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Zach Lowe at ESPN tackles the Knicks/Porzingis
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Knixkik
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12/1/2015  4:34 PM
fishmike wrote:
Rookie wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Rookie wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Rookie wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Rookie wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:This is what caught my attention:

• Houston Rockets: Now we're talking. An underachieving contender desperate to win before Dwight Howard can bolt. The four-man package of Ty Lawson (sunk cost on an expiring deal), Patrick Beverley (a perfect triangle point guard!), Terrence Jones, and Trevor Ariza matches the combined salaries of Melo and Jose Calderon almost exactly -- a key bit of math synergy, since Houston is hard-capped. Toss in a Rockets pick, and you have the kind of mega-deal that makes both sides a little anxious.

Make it happen!

Between Melo's salary and No Trade Clause, he is a more likely candidate for the Amnesty provision then as a trade chip. This would also coincide with the 'patience' approach. If we spend our entire cap in 2016 improving the roster, we could then free up cap space again in 2017 by amnestying Melo. The 2017 FA class also looks a little deeper and we could build around KP, until then it is still Melo's team and personal stats will feed Melo's ball hogging ego.

amnesty Melo... I have really heard it all here.

33 y.o. Melo with 2 years left on his contract, or 1 year till he can opt out. It's going to be hard to trade aging max salary Melo with the looming opt out. What do you really get back, and would he waive his no trade clause to go to a competitive team that guts it's roster to get him...basically another rebuild. If you want to build around KP, you have to amnesty Melo.

No... you dont

So you are saying that we will be a contender in the Melo era? (trying to have a conversation, not an argument here)

were we a contender 3 years ago when we won 54? Define contender.

a) he's not waiving his no trade
b) he loves the guys on this team, especially KP and those two games compliment each other

Not much else matters

I define contender as making it to the ECF.

a) after 2 more seasons of not sniffing the ECF, Melo could want the freedom to sign with the team of his choice. He could force a trade, but with his salary that would gut the other team. He could negotiate a buy out, but that would still count against the cap. We could agree to amnesty him (in 2017) giving him his freedom to sign anywhere. We could then use our cap space to sign complimentary players or another star FA. It's just conversation

he seems to be enjoying the rebuilding process... I think simply this is where he wants to be.

What is more important, being a fixture on and associated as a star on a team that doesn't win a title, or chasing a ring on a title team? I think Dominique Wilkins is beloved in atlanta and forgotten in the places he went late in his career. Malone failed to get his ring in LA, and people quickly forgot he played there. Even if he had won in LA, he would have just been a forgotten role player on that team. I think if Melo stays and is part of a resurgence, even if it doesn't result in a title before he retires, he will be long remembered as an all-time Knick great, despite the opinions of a few who dislike him. I think he realizes that.
AUTOADVERT
crzymdups
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12/1/2015  4:40 PM
mreinman wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
fishmike wrote:great read. Rarely does a sports writer actually articulate what is happening on the court and why its happening.

Really good stuff.

A couple tidbits... kind of sheds some light on Melo's shock at the draft when Mill's said he was high on the Knicks wish list.

I like the path we are taking now. Im still a big believer in Grant as a future piece. I like the culture we have and I think we will churn out some good players via old school development. My god could you imagine if we landed Jordan to pair up front with KP? Sigh...

Would've been incredible.

I wonder if Jordan would take that decision back if he could. I've already seen CP3 barking at him on the floor this year.

makes you think that we should have kept tyson (if we knew)

I hated the Tyson trade when it happened. Took me a while to come back around to Phil after that one. But apparently Melo and Tyson had bad blood - I think trading Tyson right before Free Agency as they did might've been a move Phil made to keep Melo around.

¿ △ ?
crzymdups
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12/1/2015  4:44 PM
Amnesty Melo is one of the dumbest things I've heard on this board. A) We can't do it because of when he was signed. B) Did the Spurs amnesty David Robinson because they lucked into Duncan in the draft? Did they force out Robinson? No. They built around an aging star and a budding star to great success. Did the Spurs let Duncan go when they got Kawhi Leonard in the draft? No, because Duncan makes Kawhi's life easier in a lot of ways.

