knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:Funniest thing about this thread's title and the article is that there is really no recognition of how Thomas f'd up the Knicks...and how he did it on so many levels.

It's almost as if Thomas had never been in Phil's shoes before with the Knicks, and had simply been another applicant for the job Phil would eventually get.

Funniest line...He added ex-Knick assistant Herb Williams to the coaching staff to work with the frontcourt players.
I like Herb as a player, and he seems like a good guy...but never thought of him as a guy who could teach bigs the game. Does any PF or C in the league give Herb credit for turning around their game...just wondering.

I could probably live with Thomas being a talent assessor on the Knicks, but he had his chance to run the franchise, and he came up short.

Comparing the two jobs is foolish beyond belief.

Exactly. Two entirely different set of circumstances and Isiah already failed where Phil is just starting and by all accounts should have a grade of incomplete.

Isiah's grade would be incomplete as well, as this is his first season as prez of the liberty, but his first moves have put a losing franchise into a winning one right away

Phil has reduce the level of progress to people feeling comfortable with 30 to 35 wins. Essentially, the roster can finish with 27 wins and that would be a 10 game improvement, at the same time it can land you right back to the top of the lottery board with no lottery pick.

So 41 wins is not a option, it's a absolute must, or this is just another horrible failing season, with a little growth.

Very myopic all or nothing view. Usually the sign of a fan with no vision.

By that transitive logic, Kevin Durant who's known universal #2 best player on the planet, didn't make the playoffs last season. Horrible season.

Phil just acquired 2 #1 draft picks with another 2nd rounder who'll probably equate to being a late 1st rounder this upcoming season. Basically knew he was stuck from the Bargnani trade for the 2016 pick, to make a move and trade Hardaway for an extra pick.

Open your eyes, have some foresight for once!

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:Funniest thing about this thread's title and the article is that there is really no recognition of how Thomas f'd up the Knicks...and how he did it on so many levels.

It's almost as if Thomas had never been in Phil's shoes before with the Knicks, and had simply been another applicant for the job Phil would eventually get.

Funniest line...He added ex-Knick assistant Herb Williams to the coaching staff to work with the frontcourt players.
I like Herb as a player, and he seems like a good guy...but never thought of him as a guy who could teach bigs the game. Does any PF or C in the league give Herb credit for turning around their game...just wondering.

I could probably live with Thomas being a talent assessor on the Knicks, but he had his chance to run the franchise, and he came up short.

Comparing the two jobs is foolish beyond belief.

Exactly. Two entirely different set of circumstances and Isiah already failed where Phil is just starting and by all accounts should have a grade of incomplete.

Isiah's grade would be incomplete as well, as this is his first season as prez of the liberty, but his first moves have put a losing franchise into a winning one right away

Phil has reduce the level of progress to people feeling comfortable with 30 to 35 wins. Essentially, the roster can finish with 27 wins and that would be a 10 game improvement, at the same time it can land you right back to the top of the lottery board with no lottery pick.

So 41 wins is not a option, it's a absolute must, or this is just another horrible failing season, with a little growth.

This is a roster that has been turned over to a great degree. Most of your complaint seems to be focused on this season, which isn't really the most important point. This is a better foundation on which to build this team. I'd love to read what you think is wrong with what Phil has done with the roster.

Player	                Age	G	GS ▾	MP      2015-16
Carmelo Anthony	        30	40	40	35.7    Carmelo Anthony
Jose Calderon	        33	42	42	30.2    Jose Calderon
Langston Galloway	23	45	41	32.4	Langston Galloway	
Lou Amundson	        32	41	35	20.9	Lou Amundson
Lance Thomas	        26	40	24	26.0	Lance Thomas
Cleanthony Early	23	39	7	16.6	Cleanthony Early
Jason Smith	        28	82	31	21.8	Robin Lopez
Tim Hardaway	        22	70	30	24.0	Jerian Grant
Iman Shumpert	        24	24	24	26.0	Arron Afflalo
Shane Larkin	        22	76	22	24.5	Kristaps Porzingis
Quincy Acy	        24	68	22	18.9	Kyle O'Quinn
Andrea Bargnani	        29	29	22	27.1    Kevin Seraphin
Samuel Dalembert	33	32	21	17.0	Derrick Williams
Cole Aldrich	        26	61	16	16.0	Sasha Vujacic
Amar'e Stoudemire	32	36	14	24.0	Thanasis Antetokounmpo
Alexey Shved	        26	16	9	26.4	Wesley Saunders
J.R. Smith	        29	24	6	25.8	Darion Atkins

ChuckBuck wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Nalod wrote:There once was a gm named Isiah
Who wanted Anucha and Lay her.....

