“I’ve had to unlearn a lot of what I’ve believed in with offensive spacing because of the way the league plays today,” Vogel said. “That’s a challenge on the defensive end as well.

mreinman wrote:wonder how phil will feel about this recent Vogel quote:

“I’ve had to unlearn a lot of what I’ve believed in with offensive spacing because of the way the league plays today,” Vogel said. “That’s a challenge on the defensive end as well.

“It’s not just about you unlearning it, you have to sell that to your guys, a lot of whom have old-school viewpoints and ways (about how) the game has to be played,” Vogel said. “It’s not just my own personal willingness to do it but to get 15 guys to believe in it as well and to see how the game’s evolving. It’s been a challenge that I’ve enjoyed, but it has been uncomfortable at times for sure.”

crzymdups wrote:

Chandler wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

crzymdups wrote:The thing I like about Vogel - he just gives off the vibe that he knows what the **** he's doing. Like he's unflappable and on top of ****. Phil had that vibe. I really think Rambis lacks it. It's a weird, intangible quality the best coaches have. And I think you need it for the players to respect you. Vogel has it. Blatt may not even have it - part of his problem with Lebron. Rambis does not have it. I'm sorry, he doesn't.

Just my two cents, but I think there is something to that air of authority and excellence as a coach. Some guys got it, some don't. Vogel has it. Do other guys see that quality in Rambis? I just don't. He's a lieutenant, not a general.

That's how I feel about Vogel exactly. I saw he had it when we played then in the playoffs a few years back. He has that borderline arrogant edge. His team's took that persona on. I love the guy.

Yeah, maybe it's giving your team confidence. I agree the Indy team feeds off his confidence.

Didn't realize Vogel is only 42! Man, it'd be great to lock that guy in.

i agree with this. It's one of those odd things like a shooter and confidence (chicken and egg). If he has confidence, he hits his shots and begets more confidence. if not, then...

the other thing i like about him is his defense has been consistently good but you didn't get the Thibs criticisms of killing his players and hating his mgmt.

he's my number one choice right now. ANd keep in mind, we talk about triangle 24/7 it seems on this forum, but defense (particularly in the back court) was our major problem last year

Not only were we ineffective and stopping penetration etc. but we didn't generate any easy buckets to help our offensive number off of steals etc.

That's my thing with Phil and Rambis - they keep talking about the offense... defense was a big issue, too!

Yeah, I'd love to get Vogel with Rambis and/or Shaw for the Triangle offense. Let's build a frickin' super staff.

Has anyone gone to lookup what Indiana's offensive numbers looked like when Shaw was his top assistant?? I'd like to see what the difference was compared to when they didn't have Shaw.

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:wonder how phil will feel about this recent Vogel quote:

“I’ve had to unlearn a lot of what I’ve believed in with offensive spacing because of the way the league plays today,” Vogel said. “That’s a challenge on the defensive end as well.

I don't think he will think about it for a single second.

It's as if people think Phil has never seen this stuff before. Yes more teams are playing a spread style now but he's had to deal with when he was coaching. He's got eyes and can watch all the same games we can.

He wasn't in hibernation the few years he was out of the NBA. Phil was out for THREE SEASONS!!! Not 4, 5 or 6! He missed the 2011-12, 2012-13 and 2013-14 season which he signed with NY in March of 2014! How out of touch could he get in just 3 seasons? Not to mention he was active and following the game during that time. Helping teams and almost went back to the Lakers!

and not every old dog is willing to make ALL the appropriate changes needed to (continuously) adjust to the modern world.

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:wonder how phil will feel about this recent Vogel quote:

“I’ve had to unlearn a lot of what I’ve believed in with offensive spacing because of the way the league plays today,” Vogel said. “That’s a challenge on the defensive end as well.

I don't think he will think about it for a single second.

It's as if people think Phil has never seen this stuff before. Yes more teams are playing a spread style now but he's had to deal with when he was coaching. He's got eyes and can watch all the same games we can.

He wasn't in hibernation the few years he was out of the NBA. Phil was out for THREE SEASONS!!! Not 4, 5 or 6! He missed the 2011-12, 2012-13 and 2013-14 season which he signed with NY in March of 2014! How out of touch could he get in just 3 seasons? Not to mention he was active and following the game during that time. Helping teams and almost went back to the Lakers!

and not every old dog is willing to make ALL the appropriate changes needed to (continuously) adjust to the modern world.

AGAIN, Phil wasn't out of the loop long enough for the game to have passed him by! 3 years most of which he was either helping teams or in negotiations to coach as he was with the Lakers. The man was tuned in, not out on range in Montana. What do you think escaped his notice in that short span of time?

