RonRon wrote:

dk7th wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

fishmike wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Sangfroid wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

dk7th wrote:

BigSm00th wrote:http://www.si.com/nba/2015/07/28/jose-calderon-kyle-singler-zach-lavine-knicks-thunder-wolves-nba-free-agency

Jose Calderon, Knicks

Calderon's best basketball may be behind him, but I'm not quite ready to write off one of the league's most precise shooters and facilitators. Everything went wrong for Calderon last season: The learning curve of the triangle offense was a struggle for some teammates; Carmelo Anthony's injuries robbed the Knicks of their only star; a general lack of talent put New York at a nightly disadvantage; and most relevant of all, Calderon was bothered (and eventually sidelined) by an Achilles injury that compromised his season.

Each of those factors will be addressed in some fashion for the coming season, beginning with Calderon's health. For a player of Calderon's age (he'll turn 34 in September) to battle through a serious injury is never heartening for his future prospects. Yet Calderon expects to be fully healthy for the start of training camp, which should be good enough for a player who has never relied on athletic explosion. An injured Achilles hindered Calderon in subtler ways—not necessarily limiting his ability to get the shots he wanted, but nagging subtly on his lift and accompanying every jumper with a sharp pain.

It came as little surprise, then, that so many of Calderon's pull-up jumpers out of the pick-and-roll and spot-up threes from the week side would come up short. His shooting efficiency plummeted in both regards, robbing Calderon of one of the particular qualities that made him a perfect fit for the triangle. This year should be different. A healthier Calderon stands to benefit greatly from New York's partial rebuild and further acclimation to a motion system. Anthony and Arron Afflalo will be spoon-fed jump-shooting opportunities by Calderon's passing. Robin Lopez and Kristaps Porzingis will have a sharp, experienced pick-and-roll partner who doesn't need to dribble penetrate to create openings for others.

A healthy Calderon makes the Knicks better—not so much so that they might make the playoffs, but enough for his presence and influence to be notable all the same.

i said this the other day in another thread. Calderon returning to the player he was in Dallas (2 seasons ago he played/started 81 games, 11 pts/5 ast/1 turnover while shooting 45% from 3) will likely decide if this team has the potential to make the playoffs or not.

amazing how so many writers constantly gloss over defense. he is a 34 year old defensive sieve and as such is much closer to a zero-sum player even when healthy. come on si you're better than that!

That can't be right though. His efficiency is off the charts offensively. His TS had been very good, doesn't turn the ball over go much, his Ast% at times doubled his USG. He didn't shoot as good as he normally does last season so he became more of a liability. But if healthy and shooting to his standards should all this efficiency make him overall a positive contributor. Not to mention he is supposed to be a high character guy who you love to have in your locker room.

Well I sure hope that guy turns up this season

I actually meant for this to be a question as I'm not an advanced stats guru.

last year aside Jose is a good advanced stats guy, so saying he's a zero sum player is has no basis in reality.

This some of the last basketball Jose played before joining the Knicks last year: Actually take a look at this... people here have no clue this is a good player. Not great... he's got his limitations but he's good.

When your making Sam Dalembert look like a baller you know how to play

I remember arguing with people about Jose last year. As with everything bad that happened last year it allows the guys against Jose to keep up this false narrative that he's a horrible player. He's not a horrible player. He may have limitations but when you have a healthy Jose and a decent team he's a good PG to have on your roster.

This year we hope to have a healthy Jose and that will make things easier for Jerian and Galloway, if Jose is able to play like he normally does. The same goes for Melo. He's not this terrible team killing player that people try to make him out to be. We just need these guys to be healthy. Hopefully with a better roster we can keep these guys healthy this year. They shouldn't have to push so hard that they break.

at his best he is mediocre, not a difference maker. his career is one characterized by mediocrity. much of this is due to his being a lousy defender. that is not going to change. a bounceback season means recovering from outright suckitude and back to mediocrity.

Perhaps you don't understand how Efficiency works. Per 100 possessions they calculate how many points a player produces or gives up. For Jose's career he is a PLUS player in terms of his production.

        ORtg	DRtg
2012-13  126	111
2013-14  120	112
2014-15  103	113
Career   118	112

Jose's Win Share 48

2011-12 .136
2012-13 .165
2013-14 .122
2014-15 .033

Last year was the rare time when he was under water. He has not been a mediocre player for his career as you inaccurately stated.

"In a later chapter of Basketball on Paper, Oliver emphasized that Offensive Ratings shouldn't be viewed in a vacuum. Introducing a concept he called "Skill Curves", he acknowledged that a player's ORtg needed to be judged in conjunction with his Usage Rate, a measure of how big a role the player fills in his team's offense. The bigger the role, the more difficult it is to maintain a high ORtg; the smaller the role, the easier it is to be highly efficient. Because of this, Oliver stressed that a player's ORtg should primarily be compared to those of other players in a similar role."

calderon's usage for his career is less than 18% so his offensive rating is overstated.

