long 2's ... bleh! I hope JH can make them smarter.

Either way, it certainly sounds like Melo still has a big say in personnel decisions though wish to believe that he does not.

From the article it sounds like KP may benefit even more than melo if Rose can create for him off the PnR.

It is amazing how we both can read the same article and come away with 2 different opinions. Jackson had his exit interviews with every player. Melo said he thought the team needed a pt guard. Duh! a 5 yr old watching the Knicks knew that. Where does it say Melo had ANYTHING to do with who we got??? Where does it say Melo wanted so and so or Melo gave a list of players to go after??? When someone doesn't like a player they tend to read into the negativity of the situation more than is realistic or warranted.

Phil went to Melo and asked him if "we" were moving fast enough for him meaning no playoffs for 3 years. Some hear that and think Phil is catering to Melo. Others understand that is simply good management. Like it or not Melo is very important to what the Knicks are doing for the next couple years. He has taken the franchise rookie under his wing, became a more team focused player, organized off site team building workouts and remains the team's biggest producer.

For anyone who has every managed any kind of team you know that happy employees are better employees. Melo had earned the right to offer his input, anything else would be stupid on Phil's part. Now Phil still has to do whats best for the team and there is a difference between valuing a player's input and catering to them.

Also go look at the best years Melo has had in his career and what do you see? His most eff% shooting year he played next to Iverson and Melo had his best year shooting the ball playing next to a guy that took more shots than he did. The other time was with Billups when Melo played in the WCF.

This all just makes great basketball sense... but if you want to harp on stats and have buyer's lament fine. If I look at Lopez's all important WS/48 I see a player who is clearly trending down. This is clearly an indication that Lopez doesn't fit in today's modern NBA, is becoming less effective year after year and the Knicks were smart to trade now while he has value.

That's an interesting observation but if you go this route don't you have to look at the WS/48 of the players you received in the trade? If you do then how could you say you capitalized on his value by bringing in a player whose WS/48 have been -.036, .038,.009?

why should I do that when I can cherry pick to suit my own agendas? Maybe that WAS how we capitalized on his current value and we were a year or so away from waiving him or just dumping him for a late pick like Thad Young was. See how that works? You can focus on and cherry pick any one point.

Remember I did not like the Rose trade, but I didn't condemn it on the grounds that I would wait to see the other moves. Based on that I am fully behind this move. We needed another scorer and we desperately needed impact play from the backcourt. If you look at the FA guys that might have moved the needle the contracts are just stupid. As it turns out the Knick did very very well in FA in terms of value across the board, and that is all setup by the Rose trade.

Its not as simple as Rose vs. the perceived value of Jose/Grant/Lopez. It was the FA landscape, the Knick's needs and how Phil can build this team for Jeff.

We simply could NOT go into the season with Grant, Jose and LG as our guards for this coach. How well Rose plays remains to be seen, but if you watched him last year, bad stats aside you see he can do about 100 things than Jose can not. That being said you have guys here looking at WS stats and saying that Jose is a better player than Rose, which is pretty silly to anyone that has watched the game of basketball.

calderon was an awful player ... nobody is arguing. Just happens that Rose was even worse. You keep spinning this that people though calderon was good or even decent but he was not. He was terrible, just less terrible because he hurt his team less.

Not spinning it at all. Is Calderon a better player than Jose? Its a not a hard question. Did the Knick upgrade PG by replacing Calderon with Rose? (in your opinion)

Want to stop spinning? Answer those yes/no questions.

if they got the same rose that played last year (same output) then he is certainly worse. You can't get worse than rose played and you can't hurt a team worse than he did. AND CALDERON SUHUUUUCKS!

Now, do you want to compare last years jose to an improved Rose (which has not happened yet)? Go ahead and project.

So the answer is you cant answer the question, or wont. Yes or no, did the Knicks improve the PG spot this offseason? This should not be that hard.

Yes!

Bonn1997 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BigRedDog wrote:

mreinman wrote:good article though not enough about the down side and inefficiency potential.

Still really good data and solid research.

Melo is a great great 3 point shooter when assisted and open. This is what MDA wanted from him. Melo also led the league in long 2's ... bleh! I hope JH can make them smarter.

Either way, it certainly sounds like Melo still has a big say in personnel decisions though wish to believe that he does not.

From the article it sounds like KP may benefit even more than melo if Rose can create for him off the PnR.

It is amazing how we both can read the same article and come away with 2 different opinions. Jackson had his exit interviews with every player. Melo said he thought the team needed a pt guard. Duh! a 5 yr old watching the Knicks knew that. Where does it say Melo had ANYTHING to do with who we got??? Where does it say Melo wanted so and so or Melo gave a list of players to go after??? When someone doesn't like a player they tend to read into the negativity of the situation more than is realistic or warranted.

Phil went to Melo and asked him if "we" were moving fast enough for him meaning no playoffs for 3 years. Some hear that and think Phil is catering to Melo. Others understand that is simply good management. Like it or not Melo is very important to what the Knicks are doing for the next couple years. He has taken the franchise rookie under his wing, became a more team focused player, organized off site team building workouts and remains the team's biggest producer.

For anyone who has every managed any kind of team you know that happy employees are better employees. Melo had earned the right to offer his input, anything else would be stupid on Phil's part. Now Phil still has to do whats best for the team and there is a difference between valuing a player's input and catering to them.

Also go look at the best years Melo has had in his career and what do you see? His most eff% shooting year he played next to Iverson and Melo had his best year shooting the ball playing next to a guy that took more shots than he did. The other time was with Billups when Melo played in the WCF.

This all just makes great basketball sense... but if you want to harp on stats and have buyer's lament fine. If I look at Lopez's all important WS/48 I see a player who is clearly trending down. This is clearly an indication that Lopez doesn't fit in today's modern NBA, is becoming less effective year after year and the Knicks were smart to trade now while he has value.

That's an interesting observation but if you go this route don't you have to look at the WS/48 of the players you received in the trade? If you do then how could you say you capitalized on his value by bringing in a player whose WS/48 have been -.036, .038,.009?

why should I do that when I can cherry pick to suit my own agendas? Maybe that WAS how we capitalized on his current value and we were a year or so away from waiving him or just dumping him for a late pick like Thad Young was. See how that works? You can focus on and cherry pick any one point.

Remember I did not like the Rose trade, but I didn't condemn it on the grounds that I would wait to see the other moves. Based on that I am fully behind this move. We needed another scorer and we desperately needed impact play from the backcourt. If you look at the FA guys that might have moved the needle the contracts are just stupid. As it turns out the Knick did very very well in FA in terms of value across the board, and that is all setup by the Rose trade.

Its not as simple as Rose vs. the perceived value of Jose/Grant/Lopez. It was the FA landscape, the Knick's needs and how Phil can build this team for Jeff.

We simply could NOT go into the season with Grant, Jose and LG as our guards for this coach. How well Rose plays remains to be seen, but if you watched him last year, bad stats aside you see he can do about 100 things than Jose can not. That being said you have guys here looking at WS stats and saying that Jose is a better player than Rose, which is pretty silly to anyone that has watched the game of basketball.

calderon was an awful player ... nobody is arguing. Just happens that Rose was even worse. You keep spinning this that people though calderon was good or even decent but he was not. He was terrible, just less terrible because he hurt his team less.

Not spinning it at all. Is Calderon a better player than Jose? Its a not a hard question. Did the Knick upgrade PG by replacing Calderon with Rose? (in your opinion)

Want to stop spinning? Answer those yes/no questions.

if they got the same rose that played last year (same output) then he is certainly worse. You can't get worse than rose played and you can't hurt a team worse than he did. AND CALDERON SUHUUUUCKS!

Now, do you want to compare last years jose to an improved Rose (which has not happened yet)? Go ahead and project.

So the answer is you cant answer the question, or wont. Yes or no, did the Knicks improve the PG spot this offseason? This should not be that hard.

