Nalod wrote:Can't say for sure who I'd trade KP for. It would have to be a deal that makes us contenders.
Way I see this team at the moment, we can make a nice run for 2-3 years, but at some point after KP starts his trajectory were his prime is still beyond that time.

I think there's a lot of benefit to having KP earn his stripes on a good team. this team will be his team in four years and it certainly won't be Melo's.

SupremeCommander wrote:

Nalod wrote:Can't say for sure who I'd trade KP for. It would have to be a deal that makes us contenders.
Way I see this team at the moment, we can make a nice run for 2-3 years, but at some point after KP starts his trajectory were his prime is still beyond that time.

I think there's a lot of benefit to having KP earn his stripes on a good team. this team will be his team in four years and it certainly won't be Melo's.

This is exactly how i view things. I have never wanted to rebuild around KP this second. We have an opportunity to put him with good talent and good vets who can teach him how to be a part of a winning team. It is hard to build a winning culture if you are playing for the lottery for a few seasons. You can build a winner now, while adding pieces for the future at the same time. It doesn't have to be one of the other, it can be both. He will benefit more from winning and playing in meaningful games. There will come a time when this group will be done and we will have KP as a ready-made star for leading a new core group, and in 3 or 4 years when that time comes, he will still be just scratching the surface of his best years. In the meantime, he will still have the opportunity to grow into a star and contribute at this own pace.

Knixkik wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

Nalod wrote:Can't say for sure who I'd trade KP for. It would have to be a deal that makes us contenders.
Way I see this team at the moment, we can make a nice run for 2-3 years, but at some point after KP starts his trajectory were his prime is still beyond that time.

I think there's a lot of benefit to having KP earn his stripes on a good team. this team will be his team in four years and it certainly won't be Melo's.

This is exactly how i view things. I have never wanted to rebuild around KP this second. We have an opportunity to put him with good talent and good vets who can teach him how to be a part of a winning team. It is hard to build a winning culture if you are playing for the lottery for a few seasons. You can build a winner now, while adding pieces for the future at the same time. It doesn't have to be one of the other, it can be both. He will benefit more from winning and playing in meaningful games. There will come a time when this group will be done and we will have KP as a ready-made star for leading a new core group, and in 3 or 4 years when that time comes, he will still be just scratching the surface of his best years. In the meantime, he will still have the opportunity to grow into a star and contribute at this own pace.

I still think that the lack of draft picks in 2 of Phil's first 3 years was a major determining factor influencing his decision making.

Is it possible that he might not have resigned Melo if we had all of our draft picks...instead choosing to do a complete makeover? We will never know, but he had to make due with what he inherited, and not having all his #1s was one determining factor in his decision making process.

How many players are still with the team from the first year he arrived? Might be 0 if he had his full compliment of draft picks upon taking the job.

Knixkik wrote:This is exactly how i view things. I have never wanted to rebuild around KP this second. We have an opportunity to put him with good talent and good vets who can teach him how to be a part of a winning team. It is hard to build a winning culture if you are playing for the lottery for a few seasons. You can build a winner now, while adding pieces for the future at the same time. It doesn't have to be one of the other, it can be both. He will benefit more from winning and playing in meaningful games. There will come a time when this group will be done and we will have KP as a ready-made star for leading a new core group, and in 3 or 4 years when that time comes, he will still be just scratching the surface of his best years. In the meantime, he will still have the opportunity to grow into a star and contribute at this own pace.

The "Now and Later" strategy. It's the blueprint for how to properly do an on-the-fly rebuild while instilling a winning culture. Helps to have a unicorn of course.

Kemet wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:Non-knick fans are not as invested in Porzingis as most knicks fans are. Kp had a quality season showing that he is capable of being an NBA starter but he hasn't shown that he is a great player yet. His physical attributes and skill set leads most to think he has the potential to be great but he has not displayed a constant level of great play like Towns did last year.

I would not do the trade because I feel KP can be great but more importantly the possible FAs to add to this team next would be greater than having just Westbrook, Lee, Melo, and Noah.

