SupremeCommander wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nychamp wrote:

dk7th wrote:

BigSm00th wrote:1. New York - Carmelo
2. Toronto - Demarre Carroll
3. Brooklyn - Joe Johnson
4. Boston - Jae Crowder
5. Philly - whoever they start at SF

Fact or fiction - Carmelo is the best player in the Atlantic division. i say fact. something to keep in mind when you read the Knicks 25-win projections.

he is much closer to a zero-sum player when you consider he is an abomination on defense.

Calling Melo an "abomination" on defense is not reasonable or fair. He is often a lazy defender, and frequently disappoints, especially given that you see him play active and capable defense on occasion. He has the skill but doesn't bring it with any consistency.

David Lee and Tim Hardaway jr could fairly be characterized as "abominations". Clueless, incapable and unmotivated on the defensive end.

he defensive footwork is awful-- he plays defense with his arms and hands, and he has terrible court awareness, ie clueless. he is never in a crouching position and as a result his center of gravity is too high, making him off balance and therefore he often gets beat. i think that pretty much covers his technique, and we don't need to address his lack of conditioning, which worsens as the season progresses, or his lack of heart.

when was the last time he made a clutch defensive play?

He has won player of the month in April twice as a knick. How can that happen if his conditioning worsens during the season?

lets see how much you really know by addressing the points i made instead of changing the focus to awards and whatnot. any other type of response just cements the impression of all hat no cattle.

Screw that. How can you explain a guy stepping up in April to get his team into the playoffs or to get them a better seeding when all of his teammates are hurt and he wins player of the month. You post the same stuff all the time. How does a guy up his play in April if his conditioning declines as the season goes on as you claim. Back up your claim.

translation: "i don't own any cattle but please look at my hat."

So we agree that Anthony's conditioning doesn't decline as the season goes on and that he out performed his peers in the final month of an 82 game season two consecutive years. If you disagree please provide the evidence to back your claim.

i believe the ball remains in your court. here's the breakdown thus far:

1)i made assertions about his terrible defensive technique and i concluded, clearly as an afterthought, that we don't need to address his lack of conditioning as this is not the crux of my point
2)you ask, nonetheless, how can he lack conditioning if he is winning player of the month-- which, again, is clearly not the crux of my point... but you knew that didn't you... unless you are that stupid
3)i again ask you to address my assertions about his defense and then
4)you say back up your claim about his lack of conditioning, trying to reverse the order of things... if you're not that stupid then maybe you are just a bitch playing games again for the umpteenth time. hilarious

if you are serious about having a dialogue then these tactics of yours have got to go.

Look. This isn't complicated. You said this,

we don't need to address his lack of conditioning, which worsens as the season progresses, or his lack of heart.

You can't bury it. Please explain how a guy wins player of the month in April for two consecutive years if his conditioning worsens as the season goes on.

good luck getting a straight answer

ChuckBuck wrote:

SwishAndDish13 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

SwishAndDish13 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

BigSm00th wrote:1. New York - Carmelo
2. Toronto - Demarre Carroll
3. Brooklyn - Joe Johnson
4. Boston - Jae Crowder
5. Philly - whoever they start at SF

Fact or fiction - Carmelo is the best player in the Atlantic division. i say fact. something to keep in mind when you read the Knicks 25-win projections.

What does this even mean for win projections? Demarcus Cousins has been the best all around center in the Pacific division for a few years already and they won 29 games only.

Very poor argument. dk7th's absolutely right, Melo is a zero sum player. Doesn't bring it when you need it.

This.

Blunt and brutally yet beautifully honest

Too bad I wasn't able to get the pic of the no call later in that same quarter on Hibbert when he punched Melo in the face on a dunk attempt. Woulda been a possible flagrant for some other players in the league. The selective memory in here and hatred for the team's best player is ridiculous.

Selective excuse making.

Just call a spade a spade, it'll help your Knick fandom in the long run.

Root for KP and Jerian instead to grow into true stars, not this fake one way playing 3rd tier star.

I root for the team even players I dislike such as Amare when he was here. That's being a fan. You rooting against their best player is strange honestly. You are the one who needs help being a fan. I wish you all the best with your sanity and internet trolling.