I don't think there is any chance you get a yes or no answer but I will weigh in and maybe a visual example will help get you a response.

Yes!

You can't know right now if it will end up being an upgrade since you can't know how healthy Rose will be, what his mindset will bet, etc. At best, it's fair to ask mreinman *how likely* he thinks it is that it will end up being an upgrade, a downgrade, or a wash. Obviously, the future deals with probabilities, not known outcomes.

I think that this concept is too complicated for crush and fish ... yes or no or nothing. Variables, statistics and probabilities are for geeks and freaks, right? YES or NO please

I am not sure what the percentages are for him becoming a player that is different from the last three years. I think chances are that he will be close to the same and not have a significant improvement and that is IF he stays healthy.

Losing Rolo and Grant for him was a layden move but maybe that is just me ... perhaps I am missing something and he really is a good player and my eyeballs are just missing his intangibles.

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BigRedDog wrote:

mreinman wrote:good article though not enough about the down side and inefficiency potential.

Still really good data and solid research.

Melo is a great great 3 point shooter when assisted and open. This is what MDA wanted from him. Melo also led the league in long 2's ... bleh! I hope JH can make them smarter.

Either way, it certainly sounds like Melo still has a big say in personnel decisions though wish to believe that he does not.

From the article it sounds like KP may benefit even more than melo if Rose can create for him off the PnR.

It is amazing how we both can read the same article and come away with 2 different opinions. Jackson had his exit interviews with every player. Melo said he thought the team needed a pt guard. Duh! a 5 yr old watching the Knicks knew that. Where does it say Melo had ANYTHING to do with who we got??? Where does it say Melo wanted so and so or Melo gave a list of players to go after??? When someone doesn't like a player they tend to read into the negativity of the situation more than is realistic or warranted.

Phil went to Melo and asked him if "we" were moving fast enough for him meaning no playoffs for 3 years. Some hear that and think Phil is catering to Melo. Others understand that is simply good management. Like it or not Melo is very important to what the Knicks are doing for the next couple years. He has taken the franchise rookie under his wing, became a more team focused player, organized off site team building workouts and remains the team's biggest producer.

For anyone who has every managed any kind of team you know that happy employees are better employees. Melo had earned the right to offer his input, anything else would be stupid on Phil's part. Now Phil still has to do whats best for the team and there is a difference between valuing a player's input and catering to them.

Also go look at the best years Melo has had in his career and what do you see? His most eff% shooting year he played next to Iverson and Melo had his best year shooting the ball playing next to a guy that took more shots than he did. The other time was with Billups when Melo played in the WCF.

This all just makes great basketball sense... but if you want to harp on stats and have buyer's lament fine. If I look at Lopez's all important WS/48 I see a player who is clearly trending down. This is clearly an indication that Lopez doesn't fit in today's modern NBA, is becoming less effective year after year and the Knicks were smart to trade now while he has value.

That's an interesting observation but if you go this route don't you have to look at the WS/48 of the players you received in the trade? If you do then how could you say you capitalized on his value by bringing in a player whose WS/48 have been -.036, .038,.009?

why should I do that when I can cherry pick to suit my own agendas? Maybe that WAS how we capitalized on his current value and we were a year or so away from waiving him or just dumping him for a late pick like Thad Young was. See how that works? You can focus on and cherry pick any one point.

Remember I did not like the Rose trade, but I didn't condemn it on the grounds that I would wait to see the other moves. Based on that I am fully behind this move. We needed another scorer and we desperately needed impact play from the backcourt. If you look at the FA guys that might have moved the needle the contracts are just stupid. As it turns out the Knick did very very well in FA in terms of value across the board, and that is all setup by the Rose trade.

Its not as simple as Rose vs. the perceived value of Jose/Grant/Lopez. It was the FA landscape, the Knick's needs and how Phil can build this team for Jeff.

We simply could NOT go into the season with Grant, Jose and LG as our guards for this coach. How well Rose plays remains to be seen, but if you watched him last year, bad stats aside you see he can do about 100 things than Jose can not. That being said you have guys here looking at WS stats and saying that Jose is a better player than Rose, which is pretty silly to anyone that has watched the game of basketball.

calderon was an awful player ... nobody is arguing. Just happens that Rose was even worse. You keep spinning this that people though calderon was good or even decent but he was not. He was terrible, just less terrible because he hurt his team less.

Not spinning it at all. Is Calderon a better player than Jose? Its a not a hard question. Did the Knick upgrade PG by replacing Calderon with Rose? (in your opinion)

Want to stop spinning? Answer those yes/no questions.

if they got the same rose that played last year (same output) then he is certainly worse. You can't get worse than rose played and you can't hurt a team worse than he did. AND CALDERON SUHUUUUCKS!

Now, do you want to compare last years jose to an improved Rose (which has not happened yet)? Go ahead and project.

So the answer is you cant answer the question, or wont. Yes or no, did the Knicks improve the PG spot this offseason? This should not be that hard.

I don't think there is any chance you get a yes or no answer but I will weigh in and maybe a visual example will help get you a response.

Yes!

You can't know right now if it will end up being an upgrade since you can't know how healthy Rose will be, what his mindset will bet, etc. At best, it's fair to ask mreinman *how likely* he thinks it is that it will end up being an upgrade, a downgrade, or a wash. Obviously, the future deals with probabilities, not known outcomes.

I think that this concept is too complicated for crush and fish ... yes or no or nothing. Variables, statistics and probabilities are for geeks and freaks, right? YES or NO please

I am not sure what the percentages are for him becoming a player that is different from the last three years. I think chances are that he will be close to the same and not have a significant improvement and that is IF he stays healthy.

Losing Rolo and Grant for him was a layden move but maybe that is just me ... perhaps I am missing something and he really is a good player and my eyeballs are just missing his intangibles.

2014-2015 POSTSEASON GAME LOG
DATE	 OPP   SCORE     MIN	FGM-FGA	 FG%	3PM-3PA	 3P%	FTM-FTA	 FT%	REB	AST	BLK	STL	PF	TO	PTS
Thu 5/14 vsCLE L 73-94	 36	7-16	 .438	0-3	 .000	0-0	 .000	2	6	0	0	1	2	14
Tue 5/12 @ CLE L 101-106 43	7-24	 .292	0-4	 .000	2-3	 .667	9	7	1	3	1	1	16
Sun 5/10 vsCLE L 84-86	 41	11-23	 .478	2-5	 .400	7-7	1.000	2	4	0	0	0	2	31
Fri 5/8	 vsCLE W 99-96	 39	10-26	 .385	1-3	 .333	9-10	 .900	7	7	1	1	2	3	30
Wed 5/6	 @ CLE L 91-106	 37	6-20	 .300	2-5	 .400	0-0	 .000	7	10	1	0	4	2	14
Mon 5/4	 @ CLE W 99-92   39	11-26	 .423	3-6	 .500	0-0	 .000	5	5	0	1	3	2	25
Conference Semifinals	 39.2	8.7-22.5 .385	1.3-4.3	 .308	3.0-3.3	 .900	5.3	6.5	0.5	0.8	1.8	2.0	21.7
DATE	 OPP   SCORE     MIN	FGM-FGA	 FG%	3PM-3PA	 3P%	FTM-FTA	 FT%	REB	AST	BLK	STL	PF	TO	PTS
Thu 4/30 @ MIL W 120-66	 25	6-14	 .429	3-7	 .429	0-0	 .000	5	7	0	1	1	2	15
Mon 4/27 vsMIL L 88-94	 42	5-20	 .250	0-7	 .000	3-4	 .750	4	2	0	1	1	6	13
Sat 4/25 @ MIL L 90-92	 39	5-13	 .385	2-4	 .500	2-2	1.000	5	6	1	1	1	8	14
Thu 4/23 @ MIL W 113-106 48	12-23	 .522	5-9	 .556	5-6	 .833	5	8	0	3	2	3	34
Mon 4/20 vsMIL W 91-82	 38	4-14	 .286	2-6	 .333	5-5	1.000	7	9	1	1	3	3	15
Sat 4/18 vsMIL W 103-91	 27	9-16	 .563	3-7	 .429	2-2	1.000	0	7	1	2	3	4	23
Conference Quarterfinals 36.5	6.8-16.7 .410	2.5-6.7	 .375	2.8-3.2	 .895	4.3	6.5	0.5	1.5	1.8	4.3	19.0
POSTSEASON STATS	 MIN	FGM-FGA	 FG%	3PM-3PA	 3P%	FTM-FTA	 FT%	REB	AST	BLK	STL	PF	TO	PTS
Averages	         37.8	7.8-19.6 .396	1.9-5.5	 .348	2.9-3.3	 .897	4.8	6.5	0.5	1.2	1.8	3.2	20.3
Totals	                 454	93-235	 .396	23-66	 .348	35-39	 .897	58	78	6	14	22	38	244

