newyorknewyork wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

Once the playoffs became unrealistic a smartly run team would have preserved Melo, experimented with an offense revolving around Porzingis and Grant’s skills, and used two or three roster spots to try to find cheap talent to add to the team gong forward.

Preserve Melo for what? Another 29 win Larry Brown season? Hey, Mr. aptly named BGibberman, welcome to New York City, where we have all the patience of a microwave with the runs. Where every other line in every rag in this city is "THIRD YEAR WITHOUT THE PLAYOFFS". I love this line of logic. Preserve Melo, like adopting the Popovich approach is going to suddenly make Melo more attractive to other teams. "Hey look, our hands down best player is now going to sit the bench two or three times a week, and we're also instituting a nice minutes restriction! But please, don't take that to mean he's not worth that huge investment we made in him! Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled first round draft picks....pretty please...?"

Grant's skills? What exactly are those at this point? Being 6'6" with a fine lineage?

Preserve Melo for the physical for when we trade him after he waives his No Trade Clause.

are you confident that the kknicks can trade melo into something better..give me a time in the last 2 decades, that the knicks made a good move, trading their best player usually results in a even more fck up contract, weak role players, and garbage draft picks like nate robinson, ariza, sweetney, frye..oh gosh the list will never end

It's not about getting equal value at this point, his trade value is rapidly diminishing by the day. It's about getting something before it equals nothing and before he experiences a career ending injury, which is very possible.

We're not winning a championship during Melo's remaining 3 years, this is already fact. We may not even make the playoffs in 3 years, this is debatable, but not far off since the rest of the East has gotten better.

We need to move on, and acquire young talent, hungry vets, and hit home runs in the draft. We show steady improvement with KP, add some studs in the lottery hopefully, then swing for the fences with key free agents in 2018 and beyond.

That's what it's all about right now.

Doesn't matter what route we take, we all depend on the same amount of luck and hope. As shown in the other thread, I can sell just as many dreams. Knicks need to put more focus on being a stable org rather then one changing Directions, Players, Coaches, GMs, Prez every couple of yrs.

What your proposing is what every team in the league who goes full rebuild tries to accomplish. What is the success rate though?

Wariors, Spurs, Heat, Mavs, Lakers, Celtics, Pistons have won the championships over the last 10-11yrs. How many of them followed this plan of to winning a championship?

Warriors - Curry, Thompson, Green, Barnes

Spurs - Duncan, Manu, Parker, Kawhi

Lakers - Kobe, Bynum and then went after free agents

Celtics - Pierce endured several long years in Boston, before they mortgaged several of their young talent and picks for Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen, then proceeded to draft a gem in Rondo

In fact, if Melo's amenable, he should take a page out of KG's playbook since he was also 31 at the time he was traded to Celtics. It's Melo only real shot at winning.

Long story short, besides the few instances in Detroit and Miami superfriending, you need some draft studs and young assets before you can either sprinkle free agents to get there or make a blockbuster trade.

Knicks only have 1 young stud asset. Need to accumulate more.

None of these teams went the *route* you are talking about to acquire these players.

Warriors traded us Al Harrington for Jamal Crawford and Signed Corey Maggette to pair with Monta Ellis, Steven Jackson and Biendrins under Don Nelson. They then landed Curry after Ellis got injured and played only 25 games. They then cleared Cap Space by trading Crawford and Jackson to sign and trade for David Lee to put next to the Ellis, Curry, Maggette, Biendrins hoping that would be a playoff team.

Manu was a 2nd rd pick, Parker was the last pick in the first round. Kawahi was #15 (all these were mid to late picks which you stated and I quote were "shytty")

Kobe was the #13th pick in the draft to boost a mediocre team. No tanking required. Bynum was the #10th pick to boost a mediocre team and was more of a high level role player anyway.

Al Jefferson #17th "shytty" draft pick, Gerald Green #18th "shytty" draft pick, Ryan Gomes 2nd rd pick, Telfair #13 thrown in prospect who they traded for a yr prior from Portland. And 2 future first round draft picks plus Theo Ratliff. None of these pieces that were moved in the trade required tanking to acquire.

If you don't want the Knicks to go the draft route, which all these teams core players came from, what do you propose?

Free agency? A couple of band aid players to pair with Melo during his decline to hopefully squeeze in as an 8th seed during his last couple seasons in New York?

We need to get lucky in the draft, simple and plain. We need our own 2017 pick to be a lottery pick and when we need to acquire more young talent, either picks or young free agents under 25 that could stick. It's the only way.

