nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:I think the triangle is outdated and perhaps a bit stupid for todays game where GM's are becoming really smart and hiring really smart guys.

Phil does not believe it is stupid and believe that whoever does not run the triangle is stupid.

Come on man! That's not what Phil thinks. He's often talked about the fact that there is more than one way to win. He loves what the Spurs do and was complementary of the Warriors and Hawks. When he fired Fish he told him that he should make the Triangle his own and introduce whatever tweaks he felt were needed. Phil did the same thing when he was coaching. He made tons of changes over the years depending on his roster. The underlying principles of the Triangle are pure basketball. Ball and Player movement. There's nothing stupid about it. It expect that Fish will have the team playing some really fun and exciting basketball this year.

well lets see if the knicks run away with long 2 attempts this season.

You know we keep going over this and I thought I addressed this multiple times. There's nothing about the Triangle that stops a team from taking 3's or getting to the basket in fact getting to the basket it is the primary goal of the Triangle. The problem was that our players weren't doing it right. In terms of efficiency Phil's teams were as efficient as any team today and they were able to remain efficient in the post season.

The Triangle as a base offense can be tweaked and has been tweaked to make it better over the years and as we see they're still adding things to the offense. Don't go off last year when everything went wrong and we gutted the roster. You'll be making assumptions based on all the wrong things.

and we discussed that having shaq and gasol shooting 70% from the field may have helped that efficiency and that this is no longer 5 years ago.

Again, lets see if they lead in that category again because now with this team that you are so happy with and with you believe in the triangles efficiency, there will be no excuse to lead in that stat again.

Uptown wrote:

mreinman wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

mreinman wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

nixluva wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Don't believe there is ever a good reason for Phil not to acknowledge a player on the team. Nothing Zen about that.

Actually Phil does a lot of things like that for a reason. He's not a stupid man. He's one of those guys that is always playing mind games with people. It's annoying IMO but that's the kind of person Phil is. Phil often wants to keep people on their toes. Pat Riley isn't that much different. You'd be surprised how many people in leadership positions in sports are like that. Tex Winter used to push Phil's buttons on the bench during games. It's something that would tick him off but he also liked it.

Jackson is the president of the franchise not the coach. Its beneath someone of his stature to treat players like they dont exist. If Phil really wants to motivate a player who is underperforming (which we don't know was the case) stopping and giving a few words of encouragement to a player would go a lot further than the silent treatment.

I am sure that he tried. Didn't he take him out to dinner a few times?

So Phil's thinking. " Oh yeah I talked to that player at dinner a few weeks ago....... f'em."

I am sure that they tried very hard last year to get Melo to buy in and now they are quite frustrated.

Where is the report and or quotes that state Phil/Fish/Mills are frustrated with Melo?

If it was up to me, I'd rather he had the surgery ASAP, since it'll take about six months to fully recuperate. And, really, what difference does it make if he plays this season or not? Winning 20 games or 25 games doesn't get us into the playoffs, and the aspect of him playing with a physical issue isn't in our or his best interests."

And do you think this comment (NY Times interview, I think) by him might also express some frustration?

JACKSON I don’t see any value at all in an All-Star Game. None. I think it was a pretty exciting game this year because of its speed. But as a coach, what’s the point? But when guys have, as part of their contract, shoe things when they make the All-Star team, we try to accommodate what will help them move forward with their lives and their careers. So when we sat down with Carmelo in London and we had dinner with him, we actually pointed to that date as a possible time for him to shut it down.

And could this pre-draft comment also be directed at Anthony, too?

JACKSON We’re trying to find players who are the best fit for us. We’re really chasing as much information as we can. We’re not interested in guys who are just interested in the money and in their branding. They have to have a little more to their life than just those selfish desires. There’s nothing wrong with chasing money, and there’s nothing wrong with making the most from your name. But that seems to be the running theme that you see a lot these days.

Its all there if you want to put all the pieces together, but folks are more comfortable doing this:
.......................