IMO Rose was probably not at his absolute best physically in that playoff run. Rose doesn't have to meet your particular criteria in order to help this team next season!!! I suspect that if we had Rose last time we made the playoffs things might've been much better. We may get to see the best version of Rose since his MVP season. Each of those seasons was interrupted or limited by some kind of surgery. The hope is that he has a great summer and comes to camp in the best condition since that MVP season.

Not to mention that Rose will be playing with Melo and KP. They could help him tremendously and he can help them.

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BigRedDog wrote:

mreinman wrote:good article though not enough about the down side and inefficiency potential.

Still really good data and solid research.

Melo is a great great 3 point shooter when assisted and open. This is what MDA wanted from him. Melo also led the league in long 2's ... bleh! I hope JH can make them smarter.

Either way, it certainly sounds like Melo still has a big say in personnel decisions though wish to believe that he does not.

From the article it sounds like KP may benefit even more than melo if Rose can create for him off the PnR.

It is amazing how we both can read the same article and come away with 2 different opinions. Jackson had his exit interviews with every player. Melo said he thought the team needed a pt guard. Duh! a 5 yr old watching the Knicks knew that. Where does it say Melo had ANYTHING to do with who we got??? Where does it say Melo wanted so and so or Melo gave a list of players to go after??? When someone doesn't like a player they tend to read into the negativity of the situation more than is realistic or warranted.

Phil went to Melo and asked him if "we" were moving fast enough for him meaning no playoffs for 3 years. Some hear that and think Phil is catering to Melo. Others understand that is simply good management. Like it or not Melo is very important to what the Knicks are doing for the next couple years. He has taken the franchise rookie under his wing, became a more team focused player, organized off site team building workouts and remains the team's biggest producer.

For anyone who has every managed any kind of team you know that happy employees are better employees. Melo had earned the right to offer his input, anything else would be stupid on Phil's part. Now Phil still has to do whats best for the team and there is a difference between valuing a player's input and catering to them.

Also go look at the best years Melo has had in his career and what do you see? His most eff% shooting year he played next to Iverson and Melo had his best year shooting the ball playing next to a guy that took more shots than he did. The other time was with Billups when Melo played in the WCF.

This all just makes great basketball sense... but if you want to harp on stats and have buyer's lament fine. If I look at Lopez's all important WS/48 I see a player who is clearly trending down. This is clearly an indication that Lopez doesn't fit in today's modern NBA, is becoming less effective year after year and the Knicks were smart to trade now while he has value.

That's an interesting observation but if you go this route don't you have to look at the WS/48 of the players you received in the trade? If you do then how could you say you capitalized on his value by bringing in a player whose WS/48 have been -.036, .038,.009?

why should I do that when I can cherry pick to suit my own agendas? Maybe that WAS how we capitalized on his current value and we were a year or so away from waiving him or just dumping him for a late pick like Thad Young was. See how that works? You can focus on and cherry pick any one point.

Remember I did not like the Rose trade, but I didn't condemn it on the grounds that I would wait to see the other moves. Based on that I am fully behind this move. We needed another scorer and we desperately needed impact play from the backcourt. If you look at the FA guys that might have moved the needle the contracts are just stupid. As it turns out the Knick did very very well in FA in terms of value across the board, and that is all setup by the Rose trade.

Its not as simple as Rose vs. the perceived value of Jose/Grant/Lopez. It was the FA landscape, the Knick's needs and how Phil can build this team for Jeff.

We simply could NOT go into the season with Grant, Jose and LG as our guards for this coach. How well Rose plays remains to be seen, but if you watched him last year, bad stats aside you see he can do about 100 things than Jose can not. That being said you have guys here looking at WS stats and saying that Jose is a better player than Rose, which is pretty silly to anyone that has watched the game of basketball.

calderon was an awful player ... nobody is arguing. Just happens that Rose was even worse. You keep spinning this that people though calderon was good or even decent but he was not. He was terrible, just less terrible because he hurt his team less.

Not spinning it at all. Is Calderon a better player than Jose? Its a not a hard question. Did the Knick upgrade PG by replacing Calderon with Rose? (in your opinion)

Want to stop spinning? Answer those yes/no questions.

if they got the same rose that played last year (same output) then he is certainly worse. You can't get worse than rose played and you can't hurt a team worse than he did. AND CALDERON SUHUUUUCKS!

Now, do you want to compare last years jose to an improved Rose (which has not happened yet)? Go ahead and project.

So the answer is you cant answer the question, or wont. Yes or no, did the Knicks improve the PG spot this offseason? This should not be that hard.

I don't think there is any chance you get a yes or no answer but I will weigh in and maybe a visual example will help get you a response.

Yes!

You can't know right now if it will end up being an upgrade since you can't know how healthy Rose will be, what his mindset will bet, etc. At best, it's fair to ask mreinman *how likely* he thinks it is that it will end up being an upgrade, a downgrade, or a wash. Obviously, the future deals with probabilities, not known outcomes.

I think that this concept is too complicated for crush and fish ... yes or no or nothing. Variables, statistics and probabilities are for geeks and freaks, right? YES or NO please

I am not sure what the percentages are for him becoming a player that is different from the last three years. I think chances are that he will be close to the same and not have a significant improvement and that is IF he stays healthy.

Losing Rolo and Grant for him was a layden move but maybe that is just me ... perhaps I am missing something and he really is a good player and my eyeballs are just missing his intangibles.

Did we have a guard that could come back off an inseason surgery and with very little preparation do this in the playoffs???