Ive defended most of the roster moves because other than signing Melo, Phil hasnt had much room to maneuver. When Phil was hired I wrote of two concerns, one was an over reliance on the Triangle, and Phil stepping too far away from the day to day operations of the team and not making the best use of his legendary status in the NBA with players. Both my concerns have turned out to be valid IMO.

Some have suggested that most presidents dont play such a visible role in day to day operations, and that would be right. Its also true that the Knicks paid Jackson an exorbitant amount of money in large part for his reputation and the hope that players will come to NY to be part of his plan. Phil said he's changing his approach with Rambis, but he's said that after every season.

KP or no KP, another season with one of Phil's decaying tree of coaching disciples (Walton excluded), and Phil staying in the shadows, isnt going to attract big time FAs or put this team on the right path because the second Phil is gone, so is the Triangle.

mreinman wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

mreinman wrote:splendid and dead on article. Been saying this sh1t for how long? Geeeeez. We are back to clogging the paint and letting threes rain and sh1t ... puhhhhrfukked.

It was also obvious that Fisher was trying to go more pnr and phil said not on my fukking triangle watch.

pretty clear no matter how many times nixluva says "wroten blah blah" that phil has no idea wtf he is doing and is obviously no GM and certainly not a GM with an eye for todays game.

This team is not as bad as he is making them. Clap clap clap. Legacy = tainted.

Can he fix this? Sure. Allow steve mills to run the show (geeeeeeeez how sad is that), hire a top non triangle-putz coach, and stick to instagram.

This entire post is the reason I hate all "knicks" fans nowadays.

Fisher was not trying to add pick and roll to the triangle. It's already in the triangle. Fishers offense doesn't look any different than what we are doing now. Guys just want to make that point stock just to further slander the "triangle". Truth is you don't even know what an nba offense is. "More modern offense" is the new catch phrase now that golden state is on top. How do you use that to fuel the argument that 2 years as a knicks GM tarnished a 20 year domination of the nba winning 11 championships. It's garbage.

the only argument you can make is Phil can't get talent here. That's not entirely his fault. Players don't want to come here. They would rather sign with other teams and come off the bench than come here and start. That's not because of the triangle. Is because of the media, ignorant fans and piss poor ownership. Who wants to deal with that stufff on purpose when you can go to basically any other team and won with less of a headache?

Anyway this is by far the best shape we have been in as a franchise since Ewing was drafted or the summer we signed Allan Houston. The thing is in those eras, players wantedito play on the Knicks. Guys wanted to sign here. We have to build that back up again. I think Phil is doing a great job cleaning up. I just think it's disgusting to have to argue that after all we've been through. Let fans tell it and you would think this is the worst time to ever be a knicks fan. We've definitely been through worse. We're actually on the come up. Yet here we are arguing about it

no ... you are the one who does not know what you are looking at.

As for the PnR stuff, it's hard to quantify the issue comparing Fish and Rambo. There's really not a whole lot of difference between the PnR or the Pinch Post 2 man game. The result can be pretty much the same. It's not so much which you use but who you have actually trying to run it. The reason the Knicks use the Pinch Post more than the PnR is based on the way they flow from Side Triangle. STILL you can run a 4 out PnR in the Triangle simply by bringing out the Post Man in the Side Triangle.

Rambis using Melo n RoLo PnR

another one

These are the same exact plays that Fisher was using with different players. They aren't anything unique in the Triangle. Just another action in the offense. There's really no need to ditch your entire SYSTEM for one PLAY in the system. The biggest issue is going to be having better guard play so that this team can defend the perimeter better, push the ball more often, create more drives in half court and hit shots at a higher %.

knicks1248 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

Once the playoffs became unrealistic a smartly run team would have preserved Melo, experimented with an offense revolving around Porzingis and Grant’s skills, and used two or three roster spots to try to find cheap talent to add to the team gong forward.

Preserve Melo for what? Another 29 win Larry Brown season? Hey, Mr. aptly named BGibberman, welcome to New York City, where we have all the patience of a microwave with the runs. Where every other line in every rag in this city is "THIRD YEAR WITHOUT THE PLAYOFFS". I love this line of logic. Preserve Melo, like adopting the Popovich approach is going to suddenly make Melo more attractive to other teams. "Hey look, our hands down best player is now going to sit the bench two or three times a week, and we're also instituting a nice minutes restriction! But please, don't take that to mean he's not worth that huge investment we made in him! Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled first round draft picks....pretty please...?"

Grant's skills? What exactly are those at this point? Being 6'6" with a fine lineage?

