WaltLongmire wrote:Watch to see if Anthony is a "system breaker" in pre-season and in the early part of the regular season.

If he is still playing the same ISO stuff he is known for, and doesn't seem to be in sync with the rest of the team, especially if everyone else seems to be doing what Fisher wants them to do, it might be that Anthony is sending a message to the team that he wants out.

Everyone who was with Anthony under Woodson is gone from the team. I've pointed this out a number of times- this purging changed the power structure on the team- Fisher now has a chance to compete with Anthony to be the "leader" on the team, since Anthony's crew is gone. It has also been a not so subtle message to Carmelo, and anyone else, that if they don't buy into the system there will be repercussions.

Anthony also isolated himself from our incoming FAs by not reaching out to them. I'm also pretty certain that Phil thoroughly screened the FAs we signed told them what the team wants to do on offense. The returning vets are well versed in the triangle, and Fisher coaching our draftees in SL cemented his leadership role with them. With all of this in place, Fisher has a chance to take over the team and run it the way he wants to.

Hopefully Carmelo finally buys into what Phil/Fish are trying to do, but if he doesn't, maybe he does get moved at some point.

spot on

If his value is enhanced it makes it easier to trade him if this is what what he wants.

I can hope for a scenario that is mutual beneficial that he is part of a young team growing and making progress but knicks are also made an offer that suites both him and Melo!! Performance and being a good team guy makes for a better outcome. If healthy he will have some great games and his numbers will be there. Not contending team would want a sulking iso hogging Melo anyway!

Im optomistic a good outcome can be had by all even if traded!!! Phil will do whats right by the franchise but it not be a negative for melo or the team to do so.

Nalod wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

TheGame wrote:The knicks should look to trade Melo if the right deal presents itself. Even if KP and Grant are the real deal, it will probably be two years before they are ready to compete for a championship. If we could move Melo for a solid young starter and draft picks, that might be the best move longterm.

Nothing can be done unless Melo wants to be traded and if he did want to be traded he would need to give a list of teams that he would want to be traded to and I don't see that list being the Lakers and Celtics cause Lakers are rebuilding so he might as well stay in New York and the Celtics are in Boston where I have a feeling isn't somewhere he would want to be living/playing but I would love for them to be on his list cause they have a ton of draft picks and young talent. So let's make a list of teams where we think he'd accept a trade.
I'll start with some teams that seem like locks:
Chicago---we already know he was close to going there.
LA Clippers
Washington---definitely a ?
Where else do you guys think he'd want to go play??

Knicks trade Melo to Chicago

Knicks receive Markief Morris Bobby Portis Eric Bledsoe and a #1 pick from Chicago in either 2016 or 2017

Phoenix gets Taj Gibson Nikola Mirotic Doug Mcdermott

Not feeling that. Knicks need a bit of a starphuch in return or some fire power.

Could be nalod. It just shows how you can structure 3-4 team deals that might be able to get a nice deal for us. Id like to have both those Brooklyn picks but the deal would have to send a great player or players to Boston that aren't named Carmelo. We would need a young player who can "play now" as well. I dont think that melo will be traded--I dont think we spent the offseason going that route. However our lack of team speed especially on defense and lack of offensive penetrating abilities is going to be a big time Achilles heel. I could also question our rebounding both from the frontcourt and back. Im not sure keeping Melo is in our best interests--we have 0 chance to beat Clev and Im very sure we are not a top 6 team--so whats the point?

BRIGGS wrote:

Nalod wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

TheGame wrote:The knicks should look to trade Melo if the right deal presents itself. Even if KP and Grant are the real deal, it will probably be two years before they are ready to compete for a championship. If we could move Melo for a solid young starter and draft picks, that might be the best move longterm.

Nothing can be done unless Melo wants to be traded and if he did want to be traded he would need to give a list of teams that he would want to be traded to and I don't see that list being the Lakers and Celtics cause Lakers are rebuilding so he might as well stay in New York and the Celtics are in Boston where I have a feeling isn't somewhere he would want to be living/playing but I would love for them to be on his list cause they have a ton of draft picks and young talent. So let's make a list of teams where we think he'd accept a trade.
I'll start with some teams that seem like locks:
Chicago---we already know he was close to going there.
LA Clippers
Washington---definitely a ?
Where else do you guys think he'd want to go play??

Knicks trade Melo to Chicago

Knicks receive Markief Morris Bobby Portis Eric Bledsoe and a #1 pick from Chicago in either 2016 or 2017

Phoenix gets Taj Gibson Nikola Mirotic Doug Mcdermott

Not feeling that. Knicks need a bit of a starphuch in return or some fire power.

