BRIGGS wrote:

fishmike wrote:

smackeddog wrote:You missed this bit :

While Valentine doesn't look scared to mix things up on the glass, he's an extremely poor defender that needed to be hidden constantly at the college level in order to not emerge as a liability. While somewhat of a combo guard offensively, he's best suited guarding small forwards who don't have much in the way of ball-handling ability or explosiveness on the other end. His lateral quickness is very poor, he doesn't cover ground well, and his effort really comes and goes, as he often looks fairly lazy closing out on shooters or trying to keep his man in front. Valentine relies heavily on reaching and grabbing his man to try and slow him down, which simply will not work at the NBA level.

Another concern is his lack of burst offensively, as he often has a tough time turning the corner against better defenders in the half-court. His size, strength and ability to change speeds works to his advantage at the college level, but there are concerns about whether he'll be able to do the same against NBA-level defenders, where everyone is much bigger, longer, stronger and more athletic.

yea but everyone else already read it.

Watch some games lol

his season, Valentine is averaging 19.5 points, 7.7 rebounds and 7.1 assists per game, despite missing four games due to a knee injury midseason. He’s improved in every single offensive statistical category in each of his four years here. Defensively, he’s a completely different player than when he got to East Lansing, having taken the time to study opponents and learn how to defend them better. The Spartans consider him their best defender, confident enough in him to put him on any guard in the country.

i watched EVERY SINGLE ONE of his games and im still not impressed that he will make a significant impact at the next level. hes jared dudley with more of a pass first mentality

callmened wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

fishmike wrote:

smackeddog wrote:You missed this bit :

While Valentine doesn't look scared to mix things up on the glass, he's an extremely poor defender that needed to be hidden constantly at the college level in order to not emerge as a liability. While somewhat of a combo guard offensively, he's best suited guarding small forwards who don't have much in the way of ball-handling ability or explosiveness on the other end. His lateral quickness is very poor, he doesn't cover ground well, and his effort really comes and goes, as he often looks fairly lazy closing out on shooters or trying to keep his man in front. Valentine relies heavily on reaching and grabbing his man to try and slow him down, which simply will not work at the NBA level.

Another concern is his lack of burst offensively, as he often has a tough time turning the corner against better defenders in the half-court. His size, strength and ability to change speeds works to his advantage at the college level, but there are concerns about whether he'll be able to do the same against NBA-level defenders, where everyone is much bigger, longer, stronger and more athletic.

yea but everyone else already read it.

Watch some games lol

his season, Valentine is averaging 19.5 points, 7.7 rebounds and 7.1 assists per game, despite missing four games due to a knee injury midseason. He’s improved in every single offensive statistical category in each of his four years here. Defensively, he’s a completely different player than when he got to East Lansing, having taken the time to study opponents and learn how to defend them better. The Spartans consider him their best defender, confident enough in him to put him on any guard in the country.

i watched EVERY SINGLE ONE of his games and im still not impressed that he will make a significant impact at the next level. hes jared dudley with more of a pass first mentality

Jared Dudley was/is an impact player so a passing Jared Dudley would probably have significant impact. Hopefully, Denzel will not let himself go and ballon up to a PF as a he gets into his late 20s/early 30s like Dudley did. DV needs to get down to about 205 lbs of lean muscle then work his way back up to 215 lbs. I think he can be a good player if he has the work ethic then again he might be another MSU bust.

I think Dudley and Evan Turner are two good comparisons for Valentine except those two players are 1.75" taller than DV but he has the longer wingspan and probably reach(data thrown out this year). All three had a high body fat measurement: JD(7.1%/219 lbs), ET(8.6%/214lbs, and DV(9.1%/210. They all posted similar vert numbers too.Shooting wise Valentine is a lot like Dudley coming out improving his 3pt% every year except Valentine shot the 3 at a much higher volume his last year, 2.9 3PAs vs 7.5 3PAs, but the rest of Valentine's game is more similar to Evan. Turner avg 9.1 REBS and 6 AST but also avg 4.2 TOs. In comparison DV only avg 2.7 TOs and 7.1 ASTs like Briggs sighted above.

ALL in all I think Valentine would be a great pick up if he gets committed to turning his body around. Early on Dudley put in the worked and dropped a lot of weight that was dragging him down in college. If Valentine does the same that might help him keep up with players defensively and help his burst on offense to blow by defenders. I wished the knicks had the opportunity to get him.

callmened wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

fishmike wrote:

smackeddog wrote:You missed this bit :

While Valentine doesn't look scared to mix things up on the glass, he's an extremely poor defender that needed to be hidden constantly at the college level in order to not emerge as a liability. While somewhat of a combo guard offensively, he's best suited guarding small forwards who don't have much in the way of ball-handling ability or explosiveness on the other end. His lateral quickness is very poor, he doesn't cover ground well, and his effort really comes and goes, as he often looks fairly lazy closing out on shooters or trying to keep his man in front. Valentine relies heavily on reaching and grabbing his man to try and slow him down, which simply will not work at the NBA level.

