gunsnewing wrote:Fisher will be evaluated at the end of the year. We finish with 40+ wins and make the playoffs he gets another full year and likely more. If we stumble again which I doubt since this team is starting to gel but let's say we win south of 35 games the. He will be on a short leash to start the year next season. It's quite simple. Fisher is in a completely different situation than Woodson. The Mnicks built it attempted to build a win now team for Woodson and he failed miserably. Fisher is starting from scratch. Not only is he learning to coach on the job but he is coaching a team that hit the reset button and is fortunate enough to have drafted a potential cornerstone franchise player who will be here for 15+ years. This is only the beginning. Everyone benefits from continuity in this case. They are learning to win together. On the same timeline. The end result will be very rewarding if they stick to the plan IMO

No he won't.

Generally, it's not the way you manage or the way Phil's philosophy portents to manage.

Phil was pretty sure about taking a chance on Fish. He obviously saw a lot of potential in Fish and I doubt that he was really expecting to have a quick hook. Phil knows what it's like to be a head coach and he's gonna be much more patient knowing this is a tough system for players to master and he gave him a nearly completely new team. Hovering about .500 at this stage of the season is not a bad thing given the circumstances. Now they have to close out the season strong and get above .500, which is in their power to do.

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:I believe the jury is still out on Fisher. Id like to see how he finishes the season, and if we make the playoffs. Not sold yet on bringing him back next season although it seems likely. Im not suggesting that KP and Grant are being hurt by Fisher as coach, KP is a ROY candidate. I am suggesting that I dont want to see Fisher next season if (after the all star break) Fisher cant get a good run out of the healthiest, most talented roster, in many years. I want the best coach for our potential superstar big man, and Im still not sure that its Fisher. I do like the job he has done over the last few games though.

As for Lopez, was saying that I'd rather have Lopez than Monroe before the signing. Especially in the playoffs where the game slows down, and someone with Rolo's skill set becomes very important.

So I could never understand this type of reasoning. A team, just like a rotation, can't get consistency and eventually get better with constant flip-flopping.

The Knicks have been thru how many coaches and GM's over the past 15 years? You don't run an organization like that and expect good results. For me this is year 1 for Fish and Phil and the rebuild start point. If you put unreal expectations at the cost of bringing him back next year, nothing good will happen, mostly you'll just get stressed out. BTW, I am OK with what you are saying but I do know that Phil aint gonna flip Fish for another coach unless he goes winless from all-star until end of year, it just ain't happening.

We had D'Antoni for how long before he bailed on us? Did MDA have enough time to show something? Dolan's itchy trigger finger a decade ago, shouldnt keep us from finding the best coach available.

Woodson by the time he left, wasnt even trying to coach, did you want him to get 4 years to sort things out? I sure didnt. There is more than half a season for Fisher to show that he can win some games, I dont have a set number, just want to see him get the most out of the talent he has. If he can do that now that the team is starting to gel, then great. If not, Id like to see us to a proper search, and if someone better is available then hire them.

Team is playing well, Fisher has always been a strong leader, he has the lockerroom, every player sans Early has been in the rotation and had a chance to play and despite all the rotations and some of the losses you havent heard one peep from the players complaining about anything aside from losing in itself.

A marginal upgrade at coach is a step backward. Whats the message? When Fisher gets outcoached in the playoffs then we can talk. My 45 win total prediction has been scoffed at by many, and most have picked the Knicks to win in the mid to low 30s, so whats the expectation?

Depends on the margin, lol. If a good, successful, coach became available, and Fisher finishes the season still throwing things against the wall to see what sticks, then absolutely I want other coaches interviewed. Plenty of teams have coaches who are liked by their players, plenty of bad teams. Just want proof the man can coach well for more than a few games, and as far as Im concerned the jury is still out.

There really isn't much doubt that Fish can coach. Now is he going to become a good or even elite coach? That's the question. He's an average coach IMO right now. He's got a lot of games left to prove he's more than that.

nixluva wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:I believe the jury is still out on Fisher. Id like to see how he finishes the season, and if we make the playoffs. Not sold yet on bringing him back next season although it seems likely. Im not suggesting that KP and Grant are being hurt by Fisher as coach, KP is a ROY candidate. I am suggesting that I dont want to see Fisher next season if (after the all star break) Fisher cant get a good run out of the healthiest, most talented roster, in many years. I want the best coach for our potential superstar big man, and Im still not sure that its Fisher. I do like the job he has done over the last few games though.

As for Lopez, was saying that I'd rather have Lopez than Monroe before the signing. Especially in the playoffs where the game slows down, and someone with Rolo's skill set becomes very important.