There's a difference between rooting for the team, and being critical of players that deserve it.

I'm guessing you were clapping and cheering when Melo got rejected by Hibbert's game changing block? Awesome effort Melo! Get them next time!

Difference with being a homer cheerleader and a fan that sees things clearly for what they are.

Derrick Williams would have posterized Hibbert on that play

yellowboy90 wrote:

Poor example. Meaningless game probably in the regular season.

Not high pressure in the moment like the Hibbert game and series deciding block.

TripleThreat wrote:

holfresh wrote:Melo was NBA player of the month, November of 2009, April 2012, April,2013, January 2014..Logged the most minutes in the NBA one of those years..I don't care to look...How is a player out of shape and manages to win player of the month at different intervals of the year and more importantly, at the end of the year, April, twice???...Playing at your best ability and above other NBA players requires being in tip top shape..This is why dk7 can't be taken seriously...

If you only play one side of the ball ( offense ), are not held accountable for the type of shots you take and how many ( poor shot selection/green light to shotjack ), while playing in a weakened Eastern Conference, and playing in a division where one team is openly tanking to the point where the league is discussing changing all the lottery rules ( Philly), another was clearly tanking out too ( Boston), another is a zero point destination for free agent help ( Toronto) and the last was relentlessly broken by a Russian gangster.

Player Of the Week/Player Of the Month usually denotes offensive pedigree and success. It's an INDIVIDUAL AWARD. Why should that surprise anyone. Melo is a lethal 1 vs 1 isolation gunner. He should be winning some of those awards. Esp while most of the rest of the league at the back end of the season is either 1) Openly tanking as hard as possible or 2) Playoff grade teams are often resting/limiting their core rotation to save them for the playoffs.

Melo plays in the weakest division, in the weakest conference, against mostly teams not even trying and only playing one side of the ball.

What LeBron James has done the past few years, playing both sides of the ball, at a high level, at heavy usage, under high pressure. That's a true test of a player's conditioning.

Here's the most pathetic thing about Melo's Don't Try/Don't Care/So What/Screw You/What About My Branding lousy defense - As an NBA "Superstar" that the league actively markets around, he is informally rated for free contact. If you are one of the NBA's "stars", the league and the game is not built to have you foul out on defense. People pay big money to see big names taking big shots in the 4th quarter. That Melo could get away with more contact with refs turning the other way, and still is a lousy defender, boggles the mind. If Melo actually tried and committed to defense, his impact on the ENTIRE TEAM WINNING would be exponential.

Player of the Week/Month is an INDIVIDUAL AWARD.

Players who want to be franchise cores and the Alpha Dog of their teams are JUDGED BY HOW THEY HELP THEIR TEAM WIN CONSISTENTLY AND MAKE THE PLAYERS AROUND THEM BETTER.

I doubt you are capable of having a rational dialogue about Melo but here goes..Of course player of the month is an individual award, much like MVP is an individual award..The point is that that award could not be achieved if he was not in shape..I won't argue the point that Melo isn't always committed on defense...I would however argue he is a poor defender..He isn't a poor defender..He is actually a good one on one defender but a poor help defender..He isn't always committed to stopping the other team from scoring...All true..

Where I have problems is when you compare him to LeBron and others..LeBron is a better player that Melo, period..But we shouldn't hold this against Melo..Not everyone can be LeBron..It seems the fact that LeBron is playing with 2 to 3 all stars for most of his career have no baring on your evaluation of team results when comparing the two...Have Carmelo ever played with one all star caliber player..Has he ever played with anyone as good as Bosh??And Chandler should never be an all star...

My only hope when we traded for Melo is to see him play with another player, another all star, that can take the scoring load off him..Just to have another player to take the ball out of his hands..It will never happen as a Knick..Our front office have been and continues to be inept..I have seriously never seen anything like this organization..I'm truly amazed..We couldn't get one player to help Ewing offensively and can't get another player next to Melo despite having cap space...I get the fact that it's time for him to move on..