"Out of necessity (owing to a lack of defensive data in the basic boxscore), individual Defensive Ratings are heavily influenced by the team's defensive efficiency. They assume that all teammates are equally good (per minute) at forcing non-steal turnovers and non-block misses, as well as assuming that all teammates face the same number of total possessions per minute."

this needs no further elaboration. take a look at this instead:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/bpm.html

That's all great stuff but in the end I still don't see you providing much evidence that Jose is mediocre. His WS/48 has been above average and he's posted some solid shooting efficiencies and low turnovers over his career. He's had a career TS% of 57.5. He's not going to be less efficient at scoring the ball just because he takes more shots. He's not a ball dominant PG so of course his Usage will be low. That's actually a good thing in this offense. We want the ball moving and when Jose does have the ball we want efficient offense and not pounding the ball or selfish ball. Jose is a very capable guard at setting up his teammates and creating efficient scoring opportunities. He's not a DRose or John Wall type, but that doesn't make him mediocre in a team concept.

his TS% is quite good that is true. his assist to usage ratio has also been excellent. but his defense has been terrible and he does not get to the line. so i am pointing out his plusses and minuses.

you must ask yourself why has he not had more success in his career, especially in the playoffs. is it the "law of melo" ie there are always better teams with better players he has had to face and he never had the opportunity to play with really good players?

IMO if he played on Dallas in his prime, or played under MDA he would be viewed differently. Those are situations that meshed with what he brought to the table.

Side question, who is the better player Jose Calderon or Jeremy Lin?

he is still a defensive liability his entire career.... his best season was in 2007 when he was 26. every other season he has been a shade better or a shade worse than mediocre and it's because he gives up as much as gives. same with stoudemire. same with melo.

yes to d'antoni's ssol being the right system for him to excel in, but you still have to be able to defend the position. the suns had nash and stoudemire out there but in the playoffs you can't win with two defensive liabilities on the floor together.

of the two *right now* i would rather that lin was a knick.

Hey DK, I am not saying that Calderon will be an ALL STAR but I do believe that his ability to spread the floor, push the tempo as the 2nd/3rd ball handler, and as the 2nd/3rd play maker would actually help the team

Everyone has their own opinions and this is a message board, you have your reasons for your side of the arguement..
You keep bringing up Calderon's whole sum because of his DEFENSE

However, there are many great players that were HORRIBLE DEFENDERS and Calderon is not a player that does not give effort on DEFENSE either

What did you think of Steve Nash as a basketball player? In Dallas and The Suns....
What did you think of DEFENSE? Is it better or worse than Calderon's?

So with Steve Nash, whether you choose to remember him as the WORST STARTING PG on DEFENSE or one of the BEST PG's WITHOUT any physical abilities with speed/quickness/length/athleticism is up to you
However, Calderon could play a role similar to one that Leanadro Barbosa played last year for GS and still be effective with the right pieces around him
What he makes in his contract is irrelevant if we can not trade him, at least not worth it right now to do so with the assets needed
1 year and a half from now, however, he becomes an expiring and if we save the 3m to use in trades for him, he becomes very trade able with many teams having plenty of salary rise of 20m for the next 2 seasons, even without a draft pick

1- Calderon being traded with OKC
===========================================

For OKC and a trade for Westbrook for example, Calderon, Affalo, Derrick Williams, with 150% rule, and 2 1st rounders, ALL CONTRACTS are EXPIRINGS, adding in 3m that we can use in trades each season
However, if Westbrook PUSHES a trade to New York or another TOP TIER talent, as an expiring and fill in, his contract DOES NOT hold negative value but a necessary pieces for salary reasons as an expiring

2- Calderon being traded with Twolves
============================================

Along with a possible trade with Twolves, for Shabazz Muhammad, maybe Nemanja Bjelica as well, with 1 1st rounder
And with Muhammad, he will be a RFA the following year with a qualifying offer of $4,237,401
However, next year he is an expiring and we could use his contract to match salaries and as he goes closer to the trade deadline, as long as we attach the 3m we can use in trades, many teams will actually take him even with a draft pick as an expiring with the 3m in trades that we can use every season and Bjelica *SF/PF* would be in the 2nd year of his 3year 12m deal, especially if we trade CA
While we place the qualifying offer on Muhammad and resign him AFTER we target a TOP tier STAR like Westbrook, like the Spurs did with Kawaii Leanard to add 2 players that have the ability to penetrate/finish through contact, and both can POST UP, and can create and facilitate for the team

We are stuck with Calderon and he isn't worth using an asset to trade
However, he does have the ability to spread the floor with other skills that would benefit the roster including pushing the tempo (as the 2nd/3rd ball handler in the lineup), 3pt spacing, willingness to get others involved first, assist/TO ratio, HIGH BB IQ, ability to control tempo without TO's, and locker room presence

Calderon's DEFENSE >>> Steve Nash's DEFENSE

Calderon can also shoot a high FG and 3pt %, as last season was the only season he struggled and he never was relied on athleticism, speed/quickness, and physical abilities, but with HIGH BB IQ/SMARTS to begin with

He can also handle the ball, though we do not want him to be the primary ball handler, we need another PG/SG or another position to penetrate and finish through contact, create and facilitation with consistency

When Calderon was with Dallas
======================================

Monta Ellis was the primary ball handler and creator/facilitator for the guard positoin along with Dirk
That was why Monta Ellis and Dirk Nowitski fit in with Calderon on OFFENSE, though they struggled with DEFENSE and that was why he was traded
Monta Ellis has the ability to penetrate and facilitate IF you have the 3pt shooters to space him out with other HIGH IQ players that know how to move without the ball

