holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:last night's beat down had very little to do with Eli. He's a hell of a player. The Giants have a talent problem. They are simply a very middle of the road at best. They are pretty well coached, but simply dont have the horses. They are very weak at the LOS. You cant win if you are. Plain and simple. As for Eli's performance ask Tom Brady what happens when you get pressured every time you drop back. You can talk quick drops, and quick patterns until your blue in the face, if your losing the LOS battle its a very tough to win games. If you TO the ball also your cooked. Giants have huge holes up front. When those get fixed we can talk about coaching. Funny... Coughlin outcoached Belichick twice. Eli has outplayed Farve, Garcia, Romo, Rogers, Ryan head to head in playoff games and won two titles but they stink the rest of the time.

Giants have drafted very poorly and had some bad injury breaks as well over the last 5+ years. Eli and Coughlin are not the problem. Reese needs to go if anyone.

Hopefully we can build this thing up right. Flowers was a good pick. So was Collins. They need a ton more. Losing JPP really hurts. No impact players on defense. Two on offense. After Eli and OBJ nobody scares you. Share Vereen is the next best player and he's a very poor man's Tiki Barber at best.

I thought Reese's drafts were phenomenal...wow..

2014 looks good. Odell is obviously a star and Richburg (last night's beatdown aside) looks like a rotation player at least.
2013 is there one standout player? Pugh is average. Hankins is OK. Moore is OK. No impact players
2012 David Wilson injured (not the GM's fault). Randle has been solid but inconsistent. Hosley is a backup rotation guy. No impact players
2011 Prince is never healthy, but he's good. Not elite by any standards. Marvin Austin at #2?, no impact players.
2010 JPP is great, after that its Linval Joseph #2 and gets worse after that.
2009 Nicks was a good pick and an impact player. Sintim did squat, and nothing after that.

I will pass on grading this year's draft as its too early. Prior 6 years and 6 drafts the impact players have been JPP, Odell, Nicks and Prince. Im sorry, but that stinks over all. Clint Sintim, Linval Joseph, Marvin Austin, Randle, Hankins and Richburg are the #2 picks and that is a terrible showing as well.

He drafted a few good players but his body of work is terrible. phenomenal? I have no idea what your watching. For a team that uses the draft to build their team he's been very bad. Terrible. Also can you name one big FA? Dwanye Harris and Vareen have been pretty good, before this year his FA signings have been pretty bad also. Again... body of work stinks, and its reflected in the record.

Unless you subscribe to Coughlin has forgotten how to coach and we are losing because of Eli's brainfarts.

If we hire a new coach but Reese stays I will puke.

The beatdown came from the right side Newhouse and Schwatz..Newhouse was brought in by the OC from GB..
D Line is missing their 2 best pass rushers in JPP and Ayers
The fact that the center and left side are all picks is saying something...
Collins and Flowers are good..Kinard is ok..Andre Williams is soft..
He also picked Bardshaw and Boss
Kenny Phillips, Terrell Thomas, Manningham, Arron Ross, Steve Smith, Michael Johnson got hurt but was good...

Reece was 08, so Boss and Bradshaw were Acorsi.

Yes.. some guys got hurt, but thats why every pick is important. We waste our #2 pick it seems every year, and his body of work since taking over is not good. Ayers is good. Who are the pro-bowl players he's drafted?

You cant magically coach marginal talent to playoff wins. You can win some games, but go back and reflect.. we won SBs with guys like Eli, Tuck, Strahan, Osi, Nicks, Plaxico, Jacobs, Bradshaw, Snee, OHara... now we have Eli and Odell and if they dont win the game for us it was bad coaching.

Address the massive drop in roster talent and lack of impact players and I will be happy to put Eli's play and the coaches under the microscope.

Reese drafted Bradshaw and Boss and also Victor Cruz...

Eli, Odell, Cruz, JPP, Ayers, Donnell, Beason, Vareen, Jennings, Prince, TE with leg infection, Randell, James Jones was cut and now blowing it up in GB....Fact it we should have won two games that we lost because of play calling and sideline decisions..You can't escape that..Sure better personnel will win more games but every team can say that..If you are ahead with minutes less and you mismanage the clock, you can't blame the GM...

Victor Cruz was a walk on, pretty sure Bradsaw and Boss were Acorsi in 2007.

Simple question.. is the talent on a par with the teams that won SBs? I dont see it as such no, not even close, and Reese as a lot of high picks that have yielded nothing. How many of his top 3 picks from the last 4 years are in the rotation?

