To me, this isn't about the stats either. It's about the defense -- or lack of it. I don't like to hate on our players. I root for Calderon. He definitely has some valuable skills: Great stroke, careful with the ball, gets the offensive sets running efficiently, and plenty competitive. But he can't keep anyone in front of him and he can't defend the pick and roll. At all. He also isn't a threat off the dribble, which means he can't create for himself or others. The defensive deficiencies hurt us a lot. The offensive ones I could overlook given his assets and the way the team's put together.

I agree he's a stop gap for another year, but not that he's playing well. So if we could upgrade one position, I'd want it to be the point. And if we could do it this year instead of the off season, great by me.

nyk4ever wrote:

fishmike wrote:

bernard wrote:Wait a minute. This ranks Jose 46 among PG's. http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/pg based on PER, which doesn't even take into account his total inability to keep anyone in front of him. Stick by my original post :)

bernard wrote:Posted this before I read the win shares post. Hard to believe. Just watching the guy play "d" is painful. But the data is the data. Stand corrected.

bernard wrote:Guards as a whole might be worst in the league. AA is a mid-tier starting 2; Calderon is among the league's worst starting 1's. Gallo is a mid-tier 1st guard off the bench. Everyone else we have is well below average for how much burn they get. If we could upgrade at the point, we'd be very solid and dangerous as a team. I agree.

PER is still a number based on production. Jose isnt a guy who fills the stat sheet. WS/48 is a better indication.

Jose has the best eFG% and TS% on the team. He's got a 4-1 TO ratio. While he has limitations he also makes heady game changing plays like that layup to go ahead the other day or the defend on Heyward resulting in the travel last night.

Jose has plenty of limitations, but this stuff about him being the worst in the league or total garbage is just that... total garbage. He's a stop gap guy for one more year, and he's playing very well. He hit a huge 3 last night as well. He also runs the offense very well. All that shouting and pointing he does isnt for show. He's a floor general.

well said, fish. this isn't a video game where you can have an all-star at every position. the pg position, moreso than anything else, is a position, where you want a guy who makes heady plays and knows how to run the team. this is exactly what calderon does. he's not the prettiest of players, but he gets the job done and is important to this team. i would love more production from our PG spot, but its far away from being a detriment to us.

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Our guards go 3 deep--aint gonna get it done in the playoffs.

Probably not, no.

That's why the other 28 teams will watch the two teams in the Finals.

Inferior talent.

That's defeatist---I dont do defeatist unless its in our best interests to lose.

I don't think there's a real way to upgrade the guard corps until the summer. I think next year we can legit contend for the finals if we upgrade the PG and add some depth at the 2/3. I'd love Batum. Sounds like Conley may stay in Memphis, but you have to ask him.

If the Knicks could get Tyler Johnson and Batum this summer? I think then you have an argument they could get to the Finals. They ain't gonna beat the Warriors, but they could get out of the East, unless the Cavs make major changes.

I dont want to be mean but it takes a real lot to be as bad as Jerian Grant has been. He had 1-2 games this year. Its of my opinion there are SEVERAL guards in the D League alone who are better than Sasha and Jerian. They simply cannot make a shot they can drive they cant do much if anything?? I mean position 4-5 ion the guard corp--we can make an effort to improve it. We need 2 God forbid injury than even worse.

You're entitled to your opinion about Grant.

You're ON RECORD as being way too impatient and way too premature on Lopez, but we'll roll with this anyway.

To suggest the Knicks are a D-League player away from being a legitimate contender - that THAT is the difference between contending or not, is just not credible.

Im not suggesting that--Im willing "in the right scenario" to bring back a pro guard under the age of 28 using Grant as trade bait. You seem to twist what other say way off. The Sixers just improved their team dramatically by trading 2 second round picks. Would you take Ish Smith right now for Jerian Grant---yep. Are there D league guards better than Jerian Grant and Sasha right now--you know there are.

Nope.

Smoth didn't begin to have a pulse in this league until his 4th season. During his first 3 seasons/121 games in the NBA, he was inferior to Grant.

And I don't know there are better guards in the league than Grant. Phil Jackson doesn't seem to think so either.

Either way, Knicks are not signing a D-League player and inserting them into the rotation.

Your comprehension skills are very poor. Is Ish Smith right now TODAY this moment much better than Jerian Grant? Easy answer YES. How did the Sixers acquire Smith--with not much. So my point is there are possibilities we can improve the team using not much. Well its done every year. Right now you cna insert 75% of the D league into Jeriuan Grants spot and you'll get atleast similar output. Hes been terrible. Jerian right now needs to go to the D league.

bernard wrote:Not surprisingly, one can find a set of stats to support whatever one's argument is on this. The Real Plus Minus stats say Dellavedova is having a better year than Conley and Lillard. Absurd. They say Jose is having a better year than Dragic, Teague and Rondo. I don't buy it.