He traded for Marbury......
Things got heavy.....
The team won 23
He got extended and set free....
and now he runs the Liberty.......

I never understood the backlash....
Isiah just wanted her phat ass....
But clearly he has no class....

He traded for Marbury....
Didn't know Curry was too heavy....
Underestimated fans from New York City....

Now he's with the Liberty....
He's still making money....
But fans continue to be angry.....

Ole Zeke wanted Anucha's punani
Some girl got in the back of the truck with Marbury
Jerome James, Steve Franchise, and fat ass Eddie Curry

Draft and talent evaluator supreme Isiah
Best bud JD and The Straight Shot try to slay ya
Larry Brown never got a shot or a praya

Old man Walsh finally said see ya
From the CBA, to Indy, FIU always a complete disasta
Now time to free the Liberty, post rehab post Lunesta

A few more bars, and we might have our first UK single!

ChuckBuck wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:Funniest thing about this thread's title and the article is that there is really no recognition of how Thomas f'd up the Knicks...and how he did it on so many levels.

It's almost as if Thomas had never been in Phil's shoes before with the Knicks, and had simply been another applicant for the job Phil would eventually get.

Funniest line...He added ex-Knick assistant Herb Williams to the coaching staff to work with the frontcourt players.
I like Herb as a player, and he seems like a good guy...but never thought of him as a guy who could teach bigs the game. Does any PF or C in the league give Herb credit for turning around their game...just wondering.

I could probably live with Thomas being a talent assessor on the Knicks, but he had his chance to run the franchise, and he came up short.

Comparing the two jobs is foolish beyond belief.

Exactly. Two entirely different set of circumstances and Isiah already failed where Phil is just starting and by all accounts should have a grade of incomplete.

Isiah's grade would be incomplete as well, as this is his first season as prez of the liberty, but his first moves have put a losing franchise into a winning one right away

Phil has reduce the level of progress to people feeling comfortable with 30 to 35 wins. Essentially, the roster can finish with 27 wins and that would be a 10 game improvement, at the same time it can land you right back to the top of the lottery board with no lottery pick.

So 41 wins is not a option, it's a absolute must, or this is just another horrible failing season, with a little growth.

Very myopic all or nothing view. Usually the sign of a fan with no vision.

By that transitive logic, Kevin Durant who's known universal #2 best player on the planet, didn't make the playoffs last season. Horrible season.

Phil just acquired 2 #1 draft picks with another 2nd rounder who'll probably equate to being a late 1st rounder this upcoming season. Basically knew he was stuck from the Bargnani trade for the 2016 pick, to make a move and trade Hardaway for an extra pick.

Open your eyes, have some foresight for once!

your not listening, or better your being defensive against my post for whatever reason. If Phil quits the job tonight, his knick tenure would be remembered as a disaster, If Isiah quits tonight, his liberty tenure would be remembered as a success, so be it.

What happens in the future is anybody's guess, we all hope for the best. BUT If this season (coming up) is not a success, is he going to be patient with the roster, or make whole sale changes again and again. He wasn't patient with his last roster, and he has no picks to work with.

Was there better trades to be made last season, PROBABLY, no one was really happy with the moves anyway (I actually like the moves at first)but who knows what offers were available. I like what phill has done this off season, I really do, but if it doesn't pan out, (I mean work out immediately) not 2/3 yrs down the line, I'm going to be sooo disappointed and whatever little faith i had in him and fisher, will forever be gone, and I won't kill Dolan for going in another direction.

I'm not accepting anything below 40 wins this season, I strongly believe this roster should be atleast avg, and looking forward to being contenders next season.