I have seen this coach and QB win superbowls. Does that excuse their every mistake? Of course not. I have my complaints about both Eli and TC. They have also shown they can win.

Every team can also say "if we dont make mistakes we win."

How many mistakes did Philly make? We lost because they were better. The guys you named are fine. That is not a SB caliber team. Its average NFL.

If you want to blame the coaches or Eli thats fine. They have made mistakes. This is not a great team being poorly coached. This is an average team at best. What you see is what you get. No coach calls a perfect game or has perfect clock management. I will live with Eli's bad plays because his body of work says something much more.

What does Reece's body of work say? This team is poorly built. I see that as #1 problem. There is a lack of overall talent, and a huge lack of playmakers. If Eli and Beckham dont beat you nobody else is

Reese was the GM in 2007...He drafted Bradshaw, Boss, Steve Smith and Aaron Ross that year...

If Stahan, Tuck, Nicks and Pierce were out and injured, the Superbowl team would look pretty ****ty too and void of talent...

You can make a mistake, but how do u call not running the clock to 2 sec on each play a mistake...Also telling your team not to score, a mistake??..

I didnt say it wasnt. That is a mistake.

What I am saying is the Giants are mediocre, and they arent mediocre because of Eli's clock management or TC's play calling. They are mediocre because the talent has dropped significantly over the recent years. Eli and TC have shown they can outplay and outcoach the best in the games. They have a pair of rings to show for that.

What has Reece done since being hired that gives you such great confidence in his ability to build a team?

He has been utterly average. For every good pick I can name 2 that were terrible.

Injuries are part of the NFL.

Whats your stance? You want Reece here but Eli and TC gone? Tell me... All I have heard from you is praise on Reece's drafts, depsite the defense getting worse every year, poor FA signings and really one bigtime player drafted since he took over in Odell. Everything else has been either utterly average or poor.

No, I don't want Eli gone at all..I like Eli, but he makes poor decisions under stressful situations...I want to limit those decisions..So I want a Head Coach who can involve himself in those decision making, heck I'll even keep McAdoo...But your HC have to know when two guys in your head set is talking about not scoring a TD as a strategy, he has to speak up...

Here is my push back against the Giant players are mediocre...This is the best secondary we have had since I can't even remember...Giants spend their money on pass rush, QB, receivers and O-Line some what...They patch together their LB, RB and secondary..It's been their philosophy since Ernie Arccosi...Having a good secondary is a plus...The problem now is their two best pass rushers are down..No secondary corps in the NFL can defend WRs without a pass rush..Not in today's NFL...Our best defensive player who is worth 100 mil blew off his fingers with fireworks..Amazing..Ayers can't get on the field...Hankins and Jenkins can do the job up the middle..We have zero pass rushers...So from a coaching stand point you can't make mistakes managing the clock to put the defense back on the field in critical situations especially in two minute drills against Julio Jones, Dez Bryant, etc...It's not rocket science...We need a coach who can see the big picture and have the stones to intervene when stupid plays are being called...Bill Cowher...

Again though... your saying the coaches need to be perfect because the talent on the field is subpar. That's been the story for about 4-5 years now.

Hey.. maybe I am just being impatient with Reece, but there are a LOT of dud zero impact picks and total failure to replace any of the studs on the LOS.

I like Eli, but he makes poor decisions under stressful situations...

Patriots are the one team that consistently drafts well and even they've had some duds.
Green Bay plenty of duds
Denver NoShow Moreno? duds
So on and so forth

Reece drafting Tuck, Osi, Kiwi, Nicks, Randle, finding Cruz, JPP, Prince, Odell, Collins & Flowers is pretty damn good. Signing Rolle, Plaxico pretty good. A ton of dud signings as well. O

One constant is he really sucks at drafting O-Line. He usually overlooks a clear cut 10yr cornerstone lineman or over reaches for a stiff. Hopefully he finally hit with Flowers

gunsnewing wrote:Sack em all including Reece for all I care but yes Eli is irreplaceable because if with all the bonehead rookie mistakes he is still the one of the best QB's in the league when you factor in being a key contributor to 2 Super Bowls. We may not see another winning QB for another 20years once Eli is gone. Look at the Giants after Phil Sims and the Jets of course.

