Nalod wrote:Mreinmen, I get your points and don't disagree, but its the concentration of it. Seems like you indict his entire career.

Ewing came out with a college degree and in short time established his NBA game to include an offensive skill set not seen in College. The era of big big men it was common and effective to get the ball and pound it down.
Ewing in his prime was worthy of the superstar status and top 50 status. After the best runs in the absence of Jordan, in 1996 the knicks hired Don Nelson at the time ewing was starting to slow down. This did not happen over nite but he was creaky, cranky and a potential free agent. Knicks were a cash cow to MSG and while Don Nelson never won a chip, he has won a ton of games and who knows if allowed could the knicks in that era produced a champ. Ewing was seen as the culprit of the mutiny and the threat of leaving was real. Knicks bowed and thus Ewing was empowered with JVG as the coach. Still good years followed but Ewing was less willing do what Wilt did and be a defensive and rebounding presence while his offense declined. We saw in 1999 what speed ball could have been. If nelson was kept and ewing traded who knows what other moves could have happened.

How it ended was not ewings full career. I saw the whole era. Ewing like most stars thought they were best to handle the ball. There was truth to that but no championship banner to back I up.

KP plays in a different era, has a different skill set and I can't see even as rookies we can begin to parallel.

era definitely plays into it. Players are taught today that selfish is just not ok.

KP's bball iq and off the court iq seems to be very very rare. That is not an indictment of ewing. Ewing also played in an era with Shaq and Hakeem who were much smarter than him. Again, not his fault.

The refusal to pass is still on him no matter how great of a player he was. He just could have been much greater IMHO.

Happy Friday Knickfans!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If Kobe, Ewing, Melo, etc.....were all unselfish players, they will be in the same category as me. Somebody who wish they shot the ball more often, sitting behind a computer screen, talking to mostly non basketball players....but energitic basketball fans.

A team full of unselfish players will win nothing.
A team full of selfish players will also win nothing. BUT....they will draw more ticket sales. Thats for another discussion.

The point is you need balance, and as a PG, you should know this. You always need those guys that have tunnel vision, with the ability to put their head down and score at will. They will always miss the open guys, because their mind is to score. KP is not a selfish player, but he has great balance with his overall IQ. This is also why he may not ever be the scoring leader in the NBA, because thats not how he's wired.

But I really could care less at this point what you call these guys.....I'm just replying because I was very surprised to hear you say you played PG for years. I would've never figured that out with your basketball insight. But at the same time, I understand how you feel. My issue is with selfish players that think they have the skill set to be selfish. Thats my only issue. Kobe, Ewing, Melo.....they all have the green like to look players off and have a mission to score.....others don't have this luxury. Steph Curry wouldn't have won MVP or an NBA championship if he didn't have that killer instinct to score. But he's also a willing passer, so he might be a bad example.

I always appreciated Ewing for his defense.....and his offense was just an extra asset. Kobe can also be a lock down defender. Melo on the other hand, he's just a chucker.....But when he's hot, he can carry the entire team. These guys get a pass in my book......Especially Ewing and Kobe for their defense (in their prime years)

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

blkexec wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Nalod wrote:

mreinman wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Too soon? Bonn, mreinman, any advanced stats worth sharing?

20 games into his career and KP6 is a smarter b-ball player than Patrick Ewing at retirement.

Anyone disagreeing with this statement didn't watch Pat play enough.

I would absolutely agree with that.

how so?

KP's Bball IQ is already through the moon while Ewings was always questionable at best.

Wow.....really? Be aware of some back lash for that statement! You know when somebody has high IQ, when they can't use their knees anymore, and still play at an All Star level......Ewing lost his knees early into his extremely long NBA career. His skill set was limited, not his IQ. KP has more tools in his skill set, and he doesn't even have facial hair yet.

don't care about backlash. Ewing was a freak of nature in many ways. He was also a black hole which was ugly. Was this an IQ issue or just selfish and a bit of narcissism?

KP seems to see the floor like a guard. He still has a lot to learn about the feel but he will catch on really fast.

black hole who carried his team to 10 straight years of making it to at least the 2nd round. 10 straight years. Want to call him disgusting as well?

yes. a very good non disgusting black hole.

you have a problem with me finding Kobe's play disgusting?

this year his play is just that. Prior years yes... its a stupid choice of words.

I would love to buy your disgusting black hole of a face a beer. I mean.. its a good face, a really good face.. your a handsome guy. Just in a blackhole disgusting kind of way.

lets do it! As long as you leave mad fishmike at home

and btw, there is nothing that I find more disgusting in sports than selfish play and especially very selfish. I find it disgusting ... sorry thats how I feel. I played PG for years and there is nothing I hate more than selfish play especially when its intentional.

trust me... mad fishmike has never shown his ugly head around these parts!

