fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:What is this BULL ISH about the modern NBA??? Phil was just coaching LA in 2011 playoffs and took the Knicks job in 2014. The league hasn't changed that much in the 2012, 2013 and 2014 seasons Phil was out of BBall. People act like LeBron, KD, Curry, Harden, Westbrook etc, weren't around when Phil was winning games in the NBA running the Triangle. Phil was in THIS ERA! Space and Pace Small Ball was around when Phil was coaching.

In 2011 you had maybe 2 or 3 players in your starting line up that could knock down a 3 consistently, now a days you have 4 or 5. If your not a stretch 4, you probably will be on the bench (see KOQ).

The NBA games are won by the 3 point line, fast break points, and FT's, obviously defense and rebounds also matter, but not nearly as much.

You can't defend fast breaks consistently, and you can't rebound wide open shots that go in more than not.

The half court game is so lame, because the Center position is weak, post ups are as rare as a unicorn, and mid range shots don't win games.

In just about all of our wins, it was the 3 ball that carried us, and our defense in defending the 3. The game has change a lot in 4 yrs, and everytime i listen to a commentator, they remind me of the dramatic increase in 3 point fg attempts.

4 yrs ago teams would combine to shoot 20 to 25 3's per game. Last night the GSW and Pacers commbine to shoot 52 3's

go look up the Spurs record (THIS YEAR), how many 3s they take, the pace they play and get back to me.

cherry picking.

Parker and Duncan just can't shoot 3's but their 3 point shooters shoot lots of them. If a guy can't shoot it you he just can't.

Shot charts show what the correct shots for each player are.

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:What is this BULL ISH about the modern NBA??? Phil was just coaching LA in 2011 playoffs and took the Knicks job in 2014. The league hasn't changed that much in the 2012, 2013 and 2014 seasons Phil was out of BBall. People act like LeBron, KD, Curry, Harden, Westbrook etc, weren't around when Phil was winning games in the NBA running the Triangle. Phil was in THIS ERA! Space and Pace Small Ball was around when Phil was coaching.

In 2011 you had maybe 2 or 3 players in your starting line up that could knock down a 3 consistently, now a days you have 4 or 5. If your not a stretch 4, you probably will be on the bench (see KOQ).

The NBA games are won by the 3 point line, fast break points, and FT's, obviously defense and rebounds also matter, but not nearly as much.

You can't defend fast breaks consistently, and you can't rebound wide open shots that go in more than not.

The half court game is so lame, because the Center position is weak, post ups are as rare as a unicorn, and mid range shots don't win games.

In just about all of our wins, it was the 3 ball that carried us, and our defense in defending the 3. The game has change a lot in 4 yrs, and everytime i listen to a commentator, they remind me of the dramatic increase in 3 point fg attempts.

4 yrs ago teams would combine to shoot 20 to 25 3's per game. Last night the GSW and Pacers commbine to shoot 52 3's

go look up the Spurs record (THIS YEAR), how many 3s they take, the pace they play and get back to me.

cherry picking.

Parker and Duncan just can't shoot 3's but their 3 point shooters shoot lots of them. If a guy can't shoot it you he just can't.

Shot charts show what the correct shots for each player are.

2nd best team in the NBA, compete every year, havent had a lottery pick since Duncan and they play slow and the exact opposite of the style you covet. Its not cherry picking, wart picking maybe, because they are wart on your arguement that the NBA has moved on and this style cant win anymore.

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:What is this BULL ISH about the modern NBA??? Phil was just coaching LA in 2011 playoffs and took the Knicks job in 2014. The league hasn't changed that much in the 2012, 2013 and 2014 seasons Phil was out of BBall. People act like LeBron, KD, Curry, Harden, Westbrook etc, weren't around when Phil was winning games in the NBA running the Triangle. Phil was in THIS ERA! Space and Pace Small Ball was around when Phil was coaching.