Another concern is his lack of burst offensively, as he often has a tough time turning the corner against better defenders in the half-court. His size, strength and ability to change speeds works to his advantage at the college level, but there are concerns about whether he'll be able to do the same against NBA-level defenders, where everyone is much bigger, longer, stronger and more athletic.

yea but everyone else already read it.

Watch some games lol

his season, Valentine is averaging 19.5 points, 7.7 rebounds and 7.1 assists per game, despite missing four games due to a knee injury midseason. He’s improved in every single offensive statistical category in each of his four years here. Defensively, he’s a completely different player than when he got to East Lansing, having taken the time to study opponents and learn how to defend them better. The Spartans consider him their best defender, confident enough in him to put him on any guard in the country.

i watched EVERY SINGLE ONE of his games and im still not impressed that he will make a significant impact at the next level. hes jared dudley with more of a pass first mentality

I don't believe you. If you did, you wouldn't say that.

Valentine is extremely talented and I'm actually surprised he is not considered a lottery pick. IMO, when its all said and done, he will be one of the highlights that come out of the draft this year.

PhilinLA wrote:Valentine is one of the few guys I like in this draft.

I like him too but I wouldn't give away something that is so far out in the future no one realistically knows how much value it has. Maybe we give away the chance to draft a blue chipper like LaMarcus Aldridge again. I'm not doing that for a senior who doesn't like to get physical.

Swishfm3 wrote:

callmened wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

fishmike wrote:

smackeddog wrote:You missed this bit :

While Valentine doesn't look scared to mix things up on the glass, he's an extremely poor defender that needed to be hidden constantly at the college level in order to not emerge as a liability. While somewhat of a combo guard offensively, he's best suited guarding small forwards who don't have much in the way of ball-handling ability or explosiveness on the other end. His lateral quickness is very poor, he doesn't cover ground well, and his effort really comes and goes, as he often looks fairly lazy closing out on shooters or trying to keep his man in front. Valentine relies heavily on reaching and grabbing his man to try and slow him down, which simply will not work at the NBA level.

Another concern is his lack of burst offensively, as he often has a tough time turning the corner against better defenders in the half-court. His size, strength and ability to change speeds works to his advantage at the college level, but there are concerns about whether he'll be able to do the same against NBA-level defenders, where everyone is much bigger, longer, stronger and more athletic.

yea but everyone else already read it.

Watch some games lol

his season, Valentine is averaging 19.5 points, 7.7 rebounds and 7.1 assists per game, despite missing four games due to a knee injury midseason. He’s improved in every single offensive statistical category in each of his four years here. Defensively, he’s a completely different player than when he got to East Lansing, having taken the time to study opponents and learn how to defend them better. The Spartans consider him their best defender, confident enough in him to put him on any guard in the country.

i watched EVERY SINGLE ONE of his games and im still not impressed that he will make a significant impact at the next level. hes jared dudley with more of a pass first mentality

I don't believe you. If you did, you wouldn't say that.

Valentine is extremely talented and I'm actually surprised he is not considered a lottery pick. IMO, when its all said and done, he will be one of the highlights that come out of the draft this year.

of course I didn't...I was exaggerating. lol. I watched most of his games on espn though

ive seen enough of him thru the yrs where ive concluded that I wasn't too impressed. I don't think hes a BAD player. im sure he can stick around the nba but I don't think hell be an impact player

I question if hes athletic enough to hang in the NBA. this was the "other" half of the scouting report -

"While Valentine doesn't look scared to mix things up on the glass, he's an extremely poor defender that needed to be hidden constantly at the college level in order to not emerge as a liability. While somewhat of a combo guard offensively, he's best suited guarding small forwards who don't have much in the way of ball-handling ability or explosiveness on the other end. His lateral quickness is very poor, he doesn't cover ground well, and his effort really comes and goes, as he often looks fairly lazy closing out on shooters or trying to keep his man in front. Valentine relies heavily on reaching and grabbing his man to try and slow him down, which simply will not work at the NBA level.
Another concern is his lack of burst offensively, as he often has a tough time turning the corner against better defenders in the half-court. His size, strength and ability to change speeds works to his advantage at the college level, but there are concerns about whether he'll be able to do the same against NBA-level defenders, where everyone is much bigger, longer, stronger and more athletic."

yellowboy90 wrote:He is not quite Buddy Hield level but he is near that level and has had a 2 year span of high volume and high percentage 3pt shooting. Last year DV avg 41.5% on 6.3(3PAs) for comparison, last year Buddy only shot 35.9% on 7.4(3PAs). It’s amazing that he shot so well while functioning like a high level point guard.

