Nalod wrote:Phil is trying to do something I don't think anyone ever tried. Install a hard ass system and a culture. Deviating from the norm is never easy and full of critics. Most think he can't do it. Haters revel in it. Its easy to root for a guy to fail when the odds are not in his favor.

Im rooting for Phil. Cave to the fans who want Dolan to over ride him? I hope Phil does not succumb.

It's too bad that this system is one that nobody can coach well besides him.

It's too bad he keeps hiring his friends instead of more qualified individuals.

It's too bad he acquired the likes of Jose Calderon and Sasha Vujacic to play heavy minutes because they are 'Triangle guys'.

Thanasis? Early? Seraphin? Amundson? Galloway? Afflalo? Fisher? Rambis?

Thank you Phil for giving us Porzingis and Lopez, and possibly Grant if he ever shows any signs of being a legit NBA player.

But no thank you to this narrow-minded mentality that is not going to lead to anything but more failure. The Triangle isn't working without Phil coaching it and the Triangle will no longer be used when Phil inevitably bounces next season. So why are we all-in on a system that may not last past 2 more seasons? Why would we build a team with that system in mind?

JamesKPolk wrote:

Nalod wrote:Phil is trying to do something I don't think anyone ever tried. Install a hard ass system and a culture. Deviating from the norm is never easy and full of critics. Most think he can't do it. Haters revel in it. Its easy to root for a guy to fail when the odds are not in his favor.

Im rooting for Phil. Cave to the fans who want Dolan to over ride him? I hope Phil does not succumb.

It's too bad that this system is one that nobody can coach well besides him.

It's too bad he keeps hiring his friends instead of more qualified individuals.

It's too bad he acquired the likes of Jose Calderon and Sasha Vujacic to play heavy minutes because they are 'Triangle guys'.

Thanasis? Early? Seraphin? Amundson? Galloway? Afflalo? Fisher? Rambis?

Thank you Phil for giving us Porzingis and Lopez, and possibly Grant if he ever shows any signs of being a legit NBA player.

But no thank you to this narrow-minded mentality that is not going to lead to anything but more failure. The Triangle isn't working without Phil coaching it and the Triangle will no longer be used when Phil inevitably bounces next season. So why are we all-in on a system that may not last past 2 more seasons? Why would we build a team with that system in mind?

Yeah i pretty much have said this same things a few times on here about how when Phil leaves the triangle will be going out the door with him so what would be the sense of going full on with everything done towards us playing that system only? The hope for me is that he goes with Blatt or Vogel and keeps on Rambis as an assistant to help either of them with the offense since both are known more for being defense guys and then when Phil leaves it will be up to whoever that coach is and S.Mills about what system to run. Who knows maybe a Blatt/Vogel with Rambis works well and is working for the team and we stick with it when Phil leaves.

All i'm hoping for is that whoever is chosen for our next head coach ends up being the right decision no matter what system we run and ends up being our head coach for a long time.

Pop went back to an old school dominant style because of Aldridge. This team will also have bigs that need a more traditional style. It does depend on the team being successful tho. If they win I believe it stays.

crzymdups wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

JamesKPolk wrote:The update is that senile Phil is sitting around waiting to pick the right time to announce Kurt Rambis as coach.

Here we had Tom Thibodeau on the market. Frank Vogel is on the market.

Yet Kurt f'n Rambis is discussed as the top candidate because of the Triangle.

Phil has ran is course here. Did some nice things - like give us Porzingis and Lopez - but the good outweighs the bad. And the bad is his utter insistence on having his friends and associates be the only ones that can work for him. It failed with Fisher and it's going to fail with Rambis.

Why the disrespect? I simply don't understand this point of view when I read it and unfortunately around the internet I see it far too often. Do you suppose the Knicks could be in better hands for a rebuild? Cuz this is a rebuild and we haven't been able to get a GM to do that here and finish the job. IMO it's folly to be making disparaging comments about Phil being Senile. One of the most difficult things is to rebuild a franchise.

Phil is actually allowing his staff to do work and they are being groomed to take over when is actually gone. He's trusting his people and they are doing their jobs. We saw this with the D League team and it's extending all the way up to the big team. This is not a joke organization no matter how many times the media try to make it seem so. People need to open their damned eyes and see what's really going on. F'n UNREAL.

Whoever the coach is Phil is looking to improve this team and build it into a championship team. That is a herculean task anywhere and even harder to do in NY. Some respect for just how hard it is to accomplish would be proper.

You may not understand the point of view however it's just as valid an opinion as your own. Nix you seem to think Jax can do no wrong the fact of the matter is Rambis should _not even be dischssed_ as a serious candidate for the job. The reason being no matter how much he knows the triangle, no matter how well Phil knows him, etc etc he has had AMPLE opportunity go to show he is a capable NBA head coach in almost 300 career games and he hasn't even won 50 of them. That is horrible, no matter the personnel and the excuses of rebuilding, David Kahn, etc etc. You have Anthony and likely Mills putting it out in the press that they have no faith in the guy and you also have rumblings that Porzingis wasn't happy how he was utilized. His numbers also flailed when Rambis took over and decided a player who could be the ultimate stretch 4-5 and Rambis wants him down low most of the time. In Minny he also alienated a young Kevin Love, used him totally wrong and benched him for Ryan Freaking Gomes. That is a bad, bad sign. No denying that. He has only shown himself to be a bad coach. A very bad coach in all his opportunities. His interim time with the Knicks he had just as bad a record as fisher and had vets openly questioning why he wasn't developing the young guys. I mean. WTF???

