SupremeCommander wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:If you're going to overpay no matter who you sign, I think it might make sense to go after a young player. Crabbe isn't going to outrank Lillard or McCollum so I do think Portland would be less likely to match. What scares me is that he looks like an average player. I hope we can employ the cash more effectively

Well I guess it would be a theory that the guy just turned 24 is on an upswing in his game--his efficient in what he does and can grow with the team. To say were getting a star player--thats a tough sell. I think that we can win by getting a lot of good players who are efficient who can spread the floor who have different skill sets which will work in a cumulative team fashion. I think we made some progress using this in last free agency--we got 3 players who helped. Our stars have to be KP and Carmelo if he stays and the more efficient we can become--the better everything will work.

I don't disagree with you. He could get better. But I don't see anything that makes me think that he's anything more than an average player. What does Crabbe do at an above average level?

And that's the rub. Pretty much every FA the Knicks go after this summer will be for a projection of what that player COULD be down the line.

SupremeCommander wrote:

martin wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:If you're going to overpay no matter who you sign, I think it might make sense to go after a young player. Crabbe isn't going to outrank Lillard or McCollum so I do think Portland would be less likely to match. What scares me is that he looks like an average player. I hope we can employ the cash more effectively

Well I guess it would be a theory that the guy just turned 24 is on an upswing in his game--his efficient in what he does and can grow with the team. To say were getting a star player--thats a tough sell. I think that we can win by getting a lot of good players who are efficient who can spread the floor who have different skill sets which will work in a cumulative team fashion. I think we made some progress using this in last free agency--we got 3 players who helped. Our stars have to be KP and Carmelo if he stays and the more efficient we can become--the better everything will work.

I don't disagree with you. He could get better. But I don't see anything that makes me think that he's anything more than an average player. What does Crabbe do at an above average level?

And that's the rub. Pretty much every FA the Knicks go after this summer will be for a projection of what that player COULD be down the line.

I'm more in favor of something like this if you can say something like, "Crabbe is a young guy that hasn't put it all together yet BUT he is a an above average (1) shooter, (2) passer, or (3) defender etc." At least you could argue that Landry Fields was an elite rebounder at his position or that Marco Belinelli could stroke it...

I'm not going to claim to be a Crabbe expert so that's why I'm asking. I would not be opposed to a signing like this but I want to see the growth potential a la Derrick Williams

Rk Player            Pos Age Tm   G   MP    PER   TS%   3PAr  FTr   TRB% AST%  STL% BLK% TOV% USG%  WS   WS/48 ▾ OBPM  DBPM  BPM  VORP
01 Mike Conley	     PG  28  MEM  56  1760  19.4  .538  .309  .329  5.3  32.9  2.0  0.8  9.5  22.6  5.4  .147    3.7   -1.9  1.7  1.7
02 D.J. Augustin     PG  28  TOT  56  1061  14.3  .582  .479  .371  4.6	 25.1  1.6  0.2  16.5 17.8  2.6  .120    1.3   -2.6 -1.3  0.2
03 Ramon Sessions    PG  29  WAS  75  1469  15.0  .556	.186  .498  7.0  19.3  1.4  0.3  13.6 21.7  2.9  .095	-0.9   -1.4 -2.3 -0.1
04 Brandon Jennings  PG  26  TOT  44   799  14.1  .495  .514  .269  6.3  28.8  1.6  0.6  13.8 20.4  1.5  .090    0.7   -1.7 -1.0  0.2
05 Rajon Rondo	     PG  29  SAC  70  2466  16.8  .504  .218  .189  9.2  47.9  2.7  0.3  25.0 18.8  4.4  .085    0.7    0.2  0.9  1.8
06 Donald Sloan      PG  28  BRK  54  1164  13.8  .540	.285  .325  7.9  29.0  1.3  0.2  18.2 15.9  1.7  .072	-0.4   -1.7 -2.1  0.0
Rk Player            Pos Age Tm   G   MP    PER   TS%   3PAr  FTr   TRB% AST%  STL% BLK% TOV% USG%  WS   WS/48 ▾ OBPM  DBPM  BPM  VORP
07 Isaiah Canaan     PG  24  PHI  74  1880  10.9  .527  .671  .248  4.8  11.3  1.4  0.4  10.6 19.8  1.3  .034    0.1   -2.9 -2.8 -0.4
08 Ish Smith         PG  27  TOT  70  1993  15.3  .460	.161  .181  7.5  39.4  2.0  0.7  13.8 24.4  1.2  .028	-0.4   -1.0 -1.4  0.3
09 Ty Lawson         PG  28  TOT  59  1257  9.5   .485	.319  .256  4.3  23.2  1.9  0.4  19.8 14.9  0.6  .024	-2.7   -2.1 -4.8 -0.9
10 Norris Cole	     PG  27  NOP  45  1198  10.9  .465	.211  .134  7.0  22.1  1.5  0.3  12.8 21.7  0.0	-0.002	-2.3   -1.2 -3.5 -0.5
11 Greivis Vasquez   PG  29  MIL  17   374   8.8  .456	.482  .219  6.1  28.9  1.1  0.0  19.9 18.8 -0.1	-0.009	-2.3   -3.7 -6.0 -0.4
Rk Player            Pos Age Tm   G   MP    PER   TS%   3PAr  FTr   TRB% AST%  STL% BLK% TOV% USG%  WS   WS/48 ▾ OBPM  DBPM  BPM  VORP
01 Kevin Durant      SF  27  OKC  67  2403  28.1  .634	.339  .359  12.6 24.0  1.3  2.6  13.5 30.4  13.5 .269	 6.8    1.0  7.8  6.0
02 Luol Deng         SF  30  MIA  66  2117  14.9  .545	.345  .267  10.3 8.4   1.6   1.0 8.3  17.4  5.6  .128	 1.1    0.5  1.6  1.9
03 Michael Beasley   SF  27  HOU  13   257  22.6  .572	.054  .209  14.6 6.8   1.5  2.6  9.5  30.0  0.6  .114	-1.4   -2.9 -4.3 -0.1
04 Harrison Barnes   SF  23  GSW  59  1812  12.0  .544	.316  .225  8.5  8.1   1.1  0.4  7.4  15.8  4.3  .113	 0.1   -0.5 -0.4  0.7
05 Evan Fournier     SF  23  ORL  71  2277  14.4  .579	.425  .249  4.9  12.7  1.9  0.1  10.8 19.7  5.0  .106	 1.9   -1.4  0.6  1.5
06 Solomon Hill      SF  24  IND  51   660  10.7  .499	.326  .243  10.0 9.6   1.9  1.2  11.1 12.0  1.4  .105	-2.0	1.3 -0.7  0.2
07 Kent Bazemore     SF  26  ATL  70  1935  12.9  .547	.416  .206  9.6  12.1  2.2  1.3  14.4 19.8  3.5  .088	-1.4    1.3 -0.1  0.9
08 Maurice Harkless  SF  22  POR  71  1263  12.6  .544	.353  .274  9.9  7.0   1.5  1.7  12.9 15.3  2.3  .086	-0.8    0.0 -0.9  0.4
09 Chase Budinger    SF  27  TOT  60   865  10.6  .506	.366  .223  8.9  9.6   1.7  0.8  13.1 14.3  1.4	 .075	-2.1    0.3 -1.7  0.1
Rk Player            Pos Age Tm   G   MP    PER   TS%   3PAr  FTr   TRB% AST%  STL% BLK% TOV% USG%  WS   WS/48 ▾ OBPM  DBPM  BPM  VORP
10 Jeff Green        SF  29  TOT  72  2052  12.9  .512	.259  .265  8.5	 10.0  1.3  1.5  9.3  19.8  2.9  .069	-1.0   -0.7 -1.6  0.2
11 Garrett Temple    SF  29  WAS  73  1812  9.1   .518  .511  .246  6.0  9.7   1.7  0.7  9.4  13.9  2.5  .065	-1.0    0.0 -1.0  0.4
12 Lance Thomas      SF  27  NYK  59  1313  10.5  .557	.285  .312  5.5  6.4   0.9  0.4  11.6 16.9  1.7  .061	-1.1   -2.1 -3.2 -0.4
13 Jarell Eddie      SF  24  WAS  22    99  10.8  .492	.791  .093  8.0  3.0   1.0  0.8  2.2  20.3  0.1  .047	-1.3   -4.3 -5.6 -0.1
14 Cleanthony Early  SF  24  NYK  11	34  7.0   .583	.667  .000  3.2  4.4   1.5  2.2  14.3 9.3   0.0  .042	-2.8   -0.6 -3.3  0.0
15 Sergey Karasev    SF  22  BRK  38   366  8.9   .584	.515  .379  7.7  10.6  0.8  0.4  19.8 11.8  0.3  .040	-2.2   -1.8 -4.0 -0.2
16 P.J. Hairston     SF  23  TOT  62  1251  7.0   .473  .590  .158  7.2  4.5   1.2  0.7  8.7  16.2  0.7  .025	-2.6   -1.4 -3.9 -0.6

