crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

dk7th wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Basketball is actually a simple game. It's real simple. Defend the ball, protect the rim, move the ball to get open shots. Riley's simple system? He adapts for his talent. He gets talent. He knows getting the talent is paramount and he's damn good at that. Showtime Lakers, Ewing and Oak Knicks, Shaq, Wade, and Bron's Heat.

Knicks have spent the past 20 years chasing systems - Don Nelson, MDA, now Phil.

Only time we had success after Riley left was when we hired his top lieutenant, JVG.

It's not really that complicated.

the knicks don't have enough talent to adapt to yet. when they get the requisite level of talent they will be better than average and then we can start thinking about adapting to that talent. and then that talent ought to be fundamentally sound as well, as in possessing the requisite skills.

that will take time and require patience. you can't undo 15 years of recklessness and chaos in two seasons.

This

Only they aren't planning to adapt to their talent. They're planning to make their talent adapt to their system.

For any system and roster development, it's always a bit of both. And when you tear it down completely, you always go after the player and talent that you think will fit your system.

Do you really think that over the reign in Chicago and LA there was zero adapting the Triangle to fit the players? If you don't, you are being hard-headed and unrealistic.

I know it was only a movie, but I keep thinking about Gene Hackman in Hoosiers trying to get his guys to play the right way - his system - and never backing down at the beginning, forcing X number of passes before a shot went up. Right now it's in the best interest of a young team, not only in age but in the amount of time they have been together, to adhere to the principals of whatever structure they are trying to put in place. Even if the team was trying to run a "modern offense", I don't think you'd want the coach to suddenly switch the second half to the Triangle, that's just stupid, especially when you still have not yet even come close to getting the basics of the modern offense down. You just don't teach and build upon that way.

For me the biggest issue this year was that we started Jose and AA which meant the team had 2 guards that don't push the ball or break down a defense and get to the rim on a regular basis. AA didn't pass the ball either. The idea was for Grant, Gallo and DWILL to provide most of the uptempo, easy buckets, penetration etc.

Grant was the main guard with the talent to push, PnR and attack the basket but he was a rookie and struggled with confidence. Thank goodness he finally got it going and looks like he will have a big role next season. If we can get Wroten in the mix that's another guard who can do those things. All we need is for Phil to add another guard to the group who can also do the same things this offense needs. It's not the system. It's the players.

Not to mention the defense should improve with Grant, Gallo, Wroten and hopefully a FA like Bazemore added to the mix. For all the complaining it's pretty clear what the solution to the team's problems are and Phil knows it all too well.

dk7th wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

dk7th wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Basketball is actually a simple game. It's real simple. Defend the ball, protect the rim, move the ball to get open shots. Riley's simple system? He adapts for his talent. He gets talent. He knows getting the talent is paramount and he's damn good at that. Showtime Lakers, Ewing and Oak Knicks, Shaq, Wade, and Bron's Heat.

Knicks have spent the past 20 years chasing systems - Don Nelson, MDA, now Phil.

Only time we had success after Riley left was when we hired his top lieutenant, JVG.

It's not really that complicated.

the knicks don't have enough talent to adapt to yet. when they get the requisite level of talent they will be better than average and then we can start thinking about adapting to that talent. and then that talent ought to be fundamentally sound as well, as in possessing the requisite skills.

that will take time and require patience. you can't undo 15 years of recklessness and chaos in two seasons.

That's fair. Hey, bright side if they suck next season, we get a draft pick.

I wouldn't mind this season quite so much if we hadn't done the Bargnani trade and we were swapping picks with Denver at the 2016 draft.

BUT, if they suck next season, I sort of wonder if Phil opts out and bounces to LA to teach Luke to use the Force...em, I mean Triangle to coach the Lakers.

this may be an age thing, but i imagine most of the guys on this and most other forums were not old enough to remember or participate as fans the last time the knicks won it all. and no, the ewing era doesn't count.

i mention this because, having been just old enough, i know how thrilling it was to see the knicks win it all-- and the way they played was superb. and phil jackson was a pretty big contributor off that knicks bench. he was all elbows and grit, a real pain in the butt for opponents. having won two of his rings as a player, moreover with the knicks, i have to believe his love for and devotion to the knicks franchise is deeper than you and many other pessimists will give him credit for.

although his persona is difficult if not outright grating, i still trust that his love for the knicks runs deep, far deeper than dolan.

That may be true - I've never seen a game of the 69 and 73 teams. They're just a rumor to me. I want to believe in Phil, but having never seen it with me own eyes, maybe I have a harder time believing it.