Melo and KP complement each other very well on the floor as the article says. Melo absolutely makes KP's life easier, as does Rolo. You take away Melo, defenses will load up on KP. The idea that it has to be one or the other of them is just childish.

¿ △ ?
Knixkik
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12/1/2015  4:49 PM
crzymdups wrote:Amnesty Melo is one of the dumbest things I've heard on this board. A) We can't do it because of when he was signed. B) Did the Spurs amnesty David Robinson because they lucked into Duncan in the draft? Did they force out Robinson? No. They built around an aging star and a budding star to great success. Did the Spurs let Duncan go when they got Kawhi Leonard in the draft? No, because Duncan makes Kawhi's life easier in a lot of ways.

Melo and KP complement each other very well on the floor as the article says. Melo absolutely makes KP's life easier, as does Rolo. You take away Melo, defenses will load up on KP. The idea that it has to be one or the other of them is just childish.


Exactly right. If they work well together, which they do, why mess it up? The fact that they are on different timelines doesn't matter. They are both helping us win.
nixluva
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12/1/2015  5:09 PM
The Knicks obviously need a 2 style system, which is what they were actually doing at the start of the season. When you have Melo, RoLo and KP out there with Jose then you run Triangle. It's the best option for playing with half court players like Melo, RoLo and Jose. People that are calling for a change in offense don't realize how well suited the players we start are for the Triangle. That's how you can play with a big who doesn't have range like RoLo. He's been struggling a bit but you don't give up on it just because of that. You keep working with him in this style and he'll improve enough to make it worthwhile.

The 2nd group doesn't have to stick to the Triangle. They can use it when necessary but really they should be playing more uptempo and PnR. You can ALWAYS call for the Triangle to be set up. It's so easy to do. You don't have to force the Triangle early in the shot clock. Players have to realize that they have the freedom to just play and look for quick offense FIRST and then settle into the Triangle if they have to. The bench players have done this but not enough. They still have yet to get the balance right.

Clearly the team needs upgrades to the roster but even before that the players we have need to maximize their output. They aren't doing that yet. The last game was a good start but they need to do that consistently. Fish should switch to closing games with Jerian even tho he lacks experience. Jerian would change the speed of the team and give them the ability to penetrate the defense. IMO this is something they've got to try.

callmened
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12/1/2015  5:36 PM
im a BIG TIME Zach Lowe fan. he usually spends his time laughing at the knicks so for him to write something positive means we might actually be good.
a couple of thoughts:
- triangle offense is archic and not using KP properly
- he and Lopez would compliment each other like dirk and tyson did if they simply ran PNRs with KP spotting up and Lopez diving on PNRs
- he acted like bill simmons for a second by listing all of these trades with melo that will NEVER happen
- having Melo at age 31 and KP at 20 is a HUGE gap
- lastly he also mentioned B level free agents at PG like BJennings (i still have a bad feeling hes coming here) lol
Knicks should be improved: win about 40 games and maybe sneak into the playoffs. Melo, Rose and even Noah will have some nice moments however this team should be about PORZINGUS. the sooner they make him the primary player, the better
Knixkik
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12/1/2015  5:43 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/1/2015  5:44 PM
callmened wrote:im a BIG TIME Zach Lowe fan. he usually spends his time laughing at the knicks so for him to write something positive means we might actually be good.
a couple of thoughts:
- triangle offense is archic and not using KP properly
- he and Lopez would compliment each other like dirk and tyson did if they simply ran PNRs with KP spotting up and Lopez diving on PNRs
- he acted like bill simmons for a second by listing all of these trades with melo that will NEVER happen
- having Melo at age 31 and KP at 20 is a HUGE gap
- lastly he also mentioned B level free agents at PG like BJennings (i still have a bad feeling hes coming here) lol

There are some very good B level free agents who would fit what we are trying to do. Conley is an option (in between A level and B level i guess), Batum, and Fournier (RFA) really stand out. Vasquez is a solid stop-gap PG as well.