Dirk was the 2nd or 3rd ball handler, also had Devin Harris to run 3 guard lineups at times as well that could make Calderon the 3rd/4th ball handler
And Dirk is a very under rated point/forward/center or whatever you want to call him, he can POST UP in deep post position on switches with the PnR, POST IN MID RANGE, and run the PnR with so many different options with him and the guy using the screen

i think that nash was one robert horry hip-check into the scorer's table and one bleeding nose gash away from reaching the finals. you mention barbosa... i remember quite clearly remarking that once they could not get nash back in the game that barbosa would not be up to the task of running the offense and next thing you know the suns lose the game. the only black mark on popovich's and duncan's epic career is that series. had those two things not happened the suns would have beaten the spurs and run the cavaliers out of the gym.

but in the playoffs the game becomes rougher, grabbier, and the defenses become much more intense in their efforts. i will always respect nash's artistry and wizardy-- i have never seen a better ballhandler, passer, and shooter-- but ultimately his lack of defense always undermined his offensive prowess, as well it should have and did.

so to me the only argument to be made is that great orchestrating point guards are going to do great in the regular season but come playoff time they had better be able to defend the position or the odds are against their teams-- we are talking point of attack and draining the shot clock versus last line of defense and counting on rotations to catch up with the ball... savvy?

at the end of the day i am going to recite an old basketball adage: offense may come and go but defense is forever.

Rookie wrote:

Watching Jason Kidd trying to shoot 3's on dead legs was painful, but he was still a great floor general and had a knack for the big play when we needed it. I haven't ever seen Jose have that killer instinct or raise his game to the situation. Nash was crafty, almost like he could see what was going to happen before it did and he had license to dribble around all day long until he got defenses to bite. Jose's game is very predictable and the triangle makes him even more predictable. He is not athletic, makes lazy predictable passes. He can't stay in front of opposing guards and last year his body broke down and he couldn't shoot. Now, a year later he is supposed to stay healthy and bounce back. I would love to see that, but it is more likely last years Jose is this years Jose. I hope he can contribute, but he is never going to stay healthy for 82 games. The end of Nash's career was a disaster, he should have retired. Kidd knew he hung around one year to many. Jose is in the same boat. Not many PG's can be productive after age 34

Kidd and Nash were more like 40 when they retired. When they were 34 they were still all-star level.

Andre Miller is another guy - he put up 13ppg and 7apg on 46% shooting for Portland when he was 34. Played at an extremely high level til he was 36, then became more of a crafty leadership back up type.

crzymdups wrote:

Rookie wrote:

Watching Jason Kidd trying to shoot 3's on dead legs was painful, but he was still a great floor general and had a knack for the big play when we needed it. I haven't ever seen Jose have that killer instinct or raise his game to the situation. Nash was crafty, almost like he could see what was going to happen before it did and he had license to dribble around all day long until he got defenses to bite. Jose's game is very predictable and the triangle makes him even more predictable. He is not athletic, makes lazy predictable passes. He can't stay in front of opposing guards and last year his body broke down and he couldn't shoot. Now, a year later he is supposed to stay healthy and bounce back. I would love to see that, but it is more likely last years Jose is this years Jose. I hope he can contribute, but he is never going to stay healthy for 82 games. The end of Nash's career was a disaster, he should have retired. Kidd knew he hung around one year to many. Jose is in the same boat. Not many PG's can be productive after age 34

Kidd and Nash were more like 40 when they retired. When they were 34 they were still all-star level.

Andre Miller is another guy - he put up 13ppg and 7apg on 46% shooting for Portland when he was 34. Played at an extremely high level til he was 36, then became more of a crafty leadership back up type.

And yet Calderon remains un-tradable. Time to face reality, Calderon isn't bouncing back, he is only going to continue to decline and that's only if he doesn't get injured again which he most likely will. Nash and Kidd were both better players in their decline then Calderon ever was in his prime. Calderon in his decline is only more...declined

nixluva wrote:

Rookie wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Rookie wrote:

Watching Jason Kidd trying to shoot 3's on dead legs was painful, but he was still a great floor general and had a knack for the big play when we needed it. I haven't ever seen Jose have that killer instinct or raise his game to the situation. Nash was crafty, almost like he could see what was going to happen before it did and he had license to dribble around all day long until he got defenses to bite. Jose's game is very predictable and the triangle makes him even more predictable. He is not athletic, makes lazy predictable passes. He can't stay in front of opposing guards and last year his body broke down and he couldn't shoot. Now, a year later he is supposed to stay healthy and bounce back. I would love to see that, but it is more likely last years Jose is this years Jose. I hope he can contribute, but he is never going to stay healthy for 82 games. The end of Nash's career was a disaster, he should have retired. Kidd knew he hung around one year to many. Jose is in the same boat. Not many PG's can be productive after age 34

Kidd and Nash were more like 40 when they retired. When they were 34 they were still all-star level.

Andre Miller is another guy - he put up 13ppg and 7apg on 46% shooting for Portland when he was 34. Played at an extremely high level til he was 36, then became more of a crafty leadership back up type.

And yet Calderon remains un-tradable. Time to face reality, Calderon isn't bouncing back, he is only going to continue to decline and that's only if he doesn't get injured again which he most likely will. Nash and Kidd were both better players in their decline then Calderon ever was in his prime. Calderon in his decline is only more...declined

We all know that Nash was the better player. He's more aggressive offensively and he remained a ball dominant PG even late in his career, whereas Jose stopped being used as a ball dominant PG when he got to Dallas because of Ellis and in NY because of the Triangle. Because of this Jose saw his assists go down a lot given that he's not handling the ball for as much of his minutes as he once did. Jose also seems to have taken more 3's in Dallas as the off guard. Since that's the strongest part of his game it might be good to see him increase his 3pt attempts next season.