In 2011 you had maybe 2 or 3 players in your starting line up that could knock down a 3 consistently, now a days you have 4 or 5. If your not a stretch 4, you probably will be on the bench (see KOQ).

The NBA games are won by the 3 point line, fast break points, and FT's, obviously defense and rebounds also matter, but not nearly as much.

You can't defend fast breaks consistently, and you can't rebound wide open shots that go in more than not.

The half court game is so lame, because the Center position is weak, post ups are as rare as a unicorn, and mid range shots don't win games.

In just about all of our wins, it was the 3 ball that carried us, and our defense in defending the 3. The game has change a lot in 4 yrs, and everytime i listen to a commentator, they remind me of the dramatic increase in 3 point fg attempts.

4 yrs ago teams would combine to shoot 20 to 25 3's per game. Last night the GSW and Pacers commbine to shoot 52 3's

go look up the Spurs record (THIS YEAR), how many 3s they take, the pace they play and get back to me.

cherry picking.

Parker and Duncan just can't shoot 3's but their 3 point shooters shoot lots of them. If a guy can't shoot it you he just can't.

Shot charts show what the correct shots for each player are.

Not cherry picking, clear evidence that a slow system is just as effective as anything else out there. They are an elite team that plays slow and leads the league in long 2s. Its not cherry picking at all. The complaint is that our system is outdated and ineffective because of the new NBA. That is YOUR agenda and what you hammer home daily. They are an example that a good shot is still a good shot, no matter what the analytic worshipers believe. It still works. They arent the only team, just the best.

2nd best team in the NBA, compete every year, havent had a lottery pick since Duncan and they play slow and the exact opposite of the style you covet. Its not cherry picking, wart picking maybe, because they are wart on your arguement that the NBA has moved on and this style cant win anymore.

Its not my argument, its a fact. Nobody disputes that the NBA has moved on. You may not like it so you choose to ignore it or argue against it even though its here.

I am not arguing if the NBA has moved on, I am arguing that we should not get left behind with this system if it continues to trend in this direction.

As far as if a team can win shooting long 2's? Sure they can if they shoot them at a level that is way above normal. KP shoots better from 22 feet than he does from 5 feet so that proves that the 22 footer is a better shot? Course not.

mreinman wrote:

bigbasketballs wrote:Just for kicks:

POP HATES 3S: 'I'LL NEVER EMBRACE IT'

Gregg Popovich let his opinion be known: "I don't think it's basketball. I think it's kind of like a circus sort of thing. Why don't we have a 5-point shot? A 7-point shot? You know, where does it stop, that sort of thing. ... To a certain degree, you better embrace it or you're going to lose."

Of course, depending on your POV, you could go either way with this.

respect that opinion. It may not be basketball as we know it and that may be hard to stomach but if you are gonna compete then you better be doing it.

I would say that watching the warriors sure beats watching a big fat 300 pounder backing the ball in for 20 seconds.

As someone who believes in chemistry, who believes in time and place, I gotta be careful to not make the Warriors the face of a changing game. They are the ridiculously idealized version of it, and it goes beyond embracing the philosophy and Curry's skill set.

I've never seen a team feed off runs and confidence like this one does. They make a defensive stop that convert that into a 3-pointer and then a 12 point run like no team that ever was.

Whatever is happening there is special and may never happen again.

When we evaluate the three ball, we can't overweight them.

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:What is this BULL ISH about the modern NBA??? Phil was just coaching LA in 2011 playoffs and took the Knicks job in 2014. The league hasn't changed that much in the 2012, 2013 and 2014 seasons Phil was out of BBall. People act like LeBron, KD, Curry, Harden, Westbrook etc, weren't around when Phil was winning games in the NBA running the Triangle. Phil was in THIS ERA! Space and Pace Small Ball was around when Phil was coaching.

In 2011 you had maybe 2 or 3 players in your starting line up that could knock down a 3 consistently, now a days you have 4 or 5. If your not a stretch 4, you probably will be on the bench (see KOQ).

