crzymdups wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

martin wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:If we're a .400 team, don't you think we risk losing KP? The biggest concern should be creating a winning environment.

You're a stats guy, what's the likelihood that he or anyone like him leaves? It's near zero. Or zero based on rookie contract extensions.

OK, statistically, the most likely scenario for us is that we trade him in a year or two

The last time the Knicks drafted a top five pick who won multiple rookie of the month awards they decided to keep him for 15yrs and retire his jersey. Even though they traded Bernard King.

dk7th wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Porzingis is being a good teammate just like Melo has been towards him.
Melo has been pushing and helping KP to be more aggressive and get the ball to him.
KP knows how great that has been and he doesn't want Melo to leave.

They get along well.

The only reason I personally am ok with a Melo trade is his salary vs declining production/physical state. If he were making 15 million a year, I'd call him virtually untouchable. If he were in his prime, and physically capable to carry the team like a player of his caliber should, I'd again trade him virtually for players that would never be traded anyway.

Unfortunately the thing is Melo is on a physical decline, and you just can't ignore his salary. The Hawks/Nets with Joe Johnson are a decent comparison. If NY doesn't trade Melo this summer, they may never get a good deal again. And they'll never be able to get anything once he starts missing all-star teams, which aren't all that far away if he doesn't commit himself in the offseason to get lighter, to take care of his body as if he's on his last legs (which he is).

Two ways out of trading him and succeeding in the longrun are striking gold in free agency and/or Kristaps elevating his level to that of a superstar himself. If either or both happen, then Melo can play 30 minutes a night, be used primarily as a scoring threat and is the team's 2nd/3rd most valuable player. In which he can stay a Knick and the team can keep moving forward.

1)well Melo miss 7 or 8 games this yr, guess what.. , wade mess way more than that and still came back to win 2 rings

2)every single player in this league is subject to injuries, there's no exception, no matter who the hell you get

3)When you have a super star(no matter what you think of melo) and a budding superstar, your half way home, your attractive destination

4)Anthony Davis make 30 mill, super talented guy on a losing team...AKA KP without another star.

5)One star major pressure, over usage until knees go bad and injuries mount, have you seen the allan houston, tracy mcgrady, d howard movie, its playing at a theater near you

6)DRAFT picks, 1 out of every 10 are good, the rest are a toss up

7)we tried to build through the draft prior to AMARE, failed, traded all of our picks and assets for the one guy, is that what your looking fwd to

8)veterans win, young teams lose, and lose for a long time

9)no real coach, and a solid staff..TOAST no matter the talent

10)were worry about a pg in a system the pg is almost completely obsolete on the offense end..on the defensive end, two 7 footers in the paint that were going to the bench at he same time to bring in sasha and seraphin

REALITY

#7 is patently false and #10 is, well... i don't know what it means.

that said, the only way forward is to put melo on a minutes restriction. that won't justify his ridiculous contract since it was based on his being a starter at 36 minutes a game but at least the knicks stand a better chance of getting every ounce of value out of him at 24 minutes a game. and by the way, what team is going to want to pay melo all that money when he is going to have to play bench-like minutes?

So then what does the minutes restriction achieve, exactly? You bench the statistical leader of your team. Less Melo = Even More Losing. Another tank job? We have no draft pick, even if Phil works some draft night magic and trades to get one, you think he's going to get quality at the bottom end of the first round?

You think every other GM in the league is going to be impressed with a healthy, conserved Melo at the end of the season? What value does that provide to some other team, since it's obviously not about to provide any value to us?

What about running him the whole 36 minutes a game until the engine gives and then buying him out, ala Joe Johnson? Would that make you happy as a knicks fan?

dk7th wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

dk7th wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Porzingis is being a good teammate just like Melo has been towards him.
Melo has been pushing and helping KP to be more aggressive and get the ball to him.
KP knows how great that has been and he doesn't want Melo to leave.

They get along well.

