StarksEwing1 wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

knickscity wrote:When the Knicks are sitting home again after mid April we'll be talking about how they run didnt the offense properly. Thats why they arent in the playoffs again for the third straight year.

Lol.

Why don't you guys take your juvenile argument to another thread cause this thread is for talking about who the Knicks should trade for or bring in from the D-League or anything else about what players we need to help us get to that next level.

agreed. Especially nixluva who needs to respect others opinion too

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/HoopsHypeCA/status/679933542521040897

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:
For the most part the league as a whole only use part or principles but dont run it exclusively. The triangle is an oudated offense, any coach will tell you that. Those same coaches know that they also dont have time to instill it especially considering it goes against what players do in this day and winning is expected. Now way Fisher would have been given this amount of rope if his mentor wasnt a triangle promoter.

I know you're gonna say it doesnt prevent guys from driving to the goal with the ball....yes it actually does. While the teams talent has improved, the style of play is still behind the NBA scene. You cant keep blaming the players, it is the offense. The triangle doesnt promote a fast break, drawing fouls at the line or drives into the paint. It focuses on mid range action. Doesnt mean those things cant happen within the offense, but the triangle itself does not promote such things.

An offense needs to suit your players, plain and simple. There's a reason why a player like Calderon was picked and not a player like Rondo for instance. Rondo calls his number, runs a play based on what he sees. Calderon merely makes a safe ball movement pass. The triangle does not allow such play for a Rondo.. You have to break it to do it. Kobe Jordan and others have done so, but top players of the game can be effective just by handing them the ball.

Some actually believe a prime Jordan or Kobe wouldnt have won anything without the triangle.....utterly ridiculous.

You don't really understand the Triangle and it's clear from your comments that you don't.

Did you know that there is an entire aspect of the Triangle addressing Transition? So this notion that it limits fast breaks is completely wrong. Did you know that there is PnR action in the Triangle even if they don't make it the center of the offense? Did you know that there is a 4 out option in the offense? There are so many aspects that people don't realize but just make assumptions about the offense. There are dribble weaves and all kinds of actions leading to drives to the basket and not just mid range stuff. They don't really want players standing around and the ball stopping. The better they get at this the better the offense will work. The more they learn this offense as a group the faster they'll be and it will be harder to defend. I'm speaking from actual knowledge of the offense and not just out of my ass.

The thing is that it takes time to learn all of these things and in the heat of the action a young player can get mental paralysis which makes it seem like there are no options when there are. The longer our players play in this system the better they will get and that's the reason you stick with it. It's nonsense to talk about it being an outdated system. IT'S BASKETBALL!

Maybe you dont understand the triangle. Pick and rolls are usually a part of any offense, so why do we run the least of any team? Fast breaks should be a major part of any teams offense. We're dead last in that as well, as well as free throws attempted. The Knicks play a stupid brand of basketball, when they play smarter basically ditching the trinagle, they look better and play better.

We have calderon as our starting point guard, the guy you personally was slobbing on when he first got here that does nothing a real pg should in todays NBA. He fits the triangle perfectly, and thats why he's here.

I really think no matter what we run you'll be singing from the rooftops trying to support it. Fine, do you. But the Knicks have an very outdated system, and not only will they not make the playoffs running it, they wont prove Phil is right that this system works.

You're speaking from ignorance and don't know what you're talking about!!! If you did know you wouldn't be saying what you are saying. We're not dead last in Fast Breaks because of the Triangle. The Knicks don't ditch the Triangle. The thing you see when they are playing well is that they are actually executing the offense properly.

Just cuz they score in other ways besides the Side Triangle doesn't mean that they "ditched" the Triangle. You just don't realize that there's more to the offense than the Side Triangle. As i've said OVER AND OVER, the Triple Post Offense is more than the Side Triangle!!! If people would stop focusing on only the Side Triangle and learn more about the offense they'd know this.