I've gone over this before but his team's were every bit as efficient as most teams are today playing the so called Modern Ball. How was that possible running the Triangle? Do you know?

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:wonder how phil will feel about this recent Vogel quote:

“I’ve had to unlearn a lot of what I’ve believed in with offensive spacing because of the way the league plays today,” Vogel said. “That’s a challenge on the defensive end as well.

I don't think he will think about it for a single second.

It's as if people think Phil has never seen this stuff before. Yes more teams are playing a spread style now but he's had to deal with when he was coaching. He's got eyes and can watch all the same games we can.

He wasn't in hibernation the few years he was out of the NBA. Phil was out for THREE SEASONS!!! Not 4, 5 or 6! He missed the 2011-12, 2012-13 and 2013-14 season which he signed with NY in March of 2014! How out of touch could he get in just 3 seasons? Not to mention he was active and following the game during that time. Helping teams and almost went back to the Lakers!

and not every old dog is willing to make ALL the appropriate changes needed to (continuously) adjust to the modern world.

AGAIN, Phil wasn't out of the loop long enough for the game to have passed him by! 3 years most of which he was either helping teams or in negotiations to coach as he was with the Lakers. The man was tuned in, not out on range in Montana. What do you think escaped his notice in that short span of time?

I've gone over this before but his team's were every bit as efficient as most teams are today playing the so called Modern Ball. How was that possible running the Triangle? Do you know?

kobe/pau/shaq rinse repeat ... pau and shaq were two of the most efficient players of all time .... rinse repeat

how efficient have the knicks been under him? Oh right stinky players ... yes players do make a difference ... we can agree on that.

Phil may be too stubborn to face the new game and its lack of purity. Face it!! it may be a reality that you either cannot grasp or cannot stomach.

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:wonder how phil will feel about this recent Vogel quote:

“I’ve had to unlearn a lot of what I’ve believed in with offensive spacing because of the way the league plays today,” Vogel said. “That’s a challenge on the defensive end as well.

I don't think he will think about it for a single second.

It's as if people think Phil has never seen this stuff before. Yes more teams are playing a spread style now but he's had to deal with when he was coaching. He's got eyes and can watch all the same games we can.

He wasn't in hibernation the few years he was out of the NBA. Phil was out for THREE SEASONS!!! Not 4, 5 or 6! He missed the 2011-12, 2012-13 and 2013-14 season which he signed with NY in March of 2014! How out of touch could he get in just 3 seasons? Not to mention he was active and following the game during that time. Helping teams and almost went back to the Lakers!

and not every old dog is willing to make ALL the appropriate changes needed to (continuously) adjust to the modern world.

AGAIN, Phil wasn't out of the loop long enough for the game to have passed him by! 3 years most of which he was either helping teams or in negotiations to coach as he was with the Lakers. The man was tuned in, not out on range in Montana. What do you think escaped his notice in that short span of time?

I've gone over this before but his team's were every bit as efficient as most teams are today playing the so called Modern Ball. How was that possible running the Triangle? Do you know?

kobe/pau/shaq rinse repeat ... pau and shaq were two of the most efficient players of all time .... rinse repeat

how efficient have the knicks been under him? Oh right stinky players ... yes players do make a difference ... we can agree on that.

Phil may be too stubborn to face the new game and its lack of purity. Face it!! it may be a reality that you either cannot grasp or cannot stomach.

Why do you keep mentioning the rosters? It's a given that a Title Contender is gonna have top talent. Do you realize how this hurts your argument??? My point is that playing in the Triangle these players were at high levels of efficiency.

Pau had his 4 most efficient seasons under Phil and playing in the Triangle! Yet you seem not to want to recognize the impact playing in the Triangle had on his game!!!

Lamar Odom's most efficient seasons also came in the Triangle under Phil. Bynum of course was also highly efficient under Phil and playing in the Triangle.

My point is you can't divorce the players having their best performance while playing in the Triangle. That was Phil and Rambis we're talking about!!! You're either running an efficient offense or you're not. Phil is trying to build that here but it takes more time when your starting nearly from scratch.

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:wonder how phil will feel about this recent Vogel quote:

“I’ve had to unlearn a lot of what I’ve believed in with offensive spacing because of the way the league plays today,” Vogel said. “That’s a challenge on the defensive end as well.

I don't think he will think about it for a single second.

It's as if people think Phil has never seen this stuff before. Yes more teams are playing a spread style now but he's had to deal with when he was coaching. He's got eyes and can watch all the same games we can.

He wasn't in hibernation the few years he was out of the NBA. Phil was out for THREE SEASONS!!! Not 4, 5 or 6! He missed the 2011-12, 2012-13 and 2013-14 season which he signed with NY in March of 2014! How out of touch could he get in just 3 seasons? Not to mention he was active and following the game during that time. Helping teams and almost went back to the Lakers!

and not every old dog is willing to make ALL the appropriate changes needed to (continuously) adjust to the modern world.