2014-2015 POSTSEASON GAME LOG
DATE	 OPP   SCORE     MIN	FGM-FGA	 FG%	3PM-3PA	 3P%	FTM-FTA	 FT%	REB	AST	BLK	STL	PF	TO	PTS
Thu 5/14 vsCLE L 73-94	 36	7-16	 .438	0-3	 .000	0-0	 .000	2	6	0	0	1	2	14
Tue 5/12 @ CLE L 101-106 43	7-24	 .292	0-4	 .000	2-3	 .667	9	7	1	3	1	1	16
Sun 5/10 vsCLE L 84-86	 41	11-23	 .478	2-5	 .400	7-7	1.000	2	4	0	0	0	2	31
Fri 5/8	 vsCLE W 99-96	 39	10-26	 .385	1-3	 .333	9-10	 .900	7	7	1	1	2	3	30
Wed 5/6	 @ CLE L 91-106	 37	6-20	 .300	2-5	 .400	0-0	 .000	7	10	1	0	4	2	14
Mon 5/4	 @ CLE W 99-92   39	11-26	 .423	3-6	 .500	0-0	 .000	5	5	0	1	3	2	25
Conference Semifinals	 39.2	8.7-22.5 .385	1.3-4.3	 .308	3.0-3.3	 .900	5.3	6.5	0.5	0.8	1.8	2.0	21.7
DATE	 OPP   SCORE     MIN	FGM-FGA	 FG%	3PM-3PA	 3P%	FTM-FTA	 FT%	REB	AST	BLK	STL	PF	TO	PTS
Thu 4/30 @ MIL W 120-66	 25	6-14	 .429	3-7	 .429	0-0	 .000	5	7	0	1	1	2	15
Mon 4/27 vsMIL L 88-94	 42	5-20	 .250	0-7	 .000	3-4	 .750	4	2	0	1	1	6	13
Sat 4/25 @ MIL L 90-92	 39	5-13	 .385	2-4	 .500	2-2	1.000	5	6	1	1	1	8	14
Thu 4/23 @ MIL W 113-106 48	12-23	 .522	5-9	 .556	5-6	 .833	5	8	0	3	2	3	34
Mon 4/20 vsMIL W 91-82	 38	4-14	 .286	2-6	 .333	5-5	1.000	7	9	1	1	3	3	15
Sat 4/18 vsMIL W 103-91	 27	9-16	 .563	3-7	 .429	2-2	1.000	0	7	1	2	3	4	23
Conference Quarterfinals 36.5	6.8-16.7 .410	2.5-6.7	 .375	2.8-3.2	 .895	4.3	6.5	0.5	1.5	1.8	4.3	19.0
POSTSEASON STATS	 MIN	FGM-FGA	 FG%	3PM-3PA	 3P%	FTM-FTA	 FT%	REB	AST	BLK	STL	PF	TO	PTS
Averages	         37.8	7.8-19.6 .396	1.9-5.5	 .348	2.9-3.3	 .897	4.8	6.5	0.5	1.2	1.8	3.2	20.3
Totals	                 454	93-235	 .396	23-66	 .348	35-39	 .897	58	78	6	14	22	38	244

IMO Rose was probably not at his absolute best physically in that playoff run. Rose doesn't have to meet your particular criteria in order to help this team next season!!! I suspect that if we had Rose last time we made the playoffs things might've been much better. We may get to see the best version of Rose since his MVP season. Each of those seasons was interrupted or limited by some kind of surgery. The hope is that he has a great summer and comes to camp in the best condition since that MVP season.

Not to mention that Rose will be playing with Melo and KP. They could help him tremendously and he can help them.

20 points on 20 shots a game isn't that impressive. If he takes up 20 of our shots each game and we only get 20 points out of that, it will really hurt the team.

The main point is that it's not unreasonable to think that we could be getting the best version of Rose in a long time. He's not coming off of any surgery that is hampering his ability to work hard on his conditioning. He's further removed from the last surgery on his legs and that could really help him to come into the season in the best condition he's been in years. Not to mention the ability to work full tilt on his skills for an entire summer.

Also Rose will have scoring help and will not have to try and carry too much of the load. This will be a different circumstance. He won't have to play 38 MPG as he did in that playoff run, on this team. That is unbelievable that a coach would play Rose that many minuted after just coming back from Knee surgery.

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BigRedDog wrote:

mreinman wrote:good article though not enough about the down side and inefficiency potential.

Still really good data and solid research.

Melo is a great great 3 point shooter when assisted and open. This is what MDA wanted from him. Melo also led the league in long 2's ... bleh! I hope JH can make them smarter.

Either way, it certainly sounds like Melo still has a big say in personnel decisions though wish to believe that he does not.

From the article it sounds like KP may benefit even more than melo if Rose can create for him off the PnR.

It is amazing how we both can read the same article and come away with 2 different opinions. Jackson had his exit interviews with every player. Melo said he thought the team needed a pt guard. Duh! a 5 yr old watching the Knicks knew that. Where does it say Melo had ANYTHING to do with who we got??? Where does it say Melo wanted so and so or Melo gave a list of players to go after??? When someone doesn't like a player they tend to read into the negativity of the situation more than is realistic or warranted.

Phil went to Melo and asked him if "we" were moving fast enough for him meaning no playoffs for 3 years. Some hear that and think Phil is catering to Melo. Others understand that is simply good management. Like it or not Melo is very important to what the Knicks are doing for the next couple years. He has taken the franchise rookie under his wing, became a more team focused player, organized off site team building workouts and remains the team's biggest producer.

For anyone who has every managed any kind of team you know that happy employees are better employees. Melo had earned the right to offer his input, anything else would be stupid on Phil's part. Now Phil still has to do whats best for the team and there is a difference between valuing a player's input and catering to them.

Also go look at the best years Melo has had in his career and what do you see? His most eff% shooting year he played next to Iverson and Melo had his best year shooting the ball playing next to a guy that took more shots than he did. The other time was with Billups when Melo played in the WCF.

This all just makes great basketball sense... but if you want to harp on stats and have buyer's lament fine. If I look at Lopez's all important WS/48 I see a player who is clearly trending down. This is clearly an indication that Lopez doesn't fit in today's modern NBA, is becoming less effective year after year and the Knicks were smart to trade now while he has value.

That's an interesting observation but if you go this route don't you have to look at the WS/48 of the players you received in the trade? If you do then how could you say you capitalized on his value by bringing in a player whose WS/48 have been -.036, .038,.009?

why should I do that when I can cherry pick to suit my own agendas? Maybe that WAS how we capitalized on his current value and we were a year or so away from waiving him or just dumping him for a late pick like Thad Young was. See how that works? You can focus on and cherry pick any one point.

Remember I did not like the Rose trade, but I didn't condemn it on the grounds that I would wait to see the other moves. Based on that I am fully behind this move. We needed another scorer and we desperately needed impact play from the backcourt. If you look at the FA guys that might have moved the needle the contracts are just stupid. As it turns out the Knick did very very well in FA in terms of value across the board, and that is all setup by the Rose trade.

Its not as simple as Rose vs. the perceived value of Jose/Grant/Lopez. It was the FA landscape, the Knick's needs and how Phil can build this team for Jeff.

We simply could NOT go into the season with Grant, Jose and LG as our guards for this coach. How well Rose plays remains to be seen, but if you watched him last year, bad stats aside you see he can do about 100 things than Jose can not. That being said you have guys here looking at WS stats and saying that Jose is a better player than Rose, which is pretty silly to anyone that has watched the game of basketball.

calderon was an awful player ... nobody is arguing. Just happens that Rose was even worse. You keep spinning this that people though calderon was good or even decent but he was not. He was terrible, just less terrible because he hurt his team less.

Not spinning it at all. Is Calderon a better player than Jose? Its a not a hard question. Did the Knick upgrade PG by replacing Calderon with Rose? (in your opinion)

Want to stop spinning? Answer those yes/no questions.

if they got the same rose that played last year (same output) then he is certainly worse. You can't get worse than rose played and you can't hurt a team worse than he did. AND CALDERON SUHUUUUCKS!

Now, do you want to compare last years jose to an improved Rose (which has not happened yet)? Go ahead and project.

So the answer is you cant answer the question, or wont. Yes or no, did the Knicks improve the PG spot this offseason? This should not be that hard.

I don't think there is any chance you get a yes or no answer but I will weigh in and maybe a visual example will help get you a response.

Yes!

You can't know right now if it will end up being an upgrade since you can't know how healthy Rose will be, what his mindset will bet, etc. At best, it's fair to ask mreinman *how likely* he thinks it is that it will end up being an upgrade, a downgrade, or a wash. Obviously, the future deals with probabilities, not known outcomes.

I think that this concept is too complicated for crush and fish ... yes or no or nothing. Variables, statistics and probabilities are for geeks and freaks, right? YES or NO please

I am not sure what the percentages are for him becoming a player that is different from the last three years. I think chances are that he will be close to the same and not have a significant improvement and that is IF he stays healthy.

Losing Rolo and Grant for him was a layden move but maybe that is just me ... perhaps I am missing something and he really is a good player and my eyeballs are just missing his intangibles.