Nash seems to only start to fall off significantly at age 36 and 37, which is logical. I felt there was no need to include his LA seasons. It's doesn't seem impossible to think that Jose could bounce back somewhat next season if he remained healthy. This is the season we'll get the answer to whether Jose is aging faster than Nash did or if it was mostly due to the leg injuries. IMO since Jose never really was a guy who drew fouls, his main issue is being able to shoot the ball at the high efficiency he did in previous years.

Per 36 stats
Jose Calderon
Season	Age Tm   Pos  G  GS  MP   FG  FGA  FG%  3P  3PA  3P%  2P  2PA  2P%  FT  FTA  FT%  TRB  AST  STL  BLK  TOV  PF  PTS
2012-13	31  TOT	 PG   73 58  2160 5.2 10.6 .491 2.2 4.7  .461 3.0 5.9  .516 1.2 1.3  .900 2.9  8.6  1.0  0.1  2.1  1.6 13.8
2013-14	32  DAL	 PG   81 81  2468 5.0 10.9 .456 2.8 6.2  .449 2.2 4.7  .464 0.8 0.9  .825 2.8  5.5  1.0  0.2  1.5  2.0 13.5
2014-15	33  NYK	 PG   42 42  1270 4.2 10.0 .415 1.7 4.0  .415 2.5 6.0  .415 0.8	0.9  .906 3.5  5.6  0.9  0.0  2.1  2.2 10.8
Steve Nash
Season	Age Tm	 Pos  G  GS  MP   FG  FGA  FG%  3P  3PA  3P%  2P  2PA  2P%  FT  FTA  FT%  TRB  AST  STL  BLK  TOV  PF  PTS
2005-06 31  PHO  PG   79 79  2796 7.0 13.6 .512 1.9 4.4  .439 5.0 9.2  .548 3.3 3.6  .921 4.3  10.6 0.8  0.2  3.6  1.5 19.2
2006-07 32  PHO  PG   76 76  2682 6.9 13.0 .532 2.1 4.6  .455 4.8 8.4  .575 3.0 3.3  .899 3.6  11.9 0.8  0.1  3.9  1.6 19.0
2007-08 33  PHO  PG   81 81  2780 6.3 12.5 .504 2.3 4.9  .470 4.0 7.5  .527 2.9 3.2  .906 3.7  11.6 0.7  0.1  3.8  1.5 17.8
2008-09 34  PHO  PG   74 74  2484 6.2 12.3 .503 1.6 3.6  .439 4.6 8.8  .529 2.8 3.0  .933 3.2  10.4 0.8  0.1  3.6  1.6 16.8
2009-10 35  PHO	 PG   81 81  2660 6.8 13.3 .507 1.7 3.9  .426 5.1 9.4  .540 2.9 3.0  .938 3.6  12.1 0.6  0.2  4.0  1.5 18.0
2010-11	36  PHO	 PG   75 75  2497 5.8 11.7 .492 1.2 3.0  .395 4.6 8.7  .525 3.3 3.6  .912 3.7  12.3 0.7  0.1  3.8  1.3 15.9
2011-12 37  PHO	 PG   62 62  1961 5.4 10.2 .532 1.0 2.6  .390 4.4 7.6  .580 2.3 2.6  .894 3.4  12.2 0.7  0.1  4.2  1.0 14.2

Jose Calderon
2013-14 Rank 42 in Real Plus Minus amongst PG's
GP 42 MPG 30.5 ORPM 1.87 DRPM -3.56 RPM -1.69 WAR 1.02

Calderon scored more with the Mavericks but they still tried to hide him on the bench in crucial games

* PG Jose Calderon, Dallas was +6.6 points per 100 poss’s better on D when Calderon was OFF the court vs. when he was ON.

Jose Calderon
2014-15 Rank 76 in Real Plus Minus amongst PG's
GP 42 MPG 30.2 ORPM -1.27 DRPM -2.75 RPM -4.02 WAR -1.28

I find it hard to expect much from a Knicks team that has to rely on the 34 year version of Calderon hoping that he bounces back, stays healthy and can score enough to make it worth his defensive liability. Even if he can score, he puts so much pressure on the rest of the team having to rotate and help on defense. He sucks and he's getting suckier

nixluva wrote:

Rookie wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Rookie wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Rookie wrote:

Watching Jason Kidd trying to shoot 3's on dead legs was painful, but he was still a great floor general and had a knack for the big play when we needed it. I haven't ever seen Jose have that killer instinct or raise his game to the situation. Nash was crafty, almost like he could see what was going to happen before it did and he had license to dribble around all day long until he got defenses to bite. Jose's game is very predictable and the triangle makes him even more predictable. He is not athletic, makes lazy predictable passes. He can't stay in front of opposing guards and last year his body broke down and he couldn't shoot. Now, a year later he is supposed to stay healthy and bounce back. I would love to see that, but it is more likely last years Jose is this years Jose. I hope he can contribute, but he is never going to stay healthy for 82 games. The end of Nash's career was a disaster, he should have retired. Kidd knew he hung around one year to many. Jose is in the same boat. Not many PG's can be productive after age 34

Kidd and Nash were more like 40 when they retired. When they were 34 they were still all-star level.

