franco12 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:mreinman, dk... who are the guys Phil should have targeted that would have improved your offseason grades?

for starters, don't make the rose trade. undo that and we are in B territory.

Rose begat Noah, Noah begat CLee.

Our off-season would be Brandon Jennings anddddd... what else?

If we got Jennings, kept Lopez and perhaps kept D Williams & maybe still added Courtney Lee - to me, that might have been the kind of incremental improvement we needed, get to 40 wins+/- and then add a late lottery/Mid 1st round pick to the mix for the following year, and then maybe be in play for Westbrook.

And then the play off drive starts then.

But, hey, we're just keyboard GMs.

What's the virtue of that over the new status quo, just to be clear?

Mid-first round pick (or lottery if injuries occur) and maybe in play for westbrook are still in play.

So what's the upside of more incremental?

Lopez for 3 years as opposed to Noah for 4?

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:mreinman, dk... who are the guys Phil should have targeted that would have improved your offseason grades?

for starters, don't make the rose trade. undo that and we are in B territory.

So you wouldn't want to trade for this?

Nix - where did you get the 51% on drives figure? It seems inconsistent with the above info. I guess maybe he's 51% on drives and very low on other shots in the paint?

Player	      Team  GP  W  L  MIN  DRIVES  FGM  FGA  FG%  FTM  FTA  FT%  PTS  PTS%  PASS  PASS%  AST  AST%  TO  TO%  PF  PF%
Derrick Rose  CHI   66	32 34 31.8  8.9	   2.8	5.5  51.0 1.3  1.7  76.1 6.9  76.9  2.1   23.3   0.6  6.5   0.6 7.1  1.0 11.5

http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/drives/?sort=DRIVES&dir=1

In Hornacek's spread style of offense I expect that Rose will find it easier to get into the paint and he can be more efficient with less traffic and defenders to protect the rim. Melo and KP can run High PnR and otherwise space the floor with Lee and allow Rose to be more successful. Especially when the Knicks go small with KP at Center.

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

djsunyc wrote:

Nalod wrote:

fishmike wrote:mreinman, dk... who are the guys Phil should have targeted that would have improved your offseason grades?

I can't speak for them, but some fans can't live with "uncertainty". Either tank and move toward high draft pick or sign Durant and contend now!!

i agree a lot of online fans sway to extremes. i think the best you can hope from a gm is to have a plan - try to put together a cohesive unit and build a franchise that can play well now and a franchise that is set up to play well in the future.

you can safely consider lee and melo as fits in the now portion. noah also fits the now portion only if he is healthy.

the rose move doesn't answer either now or future healthy or not. even if he has an ok season, it would be a very dumb move to re-sign him based on past injuries. and past injuries is why noah doesn't apply to future as well. what differentiates their injuries from guys like durant or westbrook is that those players actually came back and put up just as good numbers as before their injuries. these two have yet to do that.

future is porzingis and a bunch of unknowns (young guys you signed and draft picks you haven't made yet).

whatever plan phil tried to execute the past two years got brushed aside quickly this offseason.

Rose is a low risk gamble that he can have a resurgence. Rose being successful will still be a good problem to have. Those who suggest that it's a problem if Rose has a good season are really reaching. The key will be to work to have younger and healthier guards behind Rose and Jennings. Neither guard is locked into anything long term. The Knicks will still be able to reload if necessary next summer.

The Knicks aren't expecting Rose or Noah to put up MVP or DPOY level seasons. Neither will have to do that in order to help this team win!!! The Spurs got to the Finals with a less than spectacular Tim Duncan, so you can still benefit from players experience even if they aren't quite the peak level versions of themselves. Rose can still beat his man regularly and Noah can still rebound, pass and defend. Those things will help this team tremendously!!!

Of course KP is the future. That's not really a big news flash. For his sake tho, it's a good thing for him to practice and play with a higher caliber of player and possibly get post season experience as he continues to develop.

Phil's PLAN the last few years have been the same. Try to put a winning roster together for now and also have a future component to the roster as well. Every summer he's added VETS to the team. Aside from the brief period late last season with Grant starting and going into the summer with Grant and Wroten he's spent the majority of the time with VETS on the roster. So technically the PLAN hasn't changed. We've had a VET starting lineup the entire time Phil has been here.

the team is apparently and once again in win-now mode, according to its president. how many wins nixluva?