CrushAlot wrote:^^^^Wasn't the pre draft comment aimed at Winslow's comments? Maybe they were unrelated. It sounds like Anthony must have had a clause in his contract where he got a bonus if he played in the all star game. If he isn't ready for camp and the season it would be a good, real reason to go after him. I think Phil in some ways is complaining about the modern star athlete in general terms. Reports were that the Knicks medical staff said that Anthony couldn't make his injury worse by playing. If that is the case the risk would be that his lack of recovery time influences his performance this year. Kill him for it if he isn't healthy because he played in an all star game but otherwise I don't see much here.

and you don't really believe that those comments were just aimed at winslow?

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:^^^^Wasn't the pre draft comment aimed at Winslow's comments? Maybe they were unrelated. It sounds like Anthony must have had a clause in his contract where he got a bonus if he played in the all star game. If he isn't ready for camp and the season it would be a good, real reason to go after him. I think Phil in some ways is complaining about the modern star athlete in general terms. Reports were that the Knicks medical staff said that Anthony couldn't make his injury worse by playing. If that is the case the risk would be that his lack of recovery time influences his performance this year. Kill him for it if he isn't healthy because he played in an all star game but otherwise I don't see much here.

and you don't really believe that those comments were just aimed at winslow?

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:^^^^Wasn't the pre draft comment aimed at Winslow's comments? Maybe they were unrelated. It sounds like Anthony must have had a clause in his contract where he got a bonus if he played in the all star game. If he isn't ready for camp and the season it would be a good, real reason to go after him. I think Phil in some ways is complaining about the modern star athlete in general terms. Reports were that the Knicks medical staff said that Anthony couldn't make his injury worse by playing. If that is the case the risk would be that his lack of recovery time influences his performance this year. Kill him for it if he isn't healthy because he played in an all star game but otherwise I don't see much here.

and you don't really believe that those comments were just aimed at winslow?

I think they were in response to Winslow but as I said I think Phil is just complaining in general about the modern star nba player.

of course they were about Melo. You think thats just a coincidence? All of the sudden he is commenting on winslow who he wasn't even going to take?

You are a great poster and highly respected poster but at times it seems that you just choose to ignore the obvious if it crosses the party line.

WaltLongmire wrote:

Uptown wrote:

mreinman wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

mreinman wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

nixluva wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Don't believe there is ever a good reason for Phil not to acknowledge a player on the team. Nothing Zen about that.

Actually Phil does a lot of things like that for a reason. He's not a stupid man. He's one of those guys that is always playing mind games with people. It's annoying IMO but that's the kind of person Phil is. Phil often wants to keep people on their toes. Pat Riley isn't that much different. You'd be surprised how many people in leadership positions in sports are like that. Tex Winter used to push Phil's buttons on the bench during games. It's something that would tick him off but he also liked it.

Jackson is the president of the franchise not the coach. Its beneath someone of his stature to treat players like they dont exist. If Phil really wants to motivate a player who is underperforming (which we don't know was the case) stopping and giving a few words of encouragement to a player would go a lot further than the silent treatment.

I am sure that he tried. Didn't he take him out to dinner a few times?

So Phil's thinking. " Oh yeah I talked to that player at dinner a few weeks ago....... f'em."

I am sure that they tried very hard last year to get Melo to buy in and now they are quite frustrated.

Where is the report and or quotes that state Phil/Fish/Mills are frustrated with Melo?

So do you think there might have been a discussion about him needing to play in the All-Star game, and that Phil might have expressed himself a little stronger than these words indicate?

If it was up to me, I'd rather he had the surgery ASAP, since it'll take about six months to fully recuperate. And, really, what difference does it make if he plays this season or not? Winning 20 games or 25 games doesn't get us into the playoffs, and the aspect of him playing with a physical issue isn't in our or his best interests."

And do you think this comment (NY Times interview, I think) by him might also express some frustration?