If you played PG THEN YOU KNOW there are guys who just dont have it in their makeup to play that role. Sometimes its selfish, or a habit that started as selfish or a personality thing. Sometimes it can be helped a little, a lot or not at all. Even when its not at all it doesnt mean that player cant be good and help you win games, and the mental part that gets you there is really the key.

Some of these guys are so individually driven and pushed to get where they are they just arent capable of easing off that throttle. Its part of the makup that got them there in the first place dig? Where's Marv and his ology of the psych

fair enough.

Can't blame Nick Young either then. Maybe its a mental deficiency and therefore not disgusting and we should just pray for him ... lol

its just part of the whole picture. You cant cherry pick the parts you like and crap on the ones you dont. Thats really my point to this. Kobe (who IS a disgusting person) was a great player. A lot of chucking sure (he *did* average 5 assists for his career which is pretty freakin good) but my point is the part of his brain that drove him to be one of the best (if not THE best) wing defenders in the game for a decade is the same brain that hogs the ball and takes 30 shots a game when guys are waiving for a pass cause they are open.

I hear you, I do... its fair criticism, but not always correctable. Like killing Jose for being a bad defender. He tries... watch him he does, but its just not in the toolkit. Just because something is mental doesnt mean its an easy fix or adjustment.

again ... fair post.

I never said that Kobe was not a great great player and perhaps one of the best of all time. I still think that he was overrated especially in the ridiculous michael comps.

Mo speights is on a team where everyone passes and passes often. Mo speights just don't do passing and they still play him. I get it ... not everyone is mentally capable.

I have played with many players who just don't/didn't get it and never will/did. Frustrated the sh1t out of me that they missed so many plays and it was hard for me to just realize that they just don't see it and never will.

Melo turning to the baseline to beat the triple team. It is so hard for me to get this. How can he not see how bad that shot is? I heard in an interview where zach lowe brings data like this to players. I think I will email him about this and about how he seems to stack his assists early.

Lowe asked Rolo if he ever played with a player that demanded the ball so much and Rolo quickly answered no ... PRICELESS

mreinman wrote:

Nalod wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Nalod wrote:Mreinmen, I get your points and don't disagree, but its the concentration of it. Seems like you indict his entire career.

Ewing came out with a college degree and in short time established his NBA game to include an offensive skill set not seen in College. The era of big big men it was common and effective to get the ball and pound it down.
Ewing in his prime was worthy of the superstar status and top 50 status. After the best runs in the absence of Jordan, in 1996 the knicks hired Don Nelson at the time ewing was starting to slow down. This did not happen over nite but he was creaky, cranky and a potential free agent. Knicks were a cash cow to MSG and while Don Nelson never won a chip, he has won a ton of games and who knows if allowed could the knicks in that era produced a champ. Ewing was seen as the culprit of the mutiny and the threat of leaving was real. Knicks bowed and thus Ewing was empowered with JVG as the coach. Still good years followed but Ewing was less willing do what Wilt did and be a defensive and rebounding presence while his offense declined. We saw in 1999 what speed ball could have been. If nelson was kept and ewing traded who knows what other moves could have happened.

How it ended was not ewings full career. I saw the whole era. Ewing like most stars thought they were best to handle the ball. There was truth to that but no championship banner to back I up.

KP plays in a different era, has a different skill set and I can't see even as rookies we can begin to parallel.

era definitely plays into it. Players are taught today that selfish is just not ok.

KP's bball iq and off the court iq seems to be very very rare. That is not an indictment of ewing. Ewing also played in an era with Shaq and Hakeem who were much smarter than him. Again, not his fault.

The refusal to pass is still on him no matter how great of a player he was. He just could have been much greater IMHO.

We all can be greater in hindsight!!!!
My beef was not with Ewing but with the lack of patience that did not develop a roster around him but by trading picks for aging vets. We did not have shooters around him to open things up.
Shaq was a great passer, especially in the championship years!!! Get it, he had a great team around him and he was great. Hakeem was a better player and out west had a smoother ride to the playoffs in the window that produced two chips. Ewing was over worked and did not report some of his injuries which is warrior like, but also selfish at the same time. The finger roll was because he played hurt.

how's that?

no lift.....

blkexec wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Nalod wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Nalod wrote:Mreinmen, I get your points and don't disagree, but its the concentration of it. Seems like you indict his entire career.