AGAIN, Phil wasn't out of the loop long enough for the game to have passed him by! 3 years most of which he was either helping teams or in negotiations to coach as he was with the Lakers. The man was tuned in, not out on range in Montana. What do you think escaped his notice in that short span of time?

I've gone over this before but his team's were every bit as efficient as most teams are today playing the so called Modern Ball. How was that possible running the Triangle? Do you know?

kobe/pau/shaq rinse repeat ... pau and shaq were two of the most efficient players of all time .... rinse repeat

how efficient have the knicks been under him? Oh right stinky players ... yes players do make a difference ... we can agree on that.

Phil may be too stubborn to face the new game and its lack of purity. Face it!! it may be a reality that you either cannot grasp or cannot stomach.

Why do you keep mentioning the rosters? It's a given that a Title Contender is gonna have top talent. Do you realize how this hurts your argument??? My point is that playing in the Triangle these players were at high levels of efficiency.

Pau had his 4 most efficient seasons under Phil and playing in the Triangle! Yet you seem not to want to recognize the impact playing in the Triangle had on his game!!!

Lamar Odom's most efficient seasons also came in the Triangle under Phil. Bynum of course was also highly efficient under Phil and playing in the Triangle.

My point is you can't divorce the players having their best performance while playing in the Triangle. That was Phil and Rambis we're talking about!!! You're either running an efficient offense or you're not. Phil is trying to build that here but it takes more time when your starting nearly from scratch.

no it does not hurt my argument, you are just missing it. Chicago and LA had to of the best (maybe the best) break down guards of all time. Do you think that this may be why (some) bigs were more efficient? No you probably did not consider that which is why you keep stating partials that really don't work and help you prove that the triangle would be efficient in todays game.

Watching the spurs, they seem to run a PnR on almost every play and when they don't, they are going into the (LOW) post (if there is a mismatch) to their devastating post players. PnR after PnR after PnR. Pop and his disciples are not tied to any damn system and they are certainly not out to prove one.

The Triangle offense not being for today is not something that some of us made up, its an argument that many many many really smart basketball pro's make. DO THEY HAVE 11 EFFIN RINGS YOU ASK??? No, but they where pants.

All successful phil disciples seem to not run the (real) triangle and all the ones that failed did. Players you are to blame? Then don't give credit to coaches when players are good.

You are all over the place and can't even see this as a valid argument ... its like staring at a blank screen.

As I pointed out before you can't have it both ways. You can't say that the Triangle is not as efficient as the "Modern Offenses" but that it was only as efficient as the modern offenses because of efficient bigs, but those bigs were so efficient because of Kobe and Jordan, but then not acknowledge that all the players BEST efficiency came under the Triangle Offense!!!!!! You can't just separate them to fit your argument against the Offense. When Kobe broke the offense they were LESS efficient not more efficient. When he stuck to the offense the team was highly efficient!!! Do you see how that works or are you gonna just keep spouting nonsense?

Don't keep changing the subject. Spurs running some PnR or Screens is not the point. You are trying to say that the Triangle is not efficient and was only just as efficient as today's offenses because of the players. But then you have no answer for why those players MOST Efficient seasons came when they played in the Triangle!!!

As for today's NBA when did that start exactly? The Phil's Lakers last won the Finals in 2009-10 and made the 2nd rd in 2010-11. So Phil wasn't in the league when Miami won in 2012, Miami won in 2013 and the Spurs won in 2014. He came back last year when Golden State won the Title. So while Phil was out the changes in Offenses was so great that he couldn't possibly have won with a talented team running the Triangle? Those Miami teams weren't more efficient than his Triangle teams. Neither was the Champion Spurs team more efficient than Phil's Triangle Lakers team's. Golden State is the only team that was a more efficient NBA Champion than Phil's last few Title teams.

So perhaps the Warriors have passed his Triangle by but not the league!!!

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:wonder how phil will feel about this recent Vogel quote:

“I’ve had to unlearn a lot of what I’ve believed in with offensive spacing because of the way the league plays today,” Vogel said. “That’s a challenge on the defensive end as well.

I don't think he will think about it for a single second.

It's as if people think Phil has never seen this stuff before. Yes more teams are playing a spread style now but he's had to deal with when he was coaching. He's got eyes and can watch all the same games we can.

He wasn't in hibernation the few years he was out of the NBA. Phil was out for THREE SEASONS!!! Not 4, 5 or 6! He missed the 2011-12, 2012-13 and 2013-14 season which he signed with NY in March of 2014! How out of touch could he get in just 3 seasons? Not to mention he was active and following the game during that time. Helping teams and almost went back to the Lakers!

and not every old dog is willing to make ALL the appropriate changes needed to (continuously) adjust to the modern world.