The NBA games are won by the 3 point line, fast break points, and FT's, obviously defense and rebounds also matter, but not nearly as much.

You can't defend fast breaks consistently, and you can't rebound wide open shots that go in more than not.

The half court game is so lame, because the Center position is weak, post ups are as rare as a unicorn, and mid range shots don't win games.

In just about all of our wins, it was the 3 ball that carried us, and our defense in defending the 3. The game has change a lot in 4 yrs, and everytime i listen to a commentator, they remind me of the dramatic increase in 3 point fg attempts.

4 yrs ago teams would combine to shoot 20 to 25 3's per game. Last night the GSW and Pacers commbine to shoot 52 3's

I think people are overstating the difference in offensive efficiency from 5 years ago to now. The Warriors are making people think offense has gotten so much more efficient. Clearly teams are taking more 3's over the last 5 years. There seems to be a few teams each year that really jack up a significantly higher number of 3's in comparison with everyone else. It's a bit inconclusive as to just how much the league as a whole is changing out side of the usual top 3pt attempt teams.

3pt Attempts Per Game
         #1 Team - #10 Team - #20 Team - Diff from 1-10 from 1-20
2008-09  27.9      19.8       17.2       +8.1           +10.7
2009-10  27.3      19.0       16.9       +8.3           +10.4
2010-11  25.6      19.1       16.3       +6.5           +9.3
2011-12  27.0      20.2       16.3       +6.8           +10.7
2012-13  28.9      20.5       18.2       +8.4           +10.7
2013-14  26.6      23.4       20.0       +3.2           +6.6
2014-15  32.7      25.0       19.9       +7.7           +12.8
2015-16  31.0      26.2       22.5       +4.8           +8.5

One thing to note is that the number of 3pt attempts didn't always correlate to great offense or winning. Obviously it's much more complicated than just taking more 3's. It seems to me that it's always been about the make up of a team's roster and not just the approach to the offense. Of course you can force things but that may not really be beneficial to a team's success. The Knicks DEFINITELY have to improve offensively but it has nothing to do with running the Triangle. They are sucking on their own. Just for reference i'm showing all the seasons between Phil's last title team and now in terms of Offensive Efficiency.

The weird thing is that league efficiency is down this year relative to last year. Only the Warriors are functioning at a Historically high level of efficiency. The last time we saw a team as efficient as the Warriors are this year was back when Phil won his last Title, 2009-10 and it was the Phoenix Suns. Scroll down to the 2009 season to see what Phil and his Triangle was facing when they won that last Title. That year the Lakers were the #10 team Offensively.