Noah and Lee are the only long term signings. The Knicks didn't have a pick. What 'legacy' players moved teams that the Knicks missed out on? Mindy is reasonably young. It sounds like the Knicks felt Grant was a mistake pretty early on. Did the Knicks blow it because they traded Grant and didn't resign Gallo? Also, I think that path has Rambis coaching instead of Hornacek.

franco12 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:mreinman, dk... who are the guys Phil should have targeted that would have improved your offseason grades?

for starters, don't make the rose trade. undo that and we are in B territory.

Rose begat Noah, Noah begat CLee.

Our off-season would be Brandon Jennings anddddd... what else?

If we got Jennings, kept Lopez and perhaps kept D Williams & maybe still added Courtney Lee - to me, that might have been the kind of incremental improvement we needed, get to 40 wins+/- and then add a late lottery/Mid 1st round pick to the mix for the following year, and then maybe be in play for Westbrook.

And then the play off drive starts then.

But, hey, we're just keyboard GMs.

Lee aint here without Noah...As much as you guys complained and killed PJax for last years team, are you really trying to justify the same lineup coming back with the only real acquisition being Jennings and that would have been a job well done by Phil? Not buying....Did you notice that Durant joined a 73 win team because he wants to win? Why in the hell would Westbrook join a 39 win team?

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:mreinman, dk... who are the guys Phil should have targeted that would have improved your offseason grades?

for starters, don't make the rose trade. undo that and we are in B territory.

So you wouldn't want to trade for this?

Nix - where did you get the 51% on drives figure? It seems inconsistent with the above info. I guess maybe he's 51% on drives and very low on other shots in the paint?

Just because a shot happens inside doesn't mean it came on a Drive, which is a very specific thing.

Player	      Team  GP  W  L  MIN  DRIVES  FGM  FGA  FG%  FTM  FTA  FT%  PTS  PTS%  PASS  PASS%  AST  AST%  TO  TO%  PF  PF%
Derrick Rose  CHI   66	32 34 31.8  8.9	   2.8	5.5  51.0 1.3  1.7  76.1 6.9  76.9  2.1   23.3   0.6  6.5   0.6 7.1  1.0 11.5

http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/drives/?sort=DRIVES&dir=1

In Hornacek's spread style of offense I expect that Rose will find it easier to get into the paint and he can be more efficient with less traffic and defenders to protect the rim. Melo and KP can run High PnR and otherwise space the floor with Lee and allow Rose to be more successful. Especially when the Knicks go small with KP at Center.

OK, that's what I thought. Hopefully Rose and Melo cut out the low percentage contested shots they've been taking.

Hornacek's entire focus is on his players efficiency and he's going to put them in positions where the shots they take are almost forced to be higher % shots. IMO you have to help your players to understand what you want. He's not really looking to push mid range shots but instead keep forcing teams into bad choices that leave great shots at the rim or from 3 that come in rhythm and with enough space to be more successful. He's proven that he can create those kinds of looks with his schemes. That's what excites me the most about Hornacek as the Coach. He's clear minded about what he is looking to do with the team and how he wants them to play. He's Ultra Focused on Efficiency. He'll nitpick about bad shots more than a coach that isn't so focused on that. I believe it will make a difference.

Well hopefully it will work better for Rose than it did for Brandon Knight under Hornacek. I like Hornacek but sometimes players are who they are.

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:mreinman, dk... who are the guys Phil should have targeted that would have improved your offseason grades?

for starters, don't make the rose trade. undo that and we are in B territory.

Rose begat Noah, Noah begat CLee.

Our off-season would be Brandon Jennings anddddd... what else?

If we got Jennings, kept Lopez and perhaps kept D Williams & maybe still added Courtney Lee - to me, that might have been the kind of incremental improvement we needed, get to 40 wins+/- and then add a late lottery/Mid 1st round pick to the mix for the following year, and then maybe be in play for Westbrook.

And then the play off drive starts then.

But, hey, we're just keyboard GMs.

So you think a 40 win roster is going to entice Westbrook? Cmon man... you are just not watching the NBA or paying attention.

However I have a simple retort, and I asked Bonn this in another thread and he ducked it. If you believe in incremental improvement I have a very simple question. Knicks win 41 games with this roster next year. Based on your expectation that is a successful correct?