Rk Player            Pos Age Tm   G   MP    PER   TS%   3PAr  FTr   TRB% AST%  STL% BLK% TOV% USG%  WS   WS/48 ▾ OBPM  DBPM  BPM  VORP
01 DeMar DeRozan     SG  26  TOR  73  2640  21.5  .551	.102  .483  7.0  20.4  1.5  0.7  9.5  29.7  9.3  .169	 2.6   -1.2  1.4  2.3
02 Tyler Johnson     SG  23  MIA  36   863  13.8  .581  .289  .264  7.2  14.1  1.4  1.3  14.8 16.8  2.1  .114    0.4    0.1  0.5  0.5
03 Troy Daniels      SG  24  CHO  39   386  14.7  .613  .626  .058  6.8  7.2   1.0  0.6  10.2 20.7  0.8  .105	 1.1   -2.8 -1.7  0.0
04 Nicolas Batum     SG  27  CHO  65  2317  15.8  .549  .460  .226  9.7  26.5  1.3  1.5  17.7 21.3  4.9  .101    1.2    1.1  2.3  2.5	
05 Leandro Barbosa   SG  33  GSW  62   980  12.1  .545  .297  .182  5.6  11.4  2.1  0.7  11.3 18.2  0.9	 .099	-1.0   -0.9 -1.9  0.0	
06 Allen Crabbe      SG  23  POR  74  1925  12.2  .568  .416  .158  5.6  7.2   1.5  0.6  8.1  16.6  3.9  .098    0.3   -1.1 -0.8  0.6
07 Brandon Rush      SG  30  GSW  65   990  10.3  .556	.593  .114  9.1  7.3   1.0  1.5  10.1 12.5  1.9  .093	-1.1   -0.1 -1.2  0.2
08 Evan Turner       SG  27  BOS  74  2051  13.6  .507  .114  .237  9.4  24.0  1.7  0.9  16.7 18.5  3.7  .086	-2.0    1.3 -0.7  0.7
09 Courtney Lee	     SG	 30  TOT  71  2088  12.0  .566	.341  .195  4.9  8.9   1.8  1.0	 9.8  14.9  2.2	 .086	-0.2   -0.3 -0.5  0.8
Rk Player            Pos Age Tm   G   MP    PER   TS%   3PAr  FTr   TRB% AST%  STL% BLK% TOV% USG%  WS   WS/48 ▾ OBPM  DBPM  BPM  VORP
10 Ian Clark         SG  24  GSW  61   556  12.0  .549	.415  .170  6.5  15.6  1.4  1.6  16.3 19.9  0.9  .080	-1.5   -1.3 -2.9 -0.1
11 Bradley Beal      SG  22  WAS  50  1554  15.6  .547  .336  .219  6.2  15.5  1.5  0.5  11.1 25.4  2.5  .076    1.0   -1.7 -0.8  0.5
12 Jerryd Bayless    SG  27  MIL  52  1505  12.5  .568	.529  .206  5.3  16.2  1.6  0.6  13.3 16.5  2.4  .076	 1.1   -2.1 -1.0  0.4
13 E'Twaun Moore     SG  26  CHI  56  1182  11.5  .553  .263  .096  5.5  11.9  1.4  1.0  11.8 15.9  1.8  .074	-1.1   -0.6 -1.7  0.1
14 Eric Gordon       SG  27  NOP  45  1481  13.6  .565  .533  .226  3.7  12.8  1.4  0.8  10.7 20.3  2.2  .072    1.7   -2.0 -0.3  0.6
15 Gerald Henderson  SG  28  POR  66  1290  13.0  .527  .268  .272  8.3  7.8   1.3  1.2	 10.0 20.0  1.9  .071	-2.0   -1.3 -3.3 -0.4
Rk Player            Pos Age Tm   G   MP    PER   TS%   3PAr  FTr   TRB% AST%  STL% BLK% TOV% USG%  WS   WS/48 ▾ OBPM  DBPM  BPM  VORP
16 Arron Afflalo     SG  30  NYK  65  2200  11.1  .534	.294  .168  6.1  9.8   0.5  0.3  8.8  18.1  2.5  .055	-0.5   -1.8 -2.3 -0.2
17 Kevin Martin      SG  32  TOT  50   995  11.4  .516	.313  .412  5.5  8.5   1.1  0.2  9.3  22.7  1.0  .050	-1.4   -3.4 -4.8 -0.7
18 Dion Waiters	     SG  24  OKC  71  1967  9.0   .490	.338  .204  5.1	 9.4   1.8  0.5  13.4 17.4  1.8  .044	-1.7   -0.6 -2.4 -0.2
19 Jordan Clarkson   SG  23  LAL  72  2315  14.5  .515	.277  .190  6.6  14.2  1.7  0.2  10.1 22.9  2.0  .041    0.6   -2.1 -1.5  0.3
20 Markel Brown      SG  24  BRK  54   772  10.9  .510	.398  .343  6.3  13.6  1.8  0.7  12.8 18.1  0.6  .040	-1.1   -1.9 -3.0 -0.2
21 Gerald Green      SG  30  MIA  62  1438  9.2   .480	.443  .158  6.0  5.7   1.1  1.0  7.5  19.6  1.1  .037	-1.8   -1.7 -3.5 -0.5
22 Sasha Vujacic     SG  31  NYK  55   745  9.4   .463	.509  .147  8.8  13.9  2.1  0.3  13.4 16.7  0.5  .030	-1.8   -0.7 -2.5 -0.1
23 Randy Foye        SG  32  TOT  74  1500  7.6   .458	.532  .151  5.5  14.3  1.2  1.3  14.0 15.7  0.4  .013	-2.2   -1.3 -3.4 -0.5
24 O.J. Mayo         SG  28  MIL  41  1090  7.7   .474	.505  .125  5.5  15.9  2.2  0.6  17.5 17.0 -0.1	-0.004	-1.9   -1.5 -3.4 -0.4