AGAIN, Phil wasn't out of the loop long enough for the game to have passed him by! 3 years most of which he was either helping teams or in negotiations to coach as he was with the Lakers. The man was tuned in, not out on range in Montana. What do you think escaped his notice in that short span of time?

I've gone over this before but his team's were every bit as efficient as most teams are today playing the so called Modern Ball. How was that possible running the Triangle? Do you know?

kobe/pau/shaq rinse repeat ... pau and shaq were two of the most efficient players of all time .... rinse repeat

how efficient have the knicks been under him? Oh right stinky players ... yes players do make a difference ... we can agree on that.

Phil may be too stubborn to face the new game and its lack of purity. Face it!! it may be a reality that you either cannot grasp or cannot stomach.

Why do you keep mentioning the rosters? It's a given that a Title Contender is gonna have top talent. Do you realize how this hurts your argument??? My point is that playing in the Triangle these players were at high levels of efficiency.

Pau had his 4 most efficient seasons under Phil and playing in the Triangle! Yet you seem not to want to recognize the impact playing in the Triangle had on his game!!!

Lamar Odom's most efficient seasons also came in the Triangle under Phil. Bynum of course was also highly efficient under Phil and playing in the Triangle.

My point is you can't divorce the players having their best performance while playing in the Triangle. That was Phil and Rambis we're talking about!!! You're either running an efficient offense or you're not. Phil is trying to build that here but it takes more time when your starting nearly from scratch.

"My point is you can't divorce the players having their best performance while playing in the Triangle. That was Phil and Rambis we're talking about!!!"

You are dead wrong about that. That was Phil all the way, Rambis was never a good motivator. Rambis was not the one calling timeouts and putting X's O's on the board. That was Phil. Phil is undisputably the greatest coach this game has ever seen. And that's where it ends. As a GM...so-so.

Phil's motivation skills are what Michael Jordan took on.
The every offseason giving players books to read...that was Phil, not Rambis.

The mental fortitude that those teams had...that came from Phil, not from Rambis.

And you never answered my other post, mr dodger, very conveniently...oh i didn't read it.

Your statement "Even if you and others don't like Rambis he's an option if Phil can't sign one of the top options he's looking at. There's a certain strength in knowing that. So Phil can search without any panic or feeling of dread as if he had no one at all to fall back on."

My response...uhuh yeah... rambis is an option like you or i or john mcenroe are options.

And now to add to that, you are even more delusional than I thought if you think Rambis is a viable option.
that's just setting up for another non-playoff season.

newyorker4ever wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Chandler wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

crzymdups wrote:The thing I like about Vogel - he just gives off the vibe that he knows what the **** he's doing. Like he's unflappable and on top of ****. Phil had that vibe. I really think Rambis lacks it. It's a weird, intangible quality the best coaches have. And I think you need it for the players to respect you. Vogel has it. Blatt may not even have it - part of his problem with Lebron. Rambis does not have it. I'm sorry, he doesn't.

Just my two cents, but I think there is something to that air of authority and excellence as a coach. Some guys got it, some don't. Vogel has it. Do other guys see that quality in Rambis? I just don't. He's a lieutenant, not a general.

That's how I feel about Vogel exactly. I saw he had it when we played then in the playoffs a few years back. He has that borderline arrogant edge. His team's took that persona on. I love the guy.

Yeah, maybe it's giving your team confidence. I agree the Indy team feeds off his confidence.

Didn't realize Vogel is only 42! Man, it'd be great to lock that guy in.

i agree with this. It's one of those odd things like a shooter and confidence (chicken and egg). If he has confidence, he hits his shots and begets more confidence. if not, then...

the other thing i like about him is his defense has been consistently good but you didn't get the Thibs criticisms of killing his players and hating his mgmt.

he's my number one choice right now. ANd keep in mind, we talk about triangle 24/7 it seems on this forum, but defense (particularly in the back court) was our major problem last year

Not only were we ineffective and stopping penetration etc. but we didn't generate any easy buckets to help our offensive number off of steals etc.

That's my thing with Phil and Rambis - they keep talking about the offense... defense was a big issue, too!

Yeah, I'd love to get Vogel with Rambis and/or Shaw for the Triangle offense. Let's build a frickin' super staff.

Has anyone gone to lookup what Indiana's offensive numbers looked like when Shaw was his top assistant?? I'd like to see what the difference was compared to when they didn't have Shaw.

I ask again....has anyone looked up what their offense looked like with Shaw compared to without?? I think this would be a important thing to know if we actually do sign Vogel.

Have at my man: http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/IND/