The only reason I personally am ok with a Melo trade is his salary vs declining production/physical state. If he were making 15 million a year, I'd call him virtually untouchable. If he were in his prime, and physically capable to carry the team like a player of his caliber should, I'd again trade him virtually for players that would never be traded anyway.

Unfortunately the thing is Melo is on a physical decline, and you just can't ignore his salary. The Hawks/Nets with Joe Johnson are a decent comparison. If NY doesn't trade Melo this summer, they may never get a good deal again. And they'll never be able to get anything once he starts missing all-star teams, which aren't all that far away if he doesn't commit himself in the offseason to get lighter, to take care of his body as if he's on his last legs (which he is).

Two ways out of trading him and succeeding in the longrun are striking gold in free agency and/or Kristaps elevating his level to that of a superstar himself. If either or both happen, then Melo can play 30 minutes a night, be used primarily as a scoring threat and is the team's 2nd/3rd most valuable player. In which he can stay a Knick and the team can keep moving forward.

1)well Melo miss 7 or 8 games this yr, guess what.. , wade mess way more than that and still came back to win 2 rings

2)every single player in this league is subject to injuries, there's no exception, no matter who the hell you get

3)When you have a super star(no matter what you think of melo) and a budding superstar, your half way home, your attractive destination

4)Anthony Davis make 30 mill, super talented guy on a losing team...AKA KP without another star.

5)One star major pressure, over usage until knees go bad and injuries mount, have you seen the allan houston, tracy mcgrady, d howard movie, its playing at a theater near you

6)DRAFT picks, 1 out of every 10 are good, the rest are a toss up

7)we tried to build through the draft prior to AMARE, failed, traded all of our picks and assets for the one guy, is that what your looking fwd to

8)veterans win, young teams lose, and lose for a long time

9)no real coach, and a solid staff..TOAST no matter the talent

10)were worry about a pg in a system the pg is almost completely obsolete on the offense end..on the defensive end, two 7 footers in the paint that were going to the bench at he same time to bring in sasha and seraphin

REALITY

#7 is patently false and #10 is, well... i don't know what it means.

that said, the only way forward is to put melo on a minutes restriction. that won't justify his ridiculous contract since it was based on his being a starter at 36 minutes a game but at least the knicks stand a better chance of getting every ounce of value out of him at 24 minutes a game. and by the way, what team is going to want to pay melo all that money when he is going to have to play bench-like minutes?

So then what does the minutes restriction achieve, exactly? You bench the statistical leader of your team. Less Melo = Even More Losing. Another tank job? We have no draft pick, even if Phil works some draft night magic and trades to get one, you think he's going to get quality at the bottom end of the first round?

You think every other GM in the league is going to be impressed with a healthy, conserved Melo at the end of the season? What value does that provide to some other team, since it's obviously not about to provide any value to us?

What about running him the whole 36 minutes a game until the engine gives and then buying him out, ala Joe Johnson? Would that make you happy as a knicks fan?

melo's breaking down physically. this is undeniable.

hence, if you want to keep him as a knick then it makes no sense to run him into the ground, unless this is a strategy for forcing him to ask for a trade. i wonder if this is what jackson and rambis are doing here. it's a suspicion i have... as this season is now dust in the wind. melo is breaking down, just as i had feared when the knicks signed him to this ridiculous contract. note that carmelo anthony will have missed the playoffs 3 times in the last 4 seasons, which does not include the strike-shortened linsanity season or the season he forced his way to a knicks team that was already headed to the playoffs. his legacy as a knick is looking very bad, and his career is now decidedly and definitively mediocre at best.

there's only one common denominator in melo's career and his won-loss record: melo.

alternatively, if melo doesn't leave this summer and, although it is a long shot that the knicks become legitimate contenders while melo is here in any capacity, it makes much more sense to keep his minutes down while the coaching staff develops other players who they plan to keep. williams and thomas come to mind. also, whoever the knicks acquire in the offseason. i personally think the guy from boston, evan turner, would be a great pickup: he's a heady, defending swingman who can play both shooting guard and small forward in the triangle.

bottom line is that what i have been predicting for months is apparently going to come to fruition-- melo's only chance to win here will be as a 6th man or a starter in name only, ie a starter who ends up playing closer to 24 minutes per game.