To me, this isn't about the stats either. It's about the defense -- or lack of it. I don't like to hate on our players. I root for Calderon. He definitely has some valuable skills: Great stroke, careful with the ball, gets the offensive sets running efficiently, and plenty competitive. But he can't keep anyone in front of him and he can't defend the pick and roll. At all. He also isn't a threat off the dribble, which means he can't create for himself or others. The defensive deficiencies hurt us a lot. The offensive ones I could overlook given his assets and the way the team's put together.

I agree he's a stop gap for another year, but not that he's playing well. So if we could upgrade one position, I'd want it to be the point. And if we could do it this year instead of the off season, great by me.

nyk4ever wrote:

fishmike wrote:

bernard wrote:Wait a minute. This ranks Jose 46 among PG's. http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/pg based on PER, which doesn't even take into account his total inability to keep anyone in front of him. Stick by my original post :)

bernard wrote:Posted this before I read the win shares post. Hard to believe. Just watching the guy play "d" is painful. But the data is the data. Stand corrected.

bernard wrote:Guards as a whole might be worst in the league. AA is a mid-tier starting 2; Calderon is among the league's worst starting 1's. Gallo is a mid-tier 1st guard off the bench. Everyone else we have is well below average for how much burn they get. If we could upgrade at the point, we'd be very solid and dangerous as a team. I agree.

PER is still a number based on production. Jose isnt a guy who fills the stat sheet. WS/48 is a better indication.

Jose has the best eFG% and TS% on the team. He's got a 4-1 TO ratio. While he has limitations he also makes heady game changing plays like that layup to go ahead the other day or the defend on Heyward resulting in the travel last night.

Jose has plenty of limitations, but this stuff about him being the worst in the league or total garbage is just that... total garbage. He's a stop gap guy for one more year, and he's playing very well. He hit a huge 3 last night as well. He also runs the offense very well. All that shouting and pointing he does isnt for show. He's a floor general.

well said, fish. this isn't a video game where you can have an all-star at every position. the pg position, moreso than anything else, is a position, where you want a guy who makes heady plays and knows how to run the team. this is exactly what calderon does. he's not the prettiest of players, but he gets the job done and is important to this team. i would love more production from our PG spot, but its far away from being a detriment to us.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the equation was not how well Calderon may or may not be playing. Its is he the worst PG and/or starting PG in the NBA.

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Our guards go 3 deep--aint gonna get it done in the playoffs.

Probably not, no.

That's why the other 28 teams will watch the two teams in the Finals.

Inferior talent.

That's defeatist---I dont do defeatist unless its in our best interests to lose.

I don't think there's a real way to upgrade the guard corps until the summer. I think next year we can legit contend for the finals if we upgrade the PG and add some depth at the 2/3. I'd love Batum. Sounds like Conley may stay in Memphis, but you have to ask him.

If the Knicks could get Tyler Johnson and Batum this summer? I think then you have an argument they could get to the Finals. They ain't gonna beat the Warriors, but they could get out of the East, unless the Cavs make major changes.

I dont want to be mean but it takes a real lot to be as bad as Jerian Grant has been. He had 1-2 games this year. Its of my opinion there are SEVERAL guards in the D League alone who are better than Sasha and Jerian. They simply cannot make a shot they can drive they cant do much if anything?? I mean position 4-5 ion the guard corp--we can make an effort to improve it. We need 2 God forbid injury than even worse.

You're entitled to your opinion about Grant.

You're ON RECORD as being way too impatient and way too premature on Lopez, but we'll roll with this anyway.

To suggest the Knicks are a D-League player away from being a legitimate contender - that THAT is the difference between contending or not, is just not credible.

Im not suggesting that--Im willing "in the right scenario" to bring back a pro guard under the age of 28 using Grant as trade bait. You seem to twist what other say way off. The Sixers just improved their team dramatically by trading 2 second round picks. Would you take Ish Smith right now for Jerian Grant---yep. Are there D league guards better than Jerian Grant and Sasha right now--you know there are.

Nope.

Smoth didn't begin to have a pulse in this league until his 4th season. During his first 3 seasons/121 games in the NBA, he was inferior to Grant.

And I don't know there are better guards in the league than Grant. Phil Jackson doesn't seem to think so either.

Either way, Knicks are not signing a D-League player and inserting them into the rotation.