2015-16 Offensive Efficiency
Season:  Date:  
Rank	Team	        2015	Last 3	Last 1	Home	Away	2014
1	Golden State	1.125	1.165	1.194	1.100	1.144	1.075
2	Okla City	1.061	1.074	1.293	1.038	1.092	1.040
3	Cleveland	1.038	1.008	1.122	1.081	0.992	1.066
4	San Antonio	1.037	1.170	1.323	1.041	1.033	1.052
5	Toronto	        1.034	1.110	1.111	1.079	1.002	1.066
6	Indiana	        1.028	1.120	1.121	1.023	1.031	1.002
7	Charlotte	1.026	1.001	1.014	1.046	0.996	0.969
8	Atlanta	        1.025	1.008	1.083	1.037	1.010	1.046
9	LA Clippers	1.025	0.999	1.046	1.015	1.043	1.082
10	Portland	1.021	1.035	1.069	1.066	0.986	1.045
11	Phoenix	        1.020	0.989	0.973	1.041	1.002	1.019
12	Sacramento	1.019	1.064	1.195	1.022	1.015	1.016
13	Utah	        1.014	1.061	1.111	0.998	1.026	1.015
14	Boston	        1.012	1.086	1.116	0.988	1.036	1.011
15	Dallas	        1.011	1.083	1.085	1.012	1.011	1.059
22	New York	0.988	1.002	1.012	0.973	1.006	0.964
Season:  Date:  
Rank	Team	        2014	Last 3	Last 1	Home	Away	2013
1	LA Clippers	1.082	0.989	0.937	1.078	1.087	1.084
2	Golden State	1.075	1.052	1.083	1.096	1.053	1.043
3	Cleveland	1.067	0.950	0.947	1.087	1.049	1.005
4	Toronto	        1.066	0.990	0.971	1.061	1.070	1.048
5	Dallas	        1.059	1.086	0.847	1.082	1.037	1.077
6	San Antonio	1.052	1.072	1.157	1.088	1.018	1.081
7	Atlanta	        1.046	0.967	0.913	1.062	1.030	1.024
8	New Orleans	1.046	1.044	1.079	1.067	1.024	1.036
9	Portland	1.045	1.045	0.938	1.066	1.024	1.071
10	Okla City	1.040	1.135	1.331	1.067	1.013	1.063
11	Chicago	        1.033	0.939	0.863	1.038	1.028	0.989
12	Houston	        1.031	0.939	0.859	1.026	1.037	1.073
13	Memphis	        1.021	0.914	1.006	1.030	1.010	1.024
14	Detroit	        1.019	1.143	1.151	1.049	0.989	1.023
15	Phoenix	        1.019	0.954	1.057	1.028	1.011	1.059
Season:  Date:  
Rank	Team	        2013	Last 3	Last 1	Home	Away	2012
1	LA Clippers	1.084	1.012	0.994	1.105	1.061	1.066
2	Miami	        1.081	1.043	1.004	1.106	1.055	1.081
3	San Antonio	1.081	1.186	1.249	1.100	1.061	1.051
4	Dallas	        1.077	1.071	0.986	1.101	1.053	1.027
5	Houston	        1.073	1.107	1.058	1.086	1.060	1.057
6	Portland	1.071	0.951	0.838	1.083	1.060	1.023
7	Okla City	1.063	1.016	0.978	1.083	1.042	1.076
8	Phoenix	        1.059	1.011	1.016	1.088	1.029	0.978
9	Minnesota	1.053	1.068	1.068	1.059	1.047	0.995
10	Toronto	        1.048	1.089	1.178	1.062	1.033	1.021
11	New York	1.046	1.058	0.967	1.052	1.041	1.062
12	Golden State	1.043	1.087	1.151	1.054	1.033	1.030
13	New Orleans	1.036	1.084	1.142	1.057	1.016	1.022
14	Brooklyn	1.036	1.142	1.107	1.060	1.014	1.044
15	Memphis	        1.024	1.010	1.104	1.036	1.012	1.010
Season:  Date:  
Rank	Team	        2012	Last 3	Last 1	Home	Away	2011
1	Miami	        1.082	1.080	1.055	1.108	1.055	1.036
2	Okla City	1.076	0.909	0.876	1.105	1.046	1.062
3	LA Clippers	1.066	1.005	1.084	1.096	1.036	1.035
4	New York	1.062	0.991	1.129	1.091	1.033	1.001
5	Denver	        1.061	1.002	0.920	1.085	1.038	1.053
6	Houston	        1.057	1.071	1.020	1.075	1.039	1.018