Could be nalod. It just shows how you can structure 3-4 team deals that might be able to get a nice deal for us. Id like to have both those Brooklyn picks but the deal would have to send a great player or players to Boston that aren't named Carmelo. We would need a young player who can "play now" as well. I dont think that melo will be traded--I dont think we spent the offseason going that route. However our lack of team speed especially on defense and lack of offensive penetrating abilities is going to be a big time Achilles heel. I could also question our rebounding both from the frontcourt and back. Im not sure keeping Melo is in our best interests--we have 0 chance to beat Clev and Im very sure we are not a top 6 team--so whats the point?

I agree, and perhaps in time and in the right place the proper deal presents itself. I have no illusion other than improved in many way we are even close to contention but my take is there is room for the knicks to move ahead let some players fall into roles they are comfortable. Calderon and Melo can play major roles in this team and perhaps makes them more marketable to teams whose ambitions are closer to be realized than ours. Out west there is an arms race and not doubt moves will need to be made.

No, we are not a top 6 team but we need not try to correct everything at this moment as it nearly impossible to do, nor opportune.

For example clippers might come to realize that Griff for Melo is their biggest chance despite the defensive capacity of Griffith should Stephanson become a good defender in that team scheme. Just an example folks! This is something that is not going to happen this summer. A healthy and team oriented Melo is obviously more attractive to knicks, potential suiters and his brand.
Its why I think Melo is a willing participant and unless he is fundamentally incapable of changing, should be in synch with the Triangle.

gunsnewing wrote:I've never been of the belief that you can change a player like Melo and his play last year sealed the deal for me. Constantly ignoring he triangle and trying to get his which is all he knows. He just doesn't have the basketball IQ to make plays for others. He is only comfortable with the ball in his hands with the intent on trying to score. The lack of basketball IQ worked it worked in college because he was by far the best player on the floor but it doesn't work in the NBA. Only way he will sniff a ring is as a Robin to someone's Batman. Guys like Jordan, Kobe, Lebron and Wade put up a ton of shots but they let the game come to them and can adjust to the defense and make plays for others.

Also Melo is a lazy defender and chooses to exert all his energy on the offensive end. He is older and more injury prone now. He is not getting any better on the defensive end.

He will be traded at the deadline. If the Knicks are shrewd enough they can get just as much by trading him at the deadline as they would waiting til next offseason. Maybe even more if a team like Washington, Chicago, Miami, Atlanta, Dallas or LA are a Melo type scorer away from contending.

This system requires you to have high basketba IQ, great work ethic & selflessness.

Melo is the odd man out here

I don't believe that Melo is the detriment that you are painting him as. Not if the team as a whole is better around him. Melo just needs to be a bit more efficient overall. I don't believe he has to be the ultimate Triangle player for this team to win. His role is more of a guy who gets his team a good shot when all else fails. So he needs to allow the offense to function for much of the shot clock and then if things aren't working he can do his thing. I don't believe he'll have a problem with that.

nixluva wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:I've never been of the belief that you can change a player like Melo and his play last year sealed the deal for me. Constantly ignoring he triangle and trying to get his which is all he knows. He just doesn't have the basketball IQ to make plays for others. He is only comfortable with the ball in his hands with the intent on trying to score. The lack of basketball IQ worked it worked in college because he was by far the best player on the floor but it doesn't work in the NBA. Only way he will sniff a ring is as a Robin to someone's Batman. Guys like Jordan, Kobe, Lebron and Wade put up a ton of shots but they let the game come to them and can adjust to the defense and make plays for others.

Also Melo is a lazy defender and chooses to exert all his energy on the offensive end. He is older and more injury prone now. He is not getting any better on the defensive end.

He will be traded at the deadline. If the Knicks are shrewd enough they can get just as much by trading him at the deadline as they would waiting til next offseason. Maybe even more if a team like Washington, Chicago, Miami, Atlanta, Dallas or LA are a Melo type scorer away from contending.

This system requires you to have high basketba IQ, great work ethic & selflessness.