CrushAlot
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12/1/2015  5:46 PM
Fantastic article. Nice to read positive stuff about the Knicks from Lowe.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
callmened
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12/1/2015  6:03 PM
Knixkik wrote:
callmened wrote:im a BIG TIME Zach Lowe fan. he usually spends his time laughing at the knicks so for him to write something positive means we might actually be good.
a couple of thoughts:
- triangle offense is archic and not using KP properly
- he and Lopez would compliment each other like dirk and tyson did if they simply ran PNRs with KP spotting up and Lopez diving on PNRs
- he acted like bill simmons for a second by listing all of these trades with melo that will NEVER happen
- having Melo at age 31 and KP at 20 is a HUGE gap
- lastly he also mentioned B level free agents at PG like BJennings (i still have a bad feeling hes coming here) lol

There are some very good B level free agents who would fit what we are trying to do. Conley is an option (in between A level and B level i guess), Batum, and Fournier (RFA) really stand out. Vasquez is a solid stop-gap PG as well.

i agree. I think conley is an A-level in my opnion and will most likely stay in Memphis. Batum and Fournier are underrated but we have Affalo at the SG position anyways. Vazquez cant guard a parked car. lol. im hoping for teague...lol. we shall see

Knicks should be improved: win about 40 games and maybe sneak into the playoffs. Melo, Rose and even Noah will have some nice moments however this team should be about PORZINGUS. the sooner they make him the primary player, the better
Malcolm
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12/1/2015  6:51 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/1/2015  6:52 PM
Nice to see the article by Lowe. Nice that the Knicks are worth such an article.

But I'm surprised that he wastes any energy speculating about the Knicks running something other than the Triangle. That's more than useless. Likewise for anyone here to complain about it.

Phil Jackson is running the show. It's going to be the Triangle until he's gone. Period.

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12/1/2015  7:28 PM
Lowe:

"The Knicks' defense ranks just below the league's average in points allowed per possession, and even sniffing average is an achievement for the post-2000 Knicks. More than that, they look like a competent, engaged defense when they aren't fouling everyone in sight.

Derek Fisher, easing into the coaching job now, has installed an ultra-conservative shell that mimics how Terry Stotts used Lopez in Portland. The Knicks hang back against the pick-and-roll, funneling defenders toward Lopez in the floater zone. They want to turn every pick-and-roll into a 2-on-2 play so that the other three defenders can stick close to enemy shooters instead of darting into the paint to help.

[The defense's] one big trade-off: The Knicks will concede midrange shots in order to wall off the rim and swarm 3-point shooters. And it's kind of working! Only nine teams allow a lower percentage of shots from beyond the arc and the restricted area combined, per Nylon Calculus, and New York is defending at a borderline top-five level -- and holding its own on the glass -- when Porzingis and Lopez share the floor.

Porzingis is a talker, and he's proven rather spectacularly that he can hang with smaller players on switches. And when the Knicks do help, they're leaving the right players -- and staying close to everyone else. The Knicks rotation on defense is a careful and calculated plan to make sure the right guys are open and the wrong guys are not.

Unfortunately, they are also running up against the limits of their personnel. Calderon and the mercifully benched Sasha Vujacic can't stay in front of anyone; a bundle of New York fouls are emergency responses to drivers smashing through gaping holes at the top of the defense. Anthony has never really been up for chasing wing players, and he loves to swipe. The bigs are lurchy behemoths who hit people almost by accident.

Lopez drops so far back that teams can knife deep into the paint before meeting him. Give speedy guards a runway that long, and they'll create something good. New York has allowed the eighth-most attempts from the restricted area, more than a team playing this style should give up. Teams have only hit 31 percent of wide-open 3s against New York, and that number is already trending up.

Still, the Knicks seem to know which shots they should discourage on defense."


I find that Lowe's article educated me about the Knicks defense. But it had nothing much useful to say about the offense except that the players are not hitting shots . . .