Ewing came out with a college degree and in short time established his NBA game to include an offensive skill set not seen in College. The era of big big men it was common and effective to get the ball and pound it down.
Ewing in his prime was worthy of the superstar status and top 50 status. After the best runs in the absence of Jordan, in 1996 the knicks hired Don Nelson at the time ewing was starting to slow down. This did not happen over nite but he was creaky, cranky and a potential free agent. Knicks were a cash cow to MSG and while Don Nelson never won a chip, he has won a ton of games and who knows if allowed could the knicks in that era produced a champ. Ewing was seen as the culprit of the mutiny and the threat of leaving was real. Knicks bowed and thus Ewing was empowered with JVG as the coach. Still good years followed but Ewing was less willing do what Wilt did and be a defensive and rebounding presence while his offense declined. We saw in 1999 what speed ball could have been. If nelson was kept and ewing traded who knows what other moves could have happened.

How it ended was not ewings full career. I saw the whole era. Ewing like most stars thought they were best to handle the ball. There was truth to that but no championship banner to back I up.

KP plays in a different era, has a different skill set and I can't see even as rookies we can begin to parallel.

era definitely plays into it. Players are taught today that selfish is just not ok.

KP's bball iq and off the court iq seems to be very very rare. That is not an indictment of ewing. Ewing also played in an era with Shaq and Hakeem who were much smarter than him. Again, not his fault.

The refusal to pass is still on him no matter how great of a player he was. He just could have been much greater IMHO.

We all can be greater in hindsight!!!!
My beef was not with Ewing but with the lack of patience that did not develop a roster around him but by trading picks for aging vets. We did not have shooters around him to open things up.
Shaq was a great passer, especially in the championship years!!! Get it, he had a great team around him and he was great. Hakeem was a better player and out west had a smoother ride to the playoffs in the window that produced two chips. Ewing was over worked and did not report some of his injuries which is warrior like, but also selfish at the same time. The finger roll was because he played hurt.

how's that?

no lift.....

really? I don't know if I buy that. The guy could have dunk without even lifting. Was he really so hurt that playoffs?

WaltLongmire wrote:One issue we always throw around when discussing the prominence of PGs today is how the rules have changed over the years.

Ewing played during a much more physical era. Who knows how KP would have fit in back then, especially early in his career, and who knows how a guy like Ewing plays today if he had been a one and done, especially if coaches had groomed him to be more of a jump shooter during his early development as a player.

Kind of like comparing QBs and receivers now, with guys who played 20 years ago, or using stats from the PED era in baseball to compare those players with guys from the 70's and 80's.

Hard to use stats to compare players from two eras unless there have been no changes in the game over the years, and even then you have to look at advances in diet, strength training, and the prevalent style of play during a particular era in a sport.

In the end you might have to look at how they stacked up with their contemporaries during their careers, and not compare them directly with each other, especially if there have been substantial changes in rules and styles of play.

One man's opinion.

you can't compare that holistically but things like IQ, shooting touch, speed, etc ... can be compared.

The physicality of the game was crazy.

It's amazing that people (basketball minds) thought KP would have trouble because of his weight. In an era where breathing to hard on someone is damn near a flagrant foul.

knicks1248 wrote:I don't know how you can compare the 2, the era in which they played in are night and day. when Ewing played (in his prime) there may have been 2 big man that was able to knock down a 3, and they took maybe 1 or 2 per game.

The physicality of the game was crazy.

It's amazing that people (basketball minds) thought KP would have trouble because of his weight. In an era where breathing to hard on someone is damn near a flagrant foul.

btw, lets also remember how much faster the game is today and how slow bigs are a lot less useful.

mreinman wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I don't know how you can compare the 2, the era in which they played in are night and day. when Ewing played (in his prime) there may have been 2 big man that was able to knock down a 3, and they took maybe 1 or 2 per game.

The physicality of the game was crazy.

It's amazing that people (basketball minds) thought KP would have trouble because of his weight. In an era where breathing to hard on someone is damn near a flagrant foul.

btw, lets also remember how much faster the game is today and how slow bigs are a lot less useful.

Faster in part because of the rule changes around defense, not allowing anywhere near the same level of physicality, hand-checking, etc. In the 80s and 90s, today's fast-playing players would have simply been knocked on their asses repeatedly until they slowed down.

Nobody is higher on Porzingis than me, and he has more overall tools than Ewing did at this point in his career, but this thread is ridiculous at this point in time for a variety of reasons.

mreinman wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I don't know how you can compare the 2, the era in which they played in are night and day. when Ewing played (in his prime) there may have been 2 big man that was able to knock down a 3, and they took maybe 1 or 2 per game.

The physicality of the game was crazy.

It's amazing that people (basketball minds) thought KP would have trouble because of his weight. In an era where breathing to hard on someone is damn near a flagrant foul.

btw, lets also remember how much faster the game is today and how slow bigs are a lot less useful.

Yeah...those Magic run Laker teams were pretty plodding.

Much slower than the Cavs/Mavs/SA/Celtic/Heat teams who have won titles over the past 15 years.