THE KNICKS DO NOT DITCH THE TRIANGLE! I can prove to you that they are very much still running the offense. The problem is that you and many others think that the Side Triangle is the total offense when it's not. You don't know all the other sets and actions and so when they do them you don't recognize that it's still part of the SYSTEM as a whole. They aren't just freelancing all the time when they aren't in Side Triangle.

are offense is not a spread offense and we do set the least picks yet you skipped over this in your rebuttal(s)

The offense doesn't feature a lot of screens. Mostly it's Intersects where players cross each other and you get Dribble Hand offs. You can however, get into PnR action, Give and Go etc. You can also flow into a 4 out setup which is part of the offense.

The difference is that it's not a primary feature of the offense. Playing 4 out PnR offense isn't the only way to play the game.

nixluva wrote:The thing is that it takes time to learn all of these things and in the heat of the action a young player can get mental paralysis which makes it seem like there are no options when there are.

(1) players taking time to learn Triangle playing
(2) coach taking time to learn Triangle coaching

Malcolm wrote:

nixluva wrote:You're speaking from ignorance and don't know what you're talking about!!! If you did know you wouldn't be saying what you are saying. We're not dead last in Fast Breaks because of the Triangle.

In support of Nixluva:

NBA Fast break efficiency rankings as of 12/31:

1 Golden State
2 Sacramento
3 Oklahoma City
4 Washington
5 Cleveland
6 Phoenix
7 Dallas
8 Denver
9 New Orleans
10 Miami
11 Chicago
12 Houston
13 Minnesota
14 Milwaukee
15 Indiana
16 LA Clippers
17 Portland
18 LA Lakers
19 Charlotte
20 Orlando
21 Boston
22 Detroit
23 Atlanta
24 Philadelphia
25 Memphis
26 New York
27 Toronto
28 Brooklyn
29 San Antonio
30 Utah

Notice, please, who is #29 . . .

Nix can be messianic at times, but in this case he's right. We have Calderon running the point, until Jose making layups isn't a newsworthy event, we wont be running many teams into the ground. That is unless Grant takes a big leap forward, or we get help.

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:
For the most part the league as a whole only use part or principles but dont run it exclusively. The triangle is an oudated offense, any coach will tell you that. Those same coaches know that they also dont have time to instill it especially considering it goes against what players do in this day and winning is expected. Now way Fisher would have been given this amount of rope if his mentor wasnt a triangle promoter.

I know you're gonna say it doesnt prevent guys from driving to the goal with the ball....yes it actually does. While the teams talent has improved, the style of play is still behind the NBA scene. You cant keep blaming the players, it is the offense. The triangle doesnt promote a fast break, drawing fouls at the line or drives into the paint. It focuses on mid range action. Doesnt mean those things cant happen within the offense, but the triangle itself does not promote such things.

An offense needs to suit your players, plain and simple. There's a reason why a player like Calderon was picked and not a player like Rondo for instance. Rondo calls his number, runs a play based on what he sees. Calderon merely makes a safe ball movement pass. The triangle does not allow such play for a Rondo.. You have to break it to do it. Kobe Jordan and others have done so, but top players of the game can be effective just by handing them the ball.

Some actually believe a prime Jordan or Kobe wouldnt have won anything without the triangle.....utterly ridiculous.

You don't really understand the Triangle and it's clear from your comments that you don't.

Did you know that there is an entire aspect of the Triangle addressing Transition? So this notion that it limits fast breaks is completely wrong. Did you know that there is PnR action in the Triangle even if they don't make it the center of the offense? Did you know that there is a 4 out option in the offense? There are so many aspects that people don't realize but just make assumptions about the offense. There are dribble weaves and all kinds of actions leading to drives to the basket and not just mid range stuff. They don't really want players standing around and the ball stopping. The better they get at this the better the offense will work. The more they learn this offense as a group the faster they'll be and it will be harder to defend. I'm speaking from actual knowledge of the offense and not just out of my ass.

The thing is that it takes time to learn all of these things and in the heat of the action a young player can get mental paralysis which makes it seem like there are no options when there are. The longer our players play in this system the better they will get and that's the reason you stick with it. It's nonsense to talk about it being an outdated system. IT'S BASKETBALL!

Maybe you dont understand the triangle. Pick and rolls are usually a part of any offense, so why do we run the least of any team? Fast breaks should be a major part of any teams offense. We're dead last in that as well, as well as free throws attempted. The Knicks play a stupid brand of basketball, when they play smarter basically ditching the trinagle, they look better and play better.