Andre Miller is another guy - he put up 13ppg and 7apg on 46% shooting for Portland when he was 34. Played at an extremely high level til he was 36, then became more of a crafty leadership back up type.

And yet Calderon remains un-tradable. Time to face reality, Calderon isn't bouncing back, he is only going to continue to decline and that's only if he doesn't get injured again which he most likely will. Nash and Kidd were both better players in their decline then Calderon ever was in his prime. Calderon in his decline is only more...declined

We all know that Nash was the better player. He's more aggressive offensively and he remained a ball dominant PG even late in his career, whereas Jose stopped being used as a ball dominant PG when he got to Dallas because of Ellis and in NY because of the Triangle. Because of this Jose saw his assists go down a lot given that he's not handling the ball for as much of his minutes as he once did. Jose also seems to have taken more 3's in Dallas as the off guard. Since that's the strongest part of his game it might be good to see him increase his 3pt attempts next season.

Nash seems to only start to fall off significantly at age 36 and 37, which is logical. I felt there was no need to include his LA seasons. It's doesn't seem impossible to think that Jose could bounce back somewhat next season if he remained healthy. This is the season we'll get the answer to whether Jose is aging faster than Nash did or if it was mostly due to the leg injuries. IMO since Jose never really was a guy who drew fouls, his main issue is being able to shoot the ball at the high efficiency he did in previous years.

Per 36 stats
Jose Calderon
Season	Age Tm   Pos  G  GS  MP   FG  FGA  FG%  3P  3PA  3P%  2P  2PA  2P%  FT  FTA  FT%  TRB  AST  STL  BLK  TOV  PF  PTS
2012-13	31  TOT	 PG   73 58  2160 5.2 10.6 .491 2.2 4.7  .461 3.0 5.9  .516 1.2 1.3  .900 2.9  8.6  1.0  0.1  2.1  1.6 13.8
2013-14	32  DAL	 PG   81 81  2468 5.0 10.9 .456 2.8 6.2  .449 2.2 4.7  .464 0.8 0.9  .825 2.8  5.5  1.0  0.2  1.5  2.0 13.5
2014-15	33  NYK	 PG   42 42  1270 4.2 10.0 .415 1.7 4.0  .415 2.5 6.0  .415 0.8	0.9  .906 3.5  5.6  0.9  0.0  2.1  2.2 10.8
Steve Nash
Season	Age Tm	 Pos  G  GS  MP   FG  FGA  FG%  3P  3PA  3P%  2P  2PA  2P%  FT  FTA  FT%  TRB  AST  STL  BLK  TOV  PF  PTS
2005-06 31  PHO  PG   79 79  2796 7.0 13.6 .512 1.9 4.4  .439 5.0 9.2  .548 3.3 3.6  .921 4.3  10.6 0.8  0.2  3.6  1.5 19.2
2006-07 32  PHO  PG   76 76  2682 6.9 13.0 .532 2.1 4.6  .455 4.8 8.4  .575 3.0 3.3  .899 3.6  11.9 0.8  0.1  3.9  1.6 19.0
2007-08 33  PHO  PG   81 81  2780 6.3 12.5 .504 2.3 4.9  .470 4.0 7.5  .527 2.9 3.2  .906 3.7  11.6 0.7  0.1  3.8  1.5 17.8
2008-09 34  PHO  PG   74 74  2484 6.2 12.3 .503 1.6 3.6  .439 4.6 8.8  .529 2.8 3.0  .933 3.2  10.4 0.8  0.1  3.6  1.6 16.8
2009-10 35  PHO	 PG   81 81  2660 6.8 13.3 .507 1.7 3.9  .426 5.1 9.4  .540 2.9 3.0  .938 3.6  12.1 0.6  0.2  4.0  1.5 18.0
2010-11	36  PHO	 PG   75 75  2497 5.8 11.7 .492 1.2 3.0  .395 4.6 8.7  .525 3.3 3.6  .912 3.7  12.3 0.7  0.1  3.8  1.3 15.9
2011-12 37  PHO	 PG   62 62  1961 5.4 10.2 .532 1.0 2.6  .390 4.4 7.6  .580 2.3 2.6  .894 3.4  12.2 0.7  0.1  4.2  1.0 14.2

Jose Calderon
2013-14 Rank 42 in Real Plus Minus amongst PG's
GP 42 MPG 30.5 ORPM 1.87 DRPM -3.56 RPM -1.69 WAR 1.02

Calderon scored more with the Mavericks but they still tried to hide him on the bench in crucial games

* PG Jose Calderon, Dallas was +6.6 points per 100 poss’s better on D when Calderon was OFF the court vs. when he was ON.

Jose Calderon
2014-15 Rank 76 in Real Plus Minus amongst PG's
GP 42 MPG 30.2 ORPM -1.27 DRPM -2.75 RPM -4.02 WAR -1.28

I find it hard to expect much from a Knicks team that has to rely on the 34 year version of Calderon hoping that he bounces back, stays healthy and can score enough to make it worth his defensive liability. Even if he can score, he puts so much pressure on the rest of the team having to rotate and help on defense. He sucks and he's getting suckier

I think you have to take those stats with some frame of reference. When Jose was healthy he wasn't that bad. You have to remember that Jose is playing starter minutes against other starting PG's. It's literally the toughest position to defend. Some of the names on the list are not starters or logging the heavy minutes that Jose had logged. Look at the names of some of the other guards he was better than. It helps to put things in perspective. The comparison should be for PG's who logged starter minutes and also played a near full season as Jose did. It would be informative if they allowed that filter.

