nyk4ever wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Martin how come Knicks fans never gave Shumpert any credit for being the best perimeter defender on the team. Best we had since Sprewell and credit for doing some of the little things to help us win but give credit to Robin Lopez for the same things?

he didn't get any credit because he wasn't that good. to call him the best perimeter defender since sprewell isn't saying much, there's not much competition for that honor. he was horribly inconsistent offensively and defensively he was never a shut-down defender, which he had to do if he wanted to be a starter. overall a very a mediocre player.

Curious why respond to this post when the post that led to it was completely irrelevant to this thread? Why no reponse to any of the other relevant posts in this thread or other threads?

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:You realize when he goes Mills will be taking over, don't you. Before Phil, it was Dolan and Mills running the team- do you really think that was better?

Was it worse? We've gone like 40-100 the last 2 years. If KP doesn't become a superstar, then I don't think we'll be able to point to anything Phil has done and say it was better than what the previous GMs did here.

No, of course the past wasn't worse. It was great!

2009-10 29-53, .354, No playoffs
2008-09 32-50, .390, No playoffs
2007-08 23-59, .280, No playoffs
2006-07 33-49, .402, No playoffs
2005-06 23-59, .280, No playoffs

Yeah, you're right on there, Bonn. Give me those other GM's any day of the week!

Can you tell me what 40 divided by 140 is?
Note that I did not say the past was better. I asked if it was really worse. It's probably about the same. We're just an overpriced lottery team again.

Can you tell me what 5 minus 2 equals? Phil's still got three years left.

Without the doom and gloom outlook on KP, what GM in the past did anything that even approaches drafting KP?

Right but the question is whether we're currently better than past GM's teams. Obviously no one (except Nixluva ) knows what will happen in the future.
What did other GMs do that that approaches drafting KP? We can't know what the answer to that is for many years.

Current status isn't really the issue unless you plan on freezing time and never moving forward. You have to build on a good foundation and that foundation has to have good players. KP is considered a good foundation player but of course we have to see how he develops. That's really all anyone can do. What else can a GM do better than drafting a possible franchise talent? After that you have to add around the franchise talent and part of that will include Free Agency and trades.

Lopez - 3 more years
Porzingis - 3 more years and likely more
Melo - 3 more years but could be traded
Galloway (I think we'll keep him) on 3 year deal
Grant - 3 more years likely
O'Quinn - 2 more years

We've got money in the coming seasons to replace Afflalo, Calderon with not just players like them, but much much better. Porzingis is only 20, Galloway is 24, Grant is 23, these guys can keep improving 10-20% from where they are today (maybe even more for 1 or 2 of them).

At this point, the Knicks are doing the smart thing if they simply be patient. They have a very very strong front court. They have a very weak backcourt. With the way their cap is set up, they can address the backcourt in 2016 and again in 2017. Even if we spend all our money in 2016 on backcourt talent, we can go ahead in 2017 and spend again in that exact same department. So at minimum you're looking at 20 million worth of talent this summer in the backcourt, and possibly 20-25 million more next season. That could result in 3-4 quality players. Or 1 star and 1 quality role player.

I have to wait, and I'm giving Phil up until July 2017 to show us what he can do. I think the plan was always to have the roster ready by 2017, no sooner. The only ? is where that puts Melo. I wouldn't mind him staying but I wouldn't mind him moving on as well if we get some young players.

nyk4ever wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Martin how come Knicks fans never gave Shumpert any credit for being the best perimeter defender on the team. Best we had since Sprewell and credit for doing some of the little things to help us win but give credit to Robin Lopez for the same things?

he didn't get any credit because he wasn't that good. to call him the best perimeter defender since sprewell isn't saying much, there's not much competition for that honor. he was horribly inconsistent offensively and defensively he was never a shut-down defender, which he had to do if he wanted to be a starter. overall a very a mediocre player.

Curious why respond to this post when the post that led to it was completely irrelevant to this thread? Why no reponse to any of the other relevant posts in this thread or other threads?

because im responding to you, sir. why are you looking into so far into it?

i disagreed 100% with your take on shumpert. why are you so damn sensitive on this forum?

joec32033 wrote:

GoNyGoNyGo wrote:

nixluva wrote:

fishmike wrote:

MS wrote:This franchise unfortunately is probably one of the top 5 worst in the NBA. Because of the musical chairs with GM's and coaches it's hard to ever take the Knicks seriously.

Phil unfortunately is paying for others incompetence. The previous GM's stripped him of his picks in 2/3 seasons he has been here. Which is a tremendous disadvantage and would have allowed us to acquire a better lead guard or draft one.