There is no doubt in my mind that Melo is struggling this year. Been through a lot over the past year and half. Still wondering if that's career defining or a struggle that has just taken longer to come back from.

Was Durant done? Wade? Others?

StarksEwing1 wrote:I very much doubt trading melo would mean losing kp.....thats just silly. KP WANTED to be in new york. I understand melo has helped him and i appreciate that but that doesnt mean he would leave if/when melo is traded

Agreed. KP just came out and grabbed Melo's back which was cool of him and commendable but deep down I bet he knows we'll all be better off, him included, once we turn the page. Turning the page would help Melo too. Hopefully Phil goes to Melo in the offseason and tries to work something out with him. A split would be amicable in every sense of the word.

martin wrote:

dk7th wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

dk7th wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Porzingis is being a good teammate just like Melo has been towards him.
Melo has been pushing and helping KP to be more aggressive and get the ball to him.
KP knows how great that has been and he doesn't want Melo to leave.

They get along well.

The only reason I personally am ok with a Melo trade is his salary vs declining production/physical state. If he were making 15 million a year, I'd call him virtually untouchable. If he were in his prime, and physically capable to carry the team like a player of his caliber should, I'd again trade him virtually for players that would never be traded anyway.

Unfortunately the thing is Melo is on a physical decline, and you just can't ignore his salary. The Hawks/Nets with Joe Johnson are a decent comparison. If NY doesn't trade Melo this summer, they may never get a good deal again. And they'll never be able to get anything once he starts missing all-star teams, which aren't all that far away if he doesn't commit himself in the offseason to get lighter, to take care of his body as if he's on his last legs (which he is).

Two ways out of trading him and succeeding in the longrun are striking gold in free agency and/or Kristaps elevating his level to that of a superstar himself. If either or both happen, then Melo can play 30 minutes a night, be used primarily as a scoring threat and is the team's 2nd/3rd most valuable player. In which he can stay a Knick and the team can keep moving forward.

1)well Melo miss 7 or 8 games this yr, guess what.. , wade mess way more than that and still came back to win 2 rings

2)every single player in this league is subject to injuries, there's no exception, no matter who the hell you get

3)When you have a super star(no matter what you think of melo) and a budding superstar, your half way home, your attractive destination

4)Anthony Davis make 30 mill, super talented guy on a losing team...AKA KP without another star.

5)One star major pressure, over usage until knees go bad and injuries mount, have you seen the allan houston, tracy mcgrady, d howard movie, its playing at a theater near you

6)DRAFT picks, 1 out of every 10 are good, the rest are a toss up

7)we tried to build through the draft prior to AMARE, failed, traded all of our picks and assets for the one guy, is that what your looking fwd to

8)veterans win, young teams lose, and lose for a long time

9)no real coach, and a solid staff..TOAST no matter the talent

10)were worry about a pg in a system the pg is almost completely obsolete on the offense end..on the defensive end, two 7 footers in the paint that were going to the bench at he same time to bring in sasha and seraphin

REALITY

#7 is patently false and #10 is, well... i don't know what it means.

that said, the only way forward is to put melo on a minutes restriction. that won't justify his ridiculous contract since it was based on his being a starter at 36 minutes a game but at least the knicks stand a better chance of getting every ounce of value out of him at 24 minutes a game. and by the way, what team is going to want to pay melo all that money when he is going to have to play bench-like minutes?

So then what does the minutes restriction achieve, exactly? You bench the statistical leader of your team. Less Melo = Even More Losing. Another tank job? We have no draft pick, even if Phil works some draft night magic and trades to get one, you think he's going to get quality at the bottom end of the first round?