HofstraBBall
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12/1/2015  8:45 PM
Good article. Besides typical mention of a Melo trade scenario that will never happen. Seems like A must in most NY Knick articles. Guess they feel it will get more attention. If we are judging the team correctly, Melo is not the problem. Inconsistent bench play, lapses in defense and bad outside shooting percentage during stretches seem to be more of a concern. Melo and KP seem to be good compliments to each other's games. Specially once Melo gets more strength in his legs. There are not many GM's that would not welcome those two as a solid building blocks. Think we are one or two good outside shooters away from a playoff berth. Like our chances late in close games once Aflalo, KP, and Melo are clicking on all cylinders.
'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
TPercy
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12/1/2015  9:22 PM
Great stuff.
Melo isn't being traded. But the both of Melo and KP should not be playing together though
Calderon
Afflalo
Melo
Thomas
Seraphin

Grant
Galloway
Dwill
KP
Lopez

Not perfect, but it gives us a lot of flexibility imo

The Future is Bright!
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12/1/2015  9:28 PM
mreinman wrote:article had me at this:

But should it change Anthony's place in the Knicks' long-term plans, or Phil Jackson's borderline religious devotion to an offensive system that looks outdated?

Not a great point considering we don't play the triangle. Melo certainly does not

gunsnewing
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12/1/2015  9:32 PM
Rookie wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Rookie wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Rookie wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:This is what caught my attention:

• Houston Rockets: Now we're talking. An underachieving contender desperate to win before Dwight Howard can bolt. The four-man package of Ty Lawson (sunk cost on an expiring deal), Patrick Beverley (a perfect triangle point guard!), Terrence Jones, and Trevor Ariza matches the combined salaries of Melo and Jose Calderon almost exactly -- a key bit of math synergy, since Houston is hard-capped. Toss in a Rockets pick, and you have the kind of mega-deal that makes both sides a little anxious.

Make it happen!

Between Melo's salary and No Trade Clause, he is a more likely candidate for the Amnesty provision then as a trade chip. This would also coincide with the 'patience' approach. If we spend our entire cap in 2016 improving the roster, we could then free up cap space again in 2017 by amnestying Melo. The 2017 FA class also looks a little deeper and we could build around KP, until then it is still Melo's team and personal stats will feed Melo's ball hogging ego.

amnesty Melo... I have really heard it all here.

33 y.o. Melo with 2 years left on his contract, or 1 year till he can opt out. It's going to be hard to trade aging max salary Melo with the looming opt out. What do you really get back, and would he waive his no trade clause to go to a competitive team that guts it's roster to get him...basically another rebuild. If you want to build around KP, you have to amnesty Melo.

No... you dont

So you are saying that we will be a contender in the Melo era? (trying to have a conversation, not an argument here)

Good luck with that

Nalod
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12/1/2015  9:40 PM
gunsnewing wrote:
Rookie wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Rookie wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Rookie wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:This is what caught my attention:

• Houston Rockets: Now we're talking. An underachieving contender desperate to win before Dwight Howard can bolt. The four-man package of Ty Lawson (sunk cost on an expiring deal), Patrick Beverley (a perfect triangle point guard!), Terrence Jones, and Trevor Ariza matches the combined salaries of Melo and Jose Calderon almost exactly -- a key bit of math synergy, since Houston is hard-capped. Toss in a Rockets pick, and you have the kind of mega-deal that makes both sides a little anxious.

Make it happen!

Between Melo's salary and No Trade Clause, he is a more likely candidate for the Amnesty provision then as a trade chip. This would also coincide with the 'patience' approach. If we spend our entire cap in 2016 improving the roster, we could then free up cap space again in 2017 by amnestying Melo. The 2017 FA class also looks a little deeper and we could build around KP, until then it is still Melo's team and personal stats will feed Melo's ball hogging ego.

amnesty Melo... I have really heard it all here.