nixluva wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

martin wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:If you're going to overpay no matter who you sign, I think it might make sense to go after a young player. Crabbe isn't going to outrank Lillard or McCollum so I do think Portland would be less likely to match. What scares me is that he looks like an average player. I hope we can employ the cash more effectively

Well I guess it would be a theory that the guy just turned 24 is on an upswing in his game--his efficient in what he does and can grow with the team. To say were getting a star player--thats a tough sell. I think that we can win by getting a lot of good players who are efficient who can spread the floor who have different skill sets which will work in a cumulative team fashion. I think we made some progress using this in last free agency--we got 3 players who helped. Our stars have to be KP and Carmelo if he stays and the more efficient we can become--the better everything will work.

I don't disagree with you. He could get better. But I don't see anything that makes me think that he's anything more than an average player. What does Crabbe do at an above average level?

And that's the rub. Pretty much every FA the Knicks go after this summer will be for a projection of what that player COULD be down the line.

I'm more in favor of something like this if you can say something like, "Crabbe is a young guy that hasn't put it all together yet BUT he is a an above average (1) shooter, (2) passer, or (3) defender etc." At least you could argue that Landry Fields was an elite rebounder at his position or that Marco Belinelli could stroke it...

I'm not going to claim to be a Crabbe expert so that's why I'm asking. I would not be opposed to a signing like this but I want to see the growth potential a la Derrick Williams

I post the Win Share 48 List here to show where the guys like Crabbe sit currently. Also Tyler Johnson, Ian Clark and Troy Daniels are also guys to keep in mind.