So True .. Only Knicks fans are interested and would invest a future in Porzingis.
Porzingis rookie performance did not make a splash to where many of the 2015 first round draft pick teams wish they selected KP over their selection.

Westbrook and Lillard are the NBA TOP 3 all-around BEST PG on the court the past 3 years in a row.
The OKC organization would want 2 future first round picks with KP and Rose for just Westbrook.

To say i would not trade Porzingis for Westbrook are the same as saying i wouldn't have selected Karl Anthony Towns over Porzingis in the draft ...........

No, but it IS saying you'd select Towns for 1 season over Porzingis, and considering in Towns one season all Minnesota did was qualify for the lottery again, that's bad math.

Knicks have Porzingis for 4 more seasons and effectively for as many as 7 or 8 more.

In your analogy, Towns is an unrestricted free agent right now, after 1 season.

If you'd trade 4-8 years of Porzingis for 1 years of Towns (not even mentioning the additional first round draft picks), well, i believe the miscalculation is self-evident.

Knickoftime wrote:

Kemet wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:Non-knick fans are not as invested in Porzingis as most knicks fans are. Kp had a quality season showing that he is capable of being an NBA starter but he hasn't shown that he is a great player yet. His physical attributes and skill set leads most to think he has the potential to be great but he has not displayed a constant level of great play like Towns did last year.

I would not do the trade because I feel KP can be great but more importantly the possible FAs to add to this team next would be greater than having just Westbrook, Lee, Melo, and Noah.

So True .. Only Knicks fans are interested and would invest a future in Porzingis.
Porzingis rookie performance did not make a splash to where many of the 2015 first round draft pick teams wish they selected KP over their selection.

Westbrook and Lillard are the NBA TOP 3 all-around BEST PG on the court the past 3 years in a row.
The OKC organization would want 2 future first round picks with KP and Rose for just Westbrook.

To say i would not trade Porzingis for Westbrook are the same as saying i wouldn't have selected Karl Anthony Towns over Porzingis in the draft ...........

No, but it IS saying you'd select Towns for 1 season over Porzingis, and considering in Towns one season all Minnesota did was qualify for the lottery again, that's bad math.

Knicks have Porzingis for 4 more seasons and effectively for as many as 7 or 8 more.

In your analogy, Towns is an unrestricted free agent right now, after 1 season.

If you'd trade 4-8 years of Porzingis for 1 years of Towns (not even mentioning the additional first round draft picks), well, i believe the miscalculation is self-evident.

Huh .. The Knicks were a 7th place LOTTERY team compared to Minny being a 5th place Lottery team.
Minny did not have a $124M Melo on the roster either

Knickoftime wrote:

Kemet wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Kemet wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:Non-knick fans are not as invested in Porzingis as most knicks fans are. Kp had a quality season showing that he is capable of being an NBA starter but he hasn't shown that he is a great player yet. His physical attributes and skill set leads most to think he has the potential to be great but he has not displayed a constant level of great play like Towns did last year.

I would not do the trade because I feel KP can be great but more importantly the possible FAs to add to this team next would be greater than having just Westbrook, Lee, Melo, and Noah.

So True .. Only Knicks fans are interested and would invest a future in Porzingis.
Porzingis rookie performance did not make a splash to where many of the 2015 first round draft pick teams wish they selected KP over their selection.

Westbrook and Lillard are the NBA TOP 3 all-around BEST PG on the court the past 3 years in a row.
The OKC organization would want 2 future first round picks with KP and Rose for just Westbrook.

To say i would not trade Porzingis for Westbrook are the same as saying i wouldn't have selected Karl Anthony Towns over Porzingis in the draft ...........

No, but it IS saying you'd select Towns for 1 season over Porzingis, and considering in Towns one season all Minnesota did was qualify for the lottery again, that's bad math.

Knicks have Porzingis for 4 more seasons and effectively for as many as 7 or 8 more.