Preserve Melo for the physical for when we trade him after he waives his No Trade Clause.

are you confident that the kknicks can trade melo into something better..give me a time in the last 2 decades, that the knicks made a good move, trading their best player usually results in a even more fck up contract, weak role players, and garbage draft picks like nate robinson, ariza, sweetney, frye..oh gosh the list will never end

It's not about getting equal value at this point, his trade value is rapidly diminishing by the day. It's about getting something before it equals nothing and before he experiences a career ending injury, which is very possible.

We're not winning a championship during Melo's remaining 3 years, this is already fact. We may not even make the playoffs in 3 years, this is debatable, but not far off since the rest of the East has gotten better.

We need to move on, and acquire young talent, hungry vets, and hit home runs in the draft. We show steady improvement with KP, add some studs in the lottery hopefully, then swing for the fences with key free agents in 2018 and beyond.

That's what it's all about right now.

What's funny is that you keep talking a player we should trade who's hell bent on staying here, and has a NTC..like Theresa 2% chance of him being traded b4 that contract is up..

Wouldn't it make more sense to talk about who we need to get.. Smh

We need to amass draft picks somehow is the whole point, especially since we're without one this year. Whether we're able to move him or not is irrelevant at this point. No matter which 2nd or 3rd tier free agent we get this offseason, we're not competing at a high level for awhile. I think Melo is starting to see this, so the hope as Knicks fans, is he eventually comes to this realization as well, and we can find a necessary suitor for him.

HofstraBBall wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:You trade Melo you need something proven back. Can't bank it all on hopefully the draft pick coming back turns into a stud.

Mavs let Steve Nash walk because they felt he was on the decline and they traded Jamison to the Wiz for there top 5 pick and grabbed Devin Harris. Harris turned into an average player, Nash turned into MVP(no Im not saying this will happen for Melo). Mavs then later on trade Harris for Jason Kidd since the Nets now wanted to rebuild with youth. Kidd helps Mavs win a championship. Harris helps Nets remain in the lottery.

And i'm sure there are stories of the reverse happening. At the end of the day the same amount of luck and hope is needed.

There are no guarantees of success in the draft, but at the same time there's a hard certainty that Melo won't win a ring in New York. It's fact already.

Do you want to wallow in mediocrity, or do you want to change course and at least have a chance?

So you think we should trade our best player, who even with bad knees has put up numbers we can use in the next three years, for let's say a Frank Kaminsky type pick (Lottery, a Gerian Grant (Late 1st rounder) type pick and a Second rounder (Cleanthony Early) type pick. Just because you dislike him because of whatever personal feeling you have of him? (Real rational)......ummm NO.

we are not good enough to win with him in the near future so why keep him? One reason ... cash cow! Dolan ... in a nutshell, and in no way does this help anyone but him.

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

mreinman wrote:splendid and dead on article. Been saying this sh1t for how long? Geeeeez. We are back to clogging the paint and letting threes rain and sh1t ... puhhhhrfukked.

It was also obvious that Fisher was trying to go more pnr and phil said not on my fukking triangle watch.

pretty clear no matter how many times nixluva says "wroten blah blah" that phil has no idea wtf he is doing and is obviously no GM and certainly not a GM with an eye for todays game.

This team is not as bad as he is making them. Clap clap clap. Legacy = tainted.

Can he fix this? Sure. Allow steve mills to run the show (geeeeeeeez how sad is that), hire a top non triangle-putz coach, and stick to instagram.

This entire post is the reason I hate all "knicks" fans nowadays.

Fisher was not trying to add pick and roll to the triangle. It's already in the triangle. Fishers offense doesn't look any different than what we are doing now. Guys just want to make that point stock just to further slander the "triangle". Truth is you don't even know what an nba offense is. "More modern offense" is the new catch phrase now that golden state is on top. How do you use that to fuel the argument that 2 years as a knicks GM tarnished a 20 year domination of the nba winning 11 championships. It's garbage.

the only argument you can make is Phil can't get talent here. That's not entirely his fault. Players don't want to come here. They would rather sign with other teams and come off the bench than come here and start. That's not because of the triangle. Is because of the media, ignorant fans and piss poor ownership. Who wants to deal with that stufff on purpose when you can go to basically any other team and won with less of a headache?

Anyway this is by far the best shape we have been in as a franchise since Ewing was drafted or the summer we signed Allan Houston. The thing is in those eras, players wantedito play on the Knicks. Guys wanted to sign here. We have to build that back up again. I think Phil is doing a great job cleaning up. I just think it's disgusting to have to argue that after all we've been through. Let fans tell it and you would think this is the worst time to ever be a knicks fan. We've definitely been through worse. We're actually on the come up. Yet here we are arguing about it

no ... you are the one who does not know what you are looking at.