Melo is the odd man out here

I don't believe that Melo is the detriment that you are painting him as. Not if the team as a whole is better around him. Melo just needs to be a bit more efficient overall. I don't believe he has to be the ultimate Triangle player for this team to win. His role is more of a guy who gets his team a good shot when all else fails. So he needs to allow the offense to function for much of the shot clock and then if things aren't working he can do his thing. I don't believe he'll have a problem with that.

nixluva wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:I've never been of the belief that you can change a player like Melo and his play last year sealed the deal for me. Constantly ignoring he triangle and trying to get his which is all he knows. He just doesn't have the basketball IQ to make plays for others. He is only comfortable with the ball in his hands with the intent on trying to score. The lack of basketball IQ worked it worked in college because he was by far the best player on the floor but it doesn't work in the NBA. Only way he will sniff a ring is as a Robin to someone's Batman. Guys like Jordan, Kobe, Lebron and Wade put up a ton of shots but they let the game come to them and can adjust to the defense and make plays for others.

Also Melo is a lazy defender and chooses to exert all his energy on the offensive end. He is older and more injury prone now. He is not getting any better on the defensive end.

He will be traded at the deadline. If the Knicks are shrewd enough they can get just as much by trading him at the deadline as they would waiting til next offseason. Maybe even more if a team like Washington, Chicago, Miami, Atlanta, Dallas or LA are a Melo type scorer away from contending.

This system requires you to have high basketba IQ, great work ethic & selflessness.

Melo is the odd man out here

I don't believe that Melo is the detriment that you are painting him as. Not if the team as a whole is better around him. Melo just needs to be a bit more efficient overall. I don't believe he has to be the ultimate Triangle player for this team to win. His role is more of a guy who gets his team a good shot when all else fails. So he needs to allow the offense to function for much of the shot clock and then if things aren't working he can do his thing. I don't believe he'll have a problem with that.

Anthony has to show, through his play, that he is willing to play within the system and not slow down the flow of the offense or be a ball stopper. When the guy who is supposedly your "star" does not buy in, what does that tell the other players? You don't think that some of the players resistant to the triangle last year took their cue from Anthony? There is a reason why his crew is now history on this team.

You can't have players feeling the need to defer to Anthony in certain circumstances, or stand around when they are supposed to be moving. Under Woodson, Shumpert, THJ, and Smith were frequently standing around the perimeter waiting for a pass out, and you saw a some of that last year, too.

I saw enough of the Woodson era Carmelo when he was healthy to play last year to be concerned, and lets face it, Anthony does not have the athletic ability he once had- he is simply not quick enough to do the things he used to do on a regular basis.

Why can't we expect him to be a normal participant in the offense and not some last ditch go to guy or BB diva who continues to do his thing outside of the "triangular flow" and sets himself up against Fisher and Phil in the eyes of the other players?

Hopefully he sees the light and makes some changes to his game.

gunsnewing wrote:

nixluva wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:I've never been of the belief that you can change a player like Melo and his play last year sealed the deal for me. Constantly ignoring he triangle and trying to get his which is all he knows. He just doesn't have the basketball IQ to make plays for others. He is only comfortable with the ball in his hands with the intent on trying to score. The lack of basketball IQ worked it worked in college because he was by far the best player on the floor but it doesn't work in the NBA. Only way he will sniff a ring is as a Robin to someone's Batman. Guys like Jordan, Kobe, Lebron and Wade put up a ton of shots but they let the game come to them and can adjust to the defense and make plays for others.

Also Melo is a lazy defender and chooses to exert all his energy on the offensive end. He is older and more injury prone now. He is not getting any better on the defensive end.

He will be traded at the deadline. If the Knicks are shrewd enough they can get just as much by trading him at the deadline as they would waiting til next offseason. Maybe even more if a team like Washington, Chicago, Miami, Atlanta, Dallas or LA are a Melo type scorer away from contending.

This system requires you to have high basketba IQ, great work ethic & selflessness.

Melo is the odd man out here

I don't believe that Melo is the detriment that you are painting him as. Not if the team as a whole is better around him. Melo just needs to be a bit more efficient overall. I don't believe he has to be the ultimate Triangle player for this team to win. His role is more of a guy who gets his team a good shot when all else fails. So he needs to allow the offense to function for much of the shot clock and then if things aren't working he can do his thing. I don't believe he'll have a problem with that.

This is he NBA. The offense will only function with the ball in your best players hands making the right decision whether to shoot or create depending on the defensive coverage. Teams win when their star players get doubled and are capable of finding the open man.

It's not about Melo having the ball and making the key decisions. It's about Jerian, Jose and other players who will touch the ball in this offense making good decisions and finishing plays. This isn't a feed the ball to Melo offense. He's one of the primary scoring options of course but this offense is still going to be controlled by the guards who make the decisions to either feed Melo or reverse the ball and go to the other side. It's the same kind of decisions that Fisher had to make when playing with Kobe. He had the mental strength to look off Kobe and go the other way in order to keep the flow going. He'll teach Jerian to be the same way.