RK	NAME	        TEAM	GP	MPG	ORPM	DRPM	RPM	WAR
41	Steve Blake	GS/LAL	55	27.2	-1.31	-0.35	-1.66	0.67
42	Jose Calderon	DAL	81	30.5	1.87	-3.56	-1.69	1.02
43	Darren Collison	LAC	80	25.9	1.51	-3.23	-1.72	0.82
44	Dwight Buycks	TOR	14	10.4	-1.18	-0.67	-1.85	0.04
45	Ray McCallum	SAC	45	19.9	0.40	-2.32	-1.92	0.23
46	Ramon Sessions	MIL/CHA	83	26.7	0.90	-2.98	-2.08	0.37
47	Phil Pressey	BOS	75	15.1	-1.12	-1.17	-2.29	0.04
48	Ish Smith	PHX	70	14.4	-3.32	0.92	-2.40	-0.03
49	Shane Larkin	DAL	48	10.2	-1.45	-1.08	-2.53	-0.05
50	Mo Williams	POR	74	24.8	0.21	-2.94	-2.73	-0.43
51	Jerryd Bayless	BOS/MEM	72	23.4	0.84	-3.68	-2.84	-0.50
52	Ronnie Price	ORL	31	12.2	-3.09	0.21	-2.88	-0.12
53	Michael C.W.	PHI	70	34.5	-0.95	-2.10	-3.05	-1.11
54	Norris Cole	MIA	82	24.6	-1.32	-1.74	-3.06	-0.84
55	Aaron Brooks	DEN/HOU	72	21.6	0.70	-3.84	-3.14	-0.79
56	Brandon Knight	MIL	72	33.3	-1.20	-1.98	-3.18	-1.21
57	Jarrett Jack	CLE	80	28.2	-1.59	-1.61	-3.20	-1.16
58	J.J. Barea	MIN	79	18.6	-1.90	-1.33	-3.23	-0.81
59	Jorge Gutierrez	BKN	15	16.3	-2.15	-1.42	-3.57	-0.18
60	Cory Joseph	SA	68	13.8	-0.74	-2.94	-3.68	-0.78
61	Brian Roberts	NO	72	23.2	-1.45	-2.33	-3.78	-1.45
62	D.J. Augustin	CHI/TOR	71	27.3	0.03	-3.88	-3.85	-1.70
63	Brandon Jennings DET	80	34.1	0.39	-4.37	-3.98	-2.82
64	John Lucas III	UTAH	42	14.1	-2.38	-1.75	-4.13	-0.64
65	Isaiah Canaan	HOU	22	11.5	-1.25	-3.06	-4.31	-0.33
66	Gary Neal	MIL/CHA	52	21.4	0.49	-4.92	-4.43	-1.40
67	Jimmer Fredette	CHI/SAC	49	10.6	0.64	-5.64	-5.00	-0.84
68	Will Bynum	DET	56	18.8	-1.67	-3.57	-5.24	-1.93
69	Donald Sloan	IND	48	8.2	-3.85	-3.90	-7.75	-1.25
70	Dennis Schroder	ATL	49	13.1	-3.28	-5.02	-8.30	-2.35

I'm not sure exactly what you mean. If the list had only starters or players playing starters minutes, Jose would still be at the bottom even when healthy as he was in 2013-14 in the stat chart above. Last season he was ranked 76th out of 82 and every single starter or player who played starters minutes in the NBA was better.

Incidentally, Tony Parker had a very similar season to Jose's last year. He is also near the bottom of the list having dealt with hamstring issues all season long and then the achiles. Sucks getting old, the body starts to break down. If you read the things Parker is saying, he knows that he isn't the same player anymore and will have to defer more to other players. That said, if he can't break down defenses, score and orchestrate, his poor defense will make him a minus player and it will hurt San Antonio's chances of a deep run in the playoffs this season just like it killed their chances of advancing from the first round last season.

nixluva wrote:

Rookie wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Rookie wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Rookie wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Rookie wrote:

Watching Jason Kidd trying to shoot 3's on dead legs was painful, but he was still a great floor general and had a knack for the big play when we needed it. I haven't ever seen Jose have that killer instinct or raise his game to the situation. Nash was crafty, almost like he could see what was going to happen before it did and he had license to dribble around all day long until he got defenses to bite. Jose's game is very predictable and the triangle makes him even more predictable. He is not athletic, makes lazy predictable passes. He can't stay in front of opposing guards and last year his body broke down and he couldn't shoot. Now, a year later he is supposed to stay healthy and bounce back. I would love to see that, but it is more likely last years Jose is this years Jose. I hope he can contribute, but he is never going to stay healthy for 82 games. The end of Nash's career was a disaster, he should have retired. Kidd knew he hung around one year to many. Jose is in the same boat. Not many PG's can be productive after age 34

Kidd and Nash were more like 40 when they retired. When they were 34 they were still all-star level.

Andre Miller is another guy - he put up 13ppg and 7apg on 46% shooting for Portland when he was 34. Played at an extremely high level til he was 36, then became more of a crafty leadership back up type.