Rk Player            Pos Age Tm   G   MP    PER   TS%   3PAr  FTr   TRB% AST%  STL% BLK% TOV% USG%  WS   WS/48 ▾ OBPM  DBPM  BPM  VORP
01 Mike Conley	     PG  28  MEM  56  1760  19.4  .538  .309  .329  5.3  32.9  2.0  0.8  9.5  22.6  5.4  .147    3.7   -1.9  1.7  1.7
02 D.J. Augustin     PG  28  TOT  56  1061  14.3  .582  .479  .371  4.6	 25.1  1.6  0.2  16.5 17.8  2.6  .120    1.3   -2.6 -1.3  0.2
03 Ramon Sessions    PG  29  WAS  75  1469  15.0  .556	.186  .498  7.0  19.3  1.4  0.3  13.6 21.7  2.9  .095	-0.9   -1.4 -2.3 -0.1
04 Brandon Jennings  PG  26  TOT  44   799  14.1  .495  .514  .269  6.3  28.8  1.6  0.6  13.8 20.4  1.5  .090    0.7   -1.7 -1.0  0.2
05 Rajon Rondo	     PG  29  SAC  70  2466  16.8  .504  .218  .189  9.2  47.9  2.7  0.3  25.0 18.8  4.4  .085    0.7    0.2  0.9  1.8
06 Donald Sloan      PG  28  BRK  54  1164  13.8  .540	.285  .325  7.9  29.0  1.3  0.2  18.2 15.9  1.7  .072	-0.4   -1.7 -2.1  0.0
Rk Player            Pos Age Tm   G   MP    PER   TS%   3PAr  FTr   TRB% AST%  STL% BLK% TOV% USG%  WS   WS/48 ▾ OBPM  DBPM  BPM  VORP
07 Isaiah Canaan     PG  24  PHI  74  1880  10.9  .527  .671  .248  4.8  11.3  1.4  0.4  10.6 19.8  1.3  .034    0.1   -2.9 -2.8 -0.4
08 Ish Smith         PG  27  TOT  70  1993  15.3  .460	.161  .181  7.5  39.4  2.0  0.7  13.8 24.4  1.2  .028	-0.4   -1.0 -1.4  0.3
09 Ty Lawson         PG  28  TOT  59  1257  9.5   .485	.319  .256  4.3  23.2  1.9  0.4  19.8 14.9  0.6  .024	-2.7   -2.1 -4.8 -0.9
10 Norris Cole	     PG  27  NOP  45  1198  10.9  .465	.211  .134  7.0  22.1  1.5  0.3  12.8 21.7  0.0	-0.002	-2.3   -1.2 -3.5 -0.5
11 Greivis Vasquez   PG  29  MIL  17   374   8.8  .456	.482  .219  6.1  28.9  1.1  0.0  19.9 18.8 -0.1	-0.009	-2.3   -3.7 -6.0 -0.4
Rk Player            Pos Age Tm   G   MP    PER   TS%   3PAr  FTr   TRB% AST%  STL% BLK% TOV% USG%  WS   WS/48 ▾ OBPM  DBPM  BPM  VORP
01 Kevin Durant      SF  27  OKC  67  2403  28.1  .634	.339  .359  12.6 24.0  1.3  2.6  13.5 30.4  13.5 .269	 6.8    1.0  7.8  6.0
02 Luol Deng         SF  30  MIA  66  2117  14.9  .545	.345  .267  10.3 8.4   1.6   1.0 8.3  17.4  5.6  .128	 1.1    0.5  1.6  1.9
03 Michael Beasley   SF  27  HOU  13   257  22.6  .572	.054  .209  14.6 6.8   1.5  2.6  9.5  30.0  0.6  .114	-1.4   -2.9 -4.3 -0.1
04 Harrison Barnes   SF  23  GSW  59  1812  12.0  .544	.316  .225  8.5  8.1   1.1  0.4  7.4  15.8  4.3  .113	 0.1   -0.5 -0.4  0.7
05 Evan Fournier     SF  23  ORL  71  2277  14.4  .579	.425  .249  4.9  12.7  1.9  0.1  10.8 19.7  5.0  .106	 1.9   -1.4  0.6  1.5
06 Solomon Hill      SF  24  IND  51   660  10.7  .499	.326  .243  10.0 9.6   1.9  1.2  11.1 12.0  1.4  .105	-2.0	1.3 -0.7  0.2
07 Kent Bazemore     SF  26  ATL  70  1935  12.9  .547	.416  .206  9.6  12.1  2.2  1.3  14.4 19.8  3.5  .088	-1.4    1.3 -0.1  0.9
08 Maurice Harkless  SF  22  POR  71  1263  12.6  .544	.353  .274  9.9  7.0   1.5  1.7  12.9 15.3  2.3  .086	-0.8    0.0 -0.9  0.4
09 Chase Budinger    SF  27  TOT  60   865  10.6  .506	.366  .223  8.9  9.6   1.7  0.8  13.1 14.3  1.4	 .075	-2.1    0.3 -1.7  0.1
Rk Player            Pos Age Tm   G   MP    PER   TS%   3PAr  FTr   TRB% AST%  STL% BLK% TOV% USG%  WS   WS/48 ▾ OBPM  DBPM  BPM  VORP
10 Jeff Green        SF  29  TOT  72  2052  12.9  .512	.259  .265  8.5	 10.0  1.3  1.5  9.3  19.8  2.9  .069	-1.0   -0.7 -1.6  0.2
11 Garrett Temple    SF  29  WAS  73  1812  9.1   .518  .511  .246  6.0  9.7   1.7  0.7  9.4  13.9  2.5  .065	-1.0    0.0 -1.0  0.4
12 Lance Thomas      SF  27  NYK  59  1313  10.5  .557	.285  .312  5.5  6.4   0.9  0.4  11.6 16.9  1.7  .061	-1.1   -2.1 -3.2 -0.4
13 Jarell Eddie      SF  24  WAS  22    99  10.8  .492	.791  .093  8.0  3.0   1.0  0.8  2.2  20.3  0.1  .047	-1.3   -4.3 -5.6 -0.1
14 Cleanthony Early  SF  24  NYK  11	34  7.0   .583	.667  .000  3.2  4.4   1.5  2.2  14.3 9.3   0.0  .042	-2.8   -0.6 -3.3  0.0
15 Sergey Karasev    SF  22  BRK  38   366  8.9   .584	.515  .379  7.7  10.6  0.8  0.4  19.8 11.8  0.3  .040	-2.2   -1.8 -4.0 -0.2
16 P.J. Hairston     SF  23  TOT  62  1251  7.0   .473  .590  .158  7.2  4.5   1.2  0.7  8.7  16.2  0.7  .025	-2.6   -1.4 -3.9 -0.6