Even Bill Simmons, who is a straight Knicks hater, predicted they'd win 47 games next year. He was like what's the point, while gushing about how Boston winning 48 games and getting to the second round attracted Horford. And that's the exact point - Knicks win high 40s, maybe 50 games and get to the second round and they have a shot at the big fish free agents.

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:mreinman, dk... who are the guys Phil should have targeted that would have improved your offseason grades?

for starters, don't make the rose trade. undo that and we are in B territory.

So you wouldn't want to trade for this?

Nix - where did you get the 51% on drives figure? It seems inconsistent with the above info. I guess maybe he's 51% on drives and very low on other shots in the paint?

Just because a shot happens inside doesn't mean it came on a Drive, which is a very specific thing.

Player	      Team  GP  W  L  MIN  DRIVES  FGM  FGA  FG%  FTM  FTA  FT%  PTS  PTS%  PASS  PASS%  AST  AST%  TO  TO%  PF  PF%
Derrick Rose  CHI   66	32 34 31.8  8.9	   2.8	5.5  51.0 1.3  1.7  76.1 6.9  76.9  2.1   23.3   0.6  6.5   0.6 7.1  1.0 11.5

http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/drives/?sort=DRIVES&dir=1

In Hornacek's spread style of offense I expect that Rose will find it easier to get into the paint and he can be more efficient with less traffic and defenders to protect the rim. Melo and KP can run High PnR and otherwise space the floor with Lee and allow Rose to be more successful. Especially when the Knicks go small with KP at Center.

OK, that's what I thought. Hopefully Rose and Melo cut out the low percentage contested shots they've been taking.

Hornacek's entire focus is on his players efficiency and he's going to put them in positions where the shots they take are almost forced to be higher % shots. IMO you have to help your players to understand what you want. He's not really looking to push mid range shots but instead keep forcing teams into bad choices that leave great shots at the rim or from 3 that come in rhythm and with enough space to be more successful. He's proven that he can create those kinds of looks with his schemes. That's what excites me the most about Hornacek as the Coach. He's clear minded about what he is looking to do with the team and how he wants them to play. He's Ultra Focused on Efficiency. He'll nitpick about bad shots more than a coach that isn't so focused on that. I believe it will make a difference.

Well hopefully it will work better for Rose than it did for Brandon Knight under Hornacek. I like Hornacek but sometimes players are who they are.

Yeah, I would actually say players usually are who they are

His knees are always going to be a ticking time bomb of sorts. Not so much the ACL but the Meniscus tears that had to be cleaned up. That is Cartilage and so IMO that is the more serious concern for him. We don't know exactly where the tears were and how serious they are. The Knicks sent Derrick to the Hospital for Special Surgery in NYC to take a look at his knees and were reportedly "extremely happy". In the end that's all anyone can do.

yellowboy90 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:mreinman, dk... who are the guys Phil should have targeted that would have improved your offseason grades?

for starters, don't make the rose trade. undo that and we are in B territory.

So you wouldn't want to trade for this?

Nix - where did you get the 51% on drives figure? It seems inconsistent with the above info. I guess maybe he's 51% on drives and very low on other shots in the paint?

Just because a shot happens inside doesn't mean it came on a Drive, which is a very specific thing.

Player	      Team  GP  W  L  MIN  DRIVES  FGM  FGA  FG%  FTM  FTA  FT%  PTS  PTS%  PASS  PASS%  AST  AST%  TO  TO%  PF  PF%
Derrick Rose  CHI   66	32 34 31.8  8.9	   2.8	5.5  51.0 1.3  1.7  76.1 6.9  76.9  2.1   23.3   0.6  6.5   0.6 7.1  1.0 11.5

http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/drives/?sort=DRIVES&dir=1

In Hornacek's spread style of offense I expect that Rose will find it easier to get into the paint and he can be more efficient with less traffic and defenders to protect the rim. Melo and KP can run High PnR and otherwise space the floor with Lee and allow Rose to be more successful. Especially when the Knicks go small with KP at Center.

OK, that's what I thought. Hopefully Rose and Melo cut out the low percentage contested shots they've been taking.