JACKSON I don’t see any value at all in an All-Star Game. None. I think it was a pretty exciting game this year because of its speed. But as a coach, what’s the point? But when guys have, as part of their contract, shoe things when they make the All-Star team, we try to accommodate what will help them move forward with their lives and their careers. So when we sat down with Carmelo in London and we had dinner with him, we actually pointed to that date as a possible time for him to shut it down.

And could this pre-draft comment also be directed at Anthony, too?

JACKSON We’re trying to find players who are the best fit for us. We’re really chasing as much information as we can. We’re not interested in guys who are just interested in the money and in their branding. They have to have a little more to their life than just those selfish desires. There’s nothing wrong with chasing money, and there’s nothing wrong with making the most from your name. But that seems to be the running theme that you see a lot these days.

Its all there if you want to put all the pieces together, but folks are more comfortable doing this:
.......................

In order to put my head in the sand over an issue, I have to actually care about it first. I don't honestly care if Melo is in a huff with Phil or not. We have no way of knowing either way- it's all guess work and conjecture based on media **** stirring (remember when they claimed there was tension between Melo and Tim Jr? Now they are claiming their is tension between Melo and Phil because he traded Tim Jr!), which you believe (and you may be right), but just because you believe something, it doesn't make it a fact.

The situation had flared during the Knicks’ loss to the Nets last Tuesday when Tim Hardaway Jr. allegedly barked: “Get the rebound!” Anthony took it personally, cursing at Hardaway and threatening to beat him up after the game.

“Nobody’s taken a swing at anybody, but there’s a lot of arguing and cursing each other out after games,” a source told the website of the 4-19 Knicks.
Hardaway, who has struggled under Derek Fisher, is apparently the leader of an anti-Carmelo movement.

The website reported Anthony and Hardaway have clashed since Hardaway was drafted last year.

http://nypost.com/2014/12/10/carmelo-threatened-to-fight-hardaway-amid-knicks-discord-report/

Compare with an article by the same writer in the same paper a few months later:

Carmelo Anthony has been at a low boil since December and his temperature rose again on draft night after Phil Jackson selected European project Kristaps Porzingis and traded away Melo’s friend, Tim Hardaway Jr.
According to a source, Anthony was “very disappointed’’ to see Hardaway go.

Anthony followed up with another tweet saluting Hardaway, who was traded to Atlanta for the rights to Notre Dame senior point guard Jerian Grant. “The bond between mentor and protege enables us to stay true to our chosen path,’’ he tweeted.

http://nypost.com/2015/06/26/carmelo-feels-betrayed-by-jackson-after-porzingis-pick/

Wow it's almost like the media exaggerates stuff and manufactures drama to sell papers- who'd of thunk it!

TripleThreat wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:Yes, there's tension.

Imagine a couple with money problems. Do you believe there is tension there?

I have never seen a couple with money problems, married, straight, gay, young, old, any race, even just a couple of college kids living together, where there was not tension.

Consistent losing in pro sports from management to players ( their "marriage") = Money problems between a "couple" when you discuss rank and file people.

Nothing good ever comes from losing and losing a lot over a span of time. People want to blame someone and both sides ( Melo and Zen Master) are used to shifting the blame to someone else.

There are people who want to defend Melo's behavior at all costs, even if it costs the Knicks wins. In my book, those folks are traitors. The name in the back of the jersey means more than the one in front. These are folks who accept unacceptable behavior because they could care less if winning happens and what it takes to win as long as Player X or Player Y gets their way.

Melo is taking hits because benefit of the doubt is earned over time. Melo has done NOTHING to establish that positive credit in the eyes of the league, the sports media and fans in general.

In bold is all I needed to read.

Great post. It's what I've been saying since I resurfaced from my self imposed UK exile after the contiuous losing the last 2 years.

That's the ultimateknicks question. "Root for the name in the back, or root for the name in front".

That should root out the "real" Knicks fans.