What's wrong with taking a look at a kid like Wroten? Phil has a tough job and there aren't many quick fix solutions that have a high chance of happening this summer. So yeah we have to hope we can find talent like Wroten in the trash heap. You have to look everywhere you can for players you think will fit what you need. A 22 yr old, 6-6 athletic Combo Guard that can defend, fits what Phil wants for this team.

As for the PnR stuff, it's hard to quantify the issue comparing Fish and Rambo. There's really not a whole lot of difference between the PnR or the Pinch Post 2 man game. The result can be pretty much the same. It's not so much which you use but who you have actually trying to run it. The reason the Knicks use the Pinch Post more than the PnR is based on the way they flow from Side Triangle. STILL you can run a 4 out PnR in the Triangle simply by bringing out the Post Man in the Side Triangle.

Rambis using Melo n RoLo PnR

another one

These are the same exact plays that Fisher was using with different players. They aren't anything unique in the Triangle. Just another action in the offense. There's really no need to ditch your entire SYSTEM for one PLAY in the system. The biggest issue is going to be having better guard play so that this team can defend the perimeter better, push the ball more often, create more drives in half court and hit shots at a higher %.

have no idea how wroten got into this and what your post has to do with mine.

are you saying that rambis and fisher are doing the exact same things?

newyorker4ever wrote:

mreinman wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:Cory Joseph was apparently out there for the taking.

I like this kid and was talking about him last off season. He came from the Spurs organization so he already had the time practicing and being around a top organization and top level coach and players but he chose to go to Toronto. I would still like to find a way to get him cause he's playing good ball backing up Lowry. I'm not sure how his contract is with them but he would be a nice get and wouldn't kill our cap.

and why didn't phil go for him? Only some UK posters realized that he was a good player and afflalo was not? And that we needed a PG not a chucker 2?

Maybe phil did reach out ... who knows

I don't think anyone thought Afflalo was a bad player cause he's always been a pretty good player and it's not like he was a bad player for us, he was just inconsistent and didn't play defense as good as he used to because he actually was a good defender before we got him.

most of us did not think but we knew that Afflalo was a below average player. If you rely on the eye test I can see how you may have thought differently before.

newyorker4ever wrote:

mreinman wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

mreinman wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:Cory Joseph was apparently out there for the taking.

I like this kid and was talking about him last off season. He came from the Spurs organization so he already had the time practicing and being around a top organization and top level coach and players but he chose to go to Toronto. I would still like to find a way to get him cause he's playing good ball backing up Lowry. I'm not sure how his contract is with them but he would be a nice get and wouldn't kill our cap.

and why didn't phil go for him? Only some UK posters realized that he was a good player and afflalo was not? And that we needed a PG not a chucker 2?

Maybe phil did reach out ... who knows

I don't think anyone thought Afflalo was a bad player cause he's always been a pretty good player and it's not like he was a bad player for us, he was just inconsistent and didn't play defense as good as he used to because he actually was a good defender before we got him.

most of us did not think but we knew that Afflalo was a below average player. If you rely on the eye test I can see how you may have thought differently before.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

meant some of us not most. Most overrated him of course like they do everyone else we get or even thing about getting.

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

mreinman wrote:splendid and dead on article. Been saying this sh1t for how long? Geeeeez. We are back to clogging the paint and letting threes rain and sh1t ... puhhhhrfukked.

It was also obvious that Fisher was trying to go more pnr and phil said not on my fukking triangle watch.

pretty clear no matter how many times nixluva says "wroten blah blah" that phil has no idea wtf he is doing and is obviously no GM and certainly not a GM with an eye for todays game.

This team is not as bad as he is making them. Clap clap clap. Legacy = tainted.

Can he fix this? Sure. Allow steve mills to run the show (geeeeeeeez how sad is that), hire a top non triangle-putz coach, and stick to instagram.

This entire post is the reason I hate all "knicks" fans nowadays.

Fisher was not trying to add pick and roll to the triangle. It's already in the triangle. Fishers offense doesn't look any different than what we are doing now. Guys just want to make that point stock just to further slander the "triangle". Truth is you don't even know what an nba offense is. "More modern offense" is the new catch phrase now that golden state is on top. How do you use that to fuel the argument that 2 years as a knicks GM tarnished a 20 year domination of the nba winning 11 championships. It's garbage.

the only argument you can make is Phil can't get talent here. That's not entirely his fault. Players don't want to come here. They would rather sign with other teams and come off the bench than come here and start. That's not because of the triangle. Is because of the media, ignorant fans and piss poor ownership. Who wants to deal with that stufff on purpose when you can go to basically any other team and won with less of a headache?