Different types of players. Buddy has more athletic ability and body control with potentially much more potent scoring ability. Valentine is a PG who can lead his team--the play maker--who can help get shots for other players--lead the break--make good plays--hit his 3's at a very efficient clip--mismatch smaller PGs down low. Maybe a slightly taller more athletic better shooting version of Mark Jackson.

callmened wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

callmened wrote:its not his shooting, passing or intelligence that I question...

I question if hes athletic enough to hang in the NBA. this was the "other" half of the scouting report -

"While Valentine doesn't look scared to mix things up on the glass, he's an extremely poor defender that needed to be hidden constantly at the college level in order to not emerge as a liability. While somewhat of a combo guard offensively, he's best suited guarding small forwards who don't have much in the way of ball-handling ability or explosiveness on the other end. His lateral quickness is very poor, he doesn't cover ground well, and his effort really comes and goes, as he often looks fairly lazy closing out on shooters or trying to keep his man in front. Valentine relies heavily on reaching and grabbing his man to try and slow him down, which simply will not work at the NBA level.
Another concern is his lack of burst offensively, as he often has a tough time turning the corner against better defenders in the half-court. His size, strength and ability to change speeds works to his advantage at the college level, but there are concerns about whether he'll be able to do the same against NBA-level defenders, where everyone is much bigger, longer, stronger and more athletic."

I totally understand where you are coming from but I think that's where if he dedicates himself into getting into the best shape it could change some of his flaws. That's why I brought up Jared Dudley. He had similar issues for his position but if you look at his write up it says he lost 20 lbs after his college days at BC. Another example is Klay Thompson and what was said about him coming out of college. He had similar knocks about his speed and quickness on D and O.

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Klay-Thompson-5490/

While there are some concerns about Thompson's athleticism hurting his offensive game at the next level, the bigger concerns lie on the defensive end, where he is noticeably lacking in lateral quickness and is taken off the dribble often.

Thompson's effort level on the defensive end has improved during his time in college, and he shows solid awareness and makes good rotations off the ball, but his lack of quickness is certainly something that can be exploited. His problems can be hid somewhat on good defensive teams, and his apparent effort level and capacity for playing good team defense will certainly be useful, though he'd have a lot of work to do to even become an average NBA defender overall.

Thompson's defensive problems should be equally pronounced at either the shooting guard or small forward positions, and the questions for teams will be how much can they coach him up and whether his offensive strengths do enough to outweigh his defensive shortcomings. His progress as a junior and strong season overall definitely quell those concerns, at least somewhat.

Thompson measured at 8% body fat(206 lbs). He had to change his body over his first few years and grew into a very good defender and added first step quickness as he changed his body. Lets remember that Thompson dropped to #11 in a what was considered a weak draft. It seems shooters with defensive issues drop. What I look for is if those shooters have positional size, length, and other qualities to make up for their games. I also like to see what kind of shooter he is: can he shoot off the dribble, spotting up, or/and off screens. Things like that weed out the Fredette/Staukas/Hardaways from the Thompson/Middleton/Crabbe. Valentine might not ever make it to Thompson level, although his college numbers are better than Klay's, but give me a smarter playmaking Crabbe or Middleton.

Dedication to change his body will be key. Look at the steps Myles Turner took last year to change his gate and strengthen his muscles around his hip. Sometimes perceived weakness are a GMs best friend especially when those weakness can be fixed and that player strengths are elite.

"Dedication to change his body will be key."
"
I totally understand where you are coming from but I think that's where if he dedicates himself into getting into the best shape it could change some of his flaws."

I agree but I cant measure that. I cant get into anyone's head. until then I simply go by what I see

True but at worst he still figures to be a starting 2 guard that may need to be hid on defense. Maybe he takes a while and has to start off by coming of the bench like Middleton, Crabbe, or Redick. I just think if you look back at history of similar shooters with flaws it makes it less likely of a chance of him failing. What bumps my expectation for him even higher is that he is a way better rebounder and passer than most of the shooters you compare him to.

His skill set is a nice package. Problem is its really tough to succeed when you are less athletic than the guys you match up against every night.