Outside of the Chandler deal which was horrible, he's done a nice job. All contracts allow the team to maintain flexibility and he locked in a solid center and at great potential franchise talent. He really hasn't had a lot to work with here.

yea this... at the very worst Lopez and KP are building block guys. This offseason its the backcourt. Phil has some resources to work with. He needs to make it happen. AA/Calderon are fine for stop gaps. Not much else to work with

Gotta really look at the available players at PG and SG this summer:

PLAYER          POS.    AGE     YOE     FROM    TO      2015 CAP HIT    STATUS
Mike Conley	PG	28	8	MEM	TBD	$9,588,426	UFA
Rajon Rondo	PG	30	9	SAC	TBD	$9,500,000	UFA
Brandon Jennings PG	26	6	ORL	TBD	$8,344,497	UFA
Greivis Vasquez	PG	29	5	MIL	TBD	$6,600,000	UFA
Mario Chalmers	PG	29	7	MEM	TBD	$4,300,000	UFA
Raymond Felton	PG	31	10	DAL	TBD	$3,950,313	UFA
Norris Cole	PG	27	4	NOP	TBD	$3,036,927	UFA
Jerryd Bayless	PG	27	7	MIL	TBD	$3,000,000	UFA
D.J. Augustin	PG	28	7	DEN	TBD	$3,000,000	UFA
Brian Roberts	PG	30	3	POR	TBD	$2,854,940	UFA
Aaron Brooks	PG	31	7	CHI	TBD	$2,250,000	UFA
Steve Blake	PG	35	12	DET	TBD	$2,170,465	UFA
Ramon Sessions	PG	29	8	WAS	TBD	$2,170,465	UFA
Beno Udrih	PG	33	11	MIA	TBD	$2,170,465	UFA
Gary Neal	PG	31	5	WAS	TBD	$2,139,000	UFA
Ishmael Smith	PG	27	5	PHI	TBD	$947,276	UFA
Ronnie Price	PG	32	10	PHX	TBD	$947,276	UFA
Pablo Prigioni	PG	38	3	LAC	TBD	$947,276	UFA
Donald Sloan	PG	28	4	BKN	TBD	$947,276	UFA
Isaiah Canaan	PG	24	2	PHI	TBD	$947,276	RFA
Andre Miller	PG	39	16	MIN	TBD	$947,276	UFA
Ray McCallum	PG	24	2	SAS	TBD	$947,276	RFA
Toney Douglas	PG	29	6	NOP	TBD	$924,987	UFA
Jordan Clarkson	PG	23	1	LAL	TBD	$845,059	RFA
Langston Galloway PG	24	1	NYK	TBD	$845,059	RFA
Marcelo Huertas	PG	32		LAL	TBD	$525,093	RFA
PLAYER          POS.    AGE     YOE     FROM    TO      2015 CAP HIT    STATUS
Dwyane Wade	SG	34	12	MIA	TBD	$20,000,000	UFA
Eric Gordon	SG	27	7	NOP	TBD	$15,514,031	UFA
O.J. Mayo	SG	28	7	MIL	TBD	$8,000,000	UFA
Gerald Henderson SG	28	6	POR	TBD	$6,000,000	UFA
Bradley Beal	SG	22	3	WAS	TBD	$5,694,674	RFA
Jamal Crawford	SG	35	15	LAC	TBD	$5,675,000	UFA
Courtney Lee	SG	30	7	CHA	TBD	$5,675,000	UFA
Dion Waiters	SG	24	3	OKC	TBD	$5,138,430	RFA
Jared Dudley	SG	30	8	WAS	TBD	$4,375,000	UFA
Randy Foye	SG	32	9	OKC	TBD	$3,135,000	UFA
Kirk Hinrich	SG	35	12	ATL	TBD	$2,993,489	UFA
Leandro Barbosa	SG	33	12	GSW	TBD	$2,500,000	UFA
Evan Fournier	SG	23	3	ORL	TBD	$2,288,204	RFA
Kent Bazemore	SG	26	3	ATL	TBD	$2,000,000	UFA
Sergey Karasev	SG	22	2	BKN	TBD	$1,599,840	RFA
Brandon Rush	SG	30	7	GSW	TBD	$1,270,964	UFA
P.J. Hairston	SG	23	1	MEM	TBD	$1,201,440	UFA
Garrett Temple	SG	29	5	WAS	TBD	$1,100,602	UFA
E'Twaun Moore	SG	26	4	CHI	TBD	$1,015,421	UFA
Gerald Green	SG	30	8	MIA	TBD	$947,276	UFA
Sasha Vujacic	SG	31	8	NYK	TBD	$947,276	UFA
Ian Clark	SG	24	2	GSW	TBD	$947,276	RFA
Troy Daniels	SG	24	2	CHA	TBD	$947,276	RFA
Marcus Thornton	SG	28	6	HOU	TBD	$947,276	UFA
Mike Miller	SG	36	15	DEN	TBD	$947,276	UFA
Jason Terry	SG	38	16	HOU	TBD	$942,276	UFA
Markel Brown	SG	24	1	BKN	TBD	$845,059	RFA
Tyler Johnson	SG	22	1	MIA	TBD	$845,059	RFA
Tony Wroten Jr.	SG	22	3	PHI	TBD	-	        RFA