In your analogy, Towns is an unrestricted free agent right now, after 1 season.

If you'd trade 4-8 years of Porzingis for 1 years of Towns (not even mentioning the additional first round draft picks), well, i believe the miscalculation is self-evident.

Huh .. The Knicks were a 7th place LOTTERY team compared to Minny being a 5th place Lottery team.
Minny did not have a $124M Melo on the roster either

None of that is relevant. You missed the point.

Westbrook is a unrestricted free agent in 340 days.

You think Westbrook is a superior player to KP, you be right.

Odds are Towns will be too.

But you're only getting Westbrook for one year, is the point.

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Kemet wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Kemet wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:Non-knick fans are not as invested in Porzingis as most knicks fans are. Kp had a quality season showing that he is capable of being an NBA starter but he hasn't shown that he is a great player yet. His physical attributes and skill set leads most to think he has the potential to be great but he has not displayed a constant level of great play like Towns did last year.

I would not do the trade because I feel KP can be great but more importantly the possible FAs to add to this team next would be greater than having just Westbrook, Lee, Melo, and Noah.

So True .. Only Knicks fans are interested and would invest a future in Porzingis.
Porzingis rookie performance did not make a splash to where many of the 2015 first round draft pick teams wish they selected KP over their selection.

Westbrook and Lillard are the NBA TOP 3 all-around BEST PG on the court the past 3 years in a row.
The OKC organization would want 2 future first round picks with KP and Rose for just Westbrook.

To say i would not trade Porzingis for Westbrook are the same as saying i wouldn't have selected Karl Anthony Towns over Porzingis in the draft ...........

No, but it IS saying you'd select Towns for 1 season over Porzingis, and considering in Towns one season all Minnesota did was qualify for the lottery again, that's bad math.

Knicks have Porzingis for 4 more seasons and effectively for as many as 7 or 8 more.

In your analogy, Towns is an unrestricted free agent right now, after 1 season.

If you'd trade 4-8 years of Porzingis for 1 years of Towns (not even mentioning the additional first round draft picks), well, i believe the miscalculation is self-evident.

Huh .. The Knicks were a 7th place LOTTERY team compared to Minny being a 5th place Lottery team.
Minny did not have a $124M Melo on the roster either

None of that is relevant. You missed the point.

Westbrook is a unrestricted free agent in 340 days.

You think Westbrook is a superior player to KP, you be right.

Odds are Towns will be too.

But you're only getting Westbrook for one year, is the point.

How do you know that? It would be different if you said that there's a chance you only get Westbrook for 1 year.

Because he is contracted for one year.

Sure, it's a theoretically possible he leaves significant money on the table to sign an extension to guard against significant injury in 2016-17. Yes, that's theoretically possible.

Just not at all likely.

Knickoftime wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Kemet wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Kemet wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:Non-knick fans are not as invested in Porzingis as most knicks fans are. Kp had a quality season showing that he is capable of being an NBA starter but he hasn't shown that he is a great player yet. His physical attributes and skill set leads most to think he has the potential to be great but he has not displayed a constant level of great play like Towns did last year.

I would not do the trade because I feel KP can be great but more importantly the possible FAs to add to this team next would be greater than having just Westbrook, Lee, Melo, and Noah.

So True .. Only Knicks fans are interested and would invest a future in Porzingis.
Porzingis rookie performance did not make a splash to where many of the 2015 first round draft pick teams wish they selected KP over their selection.

Westbrook and Lillard are the NBA TOP 3 all-around BEST PG on the court the past 3 years in a row.
The OKC organization would want 2 future first round picks with KP and Rose for just Westbrook.

To say i would not trade Porzingis for Westbrook are the same as saying i wouldn't have selected Karl Anthony Towns over Porzingis in the draft ...........

No, but it IS saying you'd select Towns for 1 season over Porzingis, and considering in Towns one season all Minnesota did was qualify for the lottery again, that's bad math.

Knicks have Porzingis for 4 more seasons and effectively for as many as 7 or 8 more.