You think every other GM in the league is going to be impressed with a healthy, conserved Melo at the end of the season? What value does that provide to some other team, since it's obviously not about to provide any value to us?

What about running him the whole 36 minutes a game until the engine gives and then buying him out, ala Joe Johnson? Would that make you happy as a knicks fan?

melo's breaking down physically. this is undeniable.

hence, if you want to keep him as a knick then it makes no sense to run him into the ground, unless this is a strategy for forcing him to ask for a trade. i wonder if this is what jackson and rambis are doing here. it's a suspicion i have... as this season is now dust in the wind. melo is breaking down, just as i had feared when the knicks signed him to this ridiculous contract. note that carmelo anthony will have missed the playoffs 3 times in the last 4 seasons, which does not include the strike-shortened linsanity season or the season he forced his way to a knicks team that was already headed to the playoffs. his legacy as a knick is looking very bad, and his career is now decidedly and definitively mediocre at best.

there's only one common denominator in melo's career and his won-loss record: melo.

alternatively, if melo doesn't leave this summer and, although it is a long shot that the knicks become legitimate contenders while melo is here in any capacity, it makes much more sense to keep his minutes down while the coaching staff develops other players who they plan to keep. williams and thomas come to mind. also, whoever the knicks acquire in the offseason. i personally think the guy from boston, evan turner, would be a great pickup: he's a heady, defending swingman who can play both shooting guard and small forward in the triangle.

bottom line is that what i have been predicting for months is apparently going to come to fruition-- melo's only chance to win here will be as a 6th man or a starter in name only, ie a starter who ends up playing closer to 24 minutes per game.

There is no doubt in my mind that Melo is struggling this year. Been through a lot over the past year and half. Still wondering if that's career defining or a struggle that has just taken longer to come back from.

Was Durant done? Wade? Others?

wade is a good comparison and durant less so. wade (never has been durable), when he hasn't been out with injuries and while spoelstra has been coach, has been given nights off similar to the strategy used by popovich, i believe. it makes eminent sense. so either melo gets nights off as a proactive measure or he gets nights off due to injury breaking down. that's all i am saying. playing him all these minutes this season is just so wrong at this point. it would have been wrong in any scenario given the 32,000 minutes he has logged.

but with the all-around team game he has demonstrated finally this season, including playing some decent defense, it behooves the knicks to limit his minutes or give him nights off as they continue to build a winner with him as a piece rather than a foundation stone. if he ends up leaving then i predict this is what will occur anyway, no matter where he ends up.

dk7th wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

dk7th wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Porzingis is being a good teammate just like Melo has been towards him.
Melo has been pushing and helping KP to be more aggressive and get the ball to him.
KP knows how great that has been and he doesn't want Melo to leave.

They get along well.

The only reason I personally am ok with a Melo trade is his salary vs declining production/physical state. If he were making 15 million a year, I'd call him virtually untouchable. If he were in his prime, and physically capable to carry the team like a player of his caliber should, I'd again trade him virtually for players that would never be traded anyway.

Unfortunately the thing is Melo is on a physical decline, and you just can't ignore his salary. The Hawks/Nets with Joe Johnson are a decent comparison. If NY doesn't trade Melo this summer, they may never get a good deal again. And they'll never be able to get anything once he starts missing all-star teams, which aren't all that far away if he doesn't commit himself in the offseason to get lighter, to take care of his body as if he's on his last legs (which he is).

Two ways out of trading him and succeeding in the longrun are striking gold in free agency and/or Kristaps elevating his level to that of a superstar himself. If either or both happen, then Melo can play 30 minutes a night, be used primarily as a scoring threat and is the team's 2nd/3rd most valuable player. In which he can stay a Knick and the team can keep moving forward.