Did we have a guard that could come back off an inseason surgery and with very little preparation do this in the playoffs???

2014-2015 POSTSEASON GAME LOG
DATE	 OPP   SCORE     MIN	FGM-FGA	 FG%	3PM-3PA	 3P%	FTM-FTA	 FT%	REB	AST	BLK	STL	PF	TO	PTS
Thu 5/14 vsCLE L 73-94	 36	7-16	 .438	0-3	 .000	0-0	 .000	2	6	0	0	1	2	14
Tue 5/12 @ CLE L 101-106 43	7-24	 .292	0-4	 .000	2-3	 .667	9	7	1	3	1	1	16
Sun 5/10 vsCLE L 84-86	 41	11-23	 .478	2-5	 .400	7-7	1.000	2	4	0	0	0	2	31
Fri 5/8	 vsCLE W 99-96	 39	10-26	 .385	1-3	 .333	9-10	 .900	7	7	1	1	2	3	30
Wed 5/6	 @ CLE L 91-106	 37	6-20	 .300	2-5	 .400	0-0	 .000	7	10	1	0	4	2	14
Mon 5/4	 @ CLE W 99-92   39	11-26	 .423	3-6	 .500	0-0	 .000	5	5	0	1	3	2	25
Conference Semifinals	 39.2	8.7-22.5 .385	1.3-4.3	 .308	3.0-3.3	 .900	5.3	6.5	0.5	0.8	1.8	2.0	21.7
DATE	 OPP   SCORE     MIN	FGM-FGA	 FG%	3PM-3PA	 3P%	FTM-FTA	 FT%	REB	AST	BLK	STL	PF	TO	PTS
Thu 4/30 @ MIL W 120-66	 25	6-14	 .429	3-7	 .429	0-0	 .000	5	7	0	1	1	2	15
Mon 4/27 vsMIL L 88-94	 42	5-20	 .250	0-7	 .000	3-4	 .750	4	2	0	1	1	6	13
Sat 4/25 @ MIL L 90-92	 39	5-13	 .385	2-4	 .500	2-2	1.000	5	6	1	1	1	8	14
Thu 4/23 @ MIL W 113-106 48	12-23	 .522	5-9	 .556	5-6	 .833	5	8	0	3	2	3	34
Mon 4/20 vsMIL W 91-82	 38	4-14	 .286	2-6	 .333	5-5	1.000	7	9	1	1	3	3	15
Sat 4/18 vsMIL W 103-91	 27	9-16	 .563	3-7	 .429	2-2	1.000	0	7	1	2	3	4	23
Conference Quarterfinals 36.5	6.8-16.7 .410	2.5-6.7	 .375	2.8-3.2	 .895	4.3	6.5	0.5	1.5	1.8	4.3	19.0
POSTSEASON STATS	 MIN	FGM-FGA	 FG%	3PM-3PA	 3P%	FTM-FTA	 FT%	REB	AST	BLK	STL	PF	TO	PTS
Averages	         37.8	7.8-19.6 .396	1.9-5.5	 .348	2.9-3.3	 .897	4.8	6.5	0.5	1.2	1.8	3.2	20.3
Totals	                 454	93-235	 .396	23-66	 .348	35-39	 .897	58	78	6	14	22	38	244

IMO Rose was probably not at his absolute best physically in that playoff run. Rose doesn't have to meet your particular criteria in order to help this team next season!!! I suspect that if we had Rose last time we made the playoffs things might've been much better. We may get to see the best version of Rose since his MVP season. Each of those seasons was interrupted or limited by some kind of surgery. The hope is that he has a great summer and comes to camp in the best condition since that MVP season.

Not to mention that Rose will be playing with Melo and KP. They could help him tremendously and he can help them.

20 points on 20 shots a game isn't that impressive. If he takes up 20 of our shots each game and we only get 20 points out of that, it will really hurt the team.

Once again, this was after an inseason Knee surgery and him making a comeback for the playoffs. What is it that is so hard for some of you to grasp about how that could negatively impact a player's performance??? You have to at least imagine that he wasn't in the best physical condition or in midseason form in terms of his shooting after being out for a lengthy period of time.

The main point is that it's not unreasonable to think that we could be getting the best version of Rose in a long time. He's not coming off of any surgery that is hampering his ability to work hard on his conditioning. He's further removed from the last surgery on his legs and that could really help him to come into the season in the best condition he's been in years. Not to mention the ability to work full tilt on his skills for an entire summer.

Also Rose will have scoring help and will not have to try and carry too much of the load. This will be a different circumstance. He won't have to play 38 MPG as he did in that playoff run, on this team. That is unbelievable that a coach would play Rose that many minuted after just coming back from Knee surgery.

OK, I thought you were trying to say he played well. If you're saying he played bad and it was because of injury, that's another story.

One of the things that Hornacek spoke about is getting this team to look to score earlier in the shot clock. Just looking at the stats from the playoff series I listed above, you can see how much better Rose was when he went to score earlier in the shot clock verses later. the Bulls were not as fast as they should've been IMO.

	Field Goals	                2 Point Field Goals	                                        3 Point Field Goals
Shot Clock Range	GP  G	Freq	FGM	FGA	FG%	eFG%	Freq	2FGM	2FGA	2FG%	Freq	3PM	3PA	3P%
24-22	                12  5	2.1%	0.1	0.4	20.0	20.0	2.1%	0.1	0.4	20.0	0.0%	0.0	0.0	-
22-18 Very Early	12  11	8.5%	0.9	1.7	55.0	62.5	7.3%	0.7	1.4	47.1	1.3%	0.3	0.3	100
18-15 Early	        12  11	18.4%	1.7	3.6	46.5	51.2	13.7%	1.3	2.7	50.0	4.7%	0.3	0.9	36.4
15-7 Average	        12  12	44.0%	3.1	8.6	35.9	39.3	31.2%	2.5	6.1	41.1	12.8%	0.6	2.5	23.3
7-4 Late	        12  10	12.0%	1.0	2.3	42.9	48.2	8.5%	0.8	1.7	45.0	3.4%	0.3	0.7	37.5
4-0 Very Late	        12  10	11.5%	0.7	2.3	29.6	38.9	6.8%	0.3	1.3	18.8	4.7%	0.4	0.9	45.5

The goal has to be making the percentage of Very Early to Early in the clock shot attempts increase. It's starts with pushing the ball constantly. Then the team has to probe the D and look for more quick hitting plays. Those kinds of shots are much easier to get when you play faster. It's going to be on Hornacek to help this team learn how to play that way. Some guys already get it.

It's also the big reason you want to add more fast and athletic players as we have done this summer. Rose shouldn't be the only one up court. We need bigs that can run with him and set screens to gain the advantage as quickly as possible.

In the 2014-15 Playoffs, the Bulls were the 10 (should've said tied for 9th) fastest in Offensive Speed. The Knicks will want to be a team that can be one of the Fastest in the Regular Season and Playoffs next year.

                                               Avg
                                                Speed
Team	               GP	W	L	Offense
Golden State Warriors  21	16	5	4.72
Boston Celtics         4	0	4	4.71
Portland Trail Blazers 5	1	4	4.71
San Antonio Spurs      7	3	4	4.69
Milwaukee Bucks        6	2	4	4.63
Atlanta Hawks          16	8	8	4.54
Dallas Mavericks       5	1	4	4.48
Toronto Raptors        4	0	4	4.47
Houston Rockets        17	9	8	4.45
Chicago Bulls          12	6	6	4.45
New Orleans Pelicans   4	0	4	4.39
Los Angeles Clippers   14	7	7	4.39
Washington Wizards     10	6	4	4.26
Brooklyn Nets          6	2	4	4.23
Memphis Grizzlies      11	6	5	4.20
Cleveland Cavaliers    20	14	6	4.12

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BigRedDog wrote:

mreinman wrote:good article though not enough about the down side and inefficiency potential.