Anyway this is by far the best shape we have been in as a franchise since Ewing was drafted or the summer we signed Allan Houston. The thing is in those eras, players wantedito play on the Knicks. Guys wanted to sign here. We have to build that back up again. I think Phil is doing a great job cleaning up. I just think it's disgusting to have to argue that after all we've been through. Let fans tell it and you would think this is the worst time to ever be a knicks fan. We've definitely been through worse. We're actually on the come up. Yet here we are arguing about it

no ... you are the one who does not know what you are looking at.

What's wrong with taking a look at a kid like Wroten? Phil has a tough job and there aren't many quick fix solutions that have a high chance of happening this summer. So yeah we have to hope we can find talent like Wroten in the trash heap. You have to look everywhere you can for players you think will fit what you need. A 22 yr old, 6-6 athletic Combo Guard that can defend, fits what Phil wants for this team.

As for the PnR stuff, it's hard to quantify the issue comparing Fish and Rambo. There's really not a whole lot of difference between the PnR or the Pinch Post 2 man game. The result can be pretty much the same. It's not so much which you use but who you have actually trying to run it. The reason the Knicks use the Pinch Post more than the PnR is based on the way they flow from Side Triangle. STILL you can run a 4 out PnR in the Triangle simply by bringing out the Post Man in the Side Triangle.

Rambis using Melo n RoLo PnR

another one

These are the same exact plays that Fisher was using with different players. They aren't anything unique in the Triangle. Just another action in the offense. There's really no need to ditch your entire SYSTEM for one PLAY in the system. The biggest issue is going to be having better guard play so that this team can defend the perimeter better, push the ball more often, create more drives in half court and hit shots at a higher %.

have no idea how wroten got into this and what your post has to do with mine.

are you saying that rambis and fisher are doing the exact same things?

Rambis is running PnR, Drag Screens, Give n Go, Dribble Handoffs etc. Same stuff Fisher was running. Different rotations and % of actions run but it's nothing new. The big deal with adding a guard like Wroten is the amount we push the ball, get early offense and drives to the basket in the half court. Those things do make a HUGE difference.

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mreinman wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:You trade Melo you need something proven back. Can't bank it all on hopefully the draft pick coming back turns into a stud.

Mavs let Steve Nash walk because they felt he was on the decline and they traded Jamison to the Wiz for there top 5 pick and grabbed Devin Harris. Harris turned into an average player, Nash turned into MVP(no Im not saying this will happen for Melo). Mavs then later on trade Harris for Jason Kidd since the Nets now wanted to rebuild with youth. Kidd helps Mavs win a championship. Harris helps Nets remain in the lottery.

And i'm sure there are stories of the reverse happening. At the end of the day the same amount of luck and hope is needed.

There are no guarantees of success in the draft, but at the same time there's a hard certainty that Melo won't win a ring in New York. It's fact already.

Do you want to wallow in mediocrity, or do you want to change course and at least have a chance?

So you think we should trade our best player, who even with bad knees has put up numbers we can use in the next three years, for let's say a Frank Kaminsky type pick (Lottery, a Gerian Grant (Late 1st rounder) type pick and a Second rounder (Cleanthony Early) type pick. Just because you dislike him because of whatever personal feeling you have of him? (Real rational)......ummm NO.

we are not good enough to win with him in the near future so why keep him? One reason ... cash cow! Dolan ... in a nutshell, and in no way does this help anyone but him.

And I ......disagree, which I am sure you noticed. We won 54 games with an okay group around him just a few years ago. Unless you think Chandler, Smith, Shump, Felton a retiring Kidd where the best in the NBA at the time. We are a solid coach, PG, consistent second scorer and a system with a pulse that's worth a ****. One that player's wanna play for. Not that far fetched of an expectation from Uncle Phil.

And I get it, trade Melo for draft picks, got it. What I don't get is talking about pie in the sky speculative crap. He has a NTC.. so first big speculation. Pretty big one as if he does name just a couple of teams he would want to go to, we would lose all levwrage. Good luck getting a lot of assets if that's the case. Last i checkes there has been no trade on table so we don't even know what anyone will offer, According to many on here, Boston offerrd every pick they will ever have for him and Melo turned them down. And if or once we get these picks, we just have to pick guys that are guaranteed to make it, easy. Cuz if you look at the success rate of the NBA draft, it's guaranteed. Cant wait for the posts of draft pick hooefulls that will be considered the next Frédéric Weiss, Renaldo Balkmon, Donell Harvey or Mike Sweetney. Cant wait. It's very similar to what teams like the Spurs did, traded guys like Duncan, Ginobli, Parker once they saw they were not 28 any longer so they can build from scratch.