ChuckBuck wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:Yes, there's tension.

Imagine a couple with money problems. Do you believe there is tension there?

I have never seen a couple with money problems, married, straight, gay, young, old, any race, even just a couple of college kids living together, where there was not tension.

Consistent losing in pro sports from management to players ( their "marriage") = Money problems between a "couple" when you discuss rank and file people.

Nothing good ever comes from losing and losing a lot over a span of time. People want to blame someone and both sides ( Melo and Zen Master) are used to shifting the blame to someone else.

There are people who want to defend Melo's behavior at all costs, even if it costs the Knicks wins. In my book, those folks are traitors. The name in the back of the jersey means more than the one in front. These are folks who accept unacceptable behavior because they could care less if winning happens and what it takes to win as long as Player X or Player Y gets their way.

Melo is taking hits because benefit of the doubt is earned over time. Melo has done NOTHING to establish that positive credit in the eyes of the league, the sports media and fans in general.

In bold is all I needed to read.

Great post. It's what I've been saying since I resurfaced from my self imposed UK exile after the contiuous losing the last 2 years.

That's the ultimateknicks question. "Root for the name in the back, or root for the name in front".

That should root out the "real" Knicks fans.

Kids like stars. They don't need to know if statistically is one or now, they just like it. Melo is the league now a long time and some of these kids are not teens or in their 20's. Melo in NY is a star. He is an Allstar. If left alone he'll average 29 pts a game. Real fans look at how much that salary costs on the team, what the trade cost to get him 5 years ago, and what getting melo help in the form of a very Isiah like move as we did to get Bargs has cost us!!!! Melo is on Kids shows, had cool hats, has both appeal to black americans and the Hispanic market, has a cool mustash, and wears a headband. Melo choose to be a star in NY than win in Chicago.

The "Im sick of it crowd" harps on Phils ineffective first year and somehow its all on the Chandler for Calderone trade. In hindsight I wondering why we did not blow it up the moment he got here? Because we did n't know Bargs would be hurt and phil gave the existing roster a chance to play into the triangle, or fight it. Hindsight 20-20 is easy.

smackeddog wrote:
In order to put my head in the sand over an issue, I have to actually care about it first. I don't honestly care if Melo is in a huff with Phil or not. We have no way of knowing either way- it's all guess work and conjecture based on media **** stirring (remember when they claimed there was tension between Melo and Tim Jr? Now they are claiming their is tension between Melo and Phil because he traded Tim Jr!), which you believe (and you may be right), but just because you believe something, it doesn't make it a fact.

The situation had flared during the Knicks’ loss to the Nets last Tuesday when Tim Hardaway Jr. allegedly barked: “Get the rebound!” Anthony took it personally, cursing at Hardaway and threatening to beat him up after the game.

“Nobody’s taken a swing at anybody, but there’s a lot of arguing and cursing each other out after games,” a source told the website of the 4-19 Knicks.
Hardaway, who has struggled under Derek Fisher, is apparently the leader of an anti-Carmelo movement.

The website reported Anthony and Hardaway have clashed since Hardaway was drafted last year.

http://nypost.com/2014/12/10/carmelo-threatened-to-fight-hardaway-amid-knicks-discord-report/

Compare with an article by the same writer in the same paper a few months later:

Carmelo Anthony has been at a low boil since December and his temperature rose again on draft night after Phil Jackson selected European project Kristaps Porzingis and traded away Melo’s friend, Tim Hardaway Jr.
According to a source, Anthony was “very disappointed’’ to see Hardaway go.

Anthony followed up with another tweet saluting Hardaway, who was traded to Atlanta for the rights to Notre Dame senior point guard Jerian Grant. “The bond between mentor and protege enables us to stay true to our chosen path,’’ he tweeted.

http://nypost.com/2015/06/26/carmelo-feels-betrayed-by-jackson-after-porzingis-pick/

Wow it's almost like the media exaggerates stuff and manufactures drama to sell papers- who'd of thunk it!