Still really good data and solid research.

Melo is a great great 3 point shooter when assisted and open. This is what MDA wanted from him. Melo also led the league in long 2's ... bleh! I hope JH can make them smarter.

Either way, it certainly sounds like Melo still has a big say in personnel decisions though wish to believe that he does not.

From the article it sounds like KP may benefit even more than melo if Rose can create for him off the PnR.

It is amazing how we both can read the same article and come away with 2 different opinions. Jackson had his exit interviews with every player. Melo said he thought the team needed a pt guard. Duh! a 5 yr old watching the Knicks knew that. Where does it say Melo had ANYTHING to do with who we got??? Where does it say Melo wanted so and so or Melo gave a list of players to go after??? When someone doesn't like a player they tend to read into the negativity of the situation more than is realistic or warranted.

Phil went to Melo and asked him if "we" were moving fast enough for him meaning no playoffs for 3 years. Some hear that and think Phil is catering to Melo. Others understand that is simply good management. Like it or not Melo is very important to what the Knicks are doing for the next couple years. He has taken the franchise rookie under his wing, became a more team focused player, organized off site team building workouts and remains the team's biggest producer.

For anyone who has every managed any kind of team you know that happy employees are better employees. Melo had earned the right to offer his input, anything else would be stupid on Phil's part. Now Phil still has to do whats best for the team and there is a difference between valuing a player's input and catering to them.

Also go look at the best years Melo has had in his career and what do you see? His most eff% shooting year he played next to Iverson and Melo had his best year shooting the ball playing next to a guy that took more shots than he did. The other time was with Billups when Melo played in the WCF.

This all just makes great basketball sense... but if you want to harp on stats and have buyer's lament fine. If I look at Lopez's all important WS/48 I see a player who is clearly trending down. This is clearly an indication that Lopez doesn't fit in today's modern NBA, is becoming less effective year after year and the Knicks were smart to trade now while he has value.

That's an interesting observation but if you go this route don't you have to look at the WS/48 of the players you received in the trade? If you do then how could you say you capitalized on his value by bringing in a player whose WS/48 have been -.036, .038,.009?

why should I do that when I can cherry pick to suit my own agendas? Maybe that WAS how we capitalized on his current value and we were a year or so away from waiving him or just dumping him for a late pick like Thad Young was. See how that works? You can focus on and cherry pick any one point.

Remember I did not like the Rose trade, but I didn't condemn it on the grounds that I would wait to see the other moves. Based on that I am fully behind this move. We needed another scorer and we desperately needed impact play from the backcourt. If you look at the FA guys that might have moved the needle the contracts are just stupid. As it turns out the Knick did very very well in FA in terms of value across the board, and that is all setup by the Rose trade.

Its not as simple as Rose vs. the perceived value of Jose/Grant/Lopez. It was the FA landscape, the Knick's needs and how Phil can build this team for Jeff.

We simply could NOT go into the season with Grant, Jose and LG as our guards for this coach. How well Rose plays remains to be seen, but if you watched him last year, bad stats aside you see he can do about 100 things than Jose can not. That being said you have guys here looking at WS stats and saying that Jose is a better player than Rose, which is pretty silly to anyone that has watched the game of basketball.

calderon was an awful player ... nobody is arguing. Just happens that Rose was even worse. You keep spinning this that people though calderon was good or even decent but he was not. He was terrible, just less terrible because he hurt his team less.

Not spinning it at all. Is Calderon a better player than Jose? Its a not a hard question. Did the Knick upgrade PG by replacing Calderon with Rose? (in your opinion)

Want to stop spinning? Answer those yes/no questions.

if they got the same rose that played last year (same output) then he is certainly worse. You can't get worse than rose played and you can't hurt a team worse than he did. AND CALDERON SUHUUUUCKS!

Now, do you want to compare last years jose to an improved Rose (which has not happened yet)? Go ahead and project.

So the answer is you cant answer the question, or wont. Yes or no, did the Knicks improve the PG spot this offseason? This should not be that hard.

I don't think there is any chance you get a yes or no answer but I will weigh in and maybe a visual example will help get you a response.

Yes!

You can't know right now if it will end up being an upgrade since you can't know how healthy Rose will be, what his mindset will bet, etc. At best, it's fair to ask mreinman *how likely* he thinks it is that it will end up being an upgrade, a downgrade, or a wash. Obviously, the future deals with probabilities, not known outcomes.

I think that this concept is too complicated for crush and fish ... yes or no or nothing. Variables, statistics and probabilities are for geeks and freaks, right? YES or NO please

I am not sure what the percentages are for him becoming a player that is different from the last three years. I think chances are that he will be close to the same and not have a significant improvement and that is IF he stays healthy.

Losing Rolo and Grant for him was a layden move but maybe that is just me ... perhaps I am missing something and he really is a good player and my eyeballs are just missing his intangibles.

You know something about basketball? I want your opinion... yes or no. Do you think the Knicks upgraded PG?

Do you navigate your life via statistical analysis? Or do you have you formed any opinions in your years on this Earth? I am interesting in your opinion. Shall I ask the question again?

BTW... your a ****ty dancer

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BigRedDog wrote:

mreinman wrote:good article though not enough about the down side and inefficiency potential.

Still really good data and solid research.

Melo is a great great 3 point shooter when assisted and open. This is what MDA wanted from him. Melo also led the league in long 2's ... bleh! I hope JH can make them smarter.

Either way, it certainly sounds like Melo still has a big say in personnel decisions though wish to believe that he does not.

From the article it sounds like KP may benefit even more than melo if Rose can create for him off the PnR.

It is amazing how we both can read the same article and come away with 2 different opinions. Jackson had his exit interviews with every player. Melo said he thought the team needed a pt guard. Duh! a 5 yr old watching the Knicks knew that. Where does it say Melo had ANYTHING to do with who we got??? Where does it say Melo wanted so and so or Melo gave a list of players to go after??? When someone doesn't like a player they tend to read into the negativity of the situation more than is realistic or warranted.

Phil went to Melo and asked him if "we" were moving fast enough for him meaning no playoffs for 3 years. Some hear that and think Phil is catering to Melo. Others understand that is simply good management. Like it or not Melo is very important to what the Knicks are doing for the next couple years. He has taken the franchise rookie under his wing, became a more team focused player, organized off site team building workouts and remains the team's biggest producer.

For anyone who has every managed any kind of team you know that happy employees are better employees. Melo had earned the right to offer his input, anything else would be stupid on Phil's part. Now Phil still has to do whats best for the team and there is a difference between valuing a player's input and catering to them.

Also go look at the best years Melo has had in his career and what do you see? His most eff% shooting year he played next to Iverson and Melo had his best year shooting the ball playing next to a guy that took more shots than he did. The other time was with Billups when Melo played in the WCF.

This all just makes great basketball sense... but if you want to harp on stats and have buyer's lament fine. If I look at Lopez's all important WS/48 I see a player who is clearly trending down. This is clearly an indication that Lopez doesn't fit in today's modern NBA, is becoming less effective year after year and the Knicks were smart to trade now while he has value.

That's an interesting observation but if you go this route don't you have to look at the WS/48 of the players you received in the trade? If you do then how could you say you capitalized on his value by bringing in a player whose WS/48 have been -.036, .038,.009?

why should I do that when I can cherry pick to suit my own agendas? Maybe that WAS how we capitalized on his current value and we were a year or so away from waiving him or just dumping him for a late pick like Thad Young was. See how that works? You can focus on and cherry pick any one point.

Remember I did not like the Rose trade, but I didn't condemn it on the grounds that I would wait to see the other moves. Based on that I am fully behind this move. We needed another scorer and we desperately needed impact play from the backcourt. If you look at the FA guys that might have moved the needle the contracts are just stupid. As it turns out the Knick did very very well in FA in terms of value across the board, and that is all setup by the Rose trade.