33 y.o. Melo with 2 years left on his contract, or 1 year till he can opt out. It's going to be hard to trade aging max salary Melo with the looming opt out. What do you really get back, and would he waive his no trade clause to go to a competitive team that guts it's roster to get him...basically another rebuild. If you want to build around KP, you have to amnesty Melo.

No... you dont

So you are saying that we will be a contender in the Melo era? (trying to have a conversation, not an argument here)

Good luck with that

Sometimes things happen that you can't see on December 1st. Last year if someone said in 12 months we'd have a rookie franchise talent I'd have thought Oka4.

Im not giving up on Dwilliams as I have read Phil is getting him cornrows and he is changing his name to Kwai Leonard.

My ceiling for this year was .500 and 35-37 wins was my projection.

CrushAlot
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12/1/2015  10:39 PM
gunsnewing wrote:
Rookie wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Rookie wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Rookie wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:This is what caught my attention:

• Houston Rockets: Now we're talking. An underachieving contender desperate to win before Dwight Howard can bolt. The four-man package of Ty Lawson (sunk cost on an expiring deal), Patrick Beverley (a perfect triangle point guard!), Terrence Jones, and Trevor Ariza matches the combined salaries of Melo and Jose Calderon almost exactly -- a key bit of math synergy, since Houston is hard-capped. Toss in a Rockets pick, and you have the kind of mega-deal that makes both sides a little anxious.

Make it happen!

Between Melo's salary and No Trade Clause, he is a more likely candidate for the Amnesty provision then as a trade chip. This would also coincide with the 'patience' approach. If we spend our entire cap in 2016 improving the roster, we could then free up cap space again in 2017 by amnestying Melo. The 2017 FA class also looks a little deeper and we could build around KP, until then it is still Melo's team and personal stats will feed Melo's ball hogging ego.

amnesty Melo... I have really heard it all here.

33 y.o. Melo with 2 years left on his contract, or 1 year till he can opt out. It's going to be hard to trade aging max salary Melo with the looming opt out. What do you really get back, and would he waive his no trade clause to go to a competitive team that guts it's roster to get him...basically another rebuild. If you want to build around KP, you have to amnesty Melo.

No... you dont

So you are saying that we will be a contender in the Melo era? (trying to have a conversation, not an argument here)

Good luck with that


Yeah. Amnestying Melo is always a good conversation starter.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
mreinman
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12/1/2015  11:26 PM
From the WSJ article today:

Shot selection is another problem. The Knicks still shoot from midrange more than any other team, and rank in the bottom 10 in how often they shoot from 3-point range. They also rank in the bottom five in their rate of shots at the rim.
so here is what phil is thinking ....
NumberTwoPencil
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12/2/2015  1:13 AM
Going all the way back to the topic opener . . . yeah, Zach Lowe is, for my money, the best NBA beat writer. He's not just a good reporter, his work tends to hold up fairly well. Unlike many of his peers, he tends to avoid making predictions and focuses on what's actually going on so even his out of date articles are good reads.
Bonn1997
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12/2/2015  5:20 AM
crzymdups wrote:
mreinman wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
fishmike wrote:great read. Rarely does a sports writer actually articulate what is happening on the court and why its happening.

Really good stuff.

A couple tidbits... kind of sheds some light on Melo's shock at the draft when Mill's said he was high on the Knicks wish list.

I like the path we are taking now. Im still a big believer in Grant as a future piece. I like the culture we have and I think we will churn out some good players via old school development. My god could you imagine if we landed Jordan to pair up front with KP? Sigh...

Would've been incredible.

I wonder if Jordan would take that decision back if he could. I've already seen CP3 barking at him on the floor this year.

makes you think that we should have kept tyson (if we knew)

I hated the Tyson trade when it happened. Took me a while to come back around to Phil after that one. But apparently Melo and Tyson had bad blood - I think trading Tyson right before Free Agency as they did might've been a move Phil made to keep Melo around.


Did they? I remember Melo talking about considering going to Dallas to play with Dirk and Tyson when he was an FA.
Zach Lowe at ESPN tackles the Knicks/Porzingis

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