I put a lot of importance on the actual words coming from the "participants" in the Knicks' melodrama (the pun is unintentional, I assure you), unless you get the sense that they are of the "damage control" type. The Post is the most provocative paper out there in terms of the Knicks, although Isola always likes to stir things up- I look at the quotes they might include in their articles, but I'm never influenced by the spin they put on them.

I may be wrong about my analyses of players, but I feel extremely confident about my ability to analyze words, texts, statements, and their nuances...assuming I have everything in front of me.

Jackson has given us a lot of actual comments to chew on, and as I've said, the All-Star/Anthony injury issue seems to have been a turning point in how Phil looked at Anthony. People point to some of the things he says which they don't seem to understand and wonder if he knows what he's talking about, but he knows exactly what he is saying and why he is saying it.

I've talked about this before, and probably been ignored by many around here, but Phil has gotten rid of Anthony's entire entourage with the trading of Smith, Shump, and THJ. Phil also chose to ignore Anthony's choice in the draft (Winslow) and in using THJ to get Grant, he acquired a player who he has some history with from his Bulls' days.

He talked about drafting "mature" players and many thought he was only talking about physical maturity, but he wasn't- the common maturity between Grant and KP had nothing to do with their bodies, but their respective approaches to the game.

Phil talked about taking players with solid family backgrounds and "support groups," and all the players he drafted come from professional basketball families, and all seem to have active support from direct family members and others.

Forget the spins of guys like Berman or Isola when talking about Jackson. Just look at what Phil says and the decisions he makes, and go from there.

He clearly decided at some point last year that he was going to drastically change the culture on the team- the Rosen article gives you an idea of how he was checking in with Fisher to see what the tone of the team was like- and this is validated by looking at the players he got rid of, the players he drafted, and, for the most part, the players he acquired in FA (D.Williams seems like a wildcard signing to me).

Not sure there is much speculation on my part, to be honest- Phil's words and actions seem to go hand in hand.

One funny thing, though...from Rosen article

If we ever had the opportunity to bring in an All-Star player, I'd certainly ask Carmelo if he thought he could play with the guy. Otherwise, it's appropriate to keep him out of the loop."

“Well, you know, we’re a team sport,” Jackson said. “When we’re putting a team together that’s our first priority; how do we make a team that works together? That’s the important aspect. How this all comes together is still a mystery for us. We’ve got five months to kinda get into it here.

“Obviously Carmelo is a guy that is a premier player, we understand that. But it’s a team game. And it has to fit together.”

There are messages being sent to Anthony by Phil when he speaks, just like Anthony has sent "messages" to Phil in one form all another.

Should be an interesting season.

WaltLongmire wrote:

Uptown wrote:

mreinman wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

mreinman wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

nixluva wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Don't believe there is ever a good reason for Phil not to acknowledge a player on the team. Nothing Zen about that.

Actually Phil does a lot of things like that for a reason. He's not a stupid man. He's one of those guys that is always playing mind games with people. It's annoying IMO but that's the kind of person Phil is. Phil often wants to keep people on their toes. Pat Riley isn't that much different. You'd be surprised how many people in leadership positions in sports are like that. Tex Winter used to push Phil's buttons on the bench during games. It's something that would tick him off but he also liked it.

Jackson is the president of the franchise not the coach. Its beneath someone of his stature to treat players like they dont exist. If Phil really wants to motivate a player who is underperforming (which we don't know was the case) stopping and giving a few words of encouragement to a player would go a lot further than the silent treatment.

I am sure that he tried. Didn't he take him out to dinner a few times?

So Phil's thinking. " Oh yeah I talked to that player at dinner a few weeks ago....... f'em."

I am sure that they tried very hard last year to get Melo to buy in and now they are quite frustrated.

Where is the report and or quotes that state Phil/Fish/Mills are frustrated with Melo?