Its not as simple as Rose vs. the perceived value of Jose/Grant/Lopez. It was the FA landscape, the Knick's needs and how Phil can build this team for Jeff.

We simply could NOT go into the season with Grant, Jose and LG as our guards for this coach. How well Rose plays remains to be seen, but if you watched him last year, bad stats aside you see he can do about 100 things than Jose can not. That being said you have guys here looking at WS stats and saying that Jose is a better player than Rose, which is pretty silly to anyone that has watched the game of basketball.

calderon was an awful player ... nobody is arguing. Just happens that Rose was even worse. You keep spinning this that people though calderon was good or even decent but he was not. He was terrible, just less terrible because he hurt his team less.

Not spinning it at all. Is Calderon a better player than Jose? Its a not a hard question. Did the Knick upgrade PG by replacing Calderon with Rose? (in your opinion)

Want to stop spinning? Answer those yes/no questions.

if they got the same rose that played last year (same output) then he is certainly worse. You can't get worse than rose played and you can't hurt a team worse than he did. AND CALDERON SUHUUUUCKS!

Now, do you want to compare last years jose to an improved Rose (which has not happened yet)? Go ahead and project.

So the answer is you cant answer the question, or wont. Yes or no, did the Knicks improve the PG spot this offseason? This should not be that hard.

I don't think there is any chance you get a yes or no answer but I will weigh in and maybe a visual example will help get you a response.

Yes!

You can't know right now if it will end up being an upgrade since you can't know how healthy Rose will be, what his mindset will bet, etc. At best, it's fair to ask mreinman *how likely* he thinks it is that it will end up being an upgrade, a downgrade, or a wash. Obviously, the future deals with probabilities, not known outcomes.

I think that this concept is too complicated for crush and fish ... yes or no or nothing. Variables, statistics and probabilities are for geeks and freaks, right? YES or NO please

I am not sure what the percentages are for him becoming a player that is different from the last three years. I think chances are that he will be close to the same and not have a significant improvement and that is IF he stays healthy.

Losing Rolo and Grant for him was a layden move but maybe that is just me ... perhaps I am missing something and he really is a good player and my eyeballs are just missing his intangibles.

so do you sit through life, do nothing at all and then calculate what *might* have been a good decision or not?

You know something about basketball? I want your opinion... yes or no. Do you think the Knicks upgraded PG?

Do you navigate your life via statistical analysis? Or do you have you formed any opinions in your years on this Earth? I am interesting in your opinion. Shall I ask the question again?

BTW... your a ****ty dancer

I think that the trade down graded the team. And, you know exactly where I stand but you are just trying to play dumb jock and do some chest pounding with a 7 2 OS.

This is just cut and paste: If we get current Rose then we down graded and of course you know its not just at PG, we gave away 2 assets to try to hit on 7 2 OS.

But don't worry, as bad as rose plays, Nix will certainly post lots of charts and fluffy data to make the stink smell like roses.

(btw, of course I would have traded Calderon for Rose heads up and I am sure that even you can figure out why (statistically).

martin wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BigRedDog wrote:

mreinman wrote:good article though not enough about the down side and inefficiency potential.

Still really good data and solid research.

Melo is a great great 3 point shooter when assisted and open. This is what MDA wanted from him. Melo also led the league in long 2's ... bleh! I hope JH can make them smarter.

Either way, it certainly sounds like Melo still has a big say in personnel decisions though wish to believe that he does not.

From the article it sounds like KP may benefit even more than melo if Rose can create for him off the PnR.

It is amazing how we both can read the same article and come away with 2 different opinions. Jackson had his exit interviews with every player. Melo said he thought the team needed a pt guard. Duh! a 5 yr old watching the Knicks knew that. Where does it say Melo had ANYTHING to do with who we got??? Where does it say Melo wanted so and so or Melo gave a list of players to go after??? When someone doesn't like a player they tend to read into the negativity of the situation more than is realistic or warranted.

Phil went to Melo and asked him if "we" were moving fast enough for him meaning no playoffs for 3 years. Some hear that and think Phil is catering to Melo. Others understand that is simply good management. Like it or not Melo is very important to what the Knicks are doing for the next couple years. He has taken the franchise rookie under his wing, became a more team focused player, organized off site team building workouts and remains the team's biggest producer.

For anyone who has every managed any kind of team you know that happy employees are better employees. Melo had earned the right to offer his input, anything else would be stupid on Phil's part. Now Phil still has to do whats best for the team and there is a difference between valuing a player's input and catering to them.

Also go look at the best years Melo has had in his career and what do you see? His most eff% shooting year he played next to Iverson and Melo had his best year shooting the ball playing next to a guy that took more shots than he did. The other time was with Billups when Melo played in the WCF.

This all just makes great basketball sense... but if you want to harp on stats and have buyer's lament fine. If I look at Lopez's all important WS/48 I see a player who is clearly trending down. This is clearly an indication that Lopez doesn't fit in today's modern NBA, is becoming less effective year after year and the Knicks were smart to trade now while he has value.

That's an interesting observation but if you go this route don't you have to look at the WS/48 of the players you received in the trade? If you do then how could you say you capitalized on his value by bringing in a player whose WS/48 have been -.036, .038,.009?

why should I do that when I can cherry pick to suit my own agendas? Maybe that WAS how we capitalized on his current value and we were a year or so away from waiving him or just dumping him for a late pick like Thad Young was. See how that works? You can focus on and cherry pick any one point.

Remember I did not like the Rose trade, but I didn't condemn it on the grounds that I would wait to see the other moves. Based on that I am fully behind this move. We needed another scorer and we desperately needed impact play from the backcourt. If you look at the FA guys that might have moved the needle the contracts are just stupid. As it turns out the Knick did very very well in FA in terms of value across the board, and that is all setup by the Rose trade.

Its not as simple as Rose vs. the perceived value of Jose/Grant/Lopez. It was the FA landscape, the Knick's needs and how Phil can build this team for Jeff.

We simply could NOT go into the season with Grant, Jose and LG as our guards for this coach. How well Rose plays remains to be seen, but if you watched him last year, bad stats aside you see he can do about 100 things than Jose can not. That being said you have guys here looking at WS stats and saying that Jose is a better player than Rose, which is pretty silly to anyone that has watched the game of basketball.

calderon was an awful player ... nobody is arguing. Just happens that Rose was even worse. You keep spinning this that people though calderon was good or even decent but he was not. He was terrible, just less terrible because he hurt his team less.

Not spinning it at all. Is Calderon a better player than Jose? Its a not a hard question. Did the Knick upgrade PG by replacing Calderon with Rose? (in your opinion)

Want to stop spinning? Answer those yes/no questions.

if they got the same rose that played last year (same output) then he is certainly worse. You can't get worse than rose played and you can't hurt a team worse than he did. AND CALDERON SUHUUUUCKS!

Now, do you want to compare last years jose to an improved Rose (which has not happened yet)? Go ahead and project.

So the answer is you cant answer the question, or wont. Yes or no, did the Knicks improve the PG spot this offseason? This should not be that hard.

I don't think there is any chance you get a yes or no answer but I will weigh in and maybe a visual example will help get you a response.

Yes!

You can't know right now if it will end up being an upgrade since you can't know how healthy Rose will be, what his mindset will bet, etc. At best, it's fair to ask mreinman *how likely* he thinks it is that it will end up being an upgrade, a downgrade, or a wash. Obviously, the future deals with probabilities, not known outcomes.

I think that this concept is too complicated for crush and fish ... yes or no or nothing. Variables, statistics and probabilities are for geeks and freaks, right? YES or NO please

I am not sure what the percentages are for him becoming a player that is different from the last three years. I think chances are that he will be close to the same and not have a significant improvement and that is IF he stays healthy.