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:Funniest thing about this thread's title and the article is that there is really no recognition of how Thomas f'd up the Knicks...and how he did it on so many levels.

It's almost as if Thomas had never been in Phil's shoes before with the Knicks, and had simply been another applicant for the job Phil would eventually get.

Funniest line...He added ex-Knick assistant Herb Williams to the coaching staff to work with the frontcourt players.
I like Herb as a player, and he seems like a good guy...but never thought of him as a guy who could teach bigs the game. Does any PF or C in the league give Herb credit for turning around their game...just wondering.

I could probably live with Thomas being a talent assessor on the Knicks, but he had his chance to run the franchise, and he came up short.

Comparing the two jobs is foolish beyond belief.

Exactly. Two entirely different set of circumstances and Isiah already failed where Phil is just starting and by all accounts should have a grade of incomplete.

Isiah's grade would be incomplete as well, as this is his first season as prez of the liberty, but his first moves have put a losing franchise into a winning one right away

Phil has reduce the level of progress to people feeling comfortable with 30 to 35 wins. Essentially, the roster can finish with 27 wins and that would be a 10 game improvement, at the same time it can land you right back to the top of the lottery board with no lottery pick.

So 41 wins is not a option, it's a absolute must, or this is just another horrible failing season, with a little growth.

Phil did what he had to do. He came in and tried to tweak things and see how the roster responded. He said that he was evaluating the roster to see who should stay. He didn't want to have to make as many wholesale changes at first and was hopeful that things would come together. Injuries didn't help. Once he got to see how poorly some of the players handled things, he did the right thing and trashed that plan for a much deeper rebuild and it was the right thing to do. Phil himself wants to make the playoffs this year and it doesn't matter what some fans will settle for. Phil and the team aren't looking to only win 30-35 games.

This is a roster that has been turned over to a great degree. Most of your complaint seems to be focused on this season, which isn't really the most important point. This is a better foundation on which to build this team. I'd love to read what you think is wrong with what Phil has done with the roster.

Player	                Age	G	GS ▾	MP      2015-16
Carmelo Anthony	        30	40	40	35.7    Carmelo Anthony
Jose Calderon	        33	42	42	30.2    Jose Calderon
Langston Galloway	23	45	41	32.4	Langston Galloway	
Lou Amundson	        32	41	35	20.9	Lou Amundson
Lance Thomas	        26	40	24	26.0	Lance Thomas
Cleanthony Early	23	39	7	16.6	Cleanthony Early
Jason Smith	        28	82	31	21.8	Robin Lopez
Tim Hardaway	        22	70	30	24.0	Jerian Grant
Iman Shumpert	        24	24	24	26.0	Arron Afflalo
Shane Larkin	        22	76	22	24.5	Kristaps Porzingis
Quincy Acy	        24	68	22	18.9	Kyle O'Quinn
Andrea Bargnani	        29	29	22	27.1    Kevin Seraphin
Samuel Dalembert	33	32	21	17.0	Derrick Williams
Cole Aldrich	        26	61	16	16.0	Sasha Vujacic
Amar'e Stoudemire	32	36	14	24.0	Thanasis Antetokounmpo
Alexey Shved	        26	16	9	26.4	Wesley Saunders
J.R. Smith	        29	24	6	25.8	Darion Atkins

Like I told chuck, It's a very solid roster, no more damn excuses

No one really talks about excuses but rather the actual circumstances of what happened last year. If there are never any "excuses" then it should never matter if your best players get injured, but we know that isn't true.

Phil has done the best he could do to get rid of the problems he saw in terms of player attitudes on last years roster. Getting rid of guys that can't stay focused or have behavior issues, lack BB IQ, lack dedication to their craft or being professional. Phil did improve the talent and fit for the system on the roster. All in all he's tried to eliminate as many reasons for failure as he could. It's still a process and this is still just the early stages. Just like last year Phil will be looking to see which players deserve to stay and who can't cut it. Hopefully there are very few duds this time.

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:Funniest thing about this thread's title and the article is that there is really no recognition of how Thomas f'd up the Knicks...and how he did it on so many levels.