One of your many claims is that Melo excelled against a weakened Eastern Conference..He is putting up the same numbers in NY that he was putting up in Denver..He took his team to the WCF in Denver..So I have no doubt he can go deep into the playoffs..Basketball is a TEAM game..Some how, many of you think that Melo should be good enough to do it all on his own...

ChuckBuck wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Poor example. Meaningless game probably in the regular season.

Not high pressure in the moment like the Hibbert game and series deciding block.

So, you do not care how a player plays throughout the season so if he doesn't play defense until the end of the season or the playoffs you are okay with that? Good to now.

ChuckBuck wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Poor example. Meaningless game probably in the regular season.

Not high pressure in the moment like the Hibbert game and series deciding block.

So, you do not care how a player plays throughout the season so if he doesn't play defense until the end of the season or the playoffs you are okay with that? Good to now.

Big difference with a 1 - 82 game on the schedule. Even the great ones lose from time to time. One block from game 37 or whatever is meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

Playoff basketball is more magnified though. 2nd round, Knicks trailing 3 games to 2, pretty much a elimination game.

Don't let reality cloud your biased judgement though:

Atleast show a clean block and not a foul. Anyway, its was an elimination game but so was game 5 when he lead the team to victory.

Carmelo has performed less than expected but that does not mean he is a zero sum player despite the images you post.

BigSm00th wrote:1. New York - Carmelo
2. Toronto - Demarre Carroll
3. Brooklyn - Joe Johnson
4. Boston - Jae Crowder
5. Philly - whoever they start at SF

Fact or fiction - Carmelo is the best player in the Atlantic division. i say fact. something to keep in mind when you read the Knicks 25-win projections.

1- Carmelo Anthony

2- DeMaRRe Carroll

3- Jae Crowder
though will be splitting time with multiple other players from 3 guards to other F's, with forward through trades the past year
Evan Turner *with all the guards, G/F's, they will be running multiple 3 guard sets*

ALL PAYED at MINIMUM, in addition to having the rights of Euro Star, Dario Saric
4- Philly with Covington, as the best scorer/shooter of the bench to play SF and can play SG and PF in addition to SF, locked in to 3 more years at basically the minimum at $1,000,000, $1,015,696, and $1,087,745
Then with Jakarr Samspon as their best VERSATILE defender to defend SG - PF like Aminu who just signed a 4year deal at about 7-8m per year with Portland
And Jerami Grant, which is Jerian Grant's younger brother is a mix of both OFF and DEFENSE, all 3 SF's have versatility and are GREAT CAP FRIENDLY contracts at the minimum, that has much room for growth

5- Joe Johnson
Bojan Bogdanovic/Sergey Karasev
Rondae Hollis-Jefferson *rookie with a high ceiling for DEFENSE*
Earl Clark/Thaddeus Young SF/PF's
Like Celtics, could run many 3 guard sets that they could run with

DK, with so many responses in THIS THREAD, why not list your top 5 of the SF's in the Atlantic Division?
Put CA wherever you feel he is ranked along with the other SF's in the division

Regardless of what others may think, it is YOUR OPINION, and I would like to see how your rank the SF's.....

Celtics SNEAKED in the playoffs last season, however, with 0 SUPERSTAR's it is tough to win, while they are extremely DEEP, they have many cap friendly talents, future draft picks, and YOUNG talents that are in their current rookie contracts

PG's
from Marcus Smart/Isiah Thomas *Isiah Thomas is a very under rated PG* Rozier *rookie, that will have much to learn from Isiah Thomas and how to take higher quality shots and mix it up with creating for the team as a PG*

SG's
Avery Bradley, RJ Hunter *rookie*, James Young, *2nd year player*,

SF's
Jae Crowder *who plays SF and SF/PF like James Johnson but can also play SG*