1)well Melo miss 7 or 8 games this yr, guess what.. , wade mess way more than that and still came back to win 2 rings

2)every single player in this league is subject to injuries, there's no exception, no matter who the hell you get

3)When you have a super star(no matter what you think of melo) and a budding superstar, your half way home, your attractive destination

4)Anthony Davis make 30 mill, super talented guy on a losing team...AKA KP without another star.

5)One star major pressure, over usage until knees go bad and injuries mount, have you seen the allan houston, tracy mcgrady, d howard movie, its playing at a theater near you

6)DRAFT picks, 1 out of every 10 are good, the rest are a toss up

7)we tried to build through the draft prior to AMARE, failed, traded all of our picks and assets for the one guy, is that what your looking fwd to

8)veterans win, young teams lose, and lose for a long time

9)no real coach, and a solid staff..TOAST no matter the talent

10)were worry about a pg in a system the pg is almost completely obsolete on the offense end..on the defensive end, two 7 footers in the paint that were going to the bench at he same time to bring in sasha and seraphin

REALITY

#7 is patently false and #10 is, well... i don't know what it means.

that said, the only way forward is to put melo on a minutes restriction. that won't justify his ridiculous contract since it was based on his being a starter at 36 minutes a game but at least the knicks stand a better chance of getting every ounce of value out of him at 24 minutes a game. and by the way, what team is going to want to pay melo all that money when he is going to have to play bench-like minutes?

So then what does the minutes restriction achieve, exactly? You bench the statistical leader of your team. Less Melo = Even More Losing. Another tank job? We have no draft pick, even if Phil works some draft night magic and trades to get one, you think he's going to get quality at the bottom end of the first round?

You think every other GM in the league is going to be impressed with a healthy, conserved Melo at the end of the season? What value does that provide to some other team, since it's obviously not about to provide any value to us?

What about running him the whole 36 minutes a game until the engine gives and then buying him out, ala Joe Johnson? Would that make you happy as a knicks fan?

melo's breaking down physically. this is undeniable.

hence, if you want to keep him as a knick then it makes no sense to run him into the ground, unless this is a strategy for forcing him to ask for a trade. i wonder if this is what jackson and rambis are doing here. it's a suspicion i have... as this season is now dust in the wind. melo is breaking down, just as i had feared when the knicks signed him to this ridiculous contract. note that carmelo anthony will have missed the playoffs 3 times in the last 4 seasons, which does not include the strike-shortened linsanity season or the season he forced his way to a knicks team that was already headed to the playoffs. his legacy as a knick is looking very bad, and his career is now decidedly and definitively mediocre at best.

there's only one common denominator in melo's career and his won-loss record: melo.

dk7th wrote:

martin wrote:

dk7th wrote:alternatively, if melo doesn't leave this summer and, although it is a long shot that the knicks become legitimate contenders while melo is here in any capacity, it makes much more sense to keep his minutes down while the coaching staff develops other players who they plan to keep. williams and thomas come to mind. also, whoever the knicks acquire in the offseason. i personally think the guy from boston, evan turner, would be a great pickup: he's a heady, defending swingman who can play both shooting guard and small forward in the triangle.

bottom line is that what i have been predicting for months is apparently going to come to fruition-- melo's only chance to win here will be as a 6th man or a starter in name only, ie a starter who ends up playing closer to 24 minutes per game.

There is no doubt in my mind that Melo is struggling this year. Been through a lot over the past year and half. Still wondering if that's career defining or a struggle that has just taken longer to come back from.

Was Durant done? Wade? Others?

wade is a good comparison and durant less so. wade (never has been durable), when he hasn't been out with injuries and while spoelstra has been coach, has been given nights off similar to the strategy used by popovich, i believe. it makes eminent sense. so either melo gets nights off as a proactive measure or he gets nights off due to injury breaking down. that's all i am saying. playing him all these minutes this season is just so wrong at this point. it would have been wrong in any scenario given the 32,000 minutes he has logged.

but with the all-around team game he has demonstrated finally this season, including playing some decent defense, it behooves the knicks to limit his minutes or give him nights off as they continue to build a winner with him as a piece rather than a foundation stone. if he ends up leaving then i predict this is what will occur anyway, no matter where he ends up.