Rk Player            Pos Age Tm   G   MP    PER   TS%   3PAr  FTr   TRB% AST%  STL% BLK% TOV% USG%  WS   WS/48 ▾ OBPM  DBPM  BPM  VORP
01 DeMar DeRozan     SG  26  TOR  73  2640  21.5  .551	.102  .483  7.0  20.4  1.5  0.7  9.5  29.7  9.3  .169	 2.6   -1.2  1.4  2.3
02 Tyler Johnson     SG  23  MIA  36   863  13.8  .581  .289  .264  7.2  14.1  1.4  1.3  14.8 16.8  2.1  .114    0.4    0.1  0.5  0.5
03 Troy Daniels      SG  24  CHO  39   386  14.7  .613  .626  .058  6.8  7.2   1.0  0.6  10.2 20.7  0.8  .105	 1.1   -2.8 -1.7  0.0
04 Nicolas Batum     SG  27  CHO  65  2317  15.8  .549  .460  .226  9.7  26.5  1.3  1.5  17.7 21.3  4.9  .101    1.2    1.1  2.3  2.5	
05 Leandro Barbosa   SG  33  GSW  62   980  12.1  .545  .297  .182  5.6  11.4  2.1  0.7  11.3 18.2  0.9	 .099	-1.0   -0.9 -1.9  0.0	
06 Allen Crabbe      SG  23  POR  74  1925  12.2  .568  .416  .158  5.6  7.2   1.5  0.6  8.1  16.6  3.9  .098    0.3   -1.1 -0.8  0.6
07 Brandon Rush      SG  30  GSW  65   990  10.3  .556	.593  .114  9.1  7.3   1.0  1.5  10.1 12.5  1.9  .093	-1.1   -0.1 -1.2  0.2
08 Evan Turner       SG  27  BOS  74  2051  13.6  .507  .114  .237  9.4  24.0  1.7  0.9  16.7 18.5  3.7  .086	-2.0    1.3 -0.7  0.7
09 Courtney Lee	     SG	 30  TOT  71  2088  12.0  .566	.341  .195  4.9  8.9   1.8  1.0	 9.8  14.9  2.2	 .086	-0.2   -0.3 -0.5  0.8
Rk Player            Pos Age Tm   G   MP    PER   TS%   3PAr  FTr   TRB% AST%  STL% BLK% TOV% USG%  WS   WS/48 ▾ OBPM  DBPM  BPM  VORP
10 Ian Clark         SG  24  GSW  61   556  12.0  .549	.415  .170  6.5  15.6  1.4  1.6  16.3 19.9  0.9  .080	-1.5   -1.3 -2.9 -0.1
11 Bradley Beal      SG  22  WAS  50  1554  15.6  .547  .336  .219  6.2  15.5  1.5  0.5  11.1 25.4  2.5  .076    1.0   -1.7 -0.8  0.5
12 Jerryd Bayless    SG  27  MIL  52  1505  12.5  .568	.529  .206  5.3  16.2  1.6  0.6  13.3 16.5  2.4  .076	 1.1   -2.1 -1.0  0.4
13 E'Twaun Moore     SG  26  CHI  56  1182  11.5  .553  .263  .096  5.5  11.9  1.4  1.0  11.8 15.9  1.8  .074	-1.1   -0.6 -1.7  0.1
14 Eric Gordon       SG  27  NOP  45  1481  13.6  .565  .533  .226  3.7  12.8  1.4  0.8  10.7 20.3  2.2  .072    1.7   -2.0 -0.3  0.6
15 Gerald Henderson  SG  28  POR  66  1290  13.0  .527  .268  .272  8.3  7.8   1.3  1.2	 10.0 20.0  1.9  .071	-2.0   -1.3 -3.3 -0.4
Rk Player            Pos Age Tm   G   MP    PER   TS%   3PAr  FTr   TRB% AST%  STL% BLK% TOV% USG%  WS   WS/48 ▾ OBPM  DBPM  BPM  VORP
16 Arron Afflalo     SG  30  NYK  65  2200  11.1  .534	.294  .168  6.1  9.8   0.5  0.3  8.8  18.1  2.5  .055	-0.5   -1.8 -2.3 -0.2
17 Kevin Martin      SG  32  TOT  50   995  11.4  .516	.313  .412  5.5  8.5   1.1  0.2  9.3  22.7  1.0  .050	-1.4   -3.4 -4.8 -0.7
18 Dion Waiters	     SG  24  OKC  71  1967  9.0   .490	.338  .204  5.1	 9.4   1.8  0.5  13.4 17.4  1.8  .044	-1.7   -0.6 -2.4 -0.2
19 Jordan Clarkson   SG  23  LAL  72  2315  14.5  .515	.277  .190  6.6  14.2  1.7  0.2  10.1 22.9  2.0  .041    0.6   -2.1 -1.5  0.3
20 Markel Brown      SG  24  BRK  54   772  10.9  .510	.398  .343  6.3  13.6  1.8  0.7  12.8 18.1  0.6  .040	-1.1   -1.9 -3.0 -0.2
21 Gerald Green      SG  30  MIA  62  1438  9.2   .480	.443  .158  6.0  5.7   1.1  1.0  7.5  19.6  1.1  .037	-1.8   -1.7 -3.5 -0.5
22 Sasha Vujacic     SG  31  NYK  55   745  9.4   .463	.509  .147  8.8  13.9  2.1  0.3  13.4 16.7  0.5  .030	-1.8   -0.7 -2.5 -0.1
23 Randy Foye        SG  32  TOT  74  1500  7.6   .458	.532  .151  5.5  14.3  1.2  1.3  14.0 15.7  0.4  .013	-2.2   -1.3 -3.4 -0.5
24 O.J. Mayo         SG  28  MIL  41  1090  7.7   .474	.505  .125  5.5  15.9  2.2  0.6  17.5 17.0 -0.1	-0.004	-1.9   -1.5 -3.4 -0.4

This is a really great list. It definitely puts Crabbe in perspective and he is't a bad player player and holds his own stat wise with other Starter Quality/roleplayer SG. Another name I highlighted is Solomon Hill. He also looks like he could be a a steal based on his production/skill and the fact that beyond 2.5 million the Pacers won't be able to match any offer he takes.

wargames wrote:

nixluva wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

martin wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:If you're going to overpay no matter who you sign, I think it might make sense to go after a young player. Crabbe isn't going to outrank Lillard or McCollum so I do think Portland would be less likely to match. What scares me is that he looks like an average player. I hope we can employ the cash more effectively

Well I guess it would be a theory that the guy just turned 24 is on an upswing in his game--his efficient in what he does and can grow with the team. To say were getting a star player--thats a tough sell. I think that we can win by getting a lot of good players who are efficient who can spread the floor who have different skill sets which will work in a cumulative team fashion. I think we made some progress using this in last free agency--we got 3 players who helped. Our stars have to be KP and Carmelo if he stays and the more efficient we can become--the better everything will work.

I don't disagree with you. He could get better. But I don't see anything that makes me think that he's anything more than an average player. What does Crabbe do at an above average level?

And that's the rub. Pretty much every FA the Knicks go after this summer will be for a projection of what that player COULD be down the line.

I'm more in favor of something like this if you can say something like, "Crabbe is a young guy that hasn't put it all together yet BUT he is a an above average (1) shooter, (2) passer, or (3) defender etc." At least you could argue that Landry Fields was an elite rebounder at his position or that Marco Belinelli could stroke it...

I'm not going to claim to be a Crabbe expert so that's why I'm asking. I would not be opposed to a signing like this but I want to see the growth potential a la Derrick Williams

I post the Win Share 48 List here to show where the guys like Crabbe sit currently. Also Tyler Johnson, Ian Clark and Troy Daniels are also guys to keep in mind.