So I could never understand this type of reasoning. A team, just like a rotation, can't get consistency and eventually get better with constant flip-flopping.

The Knicks have been thru how many coaches and GM's over the past 15 years? You don't run an organization like that and expect good results. For me this is year 1 for Fish and Phil and the rebuild start point. If you put unreal expectations at the cost of bringing him back next year, nothing good will happen, mostly you'll just get stressed out. BTW, I am OK with what you are saying but I do know that Phil aint gonna flip Fish for another coach unless he goes winless from all-star until end of year, it just ain't happening.

We had D'Antoni for how long before he bailed on us? Did MDA have enough time to show something? Dolan's itchy trigger finger a decade ago, shouldnt keep us from finding the best coach available.

Woodson by the time he left, wasnt even trying to coach, did you want him to get 4 years to sort things out? I sure didnt. There is more than half a season for Fisher to show that he can win some games, I dont have a set number, just want to see him get the most out of the talent he has. If he can do that now that the team is starting to gel, then great. If not, Id like to see us to a proper search, and if someone better is available then hire them.

Team is playing well, Fisher has always been a strong leader, he has the lockerroom, every player sans Early has been in the rotation and had a chance to play and despite all the rotations and some of the losses you havent heard one peep from the players complaining about anything aside from losing in itself.

A marginal upgrade at coach is a step backward. Whats the message? When Fisher gets outcoached in the playoffs then we can talk. My 45 win total prediction has been scoffed at by many, and most have picked the Knicks to win in the mid to low 30s, so whats the expectation?

Depends on the margin, lol. If a good, successful, coach became available, and Fisher finishes the season still throwing things against the wall to see what sticks, then absolutely I want other coaches interviewed. Plenty of teams have coaches who are liked by their players, plenty of bad teams. Just want proof the man can coach well for more than a few games, and as far as Im concerned the jury is still out.

I don't think there's any chance that Fisher is gonna go back to experimenting with the rotation like he did early. There was a purpose to him experimenting early in the season. Now he's got all the info he needs and there's no reason to muck around with the rotation at this point. Aside from Foul Trouble or Injury or serious slumping I think Fish is very comfortable with his current rotation.

There really isn't much doubt that Fish can coach. Now is he going to become a good or even elite coach? That's the question. He's an average coach IMO right now. He's got a lot of games left to prove he's more than that.

I hope you're right. Not asking for much, just a little consistency from a talented, and healthy roster (knocks on wood).

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:I believe the jury is still out on Fisher. Id like to see how he finishes the season, and if we make the playoffs. Not sold yet on bringing him back next season although it seems likely. Im not suggesting that KP and Grant are being hurt by Fisher as coach, KP is a ROY candidate. I am suggesting that I dont want to see Fisher next season if (after the all star break) Fisher cant get a good run out of the healthiest, most talented roster, in many years. I want the best coach for our potential superstar big man, and Im still not sure that its Fisher. I do like the job he has done over the last few games though.

As for Lopez, was saying that I'd rather have Lopez than Monroe before the signing. Especially in the playoffs where the game slows down, and someone with Rolo's skill set becomes very important.

So I could never understand this type of reasoning. A team, just like a rotation, can't get consistency and eventually get better with constant flip-flopping.

The Knicks have been thru how many coaches and GM's over the past 15 years? You don't run an organization like that and expect good results. For me this is year 1 for Fish and Phil and the rebuild start point. If you put unreal expectations at the cost of bringing him back next year, nothing good will happen, mostly you'll just get stressed out. BTW, I am OK with what you are saying but I do know that Phil aint gonna flip Fish for another coach unless he goes winless from all-star until end of year, it just ain't happening.

We had D'Antoni for how long before he bailed on us? Did MDA have enough time to show something? Dolan's itchy trigger finger a decade ago, shouldnt keep us from finding the best coach available.

Woodson by the time he left, wasnt even trying to coach, did you want him to get 4 years to sort things out? I sure didnt. There is more than half a season for Fisher to show that he can win some games, I dont have a set number, just want to see him get the most out of the talent he has. If he can do that now that the team is starting to gel, then great. If not, Id like to see us to a proper search, and if someone better is available then hire them.

I think you can answer your own questions well enough.

For any organization to move forward, you need to be on the same plan from top to bottom. GM to coach to players. I don't think the MDA to Woodson years were the hallmark of consistency. At all. Coaches fault? Players fault? I say the organization as a whole was caca.

Right now we got a good thing doing and I'd be hard pressed to just throw out a main cog cause of an arbitrary all-star to end of year time period.

Also, your assumption is that another coach is magically out there and that that coach has the midas touch.

Thanks Martin, somebody has to.