But I look at Charlotte - a team that right now I do not think has more talent than the Knicks have right now - and the difference I see is coaching, system, roster makeup. I think Alexi Shved is actually better than Jeremy Lin... we let him walk for nothing so we could sign Kevin Seraphin. Hornets are beating the Heat in Game 4 right now and have scored out of time outs like three times in a row. They're just a well coached team that plays hard. Knicks have more talent than them. Not as well coached and the system is holding them back right now.

You saw the Knicks take off a little in January as Fisher started to abandon the Triangle a little. Beat Atlanta soundly twice. Atlanta is what.. the three seed? I think if we had a great coach, we could have the record Atlanta has. Is it worth stubbornly holding out for pure Triangle basketball for maybe a better chance at a championship later? I guess we'll find out.

crzymdups wrote:

dk7th wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

dk7th wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Basketball is actually a simple game. It's real simple. Defend the ball, protect the rim, move the ball to get open shots. Riley's simple system? He adapts for his talent. He gets talent. He knows getting the talent is paramount and he's damn good at that. Showtime Lakers, Ewing and Oak Knicks, Shaq, Wade, and Bron's Heat.

Knicks have spent the past 20 years chasing systems - Don Nelson, MDA, now Phil.

Only time we had success after Riley left was when we hired his top lieutenant, JVG.

It's not really that complicated.

the knicks don't have enough talent to adapt to yet. when they get the requisite level of talent they will be better than average and then we can start thinking about adapting to that talent. and then that talent ought to be fundamentally sound as well, as in possessing the requisite skills.

that will take time and require patience. you can't undo 15 years of recklessness and chaos in two seasons.

That's fair. Hey, bright side if they suck next season, we get a draft pick.

I wouldn't mind this season quite so much if we hadn't done the Bargnani trade and we were swapping picks with Denver at the 2016 draft.

BUT, if they suck next season, I sort of wonder if Phil opts out and bounces to LA to teach Luke to use the Force...em, I mean Triangle to coach the Lakers.

this may be an age thing, but i imagine most of the guys on this and most other forums were not old enough to remember or participate as fans the last time the knicks won it all. and no, the ewing era doesn't count.

i mention this because, having been just old enough, i know how thrilling it was to see the knicks win it all-- and the way they played was superb. and phil jackson was a pretty big contributor off that knicks bench. he was all elbows and grit, a real pain in the butt for opponents. having won two of his rings as a player, moreover with the knicks, i have to believe his love for and devotion to the knicks franchise is deeper than you and many other pessimists will give him credit for.

although his persona is difficult if not outright grating, i still trust that his love for the knicks runs deep, far deeper than dolan.

That may be true - I've never seen a game of the 69 and 73 teams. They're just a rumor to me. I want to believe in Phil, but having never seen it with me own eyes, maybe I have a harder time believing it.

But I look at Charlotte - a team that right now I do not think has more talent than the Knicks have right now - and the difference I see is coaching, system, roster makeup. I think Alexi Shved is actually better than Jeremy Lin... we let him walk for nothing so we could sign Kevin Seraphin. Hornets are beating the Heat in Game 4 right now and have scored out of time outs like three times in a row. They're just a well coached team that plays hard. Knicks have more talent than them. Not as well coached and the system is holding them back right now.

You saw the Knicks take off a little in January as Fisher started to abandon the Triangle a little. Beat Atlanta soundly twice. Atlanta is what.. the three seed? I think if we had a great coach, we could have the record Atlanta has. Is it worth stubbornly holding out for pure Triangle basketball for maybe a better chance at a championship later? I guess we'll find out.

my thoughts exactly on charlotte and even down to tonights timeout plays.

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:People say they're tired of the Triangle. Well I'm tired of hearing about PnR! PnR is not an entire offense. The Knicks do use PnR among other things.

The Pick and Roll is the single most effective basketball play. Full stop.

The Knicks do not use it. Fisher was fired for using it.

This is an oversimplification of high order. Fish was not fired for using PnR!!! Phil has always had some PnR but didn't depend on it. Funny how Phil won all those Titles not depending on PnR.

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

dk7th wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Basketball is actually a simple game. It's real simple. Defend the ball, protect the rim, move the ball to get open shots. Riley's simple system? He adapts for his talent. He gets talent. He knows getting the talent is paramount and he's damn good at that. Showtime Lakers, Ewing and Oak Knicks, Shaq, Wade, and Bron's Heat.

Knicks have spent the past 20 years chasing systems - Don Nelson, MDA, now Phil.

Only time we had success after Riley left was when we hired his top lieutenant, JVG.