Rk Player            Pos Age Tm   G   MP    PER   TS%   3PAr  FTr   TRB% AST%  STL% BLK% TOV% USG%  WS   WS/48 ▾ OBPM  DBPM  BPM  VORP
01 Mike Conley	     PG  28  MEM  56  1760  19.4  .538  .309  .329  5.3  32.9  2.0  0.8  9.5  22.6  5.4  .147    3.7   -1.9  1.7  1.7
02 D.J. Augustin     PG  28  TOT  56  1061  14.3  .582  .479  .371  4.6	 25.1  1.6  0.2  16.5 17.8  2.6  .120    1.3   -2.6 -1.3  0.2
03 Ramon Sessions    PG  29  WAS  75  1469  15.0  .556	.186  .498  7.0  19.3  1.4  0.3  13.6 21.7  2.9  .095	-0.9   -1.4 -2.3 -0.1
04 Brandon Jennings  PG  26  TOT  44   799  14.1  .495  .514  .269  6.3  28.8  1.6  0.6  13.8 20.4  1.5  .090    0.7   -1.7 -1.0  0.2
05 Rajon Rondo	     PG  29  SAC  70  2466  16.8  .504  .218  .189  9.2  47.9  2.7  0.3  25.0 18.8  4.4  .085    0.7    0.2  0.9  1.8
06 Donald Sloan      PG  28  BRK  54  1164  13.8  .540	.285  .325  7.9  29.0  1.3  0.2  18.2 15.9  1.7  .072	-0.4   -1.7 -2.1  0.0
Rk Player            Pos Age Tm   G   MP    PER   TS%   3PAr  FTr   TRB% AST%  STL% BLK% TOV% USG%  WS   WS/48 ▾ OBPM  DBPM  BPM  VORP
07 Isaiah Canaan     PG  24  PHI  74  1880  10.9  .527  .671  .248  4.8  11.3  1.4  0.4  10.6 19.8  1.3  .034    0.1   -2.9 -2.8 -0.4
08 Ish Smith         PG  27  TOT  70  1993  15.3  .460	.161  .181  7.5  39.4  2.0  0.7  13.8 24.4  1.2  .028	-0.4   -1.0 -1.4  0.3
09 Ty Lawson         PG  28  TOT  59  1257  9.5   .485	.319  .256  4.3  23.2  1.9  0.4  19.8 14.9  0.6  .024	-2.7   -2.1 -4.8 -0.9
10 Norris Cole	     PG  27  NOP  45  1198  10.9  .465	.211  .134  7.0  22.1  1.5  0.3  12.8 21.7  0.0	-0.002	-2.3   -1.2 -3.5 -0.5
11 Greivis Vasquez   PG  29  MIL  17   374   8.8  .456	.482  .219  6.1  28.9  1.1  0.0  19.9 18.8 -0.1	-0.009	-2.3   -3.7 -6.0 -0.4
Rk Player            Pos Age Tm   G   MP    PER   TS%   3PAr  FTr   TRB% AST%  STL% BLK% TOV% USG%  WS   WS/48 ▾ OBPM  DBPM  BPM  VORP
01 Kevin Durant      SF  27  OKC  67  2403  28.1  .634	.339  .359  12.6 24.0  1.3  2.6  13.5 30.4  13.5 .269	 6.8    1.0  7.8  6.0
02 Luol Deng         SF  30  MIA  66  2117  14.9  .545	.345  .267  10.3 8.4   1.6   1.0 8.3  17.4  5.6  .128	 1.1    0.5  1.6  1.9
03 Michael Beasley   SF  27  HOU  13   257  22.6  .572	.054  .209  14.6 6.8   1.5  2.6  9.5  30.0  0.6  .114	-1.4   -2.9 -4.3 -0.1
04 Harrison Barnes   SF  23  GSW  59  1812  12.0  .544	.316  .225  8.5  8.1   1.1  0.4  7.4  15.8  4.3  .113	 0.1   -0.5 -0.4  0.7
05 Evan Fournier     SF  23  ORL  71  2277  14.4  .579	.425  .249  4.9  12.7  1.9  0.1  10.8 19.7  5.0  .106	 1.9   -1.4  0.6  1.5
06 Solomon Hill      SF  24  IND  51   660  10.7  .499	.326  .243  10.0 9.6   1.9  1.2  11.1 12.0  1.4  .105	-2.0	1.3 -0.7  0.2
07 Kent Bazemore     SF  26  ATL  70  1935  12.9  .547	.416  .206  9.6  12.1  2.2  1.3  14.4 19.8  3.5  .088	-1.4    1.3 -0.1  0.9
08 Maurice Harkless  SF  22  POR  71  1263  12.6  .544	.353  .274  9.9  7.0   1.5  1.7  12.9 15.3  2.3  .086	-0.8    0.0 -0.9  0.4
09 Chase Budinger    SF  27  TOT  60   865  10.6  .506	.366  .223  8.9  9.6   1.7  0.8  13.1 14.3  1.4	 .075	-2.1    0.3 -1.7  0.1
Rk Player            Pos Age Tm   G   MP    PER   TS%   3PAr  FTr   TRB% AST%  STL% BLK% TOV% USG%  WS   WS/48 ▾ OBPM  DBPM  BPM  VORP
10 Jeff Green        SF  29  TOT  72  2052  12.9  .512	.259  .265  8.5	 10.0  1.3  1.5  9.3  19.8  2.9  .069	-1.0   -0.7 -1.6  0.2
11 Garrett Temple    SF  29  WAS  73  1812  9.1   .518  .511  .246  6.0  9.7   1.7  0.7  9.4  13.9  2.5  .065	-1.0    0.0 -1.0  0.4
12 Lance Thomas      SF  27  NYK  59  1313  10.5  .557	.285  .312  5.5  6.4   0.9  0.4  11.6 16.9  1.7  .061	-1.1   -2.1 -3.2 -0.4
13 Jarell Eddie      SF  24  WAS  22    99  10.8  .492	.791  .093  8.0  3.0   1.0  0.8  2.2  20.3  0.1  .047	-1.3   -4.3 -5.6 -0.1
14 Cleanthony Early  SF  24  NYK  11	34  7.0   .583	.667  .000  3.2  4.4   1.5  2.2  14.3 9.3   0.0  .042	-2.8   -0.6 -3.3  0.0
15 Sergey Karasev    SF  22  BRK  38   366  8.9   .584	.515  .379  7.7  10.6  0.8  0.4  19.8 11.8  0.3  .040	-2.2   -1.8 -4.0 -0.2
16 P.J. Hairston     SF  23  TOT  62  1251  7.0   .473  .590  .158  7.2  4.5   1.2  0.7  8.7  16.2  0.7  .025	-2.6   -1.4 -3.9 -0.6