Hate to ask you more questions, but how long do you want to give Fisher? How many years of Melo's prime do you want to give Fisher the time to find himself as a coach? I just want to see proof this season that he can get this team to play well and consistently.

There were were times when Fisher had things working on the floor, then he would change things up again and send the team into a tailspin. Hopefully things are changing. Want the second half of the season to be better than the first. That will make want Fisher to stay.

Every year you set a level of expectation while looking at the other variables around him as coach. At the beginning of this year I would have given Fish a 2 year window and assessed every 6 months, resetting expectations and goals as necessary. I wouldn't think in terms of Melo's timeline but rather the team's overall progress and timeline. In fact, KP's timeline is more important.

I have stated before that I wouldn't even start assessing until somwehere between 40-60 games.

For me, last year was a throwaway for any coach cause of roster turnover and lack of talent.

If Fisher had a track record as a coach, I might be more patient. I am concerned about Melo's timeline because I believe its a big waste of the salary cap not to. I dont believe another season of Fisher trying to figure things out is good for anybody if he cant get this roster to play with some consistency.

There is still more than enough time for Fisher to prove that he can take this team to the next level. Just because there isnt a "mythical coach" on tap, doesnt mean we should stay with a coach, if he isnt up to the job. I havent seen enough evidence that he is yet. Not saying Fisher wont be a good coach, only that he hasnt come close to proving it yet, and I dont want to wait another season to find out.

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:If Fisher had a track record as a coach, I might be more patient. I am concerned about Melo's timeline because I believe its a big waste of the salary cap not to. I dont believe another season of Fisher trying to figure things out is good for anybody if he cant get this roster to play with some consistency.

There is still more than enough time for Fisher to prove that he can take this team to the next level. Just because there isnt a "mythical coach" on tap, doesnt mean we should stay with a coach, if he isnt up to the job. I havent seen enough evidence that he is yet. Not saying Fisher wont be a good coach, only that he hasnt come close to proving it yet, and I dont want to wait another season to find out.

Well, how do you judge Fish so far? And how would you judge him going forward? You already seem to suggest that firing him at the end of this season is a real possibility for you.

Is firing a coach that really healthy for the team? And is it even realistic?

Before this mini run, Gallo has developed nicely over the past year. KP, all by himself and also at the direction of the team has done very well. Last year was so scrub'ish at yet the guys were responding with enthusiastic play. The team responded to Fish calling them out in the media this past week. Before this year Rolo was never a post player.... and perhaps there is a hint of light on that. DWill before this year has been TRASHED by each team and coach, better this year?

I've seen enough to know that guys are responding and pointed in the right direction to not even think about letting him go at the end of this season without knowing the outcome (although I do have an expectation).

All the things you mentioned are good, but one major element has been lacking, and thats Fisher's skill as a tactician. You asked how I would judge him? Thats how I judge him going forward. You can get your team to run through a brick wall for you, but its good to be able to guide them around it too if neccesary.

Lately he's been finding out that sometimes small, effective, adjustments can have more of an impact than trying to do too much. I believe this season is enough time for Fisher to show growth as a tactitian. If not, Id like to see the Knicks get a better one, if available.

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:If Fisher had a track record as a coach, I might be more patient. I am concerned about Melo's timeline because I believe its a big waste of the salary cap not to. I dont believe another season of Fisher trying to figure things out is good for anybody if he cant get this roster to play with some consistency.

There is still more than enough time for Fisher to prove that he can take this team to the next level. Just because there isnt a "mythical coach" on tap, doesnt mean we should stay with a coach, if he isnt up to the job. I havent seen enough evidence that he is yet. Not saying Fisher wont be a good coach, only that he hasnt come close to proving it yet, and I dont want to wait another season to find out.

Well, how do you judge Fish so far? And how would you judge him going forward? You already seem to suggest that firing him at the end of this season is a real possibility for you.

Is firing a coach that really healthy for the team? And is it even realistic?

Before this mini run, Gallo has developed nicely over the past year. KP, all by himself and also at the direction of the team has done very well. Last year was so scrub'ish at yet the guys were responding with enthusiastic play. The team responded to Fish calling them out in the media this past week. Before this year Rolo was never a post player.... and perhaps there is a hint of light on that. DWill before this year has been TRASHED by each team and coach, better this year?

I've seen enough to know that guys are responding and pointed in the right direction to not even think about letting him go at the end of this season without knowing the outcome (although I do have an expectation).

All the things you mentioned are good, but one major element has been lacking, and thats Fisher's skill as a tactician. You asked how I would judge him? Thats how I judge him going forward. You can get your team to run through a brick wall for you, but its good to be able to guide them around it too if neccesary.