So do you think there might have been a discussion about him needing to play in the All-Star game, and that Phil might have expressed himself a little stronger than these words indicate?

If it was up to me, I'd rather he had the surgery ASAP, since it'll take about six months to fully recuperate. And, really, what difference does it make if he plays this season or not? Winning 20 games or 25 games doesn't get us into the playoffs, and the aspect of him playing with a physical issue isn't in our or his best interests."

And do you think this comment (NY Times interview, I think) by him might also express some frustration?

JACKSON I don’t see any value at all in an All-Star Game. None. I think it was a pretty exciting game this year because of its speed. But as a coach, what’s the point? But when guys have, as part of their contract, shoe things when they make the All-Star team, we try to accommodate what will help them move forward with their lives and their careers. So when we sat down with Carmelo in London and we had dinner with him, we actually pointed to that date as a possible time for him to shut it down.

And could this pre-draft comment also be directed at Anthony, too?

JACKSON We’re trying to find players who are the best fit for us. We’re really chasing as much information as we can. We’re not interested in guys who are just interested in the money and in their branding. They have to have a little more to their life than just those selfish desires. There’s nothing wrong with chasing money, and there’s nothing wrong with making the most from your name. But that seems to be the running theme that you see a lot these days.

Its all there if you want to put all the pieces together, but folks are more comfortable doing this:
.......................

Awesome post. Good to see there are still some rational posters left here

gunsnewing wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

Uptown wrote:

mreinman wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

mreinman wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

nixluva wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Don't believe there is ever a good reason for Phil not to acknowledge a player on the team. Nothing Zen about that.

Actually Phil does a lot of things like that for a reason. He's not a stupid man. He's one of those guys that is always playing mind games with people. It's annoying IMO but that's the kind of person Phil is. Phil often wants to keep people on their toes. Pat Riley isn't that much different. You'd be surprised how many people in leadership positions in sports are like that. Tex Winter used to push Phil's buttons on the bench during games. It's something that would tick him off but he also liked it.

Jackson is the president of the franchise not the coach. Its beneath someone of his stature to treat players like they dont exist. If Phil really wants to motivate a player who is underperforming (which we don't know was the case) stopping and giving a few words of encouragement to a player would go a lot further than the silent treatment.

I am sure that he tried. Didn't he take him out to dinner a few times?

So Phil's thinking. " Oh yeah I talked to that player at dinner a few weeks ago....... f'em."

I am sure that they tried very hard last year to get Melo to buy in and now they are quite frustrated.

Where is the report and or quotes that state Phil/Fish/Mills are frustrated with Melo?

So do you think there might have been a discussion about him needing to play in the All-Star game, and that Phil might have expressed himself a little stronger than these words indicate?

If it was up to me, I'd rather he had the surgery ASAP, since it'll take about six months to fully recuperate. And, really, what difference does it make if he plays this season or not? Winning 20 games or 25 games doesn't get us into the playoffs, and the aspect of him playing with a physical issue isn't in our or his best interests."

And do you think this comment (NY Times interview, I think) by him might also express some frustration?

JACKSON I don’t see any value at all in an All-Star Game. None. I think it was a pretty exciting game this year because of its speed. But as a coach, what’s the point? But when guys have, as part of their contract, shoe things when they make the All-Star team, we try to accommodate what will help them move forward with their lives and their careers. So when we sat down with Carmelo in London and we had dinner with him, we actually pointed to that date as a possible time for him to shut it down.

And could this pre-draft comment also be directed at Anthony, too?

JACKSON We’re trying to find players who are the best fit for us. We’re really chasing as much information as we can. We’re not interested in guys who are just interested in the money and in their branding. They have to have a little more to their life than just those selfish desires. There’s nothing wrong with chasing money, and there’s nothing wrong with making the most from your name. But that seems to be the running theme that you see a lot these days.

Its all there if you want to put all the pieces together, but folks are more comfortable doing this:
.......................

Awesome post. Good to see there are still some rational posters left here