Your comprehension skills are very poor. Is Ish Smith right now TODAY this moment much better than Jerian Grant? Easy answer YES.

Your question was - and I'm copying and pasting here - "Would you take Ish Smith right now for Jerian Grant---yep."

Nope, I wouldn't take Ish Smith right now FOR Grant. I'd hold onto Grant because sometimes rookies get better.

How did the Sixers acquire Smith--with not much. So my point is there are possibilities we can improve the team using not much. Well its done every year. Right now you cna insert 75% of the D league into Jeriuan Grants spot and you'll get atleast similar output. Hes been terrible. Jerian right now needs to go to the D league.

And how is your current Grant fixation any different than your previous Lopez fixation?

The point is Knicks just aren't greatly improving by adding a D-leaguer at the end of the bench to play a couple of mins a night.

I understand the appeal of the idea of turning nothing into something, but there is a reason why they guys are in the D-League and not NBA rosters.

So if you are the Knicks--you wouldnt try to look around the NBA LIKE Philly did with Ish? I know this--95% of the guards in the NBA are better than Sasha and Jerian right now.

BRIGGS wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Our guards go 3 deep--aint gonna get it done in the playoffs.

Probably not, no.

That's why the other 28 teams will watch the two teams in the Finals.

Inferior talent.

That's defeatist---I dont do defeatist unless its in our best interests to lose.

I don't think there's a real way to upgrade the guard corps until the summer. I think next year we can legit contend for the finals if we upgrade the PG and add some depth at the 2/3. I'd love Batum. Sounds like Conley may stay in Memphis, but you have to ask him.

If the Knicks could get Tyler Johnson and Batum this summer? I think then you have an argument they could get to the Finals. They ain't gonna beat the Warriors, but they could get out of the East, unless the Cavs make major changes.

I dont want to be mean but it takes a real lot to be as bad as Jerian Grant has been. He had 1-2 games this year. Its of my opinion there are SEVERAL guards in the D League alone who are better than Sasha and Jerian. They simply cannot make a shot they can drive they cant do much if anything?? I mean position 4-5 ion the guard corp--we can make an effort to improve it. We need 2 God forbid injury than even worse.

You're entitled to your opinion about Grant.

You're ON RECORD as being way too impatient and way too premature on Lopez, but we'll roll with this anyway.

To suggest the Knicks are a D-League player away from being a legitimate contender - that THAT is the difference between contending or not, is just not credible.

Im not suggesting that--Im willing "in the right scenario" to bring back a pro guard under the age of 28 using Grant as trade bait. You seem to twist what other say way off. The Sixers just improved their team dramatically by trading 2 second round picks. Would you take Ish Smith right now for Jerian Grant---yep. Are there D league guards better than Jerian Grant and Sasha right now--you know there are.

Nope.

Smoth didn't begin to have a pulse in this league until his 4th season. During his first 3 seasons/121 games in the NBA, he was inferior to Grant.

And I don't know there are better guards in the league than Grant. Phil Jackson doesn't seem to think so either.

Either way, Knicks are not signing a D-League player and inserting them into the rotation.

Your comprehension skills are very poor. Is Ish Smith right now TODAY this moment much better than Jerian Grant? Easy answer YES.

Your question was - and I'm copying and pasting here - "Would you take Ish Smith right now for Jerian Grant---yep."

Nope, I wouldn't take Ish Smith right now FOR Grant. I'd hold onto Grant because sometimes rookies get better.

How did the Sixers acquire Smith--with not much. So my point is there are possibilities we can improve the team using not much. Well its done every year. Right now you cna insert 75% of the D league into Jeriuan Grants spot and you'll get atleast similar output. Hes been terrible. Jerian right now needs to go to the D league.

And how is your current Grant fixation any different than your previous Lopez fixation?

The point is Knicks just aren't greatly improving by adding a D-leaguer at the end of the bench to play a couple of mins a night.

I understand the appeal of the idea of turning nothing into something, but there is a reason why they guys are in the D-League and not NBA rosters.

So if you are the Knicks--you wouldnt try to look around the NBA LIKE Philly did with Ish? I know this--95% of the guards in the NBA are better than Sasha and Jerian right now.

Look? Sure.

But no, I don't expect the Knicks to bench Grant in favor of a D-Leaguer.

That is the anti-thesis of what it is to have a rookie.

If you don't want to live through rookie stuggles, don't draft.

TPercy wrote:

bernard wrote:Name 5 NBA starting 1's worse than Calderon.

Knickoftime wrote:

bernard wrote:Calderon is among the league's worst starting 1's.