We have calderon as our starting point guard, the guy you personally was slobbing on when he first got here that does nothing a real pg should in todays NBA. He fits the triangle perfectly, and thats why he's here.

I really think no matter what we run you'll be singing from the rooftops trying to support it. Fine, do you. But the Knicks have an very outdated system, and not only will they not make the playoffs running it, they wont prove Phil is right that this system works.

You're speaking from ignorance and don't know what you're talking about!!! If you did know you wouldn't be saying what you are saying. We're not dead last in Fast Breaks because of the Triangle. The Knicks don't ditch the Triangle. The thing you see when they are playing well is that they are actually executing the offense properly.

Just cuz they score in other ways besides the Side Triangle doesn't mean that they "ditched" the Triangle. You just don't realize that there's more to the offense than the Side Triangle. As i've said OVER AND OVER, the Triple Post Offense is more than the Side Triangle!!! If people would stop focusing on only the Side Triangle and learn more about the offense they'd know this.

THE KNICKS DO NOT DITCH THE TRIANGLE! I can prove to you that they are very much still running the offense. The problem is that you and many others think that the Side Triangle is the total offense when it's not. You don't know all the other sets and actions and so when they do them you don't recognize that it's still part of the SYSTEM as a whole. They aren't just freelancing all the time when they aren't in Side Triangle.

are offense is not a spread offense and we do set the least picks yet you skipped over this in your rebuttal(s)

The ball handler could call for a pick any time he wanted within the offense. Which is why NIX defends that its not the Triangle system but the players.

We also don't push the tempo like we should on a consistent bases due to Calderon not being that type player a this point in his career and Grant and Galloway not being confident enough to take control of the pace though they show flashes.

nixluva wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

knickscity wrote:When the Knicks are sitting home again after mid April we'll be talking about how they run didnt the offense properly. Thats why they arent in the playoffs again for the third straight year.

Lol.

Why don't you guys take your juvenile argument to another thread cause this thread is for talking about who the Knicks should trade for or bring in from the D-League or anything else about what players we need to help us get to that next level.

Sorry man! These guys drive me crazy with comments on the Triangle which I KNOW they don't know what they're talking about because I actually studied the offense as I did SSOL. I like to dig into the details of X's and O's.

Anyway, I found this scouting report on W Knicks players really interesting:

1. Jimmer Fredette

The moment he stepped foot into the Westchester County Center, he made his presence known. His debut in Westchester was similar to his college days at BYU; Jimmer Fredette shot the ball, and shot well. Fredette wound up scoring 37 points and dished out eight assists, while shooting 12-17 from the field. As expected, he cooled down as opposing defenses started to contain him.

During Wednesday’s game against Delaware, the former BYU product totaled 27 points (12 points in the third quarter) and tallied 10 assists. It’s not to hard to predict Jimmer Fredette will have many games like this in 2016, if he is in a Westchester Knicks uniform. If he continues to show his improvement in the D-Leauge, the talks of Jimmer Fredette playing for the New York Knicks will increase.

If these players can maintain their productivity in 2016, the playoffs are going to be realistic for the Westchester Knicks. Even though the Knicks hold a slim lead over the Maine Red Claws, the Knicks have shown they can go on a run (won their first six games). If the team can produce a similar run in 2016, the Atlantic Division winner may reside in White Plains, New York.

2. Darion Atkins

This may be an odd choice, but it's fairly appropriate. Whether Darion Atkins is in the starting rotation or coming off the bench, he has shown to be effective. Through 17 games this season, the former Virginia product is averaging 9.3 points, 8.1 rebounds per game, and is shooting forty-seven percent from the field. When he comes off the bench, his play sparkens Westchester’s second unit.

Atkins can produce on offense (47% field goal percentage), and can be effective on defense (1.8 blocks per game). When their post players get into foul trouble, the Knicks forward can come in and be an efficient post player. In the past three games, he has posted a double-double.

3. Travis Trice

Just like Jordan Bachynski is known as "BLOCKchynski", Travis Trice should be known as "Mid-range Sniper." Trice can make the mid-range shot look different in today’s game when players are stretching out and shooting more threes.