Rambis' reputation around the league is that of a laughingstock. Where there is smoke there is fire. Now you nor I have any real clue what's going on the locker room however going from what we read and get from sources around the NBA and elsewhere the idea of hiring Rambis is UNIVERSALLY regarded as a terrible move. You just can't discount this as "Phil 11 rings, rebuilding, triangle blah blah blah".

To not even interview Tbibs is horrible. To even discuss Rambis is horrible. I haven't been a Phil detractor so far but this whole Rambis thing is beyond the pale. I'm sorry.

H1AND1 wrote:

nixluva wrote:Phil wasn't in the league and the Spurs, Bulls and Pacers ran a lot of Triangle. It's not necessarily true that the Triangle will leave when he goes! Why would that happen when the coaches, Players and even the D League team would have been immersed in the Triangle? You would think at least some of it would be retained since the team is being built for the Triangle!

Pop went back to an old school dominant style because of Aldridge. This team will also have bigs that need a more traditional style. It does depend on the team being successful tho. If they win I believe it stays.

Up to now I've preached patience with Phil because I thought perhaps he was smart enough to step back a bit. And installing a Dolan-less culture where we keep picks and don't take on stiffs. I mean, what Knicks fan doesn't want to be on board with that?

But Here's my issue: I keep hearing the Spurs, Pacers, GSW, etc play the triangle sometimes as if it's a huge part of what they do. Except that's such a misleading statement in my eyes. They have NOT been running the pure form of the triangle. Just because something takes some inspiration from parts of the triangle or that uses some things here and there is not the same as "running the triangle". And that's the crux. Not even triangle guru himself Phil Jackson can bring himself to let a coach run something besides the pure form of the triangle or allow him to try and evolve the offense into something more "modern". To me that is the mark of an ideologically rigid thinker. An ideologue. And that scares me.

Who knows maybe Phil will forget about Rambis, a universally acknowledged BAD coach and hire a smart coach who can take the triangle and TRULY modify it for the modern age. I'm not holding my breath though. Hiring Rambis means Jax is stuck inside a box.

don't say anything against the triangle, rambis or phil around these parts..your considered and idiot if you do.

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:Phil wasn't in the league and the Spurs, Bulls and Pacers ran a lot of Triangle. It's not necessarily true that the Triangle will leave when he goes! Why would that happen when the coaches, Players and even the D League team would have been immersed in the Triangle? You would think at least some of it would be retained since the team is being built for the Triangle!

Pop went back to an old school dominant style because of Aldridge. This team will also have bigs that need a more traditional style. It does depend on the team being successful tho. If they win I believe it stays.

the next coach that comes in will not run the triangle like rambis or phil, you cant an establish coach like vogel or blatt and say, this what you run like it or not, heck, we couldn't even get a rookie like fisher to buy in 100%.

Really, did Phil Run triangle 100% of the time? Is Iso Triangle? Kobe and Jordan sure did a lot of that. PnR? Shaq and Kobe? Kobe and Pau?
Basically if Blatt and Vogel want to do their thing, then Rambis is our man!!!!

Means Phil will be on the court more in practice. That's where the Triangle gets galvanized.

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fishmike wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:

nixluva wrote:Phil wasn't in the league and the Spurs, Bulls and Pacers ran a lot of Triangle. It's not necessarily true that the Triangle will leave when he goes! Why would that happen when the coaches, Players and even the D League team would have been immersed in the Triangle? You would think at least some of it would be retained since the team is being built for the Triangle!

Pop went back to an old school dominant style because of Aldridge. This team will also have bigs that need a more traditional style. It does depend on the team being successful tho. If they win I believe it stays.

Up to now I've preached patience with Phil because I thought perhaps he was smart enough to step back a bit. And installing a Dolan-less culture where we keep picks and don't take on stiffs. I mean, what Knicks fan doesn't want to be on board with that?

But Here's my issue: I keep hearing the Spurs, Pacers, GSW, etc play the triangle sometimes as if it's a huge part of what they do. Except that's such a misleading statement in my eyes. They have NOT been running the pure form of the triangle. Just because something takes some inspiration from parts of the triangle or that uses some things here and there is not the same as "running the triangle". And that's the crux. Not even triangle guru himself Phil Jackson can bring himself to let a coach run something besides the pure form of the triangle or allow him to try and evolve the offense into something more "modern". To me that is the mark of an ideologically rigid thinker. An ideologue. And that scares me.