And yet Calderon remains un-tradable. Time to face reality, Calderon isn't bouncing back, he is only going to continue to decline and that's only if he doesn't get injured again which he most likely will. Nash and Kidd were both better players in their decline then Calderon ever was in his prime. Calderon in his decline is only more...declined

We all know that Nash was the better player. He's more aggressive offensively and he remained a ball dominant PG even late in his career, whereas Jose stopped being used as a ball dominant PG when he got to Dallas because of Ellis and in NY because of the Triangle. Because of this Jose saw his assists go down a lot given that he's not handling the ball for as much of his minutes as he once did. Jose also seems to have taken more 3's in Dallas as the off guard. Since that's the strongest part of his game it might be good to see him increase his 3pt attempts next season.

Nash seems to only start to fall off significantly at age 36 and 37, which is logical. I felt there was no need to include his LA seasons. It's doesn't seem impossible to think that Jose could bounce back somewhat next season if he remained healthy. This is the season we'll get the answer to whether Jose is aging faster than Nash did or if it was mostly due to the leg injuries. IMO since Jose never really was a guy who drew fouls, his main issue is being able to shoot the ball at the high efficiency he did in previous years.

Per 36 stats
Jose Calderon
Season	Age Tm   Pos  G  GS  MP   FG  FGA  FG%  3P  3PA  3P%  2P  2PA  2P%  FT  FTA  FT%  TRB  AST  STL  BLK  TOV  PF  PTS
2012-13	31  TOT	 PG   73 58  2160 5.2 10.6 .491 2.2 4.7  .461 3.0 5.9  .516 1.2 1.3  .900 2.9  8.6  1.0  0.1  2.1  1.6 13.8
2013-14	32  DAL	 PG   81 81  2468 5.0 10.9 .456 2.8 6.2  .449 2.2 4.7  .464 0.8 0.9  .825 2.8  5.5  1.0  0.2  1.5  2.0 13.5
2014-15	33  NYK	 PG   42 42  1270 4.2 10.0 .415 1.7 4.0  .415 2.5 6.0  .415 0.8	0.9  .906 3.5  5.6  0.9  0.0  2.1  2.2 10.8
Steve Nash
Season	Age Tm	 Pos  G  GS  MP   FG  FGA  FG%  3P  3PA  3P%  2P  2PA  2P%  FT  FTA  FT%  TRB  AST  STL  BLK  TOV  PF  PTS
2005-06 31  PHO  PG   79 79  2796 7.0 13.6 .512 1.9 4.4  .439 5.0 9.2  .548 3.3 3.6  .921 4.3  10.6 0.8  0.2  3.6  1.5 19.2
2006-07 32  PHO  PG   76 76  2682 6.9 13.0 .532 2.1 4.6  .455 4.8 8.4  .575 3.0 3.3  .899 3.6  11.9 0.8  0.1  3.9  1.6 19.0
2007-08 33  PHO  PG   81 81  2780 6.3 12.5 .504 2.3 4.9  .470 4.0 7.5  .527 2.9 3.2  .906 3.7  11.6 0.7  0.1  3.8  1.5 17.8
2008-09 34  PHO  PG   74 74  2484 6.2 12.3 .503 1.6 3.6  .439 4.6 8.8  .529 2.8 3.0  .933 3.2  10.4 0.8  0.1  3.6  1.6 16.8
2009-10 35  PHO	 PG   81 81  2660 6.8 13.3 .507 1.7 3.9  .426 5.1 9.4  .540 2.9 3.0  .938 3.6  12.1 0.6  0.2  4.0  1.5 18.0
2010-11	36  PHO	 PG   75 75  2497 5.8 11.7 .492 1.2 3.0  .395 4.6 8.7  .525 3.3 3.6  .912 3.7  12.3 0.7  0.1  3.8  1.3 15.9
2011-12 37  PHO	 PG   62 62  1961 5.4 10.2 .532 1.0 2.6  .390 4.4 7.6  .580 2.3 2.6  .894 3.4  12.2 0.7  0.1  4.2  1.0 14.2

Jose Calderon
2013-14 Rank 42 in Real Plus Minus amongst PG's
GP 42 MPG 30.5 ORPM 1.87 DRPM -3.56 RPM -1.69 WAR 1.02

Calderon scored more with the Mavericks but they still tried to hide him on the bench in crucial games

* PG Jose Calderon, Dallas was +6.6 points per 100 poss’s better on D when Calderon was OFF the court vs. when he was ON.

Jose Calderon
2014-15 Rank 76 in Real Plus Minus amongst PG's
GP 42 MPG 30.2 ORPM -1.27 DRPM -2.75 RPM -4.02 WAR -1.28

I find it hard to expect much from a Knicks team that has to rely on the 34 year version of Calderon hoping that he bounces back, stays healthy and can score enough to make it worth his defensive liability. Even if he can score, he puts so much pressure on the rest of the team having to rotate and help on defense. He sucks and he's getting suckier

I think you have to take those stats with some frame of reference. When Jose was healthy he wasn't that bad. You have to remember that Jose is playing starter minutes against other starting PG's. It's literally the toughest position to defend. Some of the names on the list are not starters or logging the heavy minutes that Jose had logged. Look at the names of some of the other guards he was better than. It helps to put things in perspective. The comparison should be for PG's who logged starter minutes and also played a near full season as Jose did. It would be informative if they allowed that filter.