"Its a lost art," Travis Trice said in an interview with David Resnick during halftime against the Delaware 87ers. "Now-a-days everybody is either trying to go all the way to the rim and dunk it or shoot a three and a lot of teams give you that mid-range, so thats something my dad really instilled in me when I was young was just to get to the mid-range and pull up."

While the former Michigan State product is averaging 13.1 points per game through 17 games (16 starts), he is not an efficient shooter from downtown (25% three-point shooter this season). If Travis Trice can establish a long range game to his offensive skills, the Trice-Fredette backcourt combo would do wonders.

4. Jordan Bachynski

Jordan Bachynski is known for his defensive presence, as he is averaging 2.9 blocks per game, but he is starting to develop an offensive game. In three of the past five games, the Canadian native has scored 22 or more points per game. In a back-to-back against the Maine Red Claws, he posted 31 points, along with shooting 14-14 from the field. The next game, he scored 22 points. Four nights later, Bachynski’s offensive came through again, as he tallied 25 points.

"I spent all summer working on my game," Bachynski said in an interview with David Resnick during halftime against the Erie BayHawks. "One of the big digs on me coming out of Arizona State was I was really good on defense, but my offense was a little bit lacking and I worked really hard this past year and offense to change that."

The former Arizona State product is going to a hook shot more often, which is helping his offensive game. If Jordan Bachynski can be the defensive anchor of this team, along with adding in an offensive game, opposing defenses may need to prepare for the 7’2″ center in a different way.

There's more here:
http://www.ridiculousupside.com/2015/12/31/10689902/five-players-who-could-shine-for-westchester-knicks-in-2016

It's really easy to tell who on here really knows what they're talking about and which ones just try really hard to act like they do and it's pretty obvious that you're one of the ones that knows what you're talking about. The others are really just children.

mreinman wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Malcolm wrote:

nixluva wrote:You're speaking from ignorance and don't know what you're talking about!!! If you did know you wouldn't be saying what you are saying. We're not dead last in Fast Breaks because of the Triangle.

In support of Nixluva:

NBA Fast break efficiency rankings as of 12/31:

1 Golden State
2 Sacramento
3 Oklahoma City
4 Washington
5 Cleveland
6 Phoenix
7 Dallas
8 Denver
9 New Orleans
10 Miami
11 Chicago
12 Houston
13 Minnesota
14 Milwaukee
15 Indiana
16 LA Clippers
17 Portland
18 LA Lakers
19 Charlotte
20 Orlando
21 Boston
22 Detroit
23 Atlanta
24 Philadelphia
25 Memphis
26 New York
27 Toronto
28 Brooklyn
29 San Antonio
30 Utah

Notice, please, who is #29 . . .

Nix can be messianic at times, but in this case he's right. We have Calderon running the point, until Jose making layups isn't a newsworthy event, we wont be running many teams into the ground. That is unless Grant takes a big leap forward, or we get help.

I don't think that he is right. We set so few picks when it is obvious that the picks are the toughest plays to defend.

Seems like we have at least 3 players inside the arc most of the time. Hard to penetrate with such clutter.

We're talking about a Fast Break, going coast to coast, what you're talking about is half court bball. I wasnt thrilled about Phil mandating the Triangle, would have preferred something with less of a learning curve. What would have been the better move IMO is to wait until the Knicks are very close to assembling a serious contender, then start putting the triangle in gradually. We are 2-3 years off from there.

mreinman wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:
For the most part the league as a whole only use part or principles but dont run it exclusively. The triangle is an oudated offense, any coach will tell you that. Those same coaches know that they also dont have time to instill it especially considering it goes against what players do in this day and winning is expected. Now way Fisher would have been given this amount of rope if his mentor wasnt a triangle promoter.

I know you're gonna say it doesnt prevent guys from driving to the goal with the ball....yes it actually does. While the teams talent has improved, the style of play is still behind the NBA scene. You cant keep blaming the players, it is the offense. The triangle doesnt promote a fast break, drawing fouls at the line or drives into the paint. It focuses on mid range action. Doesnt mean those things cant happen within the offense, but the triangle itself does not promote such things.