Who knows maybe Phil will forget about Rambis, a universally acknowledged BAD coach and hire a smart coach who can take the triangle and TRULY modify it for the modern age. I'm not holding my breath though. Hiring Rambis means Jax is stuck inside a box.

thats one take. Another take is simply the Knicks and the roster were not ready for different versions since they didn't run the first one right, and when Fisher wanted to do it his way rather than what Phil envisioned he was fired.

When you are building a foundation that is exactly the time for rigid thinking. First you play the system right, then you look to add or morph.

When you are learning algebra or calculus do teachers give you 4 or 5 different ways to tackle problems? No. You learn by the book first. Then you can think outside the box when you have that foundation built.

Rigid thinking? Turn the question around. How do you evaluate a system and the players in it until you run it correctly? I mean if the goal is just try to get some talent, throw a coach at it and hope the system sticks than you have what we have had since Ewing and JVG were here. A revolving carousel with no continuity.

I actually find him being rigid refreshing. We have never had a basketball person run things and say "this is how its going to be. This is how we are going to play."

Well kp and Grant both have a skill set that they haven't mastered at all,yet they had no problem trying to turn kp into a post player, and grant into a triangle floor general.

I keep hearing we don't have the talent to run the triangle effectively. Every system needs a certain type of skill set, or it won't work. So MDA has a roster with poor 3 point shooters, and slow footed players, should he keep running 7secs or less, or modify the system?

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:

nixluva wrote:Phil wasn't in the league and the Spurs, Bulls and Pacers ran a lot of Triangle. It's not necessarily true that the Triangle will leave when he goes! Why would that happen when the coaches, Players and even the D League team would have been immersed in the Triangle? You would think at least some of it would be retained since the team is being built for the Triangle!

Pop went back to an old school dominant style because of Aldridge. This team will also have bigs that need a more traditional style. It does depend on the team being successful tho. If they win I believe it stays.

Up to now I've preached patience with Phil because I thought perhaps he was smart enough to step back a bit. And installing a Dolan-less culture where we keep picks and don't take on stiffs. I mean, what Knicks fan doesn't want to be on board with that?

But Here's my issue: I keep hearing the Spurs, Pacers, GSW, etc play the triangle sometimes as if it's a huge part of what they do. Except that's such a misleading statement in my eyes. They have NOT been running the pure form of the triangle. Just because something takes some inspiration from parts of the triangle or that uses some things here and there is not the same as "running the triangle". And that's the crux. Not even triangle guru himself Phil Jackson can bring himself to let a coach run something besides the pure form of the triangle or allow him to try and evolve the offense into something more "modern". To me that is the mark of an ideologically rigid thinker. An ideologue. And that scares me.

Who knows maybe Phil will forget about Rambis, a universally acknowledged BAD coach and hire a smart coach who can take the triangle and TRULY modify it for the modern age. I'm not holding my breath though. Hiring Rambis means Jax is stuck inside a box.

thats one take. Another take is simply the Knicks and the roster were not ready for different versions since they didn't run the first one right, and when Fisher wanted to do it his way rather than what Phil envisioned he was fired.

When you are building a foundation that is exactly the time for rigid thinking. First you play the system right, then you look to add or morph.

When you are learning algebra or calculus do teachers give you 4 or 5 different ways to tackle problems? No. You learn by the book first. Then you can think outside the box when you have that foundation built.

Rigid thinking? Turn the question around. How do you evaluate a system and the players in it until you run it correctly? I mean if the goal is just try to get some talent, throw a coach at it and hope the system sticks than you have what we have had since Ewing and JVG were here. A revolving carousel with no continuity.

I actually find him being rigid refreshing. We have never had a basketball person run things and say "this is how its going to be. This is how we are going to play."

Well kp and Grant both have a skill set that they haven't mastered at all,yet they had no problem trying to turn kp into a post player, and grant into a triangle floor general.

I keep hearing we don't have the talent to run the triangle effectively. Every system needs a certain type of skill set, or it won't work. So MDA has a roster with poor 3 point shooters, and slow footed players, should he keep running 7secs or less, or modify the system?

The proper way of doing things is to have an actual PLAN and execute it. MDA wasn't the GM. Phil is the Prez and as such he can fully control the makeup of the roster. Phil has been rebuilding this roster based on functioning best in the Triangle. It's what he knows best since he's been doing it for over 20 years!!! It makes all kinds of sense to have an actual vision and direction for your team otherwise you're just aimlessly picking players and hoping it all works out. Besides the main requirement for the Triangle is actually GOOD PLAYERS! You know multiple skills, BB IQ and being team oriented.

A lot of coaches don't even have a set offensive system that they run, so it's highly possible for a new coach to accept the job knowing Phil wants them to run the Triangle. You know why it's such a good idea? Cuz it's a fully fleshed out system that has been tested over many decades.

Other teams most certainly do use Triangle or it's principles, so why is it such a shock that Phil wants to use the Triangle as the base offense? He's NEVER said that you can't do other things offensively. All he's said is that he wants a system and wants it run right. Phil himself tweaked and added to the Triangle so this notion that it's not flexible is just ignorant of the facts.