No, he isn't.

Elfrid Payton
MCW
Jarret Jack
Russell
Mudiay

Knickoftime wrote:

bernard wrote:Wait a minute. This ranks Jose 46 among PG's. http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/pg based on PER, which doesn't even take into account his total inability to keep anyone in front of him. Stick by my original post :)

bernard wrote:Posted this before I read the win shares post. Hard to believe. Just watching the guy play "d" is painful. But the data is the data. Stand corrected.

bernard wrote:Guards as a whole might be worst in the league. AA is a mid-tier starting 2; Calderon is among the league's worst starting 1's. Gallo is a mid-tier 1st guard off the bench. Everyone else we have is well below average for how much burn they get. If we could upgrade at the point, we'd be very solid and dangerous as a team. I agree.

You're including all PGs and not just starting PGs and he is limited by his role in the triangle.

Try this one.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM/position/1

Guys, if you notice the first backup PG on that list is Dennis Schroeder...someone I have said is better than Teague for their team for a while. Can we trade for him?

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Our guards go 3 deep--aint gonna get it done in the playoffs.

Probably not, no.

That's why the other 28 teams will watch the two teams in the Finals.

Inferior talent.

That's defeatist---I dont do defeatist unless its in our best interests to lose.

I don't think there's a real way to upgrade the guard corps until the summer. I think next year we can legit contend for the finals if we upgrade the PG and add some depth at the 2/3. I'd love Batum. Sounds like Conley may stay in Memphis, but you have to ask him.

If the Knicks could get Tyler Johnson and Batum this summer? I think then you have an argument they could get to the Finals. They ain't gonna beat the Warriors, but they could get out of the East, unless the Cavs make major changes.

I dont want to be mean but it takes a real lot to be as bad as Jerian Grant has been. He had 1-2 games this year. Its of my opinion there are SEVERAL guards in the D League alone who are better than Sasha and Jerian. They simply cannot make a shot they can drive they cant do much if anything?? I mean position 4-5 ion the guard corp--we can make an effort to improve it. We need 2 God forbid injury than even worse.

You're entitled to your opinion about Grant.

You're ON RECORD as being way too impatient and way too premature on Lopez, but we'll roll with this anyway.

To suggest the Knicks are a D-League player away from being a legitimate contender - that THAT is the difference between contending or not, is just not credible.

Im not suggesting that--Im willing "in the right scenario" to bring back a pro guard under the age of 28 using Grant as trade bait. You seem to twist what other say way off. The Sixers just improved their team dramatically by trading 2 second round picks. Would you take Ish Smith right now for Jerian Grant---yep. Are there D league guards better than Jerian Grant and Sasha right now--you know there are.

Nope.

Smoth didn't begin to have a pulse in this league until his 4th season. During his first 3 seasons/121 games in the NBA, he was inferior to Grant.

And I don't know there are better guards in the league than Grant. Phil Jackson doesn't seem to think so either.

Either way, Knicks are not signing a D-League player and inserting them into the rotation.

Your comprehension skills are very poor. Is Ish Smith right now TODAY this moment much better than Jerian Grant? Easy answer YES.

Your question was - and I'm copying and pasting here - "Would you take Ish Smith right now for Jerian Grant---yep."

Nope, I wouldn't take Ish Smith right now FOR Grant. I'd hold onto Grant because sometimes rookies get better.

How did the Sixers acquire Smith--with not much. So my point is there are possibilities we can improve the team using not much. Well its done every year. Right now you cna insert 75% of the D league into Jeriuan Grants spot and you'll get atleast similar output. Hes been terrible. Jerian right now needs to go to the D league.

And how is your current Grant fixation any different than your previous Lopez fixation?

The point is Knicks just aren't greatly improving by adding a D-leaguer at the end of the bench to play a couple of mins a night.

I understand the appeal of the idea of turning nothing into something, but there is a reason why they guys are in the D-League and not NBA rosters.

So if you are the Knicks--you wouldnt try to look around the NBA LIKE Philly did with Ish? I know this--95% of the guards in the NBA are better than Sasha and Jerian right now.

Look? Sure.

But no, I don't expect the Knicks to bench Grant in favor of a D-Leaguer.

That is the anti-thesis of what it is to have a rookie.

If you don't want to live through rookie stuggles, don't draft.

Yeah he should be sitting--hes not earning minutes. I think its imperative a rookie earns minutes and we are not in a position right now to let a guy feel his way--we want to win?????? We are a playoff team that has potential to make a deep run--we need to look for was to improve our guard play and also the need for guard depth in case of injury.