An offense needs to suit your players, plain and simple. There's a reason why a player like Calderon was picked and not a player like Rondo for instance. Rondo calls his number, runs a play based on what he sees. Calderon merely makes a safe ball movement pass. The triangle does not allow such play for a Rondo.. You have to break it to do it. Kobe Jordan and others have done so, but top players of the game can be effective just by handing them the ball.

Some actually believe a prime Jordan or Kobe wouldnt have won anything without the triangle.....utterly ridiculous.

You don't really understand the Triangle and it's clear from your comments that you don't.

Did you know that there is an entire aspect of the Triangle addressing Transition? So this notion that it limits fast breaks is completely wrong. Did you know that there is PnR action in the Triangle even if they don't make it the center of the offense? Did you know that there is a 4 out option in the offense? There are so many aspects that people don't realize but just make assumptions about the offense. There are dribble weaves and all kinds of actions leading to drives to the basket and not just mid range stuff. They don't really want players standing around and the ball stopping. The better they get at this the better the offense will work. The more they learn this offense as a group the faster they'll be and it will be harder to defend. I'm speaking from actual knowledge of the offense and not just out of my ass.

The thing is that it takes time to learn all of these things and in the heat of the action a young player can get mental paralysis which makes it seem like there are no options when there are. The longer our players play in this system the better they will get and that's the reason you stick with it. It's nonsense to talk about it being an outdated system. IT'S BASKETBALL!

Maybe you dont understand the triangle. Pick and rolls are usually a part of any offense, so why do we run the least of any team? Fast breaks should be a major part of any teams offense. We're dead last in that as well, as well as free throws attempted. The Knicks play a stupid brand of basketball, when they play smarter basically ditching the trinagle, they look better and play better.

We have calderon as our starting point guard, the guy you personally was slobbing on when he first got here that does nothing a real pg should in todays NBA. He fits the triangle perfectly, and thats why he's here.

I really think no matter what we run you'll be singing from the rooftops trying to support it. Fine, do you. But the Knicks have an very outdated system, and not only will they not make the playoffs running it, they wont prove Phil is right that this system works.

You're speaking from ignorance and don't know what you're talking about!!! If you did know you wouldn't be saying what you are saying. We're not dead last in Fast Breaks because of the Triangle. The Knicks don't ditch the Triangle. The thing you see when they are playing well is that they are actually executing the offense properly.

Just cuz they score in other ways besides the Side Triangle doesn't mean that they "ditched" the Triangle. You just don't realize that there's more to the offense than the Side Triangle. As i've said OVER AND OVER, the Triple Post Offense is more than the Side Triangle!!! If people would stop focusing on only the Side Triangle and learn more about the offense they'd know this.

THE KNICKS DO NOT DITCH THE TRIANGLE! I can prove to you that they are very much still running the offense. The problem is that you and many others think that the Side Triangle is the total offense when it's not. You don't know all the other sets and actions and so when they do them you don't recognize that it's still part of the SYSTEM as a whole. They aren't just freelancing all the time when they aren't in Side Triangle.

are offense is not a spread offense and we do set the least picks yet you skipped over this in your rebuttal(s)

The ball handler could call for a pick any time he wanted within the offense. Which is why NIX defends that its not the Triangle system but the players.

We also don't push the tempo like we should on a consistent bases due to Calderon not being that type player a this point in his career and Grant and Galloway not being confident enough to take control of the pace though they show flashes.

I don't believe that its the players. They are trying to run the plays that they are coached to run.

Every PG in the league uses non stops picks to get free and we want ours to just take their guys off the dribble which they can't and it does not help that we have so many players inside the arc and not spread out.

yellowboy90 wrote:^^^^^^^

What are the PnR rates for the Knicks? I know a few weeks ago both Grant and Calderon were running PnR on over 30% of their possessions which was a pretty good rate

I saw an article recently that the knicks set the fewest picks in the league

mreinman wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:^^^^^^^

What are the PnR rates for the Knicks? I know a few weeks ago both Grant and Calderon were running PnR on over 30% of their possessions which was a pretty good rate

I saw an article recently that the knicks set the fewest picks in the league

Unfortunately this has been going on for many many years. As you know, ROLO is one of the few players who consistently sets picks, good ones.