7	San Antonio	1.052	1.049	1.024	1.073	1.031	1.074
8	Brooklyn	1.044	1.109	1.096	1.058	1.029	0.993
9	LA Lakers	1.037	0.932	0.865	1.046	1.028	1.022
10	Utah	        1.030	1.007	0.810	1.063	0.998	1.023
11	Golden State	1.030	0.937	0.873	1.030	1.030	1.019
12	Dallas	        1.027	1.105	1.073	1.052	1.001	1.000
13	Sacramento	1.024	0.998	1.089	1.070	0.978	1.002
14	Portland	1.023	0.941	0.908	1.037	1.010	1.021
15	New Orleans	1.022	0.983	0.943	1.023	1.021	0.974
Season:  Date:  
Rank	Team	        2011	Last 3	Last 1	Home	Away	2010
1	San Antonio	1.074	1.053	1.035	1.096	1.051	1.077
2	Okla City	1.062	1.013	1.062	1.092	1.032	1.070
3	Denver	        1.053	1.060	0.974	1.046	1.059	1.082
4	LA Clippers	1.035	0.987	1.065	1.045	1.026	1.018
5	Miami	        1.034	1.071	1.128	1.066	1.002	1.071
6	Phoenix	        1.027	0.997	1.039	1.059	0.996	1.061
7	Chicago	        1.026	0.869	0.899	1.034	1.018	1.042
8	Utah	        1.023	0.890	0.846	1.038	1.008	1.044
9	LA Lakers	1.022	1.034	0.917	1.041	1.004	1.069
10	Indiana	        1.021	0.957	1.011	1.038	1.004	1.011
11	Portland	1.021	0.952	0.980	1.057	0.983	1.049
12	Golden State	1.019	0.971	1.016	1.029	1.009	1.047
13	Houston	        1.018	0.975	0.909	1.038	0.997	1.076
14	Milwaukee	1.017	0.843	0.732	1.037	0.997	0.985
15	Orlando	        1.009	0.931	0.963	1.025	0.994	1.042
Season:  Date:  
Rank	Team	        2010	Last 3	Last 1	Home	Away	2009
1	Denver	        1.082	0.983	0.961	1.117	1.047	1.085
2	San Antonio	1.077	1.004	1.006	1.101	1.054	1.066
3	Houston	        1.076	1.037	1.168	1.074	1.077	1.046
4	Miami	        1.072	1.040	1.143	1.086	1.057	1.033
5	Dallas	        1.070	1.078	1.243	1.091	1.048	1.062
6	Okla City	1.070	0.981	1.038	1.085	1.055	1.050
7	LA Lakers	1.069	0.950	0.899	1.076	1.062	1.064
8	New York	1.067	0.946	0.874	1.087	1.047	1.049
9	Phoenix	        1.061	1.096	1.096	1.064	1.058	1.123
10	Portland	1.049	1.015	1.137	1.073	1.025	1.074
11	Golden State	1.047	1.056	1.117	1.078	1.016	1.051
12	Utah	        1.044	1.090	1.111	1.059	1.029	1.081
13	Detroit	        1.043	1.110	1.059	1.080	1.005	1.026
14	Orlando	        1.042	0.982	0.939	1.042	1.043	1.085
15	Chicago	        1.042	0.912	0.876	1.056	1.026	1.008
Season:  Date:  
Rank	Team	        2009	Last 3	Last 1	Home	Away	2008
1	Phoenix	        1.123	1.164	1.125	1.153	1.093	1.103
2	Orlando	        1.085	1.063	0.946	1.111	1.058	1.058
3	Denver	        1.085	1.087	1.018	1.110	1.058	1.078
4	Toronto	        1.081	1.156	1.322	1.084	1.079	1.040
5	Utah	        1.081	1.096	1.027	1.114	1.047	1.064
6	Cleveland	1.080	0.883	0.851	1.099	1.062	1.091
7	Atlanta	        1.080	1.003	0.972	1.099	1.060	1.055
8	Portland	1.074	1.025	0.974	1.084	1.064	1.098
9	San Antonio	1.066	1.033	1.013	1.102	1.030	1.058
10	LA Lakers	1.064	0.977	0.956	1.076	1.052	1.091
11	Dallas	        1.062	1.007	0.989	1.065	1.058	1.077
12	Golden State	1.051	1.086	1.195	1.075	1.028	1.059
13	Memphis	        1.051	1.029	1.091	1.041	1.062	1.015
14	Okla City	1.050	1.027	1.025	1.069	1.030	0.999
15	New York	1.049	1.141	1.140	1.064	1.034	1.053