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Our guards go 3 deep--aint gonna get it done in the playoffs.

Probably not, no.

That's why the other 28 teams will watch the two teams in the Finals.

Inferior talent.

That's defeatist---I dont do defeatist unless its in our best interests to lose.

I don't think there's a real way to upgrade the guard corps until the summer. I think next year we can legit contend for the finals if we upgrade the PG and add some depth at the 2/3. I'd love Batum. Sounds like Conley may stay in Memphis, but you have to ask him.

If the Knicks could get Tyler Johnson and Batum this summer? I think then you have an argument they could get to the Finals. They ain't gonna beat the Warriors, but they could get out of the East, unless the Cavs make major changes.

I dont want to be mean but it takes a real lot to be as bad as Jerian Grant has been. He had 1-2 games this year. Its of my opinion there are SEVERAL guards in the D League alone who are better than Sasha and Jerian. They simply cannot make a shot they can drive they cant do much if anything?? I mean position 4-5 ion the guard corp--we can make an effort to improve it. We need 2 God forbid injury than even worse.

You're entitled to your opinion about Grant.

You're ON RECORD as being way too impatient and way too premature on Lopez, but we'll roll with this anyway.

To suggest the Knicks are a D-League player away from being a legitimate contender - that THAT is the difference between contending or not, is just not credible.

Im not suggesting that--Im willing "in the right scenario" to bring back a pro guard under the age of 28 using Grant as trade bait. You seem to twist what other say way off. The Sixers just improved their team dramatically by trading 2 second round picks. Would you take Ish Smith right now for Jerian Grant---yep. Are there D league guards better than Jerian Grant and Sasha right now--you know there are.

Nope.

Smoth didn't begin to have a pulse in this league until his 4th season. During his first 3 seasons/121 games in the NBA, he was inferior to Grant.

And I don't know there are better guards in the league than Grant. Phil Jackson doesn't seem to think so either.

Either way, Knicks are not signing a D-League player and inserting them into the rotation.

Your comprehension skills are very poor. Is Ish Smith right now TODAY this moment much better than Jerian Grant? Easy answer YES.

Your question was - and I'm copying and pasting here - "Would you take Ish Smith right now for Jerian Grant---yep."

Nope, I wouldn't take Ish Smith right now FOR Grant. I'd hold onto Grant because sometimes rookies get better.

How did the Sixers acquire Smith--with not much. So my point is there are possibilities we can improve the team using not much. Well its done every year. Right now you cna insert 75% of the D league into Jeriuan Grants spot and you'll get atleast similar output. Hes been terrible. Jerian right now needs to go to the D league.

And how is your current Grant fixation any different than your previous Lopez fixation?

The point is Knicks just aren't greatly improving by adding a D-leaguer at the end of the bench to play a couple of mins a night.

I understand the appeal of the idea of turning nothing into something, but there is a reason why they guys are in the D-League and not NBA rosters.

So if you are the Knicks--you wouldnt try to look around the NBA LIKE Philly did with Ish? I know this--95% of the guards in the NBA are better than Sasha and Jerian right now.

Look? Sure.

But no, I don't expect the Knicks to bench Grant in favor of a D-Leaguer.

That is the anti-thesis of what it is to have a rookie.

If you don't want to live through rookie stuggles, don't draft.

Yeah he should be sitting--hes not earning minutes. I think its imperative a rookie earns minutes and we are not in a position right now to let a guy feel his way--we want to win?????? We are a playoff team that has potential to make a deep run--we need to look for was to improve our guard play and also the need for guard depth in case of injury.

How come you're not answering the Lopez question? You bailed on him prematurely and admit it. Isn't there a chance you're bailing on Grant too early too?

Either way, saying the Knicks are a playoff team with the potential for a deep run is somewhat superfluous. Knicks aren't at the moment one of the top 16 qualifying teams. If the Knicks have that potential, who doesn't?

The constant theme of your post Briggs is you seem to think it is just a matter of scouting D-League players and late first/second round picks. I think it's fair to point out this avenue is available to all 30 teams trying to improve their roster/record/playoff seeding.

The reason you don't see many draft picks (first or second round) make an immediate impact and the reason you don't see many D-League call-ups make any impact is because talent is incredibly hard to come by in the NBA. That's why marginal free agents get paid so highly in the NBA. The Knicks bought their own D-League affiliate. They have a success story on their roster in Galloway. They are obviously invested in development. Maybe the reason they haven't called anyone up despite an empty roster spot and a currently effective 13 man roster is they don't believe there is anyone who can help them?

Robin Lopez is a proven NBA player??