Losing Rolo and Grant for him was a layden move but maybe that is just me ... perhaps I am missing something and he really is a good player and my eyeballs are just missing his intangibles.

so do you sit through life, do nothing at all and then calculate what *might* have been a good decision or not?

You know something about basketball? I want your opinion... yes or no. Do you think the Knicks upgraded PG?

Do you navigate your life via statistical analysis? Or do you have you formed any opinions in your years on this Earth? I am interesting in your opinion. Shall I ask the question again?

BTW... your a ****ty dancer

I think that the trade down graded the team. And, you know exactly where I stand but you are just trying to play dumb jock and do some chest pounding with a 7 2 OS.

This is just cut and paste: If we get current Rose then we down graded and of course you know its not just at PG, we gave away 2 assets to try to hit on 7 2 OS.

But don't worry, as bad as rose plays, Nix will certainly post lots of charts and fluffy data to make the stink smell like roses.

(btw, of course I would have traded Calderon for Rose heads up and I am sure that even you can figure out why (statistically).

Holy avoidance and deflection

not at all, its a stupid non yes/no question.

why is it that only Bonn gets exactly what I am saying?

mreinman wrote:

martin wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BigRedDog wrote:

mreinman wrote:good article though not enough about the down side and inefficiency potential.

Still really good data and solid research.

Melo is a great great 3 point shooter when assisted and open. This is what MDA wanted from him. Melo also led the league in long 2's ... bleh! I hope JH can make them smarter.

Either way, it certainly sounds like Melo still has a big say in personnel decisions though wish to believe that he does not.

From the article it sounds like KP may benefit even more than melo if Rose can create for him off the PnR.

It is amazing how we both can read the same article and come away with 2 different opinions. Jackson had his exit interviews with every player. Melo said he thought the team needed a pt guard. Duh! a 5 yr old watching the Knicks knew that. Where does it say Melo had ANYTHING to do with who we got??? Where does it say Melo wanted so and so or Melo gave a list of players to go after??? When someone doesn't like a player they tend to read into the negativity of the situation more than is realistic or warranted.

Phil went to Melo and asked him if "we" were moving fast enough for him meaning no playoffs for 3 years. Some hear that and think Phil is catering to Melo. Others understand that is simply good management. Like it or not Melo is very important to what the Knicks are doing for the next couple years. He has taken the franchise rookie under his wing, became a more team focused player, organized off site team building workouts and remains the team's biggest producer.

For anyone who has every managed any kind of team you know that happy employees are better employees. Melo had earned the right to offer his input, anything else would be stupid on Phil's part. Now Phil still has to do whats best for the team and there is a difference between valuing a player's input and catering to them.

Also go look at the best years Melo has had in his career and what do you see? His most eff% shooting year he played next to Iverson and Melo had his best year shooting the ball playing next to a guy that took more shots than he did. The other time was with Billups when Melo played in the WCF.

This all just makes great basketball sense... but if you want to harp on stats and have buyer's lament fine. If I look at Lopez's all important WS/48 I see a player who is clearly trending down. This is clearly an indication that Lopez doesn't fit in today's modern NBA, is becoming less effective year after year and the Knicks were smart to trade now while he has value.

That's an interesting observation but if you go this route don't you have to look at the WS/48 of the players you received in the trade? If you do then how could you say you capitalized on his value by bringing in a player whose WS/48 have been -.036, .038,.009?

why should I do that when I can cherry pick to suit my own agendas? Maybe that WAS how we capitalized on his current value and we were a year or so away from waiving him or just dumping him for a late pick like Thad Young was. See how that works? You can focus on and cherry pick any one point.

Remember I did not like the Rose trade, but I didn't condemn it on the grounds that I would wait to see the other moves. Based on that I am fully behind this move. We needed another scorer and we desperately needed impact play from the backcourt. If you look at the FA guys that might have moved the needle the contracts are just stupid. As it turns out the Knick did very very well in FA in terms of value across the board, and that is all setup by the Rose trade.

Its not as simple as Rose vs. the perceived value of Jose/Grant/Lopez. It was the FA landscape, the Knick's needs and how Phil can build this team for Jeff.

We simply could NOT go into the season with Grant, Jose and LG as our guards for this coach. How well Rose plays remains to be seen, but if you watched him last year, bad stats aside you see he can do about 100 things than Jose can not. That being said you have guys here looking at WS stats and saying that Jose is a better player than Rose, which is pretty silly to anyone that has watched the game of basketball.

calderon was an awful player ... nobody is arguing. Just happens that Rose was even worse. You keep spinning this that people though calderon was good or even decent but he was not. He was terrible, just less terrible because he hurt his team less.

Not spinning it at all. Is Calderon a better player than Jose? Its a not a hard question. Did the Knick upgrade PG by replacing Calderon with Rose? (in your opinion)

Want to stop spinning? Answer those yes/no questions.

if they got the same rose that played last year (same output) then he is certainly worse. You can't get worse than rose played and you can't hurt a team worse than he did. AND CALDERON SUHUUUUCKS!

Now, do you want to compare last years jose to an improved Rose (which has not happened yet)? Go ahead and project.

So the answer is you cant answer the question, or wont. Yes or no, did the Knicks improve the PG spot this offseason? This should not be that hard.

I don't think there is any chance you get a yes or no answer but I will weigh in and maybe a visual example will help get you a response.

Yes!

You can't know right now if it will end up being an upgrade since you can't know how healthy Rose will be, what his mindset will bet, etc. At best, it's fair to ask mreinman *how likely* he thinks it is that it will end up being an upgrade, a downgrade, or a wash. Obviously, the future deals with probabilities, not known outcomes.

I think that this concept is too complicated for crush and fish ... yes or no or nothing. Variables, statistics and probabilities are for geeks and freaks, right? YES or NO please

I am not sure what the percentages are for him becoming a player that is different from the last three years. I think chances are that he will be close to the same and not have a significant improvement and that is IF he stays healthy.

Losing Rolo and Grant for him was a layden move but maybe that is just me ... perhaps I am missing something and he really is a good player and my eyeballs are just missing his intangibles.

so do you sit through life, do nothing at all and then calculate what *might* have been a good decision or not?

You know something about basketball? I want your opinion... yes or no. Do you think the Knicks upgraded PG?

Do you navigate your life via statistical analysis? Or do you have you formed any opinions in your years on this Earth? I am interesting in your opinion. Shall I ask the question again?

BTW... your a ****ty dancer

I think that the trade down graded the team. And, you know exactly where I stand but you are just trying to play dumb jock and do some chest pounding with a 7 2 OS.

This is just cut and paste: If we get current Rose then we down graded and of course you know its not just at PG, we gave away 2 assets to try to hit on 7 2 OS.

But don't worry, as bad as rose plays, Nix will certainly post lots of charts and fluffy data to make the stink smell like roses.

(btw, of course I would have traded Calderon for Rose heads up and I am sure that even you can figure out why (statistically).

Holy avoidance and deflection

not at all, its a stupid non yes/no question.

why is it that only Bonn gets exactly what I am saying?

You and Bonn are not making fully fleshed out arguments! Now you haven't actually commented on the points I'm making in addition to the stats I've posted. I'm not making simplistic arguments. I'm actually looking at the background circumstances behind the stats. You and Bonn are only looking at numbers in a vacuum and dismissing all the other valid but often intangible factors.

In your approach we look at the numbers and totally ignore the extenuating factors. Most players coming off knee surgery and long layoffs tend to underperform. So it's no surprise that Rose struggled coming back from his each time he had surgery. Then add in the layoff from the Facial surgery and double vision before he finally took off the mask and again it makes sense his numbers were bad. None of this proves Rose is now a bad player. It's just logical that dealing with the layoff and double vision messed him up. Now he finally has a full summer for the first time in years to properly prepare. So it's not unreasonable to think that will help him to be better next season.