Rk Player            Pos Age Tm   G   MP    PER   TS%   3PAr  FTr   TRB% AST%  STL% BLK% TOV% USG%  WS   WS/48 ▾ OBPM  DBPM  BPM  VORP
01 DeMar DeRozan     SG  26  TOR  73  2640  21.5  .551	.102  .483  7.0  20.4  1.5  0.7  9.5  29.7  9.3  .169	 2.6   -1.2  1.4  2.3
02 Tyler Johnson     SG  23  MIA  36   863  13.8  .581  .289  .264  7.2  14.1  1.4  1.3  14.8 16.8  2.1  .114    0.4    0.1  0.5  0.5
03 Troy Daniels      SG  24  CHO  39   386  14.7  .613  .626  .058  6.8  7.2   1.0  0.6  10.2 20.7  0.8  .105	 1.1   -2.8 -1.7  0.0
04 Nicolas Batum     SG  27  CHO  65  2317  15.8  .549  .460  .226  9.7  26.5  1.3  1.5  17.7 21.3  4.9  .101    1.2    1.1  2.3  2.5	
05 Leandro Barbosa   SG  33  GSW  62   980  12.1  .545  .297  .182  5.6  11.4  2.1  0.7  11.3 18.2  0.9	 .099	-1.0   -0.9 -1.9  0.0	
06 Allen Crabbe      SG  23  POR  74  1925  12.2  .568  .416  .158  5.6  7.2   1.5  0.6  8.1  16.6  3.9  .098    0.3   -1.1 -0.8  0.6
07 Brandon Rush      SG  30  GSW  65   990  10.3  .556	.593  .114  9.1  7.3   1.0  1.5  10.1 12.5  1.9  .093	-1.1   -0.1 -1.2  0.2
08 Evan Turner       SG  27  BOS  74  2051  13.6  .507  .114  .237  9.4  24.0  1.7  0.9  16.7 18.5  3.7  .086	-2.0    1.3 -0.7  0.7
09 Courtney Lee	     SG	 30  TOT  71  2088  12.0  .566	.341  .195  4.9  8.9   1.8  1.0	 9.8  14.9  2.2	 .086	-0.2   -0.3 -0.5  0.8
Rk Player            Pos Age Tm   G   MP    PER   TS%   3PAr  FTr   TRB% AST%  STL% BLK% TOV% USG%  WS   WS/48 ▾ OBPM  DBPM  BPM  VORP
10 Ian Clark         SG  24  GSW  61   556  12.0  .549	.415  .170  6.5  15.6  1.4  1.6  16.3 19.9  0.9  .080	-1.5   -1.3 -2.9 -0.1
11 Bradley Beal      SG  22  WAS  50  1554  15.6  .547  .336  .219  6.2  15.5  1.5  0.5  11.1 25.4  2.5  .076    1.0   -1.7 -0.8  0.5
12 Jerryd Bayless    SG  27  MIL  52  1505  12.5  .568	.529  .206  5.3  16.2  1.6  0.6  13.3 16.5  2.4  .076	 1.1   -2.1 -1.0  0.4
13 E'Twaun Moore     SG  26  CHI  56  1182  11.5  .553  .263  .096  5.5  11.9  1.4  1.0  11.8 15.9  1.8  .074	-1.1   -0.6 -1.7  0.1
14 Eric Gordon       SG  27  NOP  45  1481  13.6  .565  .533  .226  3.7  12.8  1.4  0.8  10.7 20.3  2.2  .072    1.7   -2.0 -0.3  0.6
15 Gerald Henderson  SG  28  POR  66  1290  13.0  .527  .268  .272  8.3  7.8   1.3  1.2	 10.0 20.0  1.9  .071	-2.0   -1.3 -3.3 -0.4
Rk Player            Pos Age Tm   G   MP    PER   TS%   3PAr  FTr   TRB% AST%  STL% BLK% TOV% USG%  WS   WS/48 ▾ OBPM  DBPM  BPM  VORP
16 Arron Afflalo     SG  30  NYK  65  2200  11.1  .534	.294  .168  6.1  9.8   0.5  0.3  8.8  18.1  2.5  .055	-0.5   -1.8 -2.3 -0.2
17 Kevin Martin      SG  32  TOT  50   995  11.4  .516	.313  .412  5.5  8.5   1.1  0.2  9.3  22.7  1.0  .050	-1.4   -3.4 -4.8 -0.7
18 Dion Waiters	     SG  24  OKC  71  1967  9.0   .490	.338  .204  5.1	 9.4   1.8  0.5  13.4 17.4  1.8  .044	-1.7   -0.6 -2.4 -0.2
19 Jordan Clarkson   SG  23  LAL  72  2315  14.5  .515	.277  .190  6.6  14.2  1.7  0.2  10.1 22.9  2.0  .041    0.6   -2.1 -1.5  0.3
20 Markel Brown      SG  24  BRK  54   772  10.9  .510	.398  .343  6.3  13.6  1.8  0.7  12.8 18.1  0.6  .040	-1.1   -1.9 -3.0 -0.2
21 Gerald Green      SG  30  MIA  62  1438  9.2   .480	.443  .158  6.0  5.7   1.1  1.0  7.5  19.6  1.1  .037	-1.8   -1.7 -3.5 -0.5
22 Sasha Vujacic     SG  31  NYK  55   745  9.4   .463	.509  .147  8.8  13.9  2.1  0.3  13.4 16.7  0.5  .030	-1.8   -0.7 -2.5 -0.1
23 Randy Foye        SG  32  TOT  74  1500  7.6   .458	.532  .151  5.5  14.3  1.2  1.3  14.0 15.7  0.4  .013	-2.2   -1.3 -3.4 -0.5
24 O.J. Mayo         SG  28  MIL  41  1090  7.7   .474	.505  .125  5.5  15.9  2.2  0.6  17.5 17.0 -0.1	-0.004	-1.9   -1.5 -3.4 -0.4

This is a really great list. It definitely puts Crabbe in perspective and he is't a bad player player and holds his own stat wise with other Starter Quality/roleplayer SG. Another name I highlighted is Solomon Hill. He also looks like he could be a a steal based on his production/skill and the fact that beyond 2.5 million the Pacers won't be able to match any offer he takes.

I agree. Thank you nixluva

wargames wrote:

martin wrote:

wargames wrote:This is a really great list. It definitely puts Crabbe in perspective and he is't a bad player player and holds his own stat wise with other Starter Quality/roleplayer SG. Another name I highlighted is Solomon Hill. He also looks like he could be a a steal based on his production/skill and the fact that beyond 2.5 million the Pacers won't be able to match any offer he takes.

If the Knicks came away with Hill and Crabee, I'd be 100% satisfied. 3 year deals. Cap numbers are so whackey I wouldn't know where to start but something in the $5-7M and $8-10M range respectively.

I could see them paying a little more but yeah if D-Will and AA don't use their player options that would be a good strategy. If either or both opts out the knicks would then have an addition 13 million to resign guys like D-Will, Lance, Gallo, and Early while not going over the cap if that is the plan. Its not a beat the world team, but it potentially might be enough to go big game hunting in 2017. Even beyond PG's which is a need there are legit some guys who could come in and make the knicks contenders for the foreseeable future.

SupremeCommander wrote:

martin wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

martin wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:If you're going to overpay no matter who you sign, I think it might make sense to go after a young player. Crabbe isn't going to outrank Lillard or McCollum so I do think Portland would be less likely to match. What scares me is that he looks like an average player. I hope we can employ the cash more effectively

Well I guess it would be a theory that the guy just turned 24 is on an upswing in his game--his efficient in what he does and can grow with the team. To say were getting a star player--thats a tough sell. I think that we can win by getting a lot of good players who are efficient who can spread the floor who have different skill sets which will work in a cumulative team fashion. I think we made some progress using this in last free agency--we got 3 players who helped. Our stars have to be KP and Carmelo if he stays and the more efficient we can become--the better everything will work.