I don't understand how you reward him with the bench. The man wants to play and win. It's painful even to listen to the way he gets pummeled going to the basket night in and night out. Is that his fault? Right, he's a dinosaur, his game's archaic, he's only interested in money, blah blah blah. Truth is, he doesn't get the calls he should, no matter where you place him the NBA pantheon.

So bench your best player to possibly "develop" two journeyman forwards. Got it.

jrodmc wrote:

dk7th wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Porzingis is being a good teammate just like Melo has been towards him.
Melo has been pushing and helping KP to be more aggressive and get the ball to him.
KP knows how great that has been and he doesn't want Melo to leave.

They get along well.

The only reason I personally am ok with a Melo trade is his salary vs declining production/physical state. If he were making 15 million a year, I'd call him virtually untouchable. If he were in his prime, and physically capable to carry the team like a player of his caliber should, I'd again trade him virtually for players that would never be traded anyway.

Unfortunately the thing is Melo is on a physical decline, and you just can't ignore his salary. The Hawks/Nets with Joe Johnson are a decent comparison. If NY doesn't trade Melo this summer, they may never get a good deal again. And they'll never be able to get anything once he starts missing all-star teams, which aren't all that far away if he doesn't commit himself in the offseason to get lighter, to take care of his body as if he's on his last legs (which he is).

Two ways out of trading him and succeeding in the longrun are striking gold in free agency and/or Kristaps elevating his level to that of a superstar himself. If either or both happen, then Melo can play 30 minutes a night, be used primarily as a scoring threat and is the team's 2nd/3rd most valuable player. In which he can stay a Knick and the team can keep moving forward.

1)well Melo miss 7 or 8 games this yr, guess what.. , wade mess way more than that and still came back to win 2 rings

2)every single player in this league is subject to injuries, there's no exception, no matter who the hell you get

3)When you have a super star(no matter what you think of melo) and a budding superstar, your half way home, your attractive destination

4)Anthony Davis make 30 mill, super talented guy on a losing team...AKA KP without another star.

5)One star major pressure, over usage until knees go bad and injuries mount, have you seen the allan houston, tracy mcgrady, d howard movie, its playing at a theater near you

6)DRAFT picks, 1 out of every 10 are good, the rest are a toss up

7)we tried to build through the draft prior to AMARE, failed, traded all of our picks and assets for the one guy, is that what your looking fwd to

8)veterans win, young teams lose, and lose for a long time

9)no real coach, and a solid staff..TOAST no matter the talent

10)were worry about a pg in a system the pg is almost completely obsolete on the offense end..on the defensive end, two 7 footers in the paint that were going to the bench at he same time to bring in sasha and seraphin

REALITY

#7 is patently false and #10 is, well... i don't know what it means.

that said, the only way forward is to put melo on a minutes restriction. that won't justify his ridiculous contract since it was based on his being a starter at 36 minutes a game but at least the knicks stand a better chance of getting every ounce of value out of him at 24 minutes a game. and by the way, what team is going to want to pay melo all that money when he is going to have to play bench-like minutes?

So then what does the minutes restriction achieve, exactly? You bench the statistical leader of your team. Less Melo = Even More Losing. Another tank job? We have no draft pick, even if Phil works some draft night magic and trades to get one, you think he's going to get quality at the bottom end of the first round?

You think every other GM in the league is going to be impressed with a healthy, conserved Melo at the end of the season? What value does that provide to some other team, since it's obviously not about to provide any value to us?

What about running him the whole 36 minutes a game until the engine gives and then buying him out, ala Joe Johnson? Would that make you happy as a knicks fan?

#7= danilo, toney douglas, david lee, channing fry, chandler, nate robinson, and a few other that never even crack the rotation.

Melo is a grown man, if he feels he needs rest, and his smart, he will ask for it.