Hornacek's entire focus is on his players efficiency and he's going to put them in positions where the shots they take are almost forced to be higher % shots. IMO you have to help your players to understand what you want. He's not really looking to push mid range shots but instead keep forcing teams into bad choices that leave great shots at the rim or from 3 that come in rhythm and with enough space to be more successful. He's proven that he can create those kinds of looks with his schemes. That's what excites me the most about Hornacek as the Coach. He's clear minded about what he is looking to do with the team and how he wants them to play. He's Ultra Focused on Efficiency. He'll nitpick about bad shots more than a coach that isn't so focused on that. I believe it will make a difference.

Well hopefully it will work better for Rose than it did for Brandon Knight under Hornacek. I like Hornacek but sometimes players are who they are.

Yeah, I would actually say players usually are who they are

That can be true but when was Brandon Knight EVER able to play at the level Rose has at least shown he's capable when he was fully healthy and in top form? Rose has shown in the past that he could shoot more efficiently than he did last season. He did have the Eye issue this season along with not being able to work on his shooting as he needed and any player needs in order to be sharp. Rose did pick up his shooting efficiency during the season which isn't the final verdict on just how much better he can get in that regard. So IMO it's very probable that Rose will be a more efficient scorer and shooter next season.

His knees are always going to be a ticking time bomb of sorts. Not so much the ACL but the Meniscus tears that had to be cleaned up. That is Cartilage and so IMO that is the more serious concern for him. We don't know exactly where the tears were and how serious they are. The Knicks sent Derrick to the Hospital for Special Surgery in NYC to take a look at his knees and were reportedly "extremely happy". In the end that's all anyone can do.

The year he was traded to Phoenix, in Mil he has an TS% of 55.6% which was slightly higher than Rose's MVP year. That MVP just so happen to be rose's only efficient year.
The real issue is why didn't Rose get to the line and what happen to his defense last year.

Rose works too hard to avoid contact. He's always twisting and turning his body to avoid the foul, which he should not be doing but it's a habit he's doing almost unconsciously at this point. I doubt he will change that behavior. For me the important thing is for Rose to help push the pace and aggressiveness of this team. Being on the attack nearly constantly will have a very positive impact beyond his shooting %. I'm not sure people are grasping how that will change the way this team plays and how other teams defense can be disrupted.

Rose    8.9 Drives at 51%
Jose    2.2 Drives at 49%
Afflalo 2.2 Drives at 42%
Gallo   1.3 Drives at 48%
Grant   3.5 Drives at 46%

I expect that Rose will find it a bit easier to get driving lanes under Hornacek. He has a very unique focus on creating the space his guards need. Now he has the talent on the Knicks to really create that space with Melo, KP and Lee out there and particularly when they go with KP at Center and add another scorer in place of Noah.

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:mreinman, dk... who are the guys Phil should have targeted that would have improved your offseason grades?

for starters, don't make the rose trade. undo that and we are in B territory.

So you wouldn't want to trade for this?

Nix - where did you get the 51% on drives figure? It seems inconsistent with the above info. I guess maybe he's 51% on drives and very low on other shots in the paint?

Just because a shot happens inside doesn't mean it came on a Drive, which is a very specific thing.

Player	      Team  GP  W  L  MIN  DRIVES  FGM  FGA  FG%  FTM  FTA  FT%  PTS  PTS%  PASS  PASS%  AST  AST%  TO  TO%  PF  PF%
Derrick Rose  CHI   66	32 34 31.8  8.9	   2.8	5.5  51.0 1.3  1.7  76.1 6.9  76.9  2.1   23.3   0.6  6.5   0.6 7.1  1.0 11.5

http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/drives/?sort=DRIVES&dir=1

In Hornacek's spread style of offense I expect that Rose will find it easier to get into the paint and he can be more efficient with less traffic and defenders to protect the rim. Melo and KP can run High PnR and otherwise space the floor with Lee and allow Rose to be more successful. Especially when the Knicks go small with KP at Center.

OK, that's what I thought. Hopefully Rose and Melo cut out the low percentage contested shots they've been taking.