It's not really that complicated.

the knicks don't have enough talent to adapt to yet. when they get the requisite level of talent they will be better than average and then we can start thinking about adapting to that talent. and then that talent ought to be fundamentally sound as well, as in possessing the requisite skills.

that will take time and require patience. you can't undo 15 years of recklessness and chaos in two seasons.

This

Only they aren't planning to adapt to their talent. They're planning to make their talent adapt to their system.

For any system and roster development, it's always a bit of both. And when you tear it down completely, you always go after the player and talent that you think will fit your system.

Do you really think that over the reign in Chicago and LA there was zero adapting the Triangle to fit the players? If you don't, you are being hard-headed and unrealistic.

I know it was only a movie, but I keep thinking about Gene Hackman in Hoosiers trying to get his guys to play the right way - his system - and never backing down at the beginning, forcing X number of passes before a shot went up. Right now it's in the best interest of a young team, not only in age but in the amount of time they have been together, to adhere to the principals of whatever structure they are trying to put in place. Even if the team was trying to run a "modern offense", I don't think you'd want the coach to suddenly switch the second half to the Triangle, that's just stupid, especially when you still have not yet even come close to getting the basics of the modern offense down. You just don't teach and build upon that way.

He won in his second year in Chicago and first year in LA - so it didn't have nearly the learning curve that people always point to. The Lakers went 67-15 his first season there.

I think having a young team that needs to learn how to win, when you add to that having to learn the Triangle... it makes it harder.

It reminds me of Larry Brown being here, imploring guys to play the right way. First you might just need to learn how to play.

I agree that having young players who don't know how to win, have to adjust to the NBA level at the same time learning the Triangle can be tough. If you have great talent like Phil's Lakers team, they can win even while still not perfecting a system. Those situations were not rebuilds like this.

Still the Frontcourt players were fine for the most part. It was the subpar Backcourt play that really held the team back. This team will go as far as the Backcourt players allow it to go.

There's also the fact that Phil was a great in-game coach. Rambis is not.

Phil's teams scored like clockwork out of timeouts. He also FREQUENTLY ditched the Triangle in the final six minutes and let his superstars take over. I may not have seen the 69/73 Knicks (who didn't run the Triangle), but I saw almost every MJ and Kobe playoffs game over the years.

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:People say they're tired of the Triangle. Well I'm tired of hearing about PnR! PnR is not an entire offense. The Knicks do use PnR among other things.

The Pick and Roll is the single most effective basketball play. Full stop.

The Knicks do not use it. Fisher was fired for using it.

This is an oversimplification of high order. Fish was not fired for using PnR!!! Phil has always had some PnR but didn't depend on it. Funny how Phil won all those Titles not depending on PnR.

in a few years with some zen praying, perhpaps we can clone those players who did not need PnR. Now we are stuck with regular players who do.

Yeah! Thank you! "Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant didn't need the pick and roll" is not exactly an argument for why Jerian Grant and Kristaps Porzingis shouldn't do it ever.

Jackson clashed frequently with Bryant. While remarkably efficient in Jackson's "triangle offense", Bryant had a personal distaste for Jackson's brand of basketball and subsequently called it "boring". In games, Bryant would often disregard the set offense completely to experiment with his own one-on-one moves, incensing the normally calm Jackson. Bryant managed to test Jackson's patience enough that the "Zen Master" even demanded that Bryant be traded, although Laker management rejected the request.

On June 18, 2004, three days after the loss to the Pistons, the Lakers announced that Jackson would leave his position as Lakers coach. Jackson was seeking to double his salary from $6 million to $12 million on his expiring contract. He had a contract offer outstanding from the Lakers, but he had not acted on it.[19] Winter said Jackson announced at the All-Star break that he would not want to return to the Lakers if Bryant returned.[19]

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:People say they're tired of the Triangle. Well I'm tired of hearing about PnR! PnR is not an entire offense. The Knicks do use PnR among other things.

The Pick and Roll is the single most effective basketball play. Full stop.

The Knicks do not use it. Fisher was fired for using it.

This is an oversimplification of high order. Fish was not fired for using PnR!!! Phil has always had some PnR but didn't depend on it. Funny how Phil won all those Titles not depending on PnR.

in a few years with some zen praying, perhpaps we can clone those players who did not need PnR. Now we are stuck with regular players who do.

Yeah! Thank you! "Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant didn't need the pick and roll" is not exactly an argument for why Jerian Grant and Kristaps Porzingis shouldn't do it ever.

Lakers ran 4/5 PnR so I don't see it as something new to the Triangle.

and? So they ran some pnr ... you keep missing the point.

did you see the stats posted this morning about the % of pnr the knicks run compared to the rest of the league?