Lately he's been finding out that sometimes small, effective, adjustments can have more of an impact than trying to do too much. I believe this season is enough time for Fisher to show growth as a tactitian. If not, Id like to see the Knicks get a better one, if available.

Tactician??? I sometimes wonder when people say this about Fish if they ever consider that it is a process getting used to a team with 9 new players and teaching them to run a complicated system that asks all the players to think the game at a high level and as a group! There is nothing easy about getting a group of players to execute this system the way we've seen the last few games. Tactics is literally all he teaching his players as this is a READ and REACT offense.

Now he's been showing improvement on his feel for the game and his players so I think his tactics are coming along fine. Better tactics than Budenholzer or Spoelstra!

nixluva wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:If Fisher had a track record as a coach, I might be more patient. I am concerned about Melo's timeline because I believe its a big waste of the salary cap not to. I dont believe another season of Fisher trying to figure things out is good for anybody if he cant get this roster to play with some consistency.

There is still more than enough time for Fisher to prove that he can take this team to the next level. Just because there isnt a "mythical coach" on tap, doesnt mean we should stay with a coach, if he isnt up to the job. I havent seen enough evidence that he is yet. Not saying Fisher wont be a good coach, only that he hasnt come close to proving it yet, and I dont want to wait another season to find out.

Well, how do you judge Fish so far? And how would you judge him going forward? You already seem to suggest that firing him at the end of this season is a real possibility for you.

Is firing a coach that really healthy for the team? And is it even realistic?

Before this mini run, Gallo has developed nicely over the past year. KP, all by himself and also at the direction of the team has done very well. Last year was so scrub'ish at yet the guys were responding with enthusiastic play. The team responded to Fish calling them out in the media this past week. Before this year Rolo was never a post player.... and perhaps there is a hint of light on that. DWill before this year has been TRASHED by each team and coach, better this year?

I've seen enough to know that guys are responding and pointed in the right direction to not even think about letting him go at the end of this season without knowing the outcome (although I do have an expectation).

All the things you mentioned are good, but one major element has been lacking, and thats Fisher's skill as a tactician. You asked how I would judge him? Thats how I judge him going forward. You can get your team to run through a brick wall for you, but its good to be able to guide them around it too if neccesary.

Lately he's been finding out that sometimes small, effective, adjustments can have more of an impact than trying to do too much. I believe this season is enough time for Fisher to show growth as a tactitian. If not, Id like to see the Knicks get a better one, if available.

Tactician??? I sometimes wonder when people say this about Fish if they ever consider that it is a process getting used to a team with 9 new players and teaching them to run a complicated system that asks all the players to think the game at a high level and as a group! There is nothing easy about getting a group of players to execute this system the way we've seen the last few games. Tactics is literally all he teaching his players as this is a READ and REACT offense.

Now he's been showing improvement on his feel for the game and his players so I think his tactics are coming along fine. Better tactics than Budenholzer or Spoelstra!

Sometimes I wonder how someone who has gotten so much wrong about this team over the years (far more than I have, thats for sure) can lecture anyone on considering anything.

Fisher makes adjustments when none are needed, and often too many. Ive seen rookie coaches do more with less. Preach the Gospel all you want, I want to see him make better in game decisions.

martin wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Fisher will be evaluated at the end of the year. We finish with 40+ wins and make the playoffs he gets another full year and likely more. If we stumble again which I doubt since this team is starting to gel but let's say we win south of 35 games the. He will be on a short leash to start the year next season. It's quite simple. Fisher is in a completely different situation than Woodson. The Mnicks built it attempted to build a win now team for Woodson and he failed miserably. Fisher is starting from scratch. Not only is he learning to coach on the job but he is coaching a team that hit the reset button and is fortunate enough to have drafted a potential cornerstone franchise player who will be here for 15+ years. This is only the beginning. Everyone benefits from continuity in this case. They are learning to win together. On the same timeline. The end result will be very rewarding if they stick to the plan IMO

No he won't.

Generally, it's not the way you manage or the way Phil's philosophy portents to manage.

Generally no but this is New York. For all we know Phil had already considered finding a new coach had they not turned things around. He was not happy with how the players decided to just play their way and ignore all the things they've talked about for almost 2yrs. Someone laid down the hammer. Whether it was Fisher, Rambis or Phil to finally get them to play the right way. I know Fisher laid into the team after the Chicago game about bringing energy from the tip and they've been bringing it since.

IMO we are not looking reverting to old habits and going backwards. Only forward from here on out but trust me a sub 35 win season followed by a slow 1st half start next year and lack of progress from Fish will led to a change. Fisher doesn't have the cache warrant Dantoni like job security. I'm hoping we 40+ games this year and 45+ next year and keep trending upwards and eventually become a perennial contender in the East