Hornacek's entire focus is on his players efficiency and he's going to put them in positions where the shots they take are almost forced to be higher % shots. IMO you have to help your players to understand what you want. He's not really looking to push mid range shots but instead keep forcing teams into bad choices that leave great shots at the rim or from 3 that come in rhythm and with enough space to be more successful. He's proven that he can create those kinds of looks with his schemes. That's what excites me the most about Hornacek as the Coach. He's clear minded about what he is looking to do with the team and how he wants them to play. He's Ultra Focused on Efficiency. He'll nitpick about bad shots more than a coach that isn't so focused on that. I believe it will make a difference.

Well hopefully it will work better for Rose than it did for Brandon Knight under Hornacek. I like Hornacek but sometimes players are who they are.

Yeah, I would actually say players usually are who they are

That can be true but when was Brandon Knight EVER able to play at the level Rose has at least shown he's capable when he was fully healthy and in top form? Rose has shown in the past that he could shoot more efficiently than he did last season. He did have the Eye issue this season along with not being able to work on his shooting as he needed and any player needs in order to be sharp. Rose did pick up his shooting efficiency during the season which isn't the final verdict on just how much better he can get in that regard. So IMO it's very probable that Rose will be a more efficient scorer and shooter next season.

His knees are always going to be a ticking time bomb of sorts. Not so much the ACL but the Meniscus tears that had to be cleaned up. That is Cartilage and so IMO that is the more serious concern for him. We don't know exactly where the tears were and how serious they are. The Knicks sent Derrick to the Hospital for Special Surgery in NYC to take a look at his knees and were reportedly "extremely happy". In the end that's all anyone can do.

The year he was traded to Phoenix, in Mil he has an TS% of 55.6% which was slightly higher than Rose's MVP year. That MVP just so happen to be rose's only efficient year.
The real issue is why didn't Rose get to the line and what happen to his defense last year.

TS%? Yes in that one sense he was on par with Rose, but in terms of overall impact I don't think many are gonna be singing Knights praises. Rose is even now a much more feared player with the ball in his hands.

Rose works too hard to avoid contact. He's always twisting and turning his body to avoid the foul, which he should not be doing but it's a habit he's doing almost unconsciously at this point. I doubt he will change that behavior. For me the important thing is for Rose to help push the pace and aggressiveness of this team. Being on the attack nearly constantly will have a very positive impact beyond his shooting %. I'm not sure people are grasping how that will change the way this team plays and how other teams defense can be disrupted.

Rose    8.9 Drives at 51%
Jose    2.2 Drives at 49%
Afflalo 2.2 Drives at 42%
Gallo   1.3 Drives at 48%
Grant   3.5 Drives at 46%

I expect that Rose will find it a bit easier to get driving lanes under Hornacek. He has a very unique focus on creating the space his guards need. Now he has the talent on the Knicks to really create that space with Melo, KP and Lee out there and particularly when they go with KP at Center and add another scorer in place of Noah.

There's more to the game than just drives though. If you take his overall #s (6.8 out of 15.9 shots a game) and subtract the drives (2.8 out of 5.5), apparently he shot .385 on non-drives, and that's twice as many attempts as his drives. You could say that will be better next year too, but it needs to be A LOT better. Or hopefully it will be a much lower number. I don't want a player shooting over ten times a game from spots where he hits at less than 39% of the time.

Just for clarity, a lot of the poor shooting last year came from his issues early on with his eyes. He had better shooting after his rough start and I believe he'll come into the season better than last year when he had vision problems. It's not that hard to believe he could come in with better conditioning and sharper shooting than he did last year with the Eye injury.

Month	 GP	MIN	FGM	FGA	FG%	3PM	3PA	3P%	FTM	FTA	FT%
October	 3	32.1	5.7 	15.3 	37.0	0.0	1.3	0.0	2.3	3.0	77.8
November 10	32.7	5.4 	15.3 	35.3	0.6	2.6	23.1	1.9	2.4	79.2
December 14	32.9	6.4 	15.4 	41.4	0.7	2.5	28.6	1.9	2.8	66.7
January	 13	30.4	7.4 	15.7 	47.1	0.5	1.8	29.2	2.3	2.4	96.8
February 8	33.1	8.5 	19.4 	43.9	0.8	2.4	31.6	4.1	4.9	84.6
March	 15	30.0	7.1 	15.3 	46.1	1.0	2.5	40.5	1.5	2.1	71.0
April	 3	34.3	5.7 	15.0 	37.8	0.0	1.7	0.0	1.7	2.0	83.3