In your analogy, Towns is an unrestricted free agent right now, after 1 season.

If you'd trade 4-8 years of Porzingis for 1 years of Towns (not even mentioning the additional first round draft picks), well, i believe the miscalculation is self-evident.

Huh .. The Knicks were a 7th place LOTTERY team compared to Minny being a 5th place Lottery team.
Minny did not have a $124M Melo on the roster either

None of that is relevant. You missed the point.

Westbrook is a unrestricted free agent in 340 days.

You think Westbrook is a superior player to KP, you be right.

Odds are Towns will be too.

But you're only getting Westbrook for one year, is the point.

How do you know that? It would be different if you said that there's a chance you only get Westbrook for 1 year.

Because he is contracted for one year.

Sure, it's a theoretically possible he leaves significant money on the table to sign an extension to guard against significant injury in 2016-17. Yes, that's theoretically possible.

Just not at all likely.

Knickoftime wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Kemet wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Kemet wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:Non-knick fans are not as invested in Porzingis as most knicks fans are. Kp had a quality season showing that he is capable of being an NBA starter but he hasn't shown that he is a great player yet. His physical attributes and skill set leads most to think he has the potential to be great but he has not displayed a constant level of great play like Towns did last year.

I would not do the trade because I feel KP can be great but more importantly the possible FAs to add to this team next would be greater than having just Westbrook, Lee, Melo, and Noah.

So True .. Only Knicks fans are interested and would invest a future in Porzingis.
Porzingis rookie performance did not make a splash to where many of the 2015 first round draft pick teams wish they selected KP over their selection.

Westbrook and Lillard are the NBA TOP 3 all-around BEST PG on the court the past 3 years in a row.
The OKC organization would want 2 future first round picks with KP and Rose for just Westbrook.

To say i would not trade Porzingis for Westbrook are the same as saying i wouldn't have selected Karl Anthony Towns over Porzingis in the draft ...........

No, but it IS saying you'd select Towns for 1 season over Porzingis, and considering in Towns one season all Minnesota did was qualify for the lottery again, that's bad math.

Knicks have Porzingis for 4 more seasons and effectively for as many as 7 or 8 more.

In your analogy, Towns is an unrestricted free agent right now, after 1 season.

If you'd trade 4-8 years of Porzingis for 1 years of Towns (not even mentioning the additional first round draft picks), well, i believe the miscalculation is self-evident.

Huh .. The Knicks were a 7th place LOTTERY team compared to Minny being a 5th place Lottery team.
Minny did not have a $124M Melo on the roster either

None of that is relevant. You missed the point.

Westbrook is a unrestricted free agent in 340 days.

You think Westbrook is a superior player to KP, you be right.

Odds are Towns will be too.

But you're only getting Westbrook for one year, is the point.

How do you know that? It would be different if you said that there's a chance you only get Westbrook for 1 year.

Because he is contracted for one year.

Sure, it's a theoretically possible he leaves significant money on the table to sign an extension to guard against significant injury in 2016-17. Yes, that's theoretically possible.

Just not at all likely.

Why is it extremely unlikely he would re-sign here? The current team can outbid other teams. Usually star FAs stay with their current teams. The issue in terms of evaluating the trade is whether or not we'd lose him, not whether he'd sign an extension in season vs. re-sign after the season.

It is not at all unlikely, maybe even probable.

But then the equation becomes Porzingis, multiple firsts, and Rose for one year and an advantage in the recruiting process.

If you want to factor in the possibility he stays an an UFA, you also have to factor in the possibility he comes as a UFA without the trade, then your cost-analysis is accurate.

The equations is Porzingis/Rose/multiple firsts for the 1 year and the advantage but non guarantee having him gives you in retaining him vs. keeping Porzingis and your multiple firsts and the possibility he chooses NY asa UFA next year.

Again, he's the best player in the deal significantly at the moment, no argument. But from an analytical standpoint, I find it hard to justify the certain loss with the uncertain gain.