It's all about the guards.

I would not give Conley the Max. He is 30 this year. That means 2 max guys both in their 30's? No thanks.
Derozan is a max guy for me. 26 years old. Scoring guard. Perfect.

For PG, I would look at the next level for NY. Clarkson might be a good fit. only 23 years old!

I like Turner or Barnes as a 6th man role and Melo insurance.

Can NY get all that ? Only if Calderon/AA and Dwill are gone...but they have to try!

Clarkson
Derozan
Melo
KP
RoLO

Turner
KOQ
Hernangomez
LT
Gallo
Grant

That is a good team and with DD, JC and KP they can grow together! I am sure there are guys who slip thru the gaps that can fill out the roster.

edit - Need some long range shooters too!

Clarkson
Galloway
Cole
Beal-not on a max deal(he would a been #1,but dude may be on a minutes limit the rest of his career)

I don't want both guard spots over 29/30 years of age. I read on the front page the article about Courtney Lee, who is basically a younger Afflalo. I would love to add a guy like him along with another YOUNGER swing guard in the back court.

I said it before, the triangle is more about roles than skill even though higher skill translates into performing your role better.

The old Bulls had a shooter at the point position(Kerr, Armstrong) and Jordan running the offense from the 2 guard spot. Pippin and Grant were you defenders/versatile well rounded players while Cartwright was there to defend the middle. Later on Phil super-sized his players Ron Harper instead of mini PG'S. A 6-11 Kukoc instead of Grant, and Longley/Dele where plug and plays for Cartwright.

The Lakers ran the offense through Shaq and had the same riles as the Bulls had with Odom, Fisher, a young Kobe and later with Kobe and Pau.

I think the key to this offense is to have at least 1 shooter, 2 3 and D guys and a rim protector and 1 main offensive guy that you can run your offense through.

I think the problem here is, and I don't know if he can or not, Carmelo, not the guards should be initiating the offense and facilitating off his scoring. Carmelo, should have the ball in his hands on every offensive possession. He needs to get off early and then facilitate when he has the other team's attention.

This offense bears no resemblance, even in the most rudimentary aspects, to that of the triangle of the Lakers and Bulls. And I don't think it is because they are just learning it. It is because these pieces don't fit their roles. That is why I don't understand the fascination with guys like Jeff Teague. This offense is better built for guys like Oladipo and Bledsoe.

I'm really intrigued by this summer for Phil. This will say a lot about what he really thinks this team needs cuz I don't expect him to make another AA type addition. That's not what this summer is about IMO. He's gonna be looking for a more Dynamic SG IMO. We've only twice seen Phil Coached teams without a dynamic Kobe or MJ at SG. That was during MJ's 1st retirement in 1993 thru 1996.

They went 55-27 and they started a lineup of BJ Armstrong, Pippen, Pete Myers, Horace Grant and Bill Cartwright. Kukoc was the 6th man. This team was more of a defensive team than an offensive one. They ranked 14th in offense and 6th in defense. I was watching some video of them and they ran a lot thru Pippen obviously. I noted they pushed the ball and got early offense WAY more than we have seen with this team. That was a very athletic group outside of Cartwright.

In comparison this team is nothing like that one. Phil has this team more like his Lakers team with Pau and Bynum. We have KP and Rolo but no one that comes close to Kobe at SG or Odom. If anything Melo is playing like a slower version of Odom at times. There is one huge missing element on this team tho. There is no athletic, penetrating, ball handling SG or SF!!! That lower case version of MJ, Kobe, Pippen, Kukoc or Odom is missing from this roster. I think a Derozan fits that kind of role. Batum and maybe a kid like Evan Fournier or Kent Bazemore. I can't think of any others off the top of my head.