joec32033 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

VCoug wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

VCoug wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

VCoug wrote:

nixluva wrote:

VCoug wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:It's like I wrote this article or something.

His concerns are my concerns. Instead of sitting put and filling out the roster with filler, we're about to ruin our cap for next year. Instead of 60-65m to sign 2 max studs, we can only offer 1.

Today proved players are willing to jump ship if the money and opportunity presented itself.

Shame we're going in another direction.

Yep, exactly what I have been trying to say as well. We wasted our assets for a middling second round exit team. Unless of course like the author suggests we are competing for the 2012 conference finals in which case success is assured.

2nd round exit is pretty generous. Barring anything unexpected happening, like us signing a good player, or Porzingis making the leap to superstardom I think there's a really good chance that we don't make the playoffs. In fact, based on what's expected to happen with the rest of free agency I almost expect us to be worse than last season.

What is it about this team that makes you think they won't make the playoffs? I haven't seen anyone that has suggested that poor of an outcome.

Derrick Rose is so bad he might actually be a downgrade from Calderon who's also awful. And I don't know who our backup is going to be but I don't have high hopes. Noah is, at best, a lateral move from Lopez; whatever improvement we'll get to our defense he'll subtract equally from our offense. And Noah will almost certainly get injured.

Yeah, there's more upside now but there's a high chance that the team is actually worse than before these acquisitions.

Wores than a 32 win team?

Possibly but that's not what I was arguing. With Grant and KP, I think the same roster would have won more games next year (maybe 38). So let's say I think there's a good chance the team does worse than that.

Ok. It happens. We get a lotto pick and have at least 36 million to spend in free agency. With guys like Westbrook and Curry on the market instead of Mike Conley. A losing season would suck but it would be a quick but seamless shift.

I'm sure Westbrook and Curry would be dying to come to a team that's been in the lottery for 4 straight seasons at that point.

So you are saying it is better to win now?

Sure, but that's not going to happen.

So you think we had a better chance to win with Calderon/Grant/Lopez than a Rose/Noah/Lee (Gordon) combo? I sure dont.

No, I think we need to do a legit rebuild and *eventually* the top FAs will want to come here. The shortcut starphucks don't work. There was no way a .390 team in 12 months could be so appealing that guys with unlimited options would want to come here.

I get that but people were killing Phil for colllecting all these young players and no stars remember? Ideally yes, a traditional rebuild is ideal but this team has been so bad for so long, 16 years now, and Phil was so far behind the 8 ball when he got hired i dont think there is the option of signing on for another 5 years of bad basketball just to build a base.

I think these "shortcut starphucks" are based on perspective of expectation. I know i dont expect Rose to be MVP Rose, but give me Mike Conley level numbers, I'm ok. Noah does need to be DPOY Noah, but give me 8 and 9 and that passing out of the post and some solid D and Im good.

Bonn1997 wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

VCoug wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

VCoug wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

VCoug wrote:

nixluva wrote:

VCoug wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:It's like I wrote this article or something.

His concerns are my concerns. Instead of sitting put and filling out the roster with filler, we're about to ruin our cap for next year. Instead of 60-65m to sign 2 max studs, we can only offer 1.

Today proved players are willing to jump ship if the money and opportunity presented itself.

Shame we're going in another direction.

Yep, exactly what I have been trying to say as well. We wasted our assets for a middling second round exit team. Unless of course like the author suggests we are competing for the 2012 conference finals in which case success is assured.

2nd round exit is pretty generous. Barring anything unexpected happening, like us signing a good player, or Porzingis making the leap to superstardom I think there's a really good chance that we don't make the playoffs. In fact, based on what's expected to happen with the rest of free agency I almost expect us to be worse than last season.

What is it about this team that makes you think they won't make the playoffs? I haven't seen anyone that has suggested that poor of an outcome.

Derrick Rose is so bad he might actually be a downgrade from Calderon who's also awful. And I don't know who our backup is going to be but I don't have high hopes. Noah is, at best, a lateral move from Lopez; whatever improvement we'll get to our defense he'll subtract equally from our offense. And Noah will almost certainly get injured.

Yeah, there's more upside now but there's a high chance that the team is actually worse than before these acquisitions.

Wores than a 32 win team?

Possibly but that's not what I was arguing. With Grant and KP, I think the same roster would have won more games next year (maybe 38). So let's say I think there's a good chance the team does worse than that.

Ok. It happens. We get a lotto pick and have at least 36 million to spend in free agency. With guys like Westbrook and Curry on the market instead of Mike Conley. A losing season would suck but it would be a quick but seamless shift.

I'm sure Westbrook and Curry would be dying to come to a team that's been in the lottery for 4 straight seasons at that point.

So you are saying it is better to win now?

Sure, but that's not going to happen.

So you think we had a better chance to win with Calderon/Grant/Lopez than a Rose/Noah/Lee (Gordon) combo? I sure dont.

No, I think we need to do a legit rebuild and *eventually* the top FAs will want to come here. The shortcut starphucks don't work. There was no way a .390 team in 12 months could be so appealing that guys with unlimited options would want to come here.

"Legit rebuilding" has become this mythical concept, this utopia that sounds and feels so perfect, yet nobody has actually seen it nor ripped benefits from it. Instead, we get teams mired in years of putrid records, getting the irresistible draft picks that turn up to be less impactful players than the draft hype stated. And when the awaited free agent superstars have a chance to sign, they actually remain with their own team or sign with a team closer to win a championship. But its still such an irresistibly delicious proposition, no fan can resist pouting year after year about how their own team should go this "perfect route".

Bonn1997 wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

VCoug wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

VCoug wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

VCoug wrote:

nixluva wrote:

VCoug wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:It's like I wrote this article or something.

His concerns are my concerns. Instead of sitting put and filling out the roster with filler, we're about to ruin our cap for next year. Instead of 60-65m to sign 2 max studs, we can only offer 1.

Today proved players are willing to jump ship if the money and opportunity presented itself.

Shame we're going in another direction.

Yep, exactly what I have been trying to say as well. We wasted our assets for a middling second round exit team. Unless of course like the author suggests we are competing for the 2012 conference finals in which case success is assured.

2nd round exit is pretty generous. Barring anything unexpected happening, like us signing a good player, or Porzingis making the leap to superstardom I think there's a really good chance that we don't make the playoffs. In fact, based on what's expected to happen with the rest of free agency I almost expect us to be worse than last season.

What is it about this team that makes you think they won't make the playoffs? I haven't seen anyone that has suggested that poor of an outcome.

Derrick Rose is so bad he might actually be a downgrade from Calderon who's also awful. And I don't know who our backup is going to be but I don't have high hopes. Noah is, at best, a lateral move from Lopez; whatever improvement we'll get to our defense he'll subtract equally from our offense. And Noah will almost certainly get injured.

Yeah, there's more upside now but there's a high chance that the team is actually worse than before these acquisitions.

Wores than a 32 win team?

Possibly but that's not what I was arguing. With Grant and KP, I think the same roster would have won more games next year (maybe 38). So let's say I think there's a good chance the team does worse than that.

Ok. It happens. We get a lotto pick and have at least 36 million to spend in free agency. With guys like Westbrook and Curry on the market instead of Mike Conley. A losing season would suck but it would be a quick but seamless shift.

I'm sure Westbrook and Curry would be dying to come to a team that's been in the lottery for 4 straight seasons at that point.

So you are saying it is better to win now?

Sure, but that's not going to happen.

So you think we had a better chance to win with Calderon/Grant/Lopez than a Rose/Noah/Lee (Gordon) combo? I sure dont.

No, I think we need to do a legit rebuild and *eventually* the top FAs will want to come here. The shortcut starphucks don't work. There was no way a .390 team in 12 months could be so appealing that guys with unlimited options would want to come here.

I get that but people were killing Phil for colllecting all these young players and no stars remember? Ideally yes, a traditional rebuild is ideal but this team has been so bad for so long, 16 years now, and Phil was so far behind the 8 ball when he got hired i dont think there is the option of signing on for another 5 years of bad basketball just to build a base.

I think these "shortcut starphucks" are based on perspective of expectation. I know i dont expect Rose to be MVP Rose, but give me Mike Conley level numbers, I'm ok. Noah does need to be DPOY Noah, but give me 8 and 9 and that passing out of the post and some solid D and Im good.

I get that but I think there's a high chance this team is bad AND isn't building a base, though. This looks closer to a "now" approach than a "win now" approach. If we were trying to win now rather than rebuild but we were acquiring players on an upward trajectory, I'd get behind that.

I think we are trying to get back to even. Phil came in well behind the 8 ball. Did anyone expect him to really do anything that first 2 years? Everyone says he didnt get Aldridge and points fingers, but then turns around and says major guys wont come to losing teams. The team was losing before Phil.

This win now approach still has youth in the pipeline in Porzingis, Lance, to a lesser degree Langston and Hernangomez, Williams to a degree if he comes back plus Phil isnt trading draft picks...How much youth do we need?

meloshouldgo wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

VCoug wrote:

nixluva wrote:

VCoug wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:It's like I wrote this article or something.

His concerns are my concerns. Instead of sitting put and filling out the roster with filler, we're about to ruin our cap for next year. Instead of 60-65m to sign 2 max studs, we can only offer 1.

Today proved players are willing to jump ship if the money and opportunity presented itself.

Shame we're going in another direction.

Yep, exactly what I have been trying to say as well. We wasted our assets for a middling second round exit team. Unless of course like the author suggests we are competing for the 2012 conference finals in which case success is assured.

2nd round exit is pretty generous. Barring anything unexpected happening, like us signing a good player, or Porzingis making the leap to superstardom I think there's a really good chance that we don't make the playoffs. In fact, based on what's expected to happen with the rest of free agency I almost expect us to be worse than last season.

What is it about this team that makes you think they won't make the playoffs? I haven't seen anyone that has suggested that poor of an outcome.

Derrick Rose is so bad he might actually be a downgrade from Calderon who's also awful. And I don't know who our backup is going to be but I don't have high hopes. Noah is, at best, a lateral move from Lopez; whatever improvement we'll get to our defense he'll subtract equally from our offense. And Noah will almost certainly get injured.

Yeah, there's more upside now but there's a high chance that the team is actually worse than before these acquisitions.

Wores than a 32 win team?

Possibly but that's not what I was arguing. With Grant and KP, I think the same roster would have won more games next year (maybe 38). So let's say I think there's a good chance the team does worse than that.

Ok. It happens. We get a lotto pick and have at least 36 million to spend in free agency. With guys like Westbrook and Curry on the market instead of Mike Conley. A losing season would suck but it would be a quick but seamless shift.

Yes the same tired arguments used to kick the can down the road. We had more in cap space now and Durant as the top name in the market. How did that work out? But this will be different next year after another 35-42 win season because Phil is playing chess. Unrealistic

Who got Durant? More than likely 85% of the big free agents are heading back to their team. It isnt about kicking the can down the road. It is about having the flexibility to give you the chance to secure the best talent.

ChuckBuck wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

VCoug wrote:

nixluva wrote:

VCoug wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:It's like I wrote this article or something.

His concerns are my concerns. Instead of sitting put and filling out the roster with filler, we're about to ruin our cap for next year. Instead of 60-65m to sign 2 max studs, we can only offer 1.

Today proved players are willing to jump ship if the money and opportunity presented itself.

Shame we're going in another direction.

Yep, exactly what I have been trying to say as well. We wasted our assets for a middling second round exit team. Unless of course like the author suggests we are competing for the 2012 conference finals in which case success is assured.

2nd round exit is pretty generous. Barring anything unexpected happening, like us signing a good player, or Porzingis making the leap to superstardom I think there's a really good chance that we don't make the playoffs. In fact, based on what's expected to happen with the rest of free agency I almost expect us to be worse than last season.

What is it about this team that makes you think they won't make the playoffs? I haven't seen anyone that has suggested that poor of an outcome.

Derrick Rose is so bad he might actually be a downgrade from Calderon who's also awful. And I don't know who our backup is going to be but I don't have high hopes. Noah is, at best, a lateral move from Lopez; whatever improvement we'll get to our defense he'll subtract equally from our offense. And Noah will almost certainly get injured.

Yeah, there's more upside now but there's a high chance that the team is actually worse than before these acquisitions.

Wores than a 32 win team?

If the basketball gods strike us with injury to all our major players simultaneously, it can absolutely happen.

Then lottery.

Boom.

meloshouldgo wrote:OK maybe we don't have a disagreement then. My default position is that you can't please everyone, and I hope Phil isn't trying to do that.I want him to do what I think is right, just like everyone else, But most people don't agree in what is right.So the argument that Phil should do this because everyone would accuse him otherwise is weak in my opinion.

There are many dofferent roads that will get you to the same place. There is no right or wrong way to build/rebuild. I think to start to build/rebuild requires a bunch of different things...financial flexibility, strategical flexibility, several planned avenues to get to your goal, a willingness to take a step back to take 3 steps forward, long term as well as short range planning, luck, in this market thick skin....

Knicksfan wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

VCoug wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

VCoug wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

VCoug wrote:

nixluva wrote:

VCoug wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:It's like I wrote this article or something.

His concerns are my concerns. Instead of sitting put and filling out the roster with filler, we're about to ruin our cap for next year. Instead of 60-65m to sign 2 max studs, we can only offer 1.

Today proved players are willing to jump ship if the money and opportunity presented itself.

Shame we're going in another direction.

Yep, exactly what I have been trying to say as well. We wasted our assets for a middling second round exit team. Unless of course like the author suggests we are competing for the 2012 conference finals in which case success is assured.

2nd round exit is pretty generous. Barring anything unexpected happening, like us signing a good player, or Porzingis making the leap to superstardom I think there's a really good chance that we don't make the playoffs. In fact, based on what's expected to happen with the rest of free agency I almost expect us to be worse than last season.

What is it about this team that makes you think they won't make the playoffs? I haven't seen anyone that has suggested that poor of an outcome.

Derrick Rose is so bad he might actually be a downgrade from Calderon who's also awful. And I don't know who our backup is going to be but I don't have high hopes. Noah is, at best, a lateral move from Lopez; whatever improvement we'll get to our defense he'll subtract equally from our offense. And Noah will almost certainly get injured.

Yeah, there's more upside now but there's a high chance that the team is actually worse than before these acquisitions.

Wores than a 32 win team?

Possibly but that's not what I was arguing. With Grant and KP, I think the same roster would have won more games next year (maybe 38). So let's say I think there's a good chance the team does worse than that.

Ok. It happens. We get a lotto pick and have at least 36 million to spend in free agency. With guys like Westbrook and Curry on the market instead of Mike Conley. A losing season would suck but it would be a quick but seamless shift.

I'm sure Westbrook and Curry would be dying to come to a team that's been in the lottery for 4 straight seasons at that point.

So you are saying it is better to win now?

Sure, but that's not going to happen.

So you think we had a better chance to win with Calderon/Grant/Lopez than a Rose/Noah/Lee (Gordon) combo? I sure dont.

No, I think we need to do a legit rebuild and *eventually* the top FAs will want to come here. The shortcut starphucks don't work. There was no way a .390 team in 12 months could be so appealing that guys with unlimited options would want to come here.

"Legit rebuilding" has become this mythical concept, this utopia that sounds and feels so perfect, yet nobody has actually seen it nor ripped benefits from it. Instead, we get teams mired in years of putrid records, getting the irresistible draft picks that turn up to be less impactful players than the draft hype stated. And when the awaited free agent superstars have a chance to sign, they actually remain with their own team or sign with a team closer to win a championship. But its still such an irresistibly delicious proposition, no fan can resist pouting year after year about how their own team should go this "perfect route".

-You want the probabilities in your favor for every decision
-Players tend to have a sharp decline by their late 20s and early 30s
-The best teams are ones that have players playing on bargain contracts
-Recent past player performance is a good predictor of future performance
-Inefficient volume scoring is either unhelpful or only slightly helpful - it's generally overvalued
-Shots close to the basket and 3 pointers (especially corner 3s) have the most value. Contested mid-range jumpers with lots of time on the clock are a bad idea.

We could add much more but it doesn't look like the Knicks are stacking the probabilities in their favor. It looks like they're ignoring what the metrics experts have learned from past 20 years. If we have so much money, we should be trying to steal off some of the people from the Spurs, Warriors, and other top teams' metrics departments, and Phil and Dolan should discuss thoroughly every decision with them.

Knickoftime wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:-You want the probabilities in your favor for every decision

Not for nothing, but probabilities are never in your favor in professional sports.

I think you mean to say you want to pursue the relatively more favorable probabilities.

-Players tend to have a sharp decline by their late 20s and early 30s

I am not refuting this. I'd like to see the empirical support of this to see how significant the decline is.

Can you help?

-The best teams are ones that have players playing on bargain contracts

That would not describe the Cleveland Cavaliers. Just sayin'.

Uptown wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:OK maybe we don't have a disagreement then. My default position is that you can't please everyone, and I hope Phil isn't trying to do that.I want him to do what I think is right, just like everyone else, But most people don't agree in what is right.So the argument that Phil should do this because everyone would accuse him otherwise is weak in my opinion.

The bolded is the thought process of many posters....If the organization doesn't sign the players I want for the money I say and build the team the way I see fit, then its wrong....

When in your lifetime have you ever seen the Knicks in full rebuild mode? The Knicks have always tried to lure the big Free agents (Alan Houston, not to mention the countless players who turned us down), taking Risky players (Sprewell, Bernard King,) injured players (Larry Johnson) and traded away home grown youth (Strickland, Jackson, etc). I'm not saying its the absolute right way, but its the Knicks way since I was a fan.

Please don't put words in my mouth that I didn't say. It's not about being right it's about having a long teeth aprroach or doing the same **** we did during the last twenty years. Don't ask when the Knicks did a full rebuild. Ask yourself when was the last time Knicks had real success with dumb starfukking?

nixluva wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Uptown wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:OK maybe we don't have a disagreement then. My default position is that you can't please everyone, and I hope Phil isn't trying to do that.I want him to do what I think is right, just like everyone else, But most people don't agree in what is right.So the argument that Phil should do this because everyone would accuse him otherwise is weak in my opinion.

The bolded is the thought process of many posters....If the organization doesn't sign the players I want for the money I say and build the team the way I see fit, then its wrong....

When in your lifetime have you ever seen the Knicks in full rebuild mode? The Knicks have always tried to lure the big Free agents (Alan Houston, not to mention the countless players who turned us down), taking Risky players (Sprewell, Bernard King,) injured players (Larry Johnson) and traded away home grown youth (Strickland, Jackson, etc). I'm not saying its the absolute right way, but its the Knicks way since I was a fan.

Please don't put words in my mouth that I didn't say. It's not about being right it's about having a long teeth aprroach or doing the same **** we did during the last twenty years. Don't ask when the Knicks did a full rebuild. Ask yourself when was the last time Knicks had real success with dumb starfukking?

I think you're assessment of what Phil is doing is WAY off. He's not just collecting names as you seem to be suggesting. He's looking at what these players offer the team in the way of winning games. Noah is a winning player. He promotes TEAM play and has the right attitude about how to play. It's not just a guy collecting players. He's collecting skillsets and intangibles that he believes will lead to winning. He's a MUCH deeper thinker than you're giving him credit for. Maybe in the past Knicks GM's have got starry eyed but that's not really how Phil thinks. Just go read anything he's written or has been written about his process and you'll see exactly what I mean.

Yes Noah is a very good player and I have said multiple times I like his style of play. But he does injure himself quite often and no amount of lip service to the Knicks organization and reading books on Phil will make that go away. Rose is poor defender as is Melo, so all this great basketball understanding had so far yielded 4 starters and two of them are questionable defenders and that's being generous. Melo and Rose both need the ball and we have no idea yet if given their history of injury(Rose) and precedence for half court bully ball (Melo) can combine effectively in a motion offense. We still have no consistent outside shooting our promoter defense to speak of. We don't have any guards on the bench, except a undrafted rookie and we have gaping holes if one of these old gimpy guys go down for a few games which will inevitably happen.

meloshouldgo wrote:

nixluva wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Uptown wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:OK maybe we don't have a disagreement then. My default position is that you can't please everyone, and I hope Phil isn't trying to do that.I want him to do what I think is right, just like everyone else, But most people don't agree in what is right.So the argument that Phil should do this because everyone would accuse him otherwise is weak in my opinion.

The bolded is the thought process of many posters....If the organization doesn't sign the players I want for the money I say and build the team the way I see fit, then its wrong....

When in your lifetime have you ever seen the Knicks in full rebuild mode? The Knicks have always tried to lure the big Free agents (Alan Houston, not to mention the countless players who turned us down), taking Risky players (Sprewell, Bernard King,) injured players (Larry Johnson) and traded away home grown youth (Strickland, Jackson, etc). I'm not saying its the absolute right way, but its the Knicks way since I was a fan.

Please don't put words in my mouth that I didn't say. It's not about being right it's about having a long teeth aprroach or doing the same **** we did during the last twenty years. Don't ask when the Knicks did a full rebuild. Ask yourself when was the last time Knicks had real success with dumb starfukking?

I think you're assessment of what Phil is doing is WAY off. He's not just collecting names as you seem to be suggesting. He's looking at what these players offer the team in the way of winning games. Noah is a winning player. He promotes TEAM play and has the right attitude about how to play. It's not just a guy collecting players. He's collecting skillsets and intangibles that he believes will lead to winning. He's a MUCH deeper thinker than you're giving him credit for. Maybe in the past Knicks GM's have got starry eyed but that's not really how Phil thinks. Just go read anything he's written or has been written about his process and you'll see exactly what I mean.

Yes Noah is a very good player and I have said multiple times I like his style of play. But he does injure himself quite often and no amount of lip service to the Knicks organization and reading books on Phil will make that go away. Rose is poor defender as is Melo, so all this great basketball understanding had so far yielded 4 starters and two of them are questionable defenders and that's being generous. Melo and Rose both need the ball and we have no idea yet if given their history of injury(Rose) and precedence for half court bully ball (Melo) can combine effectively in a motion offense. We still have no consistent outside shooting our promoter defense to speak of. We don't have any guards on the bench, except a undrafted rookie and we have gaping holes if one of these old gimpy guys go down for a few games which will inevitably happen.

Obviously there are holes still left to be filled. Also no one is suggesting this team is perfect. I could go down a list like this for the Cavs too. It's very hard to man a team full of perfect players. In the end this team will be better than the one we had last year. We're starting off already with more capabilities.

I agree this team lacks enough Shooting. It's currently a severe hole. Hopefully Phil will be able to address that need. He's clearly making every effort to solve this problem.