It's almost as if Thomas had never been in Phil's shoes before with the Knicks, and had simply been another applicant for the job Phil would eventually get.

Funniest line...He added ex-Knick assistant Herb Williams to the coaching staff to work with the frontcourt players.
I like Herb as a player, and he seems like a good guy...but never thought of him as a guy who could teach bigs the game. Does any PF or C in the league give Herb credit for turning around their game...just wondering.

I could probably live with Thomas being a talent assessor on the Knicks, but he had his chance to run the franchise, and he came up short.

Comparing the two jobs is foolish beyond belief.

Exactly. Two entirely different set of circumstances and Isiah already failed where Phil is just starting and by all accounts should have a grade of incomplete.

Isiah's grade would be incomplete as well, as this is his first season as prez of the liberty, but his first moves have put a losing franchise into a winning one right away

Phil has reduce the level of progress to people feeling comfortable with 30 to 35 wins. Essentially, the roster can finish with 27 wins and that would be a 10 game improvement, at the same time it can land you right back to the top of the lottery board with no lottery pick.

So 41 wins is not a option, it's a absolute must, or this is just another horrible failing season, with a little growth.

Phil did what he had to do. He came in and tried to tweak things and see how the roster responded. He said that he was evaluating the roster to see who should stay. He didn't want to have to make as many wholesale changes at first and was hopeful that things would come together. Injuries didn't help. Once he got to see how poorly some of the players handled things, he did the right thing and trashed that plan for a much deeper rebuild and it was the right thing to do. Phil himself wants to make the playoffs this year and it doesn't matter what some fans will settle for. Phil and the team aren't looking to only win 30-35 games.

This is a roster that has been turned over to a great degree. Most of your complaint seems to be focused on this season, which isn't really the most important point. This is a better foundation on which to build this team. I'd love to read what you think is wrong with what Phil has done with the roster.

Player	                Age	G	GS ▾	MP      2015-16
Carmelo Anthony	        30	40	40	35.7    Carmelo Anthony
Jose Calderon	        33	42	42	30.2    Jose Calderon
Langston Galloway	23	45	41	32.4	Langston Galloway	
Lou Amundson	        32	41	35	20.9	Lou Amundson
Lance Thomas	        26	40	24	26.0	Lance Thomas
Cleanthony Early	23	39	7	16.6	Cleanthony Early
Jason Smith	        28	82	31	21.8	Robin Lopez
Tim Hardaway	        22	70	30	24.0	Jerian Grant
Iman Shumpert	        24	24	24	26.0	Arron Afflalo
Shane Larkin	        22	76	22	24.5	Kristaps Porzingis
Quincy Acy	        24	68	22	18.9	Kyle O'Quinn
Andrea Bargnani	        29	29	22	27.1    Kevin Seraphin
Samuel Dalembert	33	32	21	17.0	Derrick Williams
Cole Aldrich	        26	61	16	16.0	Sasha Vujacic
Amar'e Stoudemire	32	36	14	24.0	Thanasis Antetokounmpo
Alexey Shved	        26	16	9	26.4	Wesley Saunders
J.R. Smith	        29	24	6	25.8	Darion Atkins

Like I told chuck, It's a very solid roster, no more damn excuses

No one really talks about excuses but rather the actual circumstances of what happened last year. If there are never any "excuses" then it should never matter if your best players get injured, but we know that isn't true.

Phil has done the best he could do to get rid of the problems he saw in terms of player attitudes on last years roster. Getting rid of guys that can't stay focused or have behavior issues, lack BB IQ, lack dedication to their craft or being professional. Phil did improve the talent and fit for the system on the roster. All in all he's tried to eliminate as many reasons for failure as he could. It's still a process and this is still just the early stages. Just like last year Phil will be looking to see which players deserve to stay and who can't cut it. Hopefully there are very few duds this time.

Phil contributed to the issues by always talking about a possible player movement and if players don't get it they'll be gone. when he didn't re-up with larkin and shump prior to the season(that means the players not part of the future and you don't trust them) that's a distraction.

I'm not saying what he did was wrong, im only saying these things have trickle down effect.

Guys with character will be motivated by a challenge. He wasn't bashing them. He in fact had nice things to say about Shump from the start. Doesn't mean that it wasn't always a tough spot for Shump.