Patriots are the one team that consistently drafts well and even they've had some duds.
Green Bay plenty of duds
Denver NoShow Moreno? duds
So on and so forth

Reece drafting Tuck, Osi, Kiwi, Nicks, Randle, finding Cruz, JPP, Prince, Odell, Collins & Flowers is pretty damn good. Signing Rolle, Plaxico pretty good. A ton of dud signings as well. O

One constant is he really sucks at drafting O-Line. He usually overlooks a clear cut 10yr cornerstone lineman or over reaches for a stiff. Hopefully he finally hit with Flowers

We went from having pro bowl caliber guys on the LOS to it being a weakness.

Flowers does look promising, but there are a LOT of warm bodies on this roster.

Eli has his dumb moments but anyone who doesnt look at his body of work and see he's a top QB in the league doesnt know the game. You can win SBs with this QB. He's a leader. He can win you games. He's clutch... if people want to focus on his negatives I dont know what to tell you.

Those guys all paid a part in the 2 Super Bowl wins and will always be held in high regard here. Sometimes it's time to move on and start fresh. It's inevitable anyway. What it is 4yrs missing the playoffs if they don't make it this year and Tom is 70. They will let him retire gracefully after the year tho batting another super bowl. This Coughlin/Mcadoo thing is not working. If the players like Mcadoo he will take the reigns but if I was a betting man he's a goner too. The players took the hit for Mcadoo not prepping Eli and the team of all the possibilities before the inexplicable delay of game. Yea Eli should've know after being in the league all these years but so should the coaches. I mean they don't work for free right?

gunsnewing wrote:You are right Fish. It was so long ago I forgot. There are worst GM's than Reece though. Look at Miami, Buffalo, Oakland, St. Louis, Cleveland, Jackson, Tampa etc

Those guys all paid a part in the 2 Super Bowl wins and will always be held in high regard here. Sometimes it's time to move on and start fresh. It's inevitable anyway. What it is 4yrs missing the playoffs if they don't make it this year and Tom is 70. They will let him retire gracefully after the year tho batting another super bowl. This Coughlin/Mcadoo thing is not working. If the players like Mcadoo he will take the reigns but if I was a betting man he's a goner too. The players took the hit for Mcadoo not prepping Eli and the team of all the possibilities before the inexplicable delay of game. Yea Eli should've know after being in the league all these years but so should the coaches. I mean they don't work for free right?

My beef on this whole thread is simply the team is mediocre. Its not fair to expect the QB and coach to be flawless to guide a mediocre team to a great season. It can happen and does, and it goes the other way as well. I thought Fassell took some mediocre teams on great runs, and had a couple really bad seasons with similar talented rosters.

Coughlin and Eli arent perfect, they are both plenty flawed. They have also shown they can hang with the very best in the business and beat them. Twice. Nothing means more in prosports than titles... and holfresh is saying Eli isnt a leader... SMH

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Sack em all including Reece for all I care but yes Eli is irreplaceable because if with all the bonehead rookie mistakes he is still the one of the best QB's in the league when you factor in being a key contributor to 2 Super Bowls. We may not see another winning QB for another 20years once Eli is gone. Look at the Giants after Phil Sims and the Jets of course.

Patriots are the one team that consistently drafts well and even they've had some duds.
Green Bay plenty of duds
Denver NoShow Moreno? duds
So on and so forth

Reece drafting Tuck, Osi, Kiwi, Nicks, Randle, finding Cruz, JPP, Prince, Odell, Collins & Flowers is pretty damn good. Signing Rolle, Plaxico pretty good. A ton of dud signings as well. O

One constant is he really sucks at drafting O-Line. He usually overlooks a clear cut 10yr cornerstone lineman or over reaches for a stiff. Hopefully he finally hit with Flowers

the best of the bunch you listed in Tuck, Osi and Plax were all Acorsi, not Reece. Kiwi was a first round pick who hung around a long time but was never a very high impact guy.

We went from having pro bowl caliber guys on the LOS to it being a weakness.

Flowers does look promising, but there are a LOT of warm bodies on this roster.

Eli has his dumb moments but anyone who doesnt look at his body of work and see he's a top QB in the league doesnt know the game. You can win SBs with this QB. He's a leader. He can win you games. He's clutch... if people want to focus on his negatives I dont know what to tell you.

Eli is not a leader by any stretch of the imagination...

then your clueless. Im sorry... but if you dont think Eli is a leader on that team, and has been a leader for many years including the SB seasons you really have been under a rock. Unless you know more than guys like Strahan, Osi, Snee, probowl caliber players who all talk about his leadership and have spent years playing with him... Seriously Eli isnt a leader? Please. Stop.. just stop.

at least he is consistent in conveying his values..

No OL...

No WINS...