RK	NAME	        TEAM	GP	MPG	ORPM	DRPM	RPM	WAR
41	Steve Blake	GS/LAL	55	27.2	-1.31	-0.35	-1.66	0.67
42	Jose Calderon	DAL	81	30.5	1.87	-3.56	-1.69	1.02
43	Darren Collison	LAC	80	25.9	1.51	-3.23	-1.72	0.82
44	Dwight Buycks	TOR	14	10.4	-1.18	-0.67	-1.85	0.04
45	Ray McCallum	SAC	45	19.9	0.40	-2.32	-1.92	0.23
46	Ramon Sessions	MIL/CHA	83	26.7	0.90	-2.98	-2.08	0.37
47	Phil Pressey	BOS	75	15.1	-1.12	-1.17	-2.29	0.04
48	Ish Smith	PHX	70	14.4	-3.32	0.92	-2.40	-0.03
49	Shane Larkin	DAL	48	10.2	-1.45	-1.08	-2.53	-0.05
50	Mo Williams	POR	74	24.8	0.21	-2.94	-2.73	-0.43
51	Jerryd Bayless	BOS/MEM	72	23.4	0.84	-3.68	-2.84	-0.50
52	Ronnie Price	ORL	31	12.2	-3.09	0.21	-2.88	-0.12
53	Michael C.W.	PHI	70	34.5	-0.95	-2.10	-3.05	-1.11
54	Norris Cole	MIA	82	24.6	-1.32	-1.74	-3.06	-0.84
55	Aaron Brooks	DEN/HOU	72	21.6	0.70	-3.84	-3.14	-0.79
56	Brandon Knight	MIL	72	33.3	-1.20	-1.98	-3.18	-1.21
57	Jarrett Jack	CLE	80	28.2	-1.59	-1.61	-3.20	-1.16
58	J.J. Barea	MIN	79	18.6	-1.90	-1.33	-3.23	-0.81
59	Jorge Gutierrez	BKN	15	16.3	-2.15	-1.42	-3.57	-0.18
60	Cory Joseph	SA	68	13.8	-0.74	-2.94	-3.68	-0.78
61	Brian Roberts	NO	72	23.2	-1.45	-2.33	-3.78	-1.45
62	D.J. Augustin	CHI/TOR	71	27.3	0.03	-3.88	-3.85	-1.70
63	Brandon Jennings DET	80	34.1	0.39	-4.37	-3.98	-2.82
64	John Lucas III	UTAH	42	14.1	-2.38	-1.75	-4.13	-0.64
65	Isaiah Canaan	HOU	22	11.5	-1.25	-3.06	-4.31	-0.33
66	Gary Neal	MIL/CHA	52	21.4	0.49	-4.92	-4.43	-1.40
67	Jimmer Fredette	CHI/SAC	49	10.6	0.64	-5.64	-5.00	-0.84
68	Will Bynum	DET	56	18.8	-1.67	-3.57	-5.24	-1.93
69	Donald Sloan	IND	48	8.2	-3.85	-3.90	-7.75	-1.25
70	Dennis Schroder	ATL	49	13.1	-3.28	-5.02	-8.30	-2.35

I'm not sure exactly what you mean. If the list had only starters or players playing starters minutes, Jose would still be at the bottom even when healthy as he was in 2013-14 in the stat chart above. Last season he was ranked 76th out of 82 and every single starter or player who played starters minutes in the NBA was better.

I was referring to when he was healthy the year before. When he was healthy he wasn't as bad you were making him seem. I don't believe he was really #42 when you take all factors into account. The list includes a few guys who played less prominent roles and likely weren't facing the other team's starting PG. Some of the guards ahead of him also didn't play a full season. Starting, MPG and Games played does matter since you are going to wear down and be more exposed playing as a starter for a full season versus some guy that is playing off the bench or less games. As one of the older slower guards what he did was pretty impressive.

If you removed the non starter and lower minute and games guys, it would be a bit more fair to compare over the course of an entire season. Not to mention that Jose was in the Western Conference facing some really stiff competition every night. It doesn't do him justice to reference that he was #42 on that list if you don't put other factors in perspective. Last year he was injured for much of the season and even when he was playing it's not sure how healthy he was. All i'm saying is that there's at least some hope for a better season if he's healthy and perhaps logs fewer minutes now that Jerian is here.

In other sports, I think they call this handicapping. It helps each participant have an equal chance at winning. I totally agree with your last sentence, I'm just skeptical that at 34 Calderon can stay healthy, also that he is in further decline because of his age. Lets just hope he can still shoot for a high %

knickscity wrote:Calderon was terrible last year, unless he's still injured it's rather obvious he'll be better. But will he be a productive player? I doubt it.

is it fair to judge him just on last year?

knickscity wrote:

mreinman wrote:

knickscity wrote:Calderon was terrible last year, unless he's still injured it's rather obvious he'll be better. But will he be a productive player? I doubt it.

is it fair to judge him just on last year?

he had an achilles injury and he's old. Are you expecting him to return to his prime?

mreinman wrote:

knickscity wrote:

mreinman wrote:

knickscity wrote:Calderon was terrible last year, unless he's still injured it's rather obvious he'll be better. But will he be a productive player? I doubt it.

is it fair to judge him just on last year?

he had an achilles injury and he's old. Are you expecting him to return to his prime?

No but I am expecting him to return and be the efficient player that he is. Not this broken player that was playing in a horribly broken system/players.