yellowboy90 wrote:

FistOfOakley wrote:i happen to disagree... winslow and russell didn't have too many questions coming in.. they were already playing at a high level compared to their age against decent competition...

that doesn't mean they're not going to bust but if you have no idea how to quantify the risk that you're taking you're going to think taking raw 7ft centers are worthy gambles like the sonics used to do year after year in the 90s... and all of a sudden you got nothing out of 5 drafts...

these guys havent played and porzingis might turn out pretty good and i'm just saying the risk was very high when there were pretty good players still available... if winslow makes any amount of all star teams it's going to make us look pretty dumb unless porzingis really does turn into the next dirk...

The said can be same for Porzingis with the added bonus that he played against tougher competition. The question marks around Winslow is positional size(sf) and is his stroke true.

holfresh wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:Isola used the news that Gaines had called drafting Kristaps a once in a lifetime opportunity to go at Phil again. He said Phil was spreading the blame if Kristaps didn't workout. He also said that Phil neglected to give Knicks European scout Kevin Wilson credit.

Phil putting a lot of pressure on this kid to save the franchise..

here's the game your playing... what negativity can I find from this.

Phil's giving credit? Well that can be used to deflect blame.
Melo goes on social media? Must be damage control.

Hey Holfresh Isola ... where did Phil say this kid saving the franchise? Where? Or would it fair to say that's a sentence with 2% truth your going to be regurgitating over and over again and in play fashion "a lot of people are saying this kid is a franchise savior... lots of pressure."

Easy to see how this works.

Boy... I can see your really rooting hard for things to go right (that's sarcasm)

Come on dude..How long have we engaged is these types of discussions..You don't have to decipher my true meaning, just ask..Have I ever shy away from not expressing exactly what's on my mind??...Calling the kid a "once in a lifetime player" doesn't do exactly that???

And now you claim to know that I'm rooting for the Knicks to fail?????

"When someone says to me [that] this is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, I have to be alert," Jackson said of what Knicks basketball adviser Clarence Gaines Jr. told him and how Porzingis eