ekstarks94 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

ekstarks94 wrote:Facts...baby....show me something...

You are the historian....lay out the catalog

Ummm, I already did.

https://web.archive.org/web/20101125193336/http://hoopshype.com/salaries/new_york.htm

$58m - $42,469,302 - $916,100 (Bill Walker's team option) + $1,680,360 (Imam Shumpert's #17 rookie slot) + $427,500 (minimum roster hold)= $14,338,938.

Melo made $17,149,243 in the 2010-2011 season under the final year of his Nuggets deal. The maximum salary for a 7-9 year player in 2011-2012 was $15,506,632 ... OR ... 105% of a player's previous salary, whichever is greater. Which means Melo's maximum was $18m + change even on a new contract with a new team, without the benefit of an extension of his existing contract and the extra year and the better raises.

So I'll ask again, find me $18m+. Because the Knicks only had $14.3m.

the link you sent me has the 42 mill all in. That leaves 16 mill add in shump ..cut billy walker and move Gallo for a pick....that gives you 18 mill .....any cap gymnastics at that point.would be minimal....that is why I said it is common knowledge that the Knicks could sign Melo outright....granted...I will give you there had to be some movement of small salaries but it is not like giving up a 1st round pick to move several mill....

Gallo was going....regardless the issue. Is that instead of trading him for Melo we could have gotten another asset in addition of Melo instead of Denvers trash...

Yes, if you swamp out Gallinari for Chandler/Mozgov is you so chose.

I've been very clear on this point. All I've said was the Knicks could not sign Melo in the offseason while retaining all the semi-useful players on their roster. Some of the young Gallo-WC-Mos trio had to go on way or another.

Ironic, as anyone who actually recalls that year will tell you, up until February the NBA media was convinced the knicks didn't have the "assets" to make a deal, considering they couldn't deal their 2011, 12 or 13 picks. Then the deal was made the some Knicks fan (who didn't understand the cap implications) became convinced they have up too much.

I understand there are some segments of fans who prefer the version of events that if the Knicks like many, many other NBA, MLB and NHL teams didn't make a deadline trade to ALSO advance their position for THAT postseason, that things would be much different today, and I'm not sure the facts bear out that version of events.

Billups was also not an insignificant inclusion at the time, and his larger salary slot and the new CBA allowed the Knicks to convert him into T. Chandler and the KNicks wound up putting a pretty good team on the floor that year.

It didn't work out long-term and that's what happens a LOT in professional sports, but anyone clinging to the idea the Knicks future was definitively better if they went into 2011-2012 with Raymond Felton as their point guard, Turiaf and second year Mosgov as their centers and W. Chandler backing up Melo, I don't know what to tell you.

That is the point....you we would have our assets and could built the team around Melo and stat and start from a better position than the trade we did....like it was mentioned earlier Dolan got cold feet thinking that he may miss out and we got raked on this trade..

That's never been anything more than a fan theory.

No theory's here...assets make deals....or at least get's you a seat at the conversation table and then you negotiate from there.

Knickoftime wrote:

ekstarks94 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

ekstarks94 wrote:Facts...baby....show me something...

You are the historian....lay out the catalog

Ummm, I already did.

https://web.archive.org/web/20101125193336/http://hoopshype.com/salaries/new_york.htm

$58m - $42,469,302 - $916,100 (Bill Walker's team option) + $1,680,360 (Imam Shumpert's #17 rookie slot) + $427,500 (minimum roster hold)= $14,338,938.

Melo made $17,149,243 in the 2010-2011 season under the final year of his Nuggets deal. The maximum salary for a 7-9 year player in 2011-2012 was $15,506,632 ... OR ... 105% of a player's previous salary, whichever is greater. Which means Melo's maximum was $18m + change even on a new contract with a new team, without the benefit of an extension of his existing contract and the extra year and the better raises.

So I'll ask again, find me $18m+. Because the Knicks only had $14.3m.

the link you sent me has the 42 mill all in. That leaves 16 mill add in shump ..cut billy walker and move Gallo for a pick....that gives you 18 mill .....any cap gymnastics at that point.would be minimal....that is why I said it is common knowledge that the Knicks could sign Melo outright....granted...I will give you there had to be some movement of small salaries but it is not like giving up a 1st round pick to move several mill....

Gallo was going....regardless the issue. Is that instead of trading him for Melo we could have gotten another asset in addition of Melo instead of Denvers trash...

Yes, if you swamp out Gallinari for Chandler/Mozgov is you so chose.

I've been very clear on this point. All I've said was the Knicks could not sign Melo in the offseason while retaining all the semi-useful players on their roster. Some of the young Gallo-WC-Mos trio had to go on way or another.

Ironic, as anyone who actually recalls that year will tell you, up until February the NBA media was convinced the knicks didn't have the "assets" to make a deal, considering they couldn't deal their 2011, 12 or 13 picks. Then the deal was made the some Knicks fan (who didn't understand the cap implications) became convinced they have up too much.

I understand there are some segments of fans who prefer the version of events that if the Knicks like many, many other NBA, MLB and NHL teams didn't make a deadline trade to ALSO advance their position for THAT postseason, that things would be much different today, and I'm not sure the facts bear out that version of events.

Billups was also not an insignificant inclusion at the time, and his larger salary slot and the new CBA allowed the Knicks to convert him into T. Chandler and the KNicks wound up putting a pretty good team on the floor that year.

It didn't work out long-term and that's what happens a LOT in professional sports, but anyone clinging to the idea the Knicks future was definitively better if they went into 2011-2012 with Raymond Felton as their point guard, Turiaf and second year Mosgov as their centers and W. Chandler backing up Melo, I don't know what to tell you.

That is the point....you we would have our assets and could built the team around Melo and stat and start from a better position than the trade we did....like it was mentioned earlier Dolan got cold feet thinking that he may miss out and we got raked on this trade..

That's never been anything more than a fan theory.

Knickoftime wrote:

ekstarks94 wrote:Point of today's NBA is not only hoarding talent but assets....assets gets deal done....I agree we were not in pole position to get a deal done. But Melo said he was coming to the Knicks or Nets....so our assets which was not the best offer was the best they could get and they raked us over the coals.....

No theory's here...assets make deals....or at least get's you a seat at the conversation table and then you negotiate from there.

The "dolan" got cold feet is the theory i was referring to.

I'll reiterate my point. The Knicks would have had to diversify "assets" in any version of them acquiring Melo. Because cap space is a cost and someone you have to cash in an asset to offset a cost.

That's simply math.

The Melo trade vs free agency was NEVER 'lots of assets spent' vs. 'no assets spent at all'. That continues to be a fallacy people cling to.

Less so, the entire premise lies entirely in vague theory that a couple of additional undefined "assets" would have any pragmatic difference today. And it's simply that, just a vague, preferred theory having little empirical value.

But it sure feeds the melo hate mongers, doesn't it?

Like PP is so much greater and clutch than Melo.
Like Melo is a team cancer.
Like Melo drove our boy Linny away.
Like Melo played with JKidd so he should have won a chip that year.

and any other number of "preferred theories" that have only "a casual, platonic relationship with reality" (Copyright KOT LLC, 2016)

Knickoftime wrote:

ekstarks94 wrote:The point is that Riley had a plan....remember there were reports at the time that DWade had meetings with Chicago....Riley created the environment for the big 3...not just what he did in 2010 but leading up to it....DWade won a chip under Riley...without the Shaquille trade that doesn't happen..Riley had a longstanding foundation for the big 3 to build on....what we had was instability

I can only respond to you words, not what they mean in your head.

Knickoftime wrote:In the OP you presented Riley as having fast-talked James into a bad deal. It just doesn't reflect what actually happened. I'm not saying Riley didn't have a role in the Big 3. Of course he did.

But he did NOT smooth-talk James into coming to Miami, in contrast to a clumsy effort by the Knick, which was the picture you were trying to paint. That is simply embellishment, which was the point of my initial reply.

Yes mortgaging the future is a tired line....but that does not make it inaccurate....if Melo waited and we kept our assets and signed outright things would probably be very different....

How?

What team do you imagine would have taken the floor that next year? I'm assuming your recall is accurate enough to know the Knicks weren't projected to have the cap space needed to sign him outright if they still had the roster they had at the time of the trade.

Hey KOT....read below.

When LeBron James and associates, namely agent Maverick Carter, rolled into MSG during Decision Week in 2010, they wanted to get more information on what the Knicks had planned for him. They were intrigued enough following their initial meeting to hear more.

Early that week, James was far from making a decision and wanted to hear more. He wanted an offer because he knew he wasn't returning to Cleveland. This meeting was the follow up to the Knicks' initial presentation, one that failed to convince James on coming to New York after teams first made their pitches to James in downtown Cleveland.

With Amar'e Stoudemire in tow with the Knicks, James began to think of how they could prepare a superteam, one that also included Chris Paul, then with New Orleans. James felt the combination of the three would rule the Eastern Conference and that the team could build around them moving forward.

LeBron and his ClevelandCavaliers had just been spurned by Stoudemire at the trade deadline, as Stoudemire wanted to keep all of his options open come summer and wouldn't commit to the Cavs long-term despite their best efforts to deal for him and make a major run at a championship.

Another big reason Stoudemire wouldn't commit, I had been told then, was because neither would James. Amar'e didn't see himself wanting to be in Cleveland long-term if James was going to take his talents elsewhere.

Enter the Miami Heat and Pat Riley, who would ultimately convince King James he could mold the superteam for the upcoming 2010-11 season and not a season later like the Knicks, who had to wait to unload the albatross of the Eddy Curry contract from their roster.

Riley, the mastermind and architect (with the help of Alonzo Mourning's emotional speech) was able to convince Chris Bosh to take less money thus allowing for Dwyane Wade, Bosh and James to land on one roster. Bosh needed to be convinced in a major way. Once he was, that left Stoudemire in New York with Carmelo Anthony, not Paul, to come to his side.

And Riley, more than the other three, was an opportunist — he never stopped looking for a better situation or another advantage. Riley was blessed with Popovich’s attention to culture and Jackson’s savviness for aligning with special players, but really, the dude has been more Auerbachian than he’d ever admit. We remember Auerbach as an insane competitor who never stopped looking for the next edge. Sound familiar? Once upon a time, Riley despised Auerbach’s Celtics so much that, during one mid-’80s practice at Boston Garden, he asked his trainer to dump the Lakers’ water barrel because he actually feared Auerbach had tried to poison it. But Auerbach is the only other NBA executive in 70 years, dead or alive, who could have pulled off LeBron and Bosh in the summer of 2010. Nobody else had enough foresight or charisma. It’s two people and two people only. – via The Ringer

I agree the hoopshype article is one man's take of the situation, but what it does propagate is the belief that although Wade was the reason the drink was poured Riley was the straw that stirred the mojito. Provided the Waterford crystal and the little umbrella for the big three, replace Riley with Donnie Walsh, that deal does not get done. Period.

Wade fetched the deal...Riley closed it. You give players too much value in this transaction...Yes they are an integral part...they are the reason other players folk to one place or another as free agents, but without competent mgmt, solid org, nothing....I mean nothing gets done inless it is a money grab...which it was for Stat when he came....Yes, I am sure he wanted the bright lights of NY, but if we gave him $70 instead of $100 million of Dolan's dollars...he would have stayed in PHX

Right Now Melo is talking to Durant right now..... do you expect Melo to close on that deal??? Even if Durant has his mind made up to leave OKC and NY is one of the many on the list...Phil is closing that ticket. You are not sending Stevey Mills or Houston....Phil is the guy.

You make it seem that they could have had a cardboard cut out of Riley or whoever but James was going anyway and I have not read one article that is not conjecture that supports that assumption.

He had to max Bosh...LeBron bolting.....all his eggs were in the Lebron basket...Cap space for role players(Luol, Green, etc.) was already spent...when the heat rebuilds is when Riley will retire....

Ask anyone ont his forum....even put up a damn poll.....would folks choose to have Riley have stayed and win the power struggle with Checkkets or go.....

My point is that you have a 100s in some case thousands of people that make up a company, but without a CEO their just thousands of workers....with a CEO they are "THE STAFF".....Riley called the shots....no question...Im sure CAA had a plan, but Riley did not let them just have run of the place.....

ekstarks94 wrote:I understand your perspective...what I'm saying is that you are giving too much credit to everyone else except the one person that this scenario does not happen if he is not there....Riley.

Not for nothing, but the scenario does not happen without each of James and Wade and Bosh individually and James and Wade and Bosh as a group.

To define him as "the one person" this all relied on is overlooking the patently obvious.

Is Pat Riley the ONE other person the scenario needed besides the other 3?

Okay, cool.

Is Pat Riley the ONLY NBA executive that could have pulled that off purely by the unique power of his will and intellect.

My answer is I have no freakin' idea, have no inclination to ponder it and is so hopelessly subjective arguing it is pointless.

I'm just not that impressed.

But that's just me.

ekstarks94 wrote:Agree to disagree....not saying Riley is the only executive, but he is the executive that we are questioning and if you replace him with many of the executives that were in their roles at the time back in 2010, maybe more than 90% could not get a deal like that done. Who is going to sell them one taking a haircut of $$$ over the chance for a chip...Wade...I don't think so....who says if you do we'll take care of you on the back end....players may dictate movement but if the executive shuts the door guess what...next stop....Dwight wants to come here...unless Phil gets desperate or something else is going on....that door is shut.

As I say, this is hopelessly subjective. I remember 2010 and the years-long build up to it well.

Riley didn't invent the idea of the super-team. Fans were on top of the premise LONG before, with many Knicks speculating that James would take a discount in order to have a team around whatever big 2 or 3 he joined. I know that for a fact because I remember certain fans rejecting the idea that would ever happen. The point is, it was conceived of and in fact, the idea was quite obvious.

More importantly, if James-Wade-Bosh were contemplating this for TEARS, they're intelligent men who had to have realized along with every message board fan posting dream scenarios that 3 max contracts would make it almost impossible to have 2 to 9 more warm bodies around them.

They HAD to have already considered that going into 2010, so how much you want to purely imagine Riley had to talk them into it is likely based on how much credit you're pre-inclined to WANT to give him.

I'm sure the players could figure out the sales tax thing and the Miami lifestyle in the dead of winter thing themselves too.

Hell, even clearing the cap space Riley did wasn't that impressive. You know the difference between Miami and NY in that regard? Here it is:

Michael Beasley was still very young and just a headcase but had physical gifts.

Eddy Curry was neither young, nor had any physical ability at that stage, was more expensive AND was a headcase too boot. If Knicks could have jettisoned Curry or 2010 happened a year later, they would have had even more space than Miami.

I just can't identify one extraordinary thing I know for certain Riley contributed.