I don't disagree with you. He could get better. But I don't see anything that makes me think that he's anything more than an average player. What does Crabbe do at an above average level?

And that's the rub. Pretty much every FA the Knicks go after this summer will be for a projection of what that player COULD be down the line.

I'm more in favor of something like this if you can say something like, "Crabbe is a young guy that hasn't put it all together yet BUT he is a an above average (1) shooter, (2) passer, or (3) defender etc." At least you could argue that Landry Fields was an elite rebounder at his position or that Marco Belinelli could stroke it...

I'm not going to claim to be a Crabbe expert so that's why I'm asking. I would not be opposed to a signing like this but I want to see the growth potential a la Derrick Williams

Im definitely not the guy to do it cause I haven't seen him play enough but I always start here and loot at progression: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/crabbal01.html

Shooting across the table and from year to year is very good. 23 years old. Defensive stats are hard to come by and he is still non-starter, but his play has progressed.

more of a question for the board... as I've said previously, I would be pumped with an offseason equivalent to Childs and H20. That requires taking a chance on younger guys--just want it to be the right younger guys. Childs was a heralded defender and H20 had a sweet stroke when we signed them but it was still taking a chance...

My struggle with Crabbe is that I haven't seen him play that much and his PER is 12.26. He'll probably get better and the WS nix posted is impressive. What number is right? I don't know. That's why I want someone to say "this skillset is above average and here's why I think he'll live up to or even exceed his contract"

Its not that good of a FA. A lot of guys are going to be overpaid because their is money available and teams will try to improve upon themselves even if that means using their money foolishly. The best thing I think the knicks could do is be frugal in shoring up their obvious holes in the back court (Wroten, some under the radar cheap RFA's) and wait until the much superior 2017 FA class. If the goal is to tank its doable, if the goal is make a playoff push its the same deal. The knicks should look to rebuild using a money ball type strategy

SupremeCommander wrote:

martin wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

martin wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:If you're going to overpay no matter who you sign, I think it might make sense to go after a young player. Crabbe isn't going to outrank Lillard or McCollum so I do think Portland would be less likely to match. What scares me is that he looks like an average player. I hope we can employ the cash more effectively

Well I guess it would be a theory that the guy just turned 24 is on an upswing in his game--his efficient in what he does and can grow with the team. To say were getting a star player--thats a tough sell. I think that we can win by getting a lot of good players who are efficient who can spread the floor who have different skill sets which will work in a cumulative team fashion. I think we made some progress using this in last free agency--we got 3 players who helped. Our stars have to be KP and Carmelo if he stays and the more efficient we can become--the better everything will work.

I don't disagree with you. He could get better. But I don't see anything that makes me think that he's anything more than an average player. What does Crabbe do at an above average level?

And that's the rub. Pretty much every FA the Knicks go after this summer will be for a projection of what that player COULD be down the line.

I'm more in favor of something like this if you can say something like, "Crabbe is a young guy that hasn't put it all together yet BUT he is a an above average (1) shooter, (2) passer, or (3) defender etc." At least you could argue that Landry Fields was an elite rebounder at his position or that Marco Belinelli could stroke it...

I'm not going to claim to be a Crabbe expert so that's why I'm asking. I would not be opposed to a signing like this but I want to see the growth potential a la Derrick Williams

Im definitely not the guy to do it cause I haven't seen him play enough but I always start here and loot at progression: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/crabbal01.html

Shooting across the table and from year to year is very good. 23 years old. Defensive stats are hard to come by and he is still non-starter, but his play has progressed.

more of a question for the board... as I've said previously, I would be pumped with an offseason equivalent to Childs and H20. That requires taking a chance on younger guys--just want it to be the right younger guys. Childs was a heralded defender and H20 had a sweet stroke when we signed them but it was still taking a chance...

My struggle with Crabbe is that I haven't seen him play that much and his PER is 12.26. He'll probably get better and the WS nix posted is impressive. What number is right? I don't know. That's why I want someone to say "this skillset is above average and here's why I think he'll live up to or even exceed his contract"

If you are looking for an Allan Houston type, the closest thing out there is Evan Fournier, who is young and a pure shooter, but can also break down off the dribble. It will take a big contract to steal him from Orlando, but i think he is get-able.

Question for Wargames -- you mentioned Indy may not be able to match any offer for Hill over $2.5mm per. Is that true? I'd love to believe that. Tell me what your thinking is on that.

Finestrg wrote:I like Crabbe. I think he's a fine player--a good young contributor on a playoff team. He'd be a good addition -- I just don't know if we should pay $10mm a pop for him on a long-term deal. Don't know if that's in our best interest--not when we have other positions to reinforce. Solomon Hill's out there and he's unrestricted. I think I like Hill's game better in the long run--I see a higher ceiling and he might cost half what Crabbe gets. Thing with Hill -- I read that he likes it in Indy. He knows they drafted him and gave him his chance in the NBA, he likes his teammates and he likes Vogel. After reading all that, I didn't think we could get him anymore but if we got Vogel, that could change. We need a head coach anyway and this guy's a good one--someone who would outlast Phil in NY imo--a guy I'd want here after Phil packs it in. I think getting Vogel improves out chances of getting Hill--that's potential a big plus I'd be looking to exploit right now. Kill two birds with one stone here I'm thinking.. And if they really want Crabbe, I would hope they're looking at other players who would cost less that have very similar games. PJ Hairston's one option. I think he might have even better 3&D potential than Crabbe and he'd cost less. Heck, I think Terrico White might be better than Crabbe and we can get that dude for the minimum.

Question for Wargames -- you mentioned Indy may not be able to match any offer for Hill over $2.5mm per. Is that true? I'd love to believe that. Tell me what your thinking is on that.

They can't. When I was reading up on Vogel I found out that apparently Bird didn't take Hill's 4th year option and they are currently capped out. All they can bid on him is 2.5 mil. Its a bit of a fiasco for Indy fans because he is a Draymond Green'esque player they need to have a small ball system and they know they are going to lose him.

Also I like the idea of taking a flyer on Hairston as well, though I am pretty sure Phil can get him too for dirt cheap. He is the definition of a flyer contract that can either accept the minimum from a team or just as easily end up out of the league.