"Even though Iman Shumpert was in [former Knicks coach] Mike Woodson's dog house for much of last season, he's one of my favorites because he's simply our best on-ball defender at the 2 position and also against the bigger 1s. Once he learns the intricacies of the offense, Iman will be able to create scoring opportunities for his teammates and, unlike last season, he'll know where his own shots will come from," Jackson said, via ESPN.com.

Talk about a complete 180. Just two months ago Shumpert appeared to be a most likely candidate to be traded considering he was still young and athletic and had an expiring contract to his name. Now he is a Jackson favorite. However, that still might not save Shumpert from a mid-season trade. Right now, the Knicks have not even began to touch contract negotiations for the guard. He has a player option in his contract for next season, one most assume is not getting picked up. If the Knicks can put together a solid deal for Shumpert, it will not matter if he is one of Jackson's favorites or not.

IMO he would've needed to show that he was worth keeping as a part of the future. How he handled the adversity was probably part of the evaluation of making the trade. In the end Phil probably made up his mind that he needed to start over and really do a deeper cleaning of the roster. They probably had already identified Free Agent and draft targets as well as roster makeup well before the trade went down.

dk7th wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:Funniest thing about this thread's title and the article is that there is really no recognition of how Thomas f'd up the Knicks...and how he did it on so many levels.

It's almost as if Thomas had never been in Phil's shoes before with the Knicks, and had simply been another applicant for the job Phil would eventually get.

Funniest line...He added ex-Knick assistant Herb Williams to the coaching staff to work with the frontcourt players.
I like Herb as a player, and he seems like a good guy...but never thought of him as a guy who could teach bigs the game. Does any PF or C in the league give Herb credit for turning around their game...just wondering.

I could probably live with Thomas being a talent assessor on the Knicks, but he had his chance to run the franchise, and he came up short.

Comparing the two jobs is foolish beyond belief.

Exactly. Two entirely different set of circumstances and Isiah already failed where Phil is just starting and by all accounts should have a grade of incomplete.

Isiah's grade would be incomplete as well, as this is his first season as prez of the liberty, but his first moves have put a losing franchise into a winning one right away

Phil has reduce the level of progress to people feeling comfortable with 30 to 35 wins. Essentially, the roster can finish with 27 wins and that would be a 10 game improvement, at the same time it can land you right back to the top of the lottery board with no lottery pick.

So 41 wins is not a option, it's a absolute must, or this is just another horrible failing season, with a little growth.

i don't see how these thoughts are connected. we don't have a draft pick this season because of the previous gm, not phil jackson. so if we end up falling short of the playoffs this should not be something you lay on jackson. really anything over 34 wins is going to be a sign of genuine progress. so far as being attractive to free agents, i wonder what free agents you are thinking about? also, why would you assume that the win-loss record in a rebuilding situation would be seen in a vacuum by free agents, and not in the context of a team heading in the right direction?

strange perspective you have, almost like you're trying to stir up an argument where an argument is unnecessary.

Because how many 1st tier FA came to NY this off season, in fact how many went to non playoff teams. Nobody really wants to go to a rebuilding team, it's pretty much a fact that most players want to go to a winning situation.

If your not making the playoffs your not improving. Really, whats the difference between 25 and 30 wins, you still have a losing atmosphere, trust and believe you will end up consistently flipping your roster, and trading your young talent.

One of the Main Reason EWING was able to stay in NY for so long, was the fact that he made the playoffs every season since he became a knick

dk7th wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:Funniest thing about this thread's title and the article is that there is really no recognition of how Thomas f'd up the Knicks...and how he did it on so many levels.

It's almost as if Thomas had never been in Phil's shoes before with the Knicks, and had simply been another applicant for the job Phil would eventually get.

Funniest line...He added ex-Knick assistant Herb Williams to the coaching staff to work with the frontcourt players.
I like Herb as a player, and he seems like a good guy...but never thought of him as a guy who could teach bigs the game. Does any PF or C in the league give Herb credit for turning around their game...just wondering.

I could probably live with Thomas being a talent assessor on the Knicks, but he had his chance to run the franchise, and he came up short.

Comparing the two jobs is foolish beyond belief.

Exactly. Two entirely different set of circumstances and Isiah already failed where Phil is just starting and by all accounts should have a grade of incomplete.

Isiah's grade would be incomplete as well, as this is his first season as prez of the liberty, but his first moves have put a losing franchise into a winning one right away

Phil has reduce the level of progress to people feeling comfortable with 30 to 35 wins. Essentially, the roster can finish with 27 wins and that would be a 10 game improvement, at the same time it can land you right back to the top of the lottery board with no lottery pick.

So 41 wins is not a option, it's a absolute must, or this is just another horrible failing season, with a little growth.

i don't see how these thoughts are connected. we don't have a draft pick this season because of the previous gm, not phil jackson. so if we end up falling short of the playoffs this should not be something you lay on jackson. really anything over 34 wins is going to be a sign of genuine progress. so far as being attractive to free agents, i wonder what free agents you are thinking about? also, why would you assume that the win-loss record in a rebuilding situation would be seen in a vacuum by free agents, and not in the context of a team heading in the right direction?

strange perspective you have, almost like you're trying to stir up an argument where an argument is unnecessary.

Because how many 1st tier FA came to NY this off season, in fact how many went to non playoff teams. Nobody really wants to go to a rebuilding team, it's pretty much a fact that most players want to go to a winning situation.

If your not making the playoffs your not improving. Really, whats the difference between 25 and 30 wins, you still have a losing atmosphere, trust and believe you will end up consistently flipping your roster, and trading your young talent.

One of the Main Reason EWING was able to stay in NY for so long, was the fact that he made the playoffs every season since he became a knick

i don't know... there are several factors involved regarding free agents deciding where to go: money, fit, stage of career

for example, lets say the knicks win between 32-38 games. a free agent whose 30 is running out of time and doesn't want to squander his twilight years in a rebuild and prefers a winning situation. then there are younger players who may be just entering their prime who are perhaps 27-28 years of age-- the knicks winning 32-38 games and who are trending upwards would be an appealing place to go to, no?

look at it this way: outside of durant who among the free agents in 2016 is appealing? here's the list:

http://www.spotrac.com/nba/free-agents/2016/

You also have to look at a team's age makeup, and if there are any emerging younger players on it.

Using an extreme example- What if the Knicks finish strong and end up with 39 wins, and what if KP and Grant were to finish in the top 5 for ROY, and both make first team all-rookie? O'Quinn performs well in a system he should be comfortable with...Galloway improves his game, Seraphin does well and indicates that he might want to stay with the team, Lopez and Aflalo are solid, and Anthony makes a full comeback.

Continuing on with my scenario, I can't see why a top tier FA would shy away from a team that improves by 20 games and has some some young players already emerging, as well as some established vets you can count on, even if that team does not make the playoffs.

A lot will depend on how we do in the second half of the season, how guys mesh, and what happens with the development of KP and Jerian.

We also have enough younger veterans to make you think that the team can continue to improve over the next few years.

Many variables, but a non-playoff team could still be an attractive destination if it seems to be on the rise.

dk7th wrote:[look at it this way: outside of durant who among the free agents in 2016 is appealing? here's the list:

http://www.spotrac.com/nba/free-agents/2016/

Maybe this means that 2015 was the year to swing for the fences and land the marquee free agent that would have made us a contender, i.e. going all out to recruit LMA. And not accomplishing that can be deemed a failure. In which case, the management should have tried option 2 and positioned itself to land Durant next year. But we no longer have the cap space for Durant. Another failure?

WaltLongmire wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:Funniest thing about this thread's title and the article is that there is really no recognition of how Thomas f'd up the Knicks...and how he did it on so many levels.

It's almost as if Thomas had never been in Phil's shoes before with the Knicks, and had simply been another applicant for the job Phil would eventually get.

Funniest line...He added ex-Knick assistant Herb Williams to the coaching staff to work with the frontcourt players.
I like Herb as a player, and he seems like a good guy...but never thought of him as a guy who could teach bigs the game. Does any PF or C in the league give Herb credit for turning around their game...just wondering.

I could probably live with Thomas being a talent assessor on the Knicks, but he had his chance to run the franchise, and he came up short.

Comparing the two jobs is foolish beyond belief.

Exactly. Two entirely different set of circumstances and Isiah already failed where Phil is just starting and by all accounts should have a grade of incomplete.

Isiah's grade would be incomplete as well, as this is his first season as prez of the liberty, but his first moves have put a losing franchise into a winning one right away

Phil has reduce the level of progress to people feeling comfortable with 30 to 35 wins. Essentially, the roster can finish with 27 wins and that would be a 10 game improvement, at the same time it can land you right back to the top of the lottery board with no lottery pick.

So 41 wins is not a option, it's a absolute must, or this is just another horrible failing season, with a little growth.

Very myopic all or nothing view. Usually the sign of a fan with no vision.

By that transitive logic, Kevin Durant who's known universal #2 best player on the planet, didn't make the playoffs last season. Horrible season.

Phil just acquired 2 #1 draft picks with another 2nd rounder who'll probably equate to being a late 1st rounder this upcoming season. Basically knew he was stuck from the Bargnani trade for the 2016 pick, to make a move and trade Hardaway for an extra pick.

Open your eyes, have some foresight for once!

your not listening, or better your being defensive against my post for whatever reason. If Phil quits the job tonight, his knick tenure would be remembered as a disaster, If Isiah quits tonight, his liberty tenure would be remembered as a success, so be it.

What happens in the future is anybody's guess, we all hope for the best. BUT If this season (coming up) is not a success, is he going to be patient with the roster, or make whole sale changes again and again. He wasn't patient with his last roster, and he has no picks to work with.

Was there better trades to be made last season, PROBABLY, no one was really happy with the moves anyway (I actually like the moves at first)but who knows what offers were available. I like what phill has done this off season, I really do, but if it doesn't pan out, (I mean work out immediately) not 2/3 yrs down the line, I'm going to be sooo disappointed and whatever little faith i had in him and fisher, will forever be gone, and I won't kill Dolan for going in another direction.

I'm not accepting anything below 40 wins this season, I strongly believe this roster should be atleast avg, and looking forward to being contenders next season.

Yeah...you do seem like the kind of fan who liked Isiah's quick fix...F the high draft picks, approach.

Jackson came on knowing that in 2 of his first 3 years he had no draft picks, so he was handcuffed from the start.

He has not been perfect, but has managed to turn things around, IMO.

I would rather see a younger team grow, improve, and emerge as a playoff team in 2/3 years than have the one and done geriatric team that we had a few years ago when we won the division.

When do we get the "Fire Fisher...Hire Laimbeer" thread from you?

"Change" is not always "improvement". Its easy to say "Im only into winning" as if somehow its a special character who won't tolerate anything but!!!!
That's fine for ones personal value statement but the process of building a winner and identifying installing the very components is not always obvious to fans.

Some fans have held that trading Tyson and Felton for Larking, Dalembert, Early and Calderon some how destroyed the franchise. Far from it.
If we don't resign Melo, somehow fans think somehow we'd be a better team? More cap space?

I doubt any fans "Settles for 30 wins" but after decades of mismanagement and starphuched illusions Im very glad the investment in Phil who is installing a culture which the best run pro franchises have.

SAS, ST Louis Cardinals, NY Yankees, and the Patriots all have made some mistakes but upon close examination they have excelled over long periods of time for various reasons. They have long tenured management and coaching. The team and system comes first. If players don't fit in they are either not drafted or traded. SAS has succeeded by this. Yankees this year in first place at the time did not deviate from its youth movement. The cardinals I am not that familiar with but year in and year out they have been able to stay relevant in a smaller market. For goodness sake they let Pujols walk!!!! Dude is the best of this generation but did not let his salary demands derail the plan fearing the fans would revolt.

Yankees have stayed with Cashen and Gerardi. It matters.

Team above the star.

My hope is not just winning to attract free agents, but players also want to enjoy their employer and trust the situation they are walking into. Knicks are in the early phases. If successful it will last beyond melo and beyond phil.

The future is uncertain but do the right things over time add up.