This team is being coached to have ball and player movement and part of that flow is for the ball to ultimately end up in Melo's hands. He averaged 20 FGA's a game last year. That's to be expected for a star player. However, the ball will be spread around much more this year than last year when Melo wasn't getting the support offensively he needed. I believe there will be much more flow to the offense with Jerian in the mix and with more screens being part of the offense. Fish wants more scoring at the basket and with more PnR plays mixed in I believe things will not be as static and predictable.

Melo isn't running everything and Fish and his other players have a say in how this offense functions. If they're not scared to make plays like last year then we won't see ISO Melo all the time. That was the problem when we were forced to use Larkin and other young guys and when JR and Shump were like Deer in headlights in this offense. They just dumped it to Melo cuz they didn't know what else to do.

WaltLongmire wrote:Watch to see if Anthony is a "system breaker" in pre-season and in the early part of the regular season.

If he is still playing the same ISO stuff he is known for, and doesn't seem to be in sync with the rest of the team, especially if everyone else seems to be doing what Fisher wants them to do, it might be that Anthony is sending a message to the team that he wants out.

Everyone who was with Anthony under Woodson is gone from the team. I've pointed this out a number of times- this purging changed the power structure on the team- Fisher now has a chance to compete with Anthony to be the "leader" on the team, since Anthony's crew is gone. It has also been a not so subtle message to Carmelo, and anyone else, that if they don't buy into the system there will be repercussions.

Anthony also isolated himself from our incoming FAs by not reaching out to them. I'm also pretty certain that Phil thoroughly screened the FAs we signed told them what the team wants to do on offense. The returning vets are well versed in the triangle, and Fisher coaching our draftees in SL cemented his leadership role with them. With all of this in place, Fisher has a chance to take over the team and run it the way he wants to.

Hopefully Carmelo finally buys into what Phil/Fish are trying to do, but if he doesn't, maybe he does get moved at some point.

There really would be no point at all in Carmelo going through all that. Why do all that and send a message to the team when he could request a trade and look to go to a situation more to his liking if making it work isnt in his plans ? Would be pretty retarted to waste part of the season looking to defy everyone.

newyorker4ever wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:Watch to see if Anthony is a "system breaker" in pre-season and in the early part of the regular season.

If he is still playing the same ISO stuff he is known for, and doesn't seem to be in sync with the rest of the team, especially if everyone else seems to be doing what Fisher wants them to do, it might be that Anthony is sending a message to the team that he wants out.

Everyone who was with Anthony under Woodson is gone from the team. I've pointed this out a number of times- this purging changed the power structure on the team- Fisher now has a chance to compete with Anthony to be the "leader" on the team, since Anthony's crew is gone. It has also been a not so subtle message to Carmelo, and anyone else, that if they don't buy into the system there will be repercussions.

Anthony also isolated himself from our incoming FAs by not reaching out to them. I'm also pretty certain that Phil thoroughly screened the FAs we signed told them what the team wants to do on offense. The returning vets are well versed in the triangle, and Fisher coaching our draftees in SL cemented his leadership role with them. With all of this in place, Fisher has a chance to take over the team and run it the way he wants to.

Hopefully Carmelo finally buys into what Phil/Fish are trying to do, but if he doesn't, maybe he does get moved at some point.

I want to say something about the Melo ISO talk. If you watch the games that Melo played last year you'll see that Melo did plenty of passing but he didn't have anyone besides JR that were comfortable taking the shot so the ball would get passed around until it always ended up back in Melo's hands and the clock would be down so he'd have to take the shot. Other players wouldn't want to shoot the ball so they wouldn't and it would always just go right back to Melo so what is he supposed to do with it?? With all the non offensive players we have on this team you better expect Melo to be taking a lot of shots again. MELO NEEDS ANOTHER STAR TO PLAY WITH THAT CAN ACTUALLY SCORE POINTS WHICH WE DON'T HAVE AGAIN. That's why we're gonna be playing much more defense next year and Melo will be scoring a lot of points.

We have more players who can move without the ball and finish at the basket or post up and pass or make a simple post move or face up jumper. In the end it's not so much about having a team with a lot of stars as it is about having players who can execute the basic principles of the offense. We didn't have enough of those guys last year. This is just simply a better roster than last year even with some young and inexperienced players. They at least have the needed skills and BB IQ to get something done rather than only dumping it to Melo every time.