Evan Turner *will be playing some point/forward and could play PG, SG, and SF* Turner's strength is his ability to play only with the ball and largely ineffective playing OFF the BALL like Lance Stephenson
Turner is an expiring contract that played well for Boston last year, especially when they needed him most the get in the play offs as the STARTING PG
AT $3,425,510, he is certainly a player to consider trading for that is unlikely to be part of future of The Celtics in a trade for New York with our lack of play makers and players that could penetrate with his ability to play PG/SG and some SF, especially at the trade deadline with Lou Amundson/Lance Thomas and the 150% rule, with a future 2nd rounder at best if we are in contention of fighting for a play off spot, if not we do not use a 2nd rounder on him and only help Celtics save money with a cheaper contract

SF/PF
Jonas Jerebko and Gigi Datomi *if they resign him but are unlikely to do so that is another shooter with the lack of roster spots they have with young mediocre talent*
Perry Jones

PF/C
David Lee plays some point forward as he did with GS especially with Mark Jackson as he can initiate the OFFENSE through POST UP, Finishes with both hands with his ambidextrous skills, and his HIGH BB IQ and ability to facilitate especially when Mark Jackson utilized him and is a great finisher/rebounder for the PnR

There are other PF/C's that makes Boston very deep however, none has the point forward abilities that David Lee has with Amir Johnson/Sullinger *both are capable of hitting the 3pt shot if uncontested, Jordan Mickey *rookie*, and Tyler Zeller and Kelly Olynicks *as a stretch 4/5*

BKLYN's Depth
=====================

BKLYN tried to build a contending team with Deron Williams, Pierce, Joe Johnson, KG, and Lopez, and Failed but I give them the credit for TRYING and quickly realizing it wasn't going to work and quickly GOT many young pieces to develop with the vet min and undrafted talents

In a sense they tried to do what we did for over 1 decade and have quickly changed their young approach vs OLD VETS

Jarrett Jack
Shane Larkin
Ryan Boatright

SG Rondae Hollis-Jefferson
Markel Brown
Wayne Ellington

SF Joe Johnson

Bojan Bogdanovic
Sergey Karasev

Juan Vaulet

Quincy Miller (may be released) and has great length/athleticism to play multiple positions and is young that we can sign to an non guaranteed deal that is likely to be released

Jarrett Jack (next year salary is not fully guaranteed, not sure how much is guaranteed) but with our need for play makers for OFF and DEF, he would fill a role that JR Smith filled while at his best, but as a LEGIT PG and SG that could defend some SF's as well, with our weakness being lack of play makers and penetration and facilitating consistently as a stoppage role
And Target Westbrook when he becomes a UFA, possibly trade for him IF he forces his way to NYK's while giving us leverage like CA was suppose to do

Though NO ONE is GREAT here, there are many serviceable talents on this roster

While Evan Turner is an expiring

At the trading Deadline, would like to part away from our VETERANS with Lou Amundson and Lance Thomas, at least ONE OF THEM
Would have helped if we made their salaries not fully guaranteed, especially with Lou Amundson

No Draft Picks, swap of 2nd rounders at best, basically for teams to save money and to do "WHAT IS RIGHT for the player/agent like we did with Pablo/STAT/JR Smith and Iman...
Outside of a trade for a bunch of talents with Philly on like Wroten/Covington/Sampson or Grant and in return we get back MANY future 2nd rounders as well, as they simply can not use majority of these picks with a protected 1st rounder in the trading deadline, maybe on draft night, depending on how Wroten looks and recovers, and if we can sign him to a cap friendly contract or not

Toronto, With the depth of Toronto, I would LOVE to add James Johnson who would be a lock down defender that we lack at SF/PF that we can use on Lebron and such talents that play PF as a BIG SF with Guard skills and a PF strength/size
I think he simply elevates our DEFENSE and the culture we want to have with TOUGHNESS, much better than Lance Thomas and could be signed to a cap friendly deal moving forward with his early bird rights
They simply believe they NEEDED to improve their ENTIRE DEFENSIVE roster and not sure if James Johnson is on their future plans or not, but if not i would LOVE to acquire him, as an under rated defender with versatility, he BLOCKED the most shots for a SF with some steals for the minutes he played....

Bklyn - Jarrett Jack or one of their SG/SF's

Boston - Evan Turner, Jae Crowder, David Lee and Isiah Thomas

Philly - Tony Wroten, Covington/Jakarr Sampson/Grant/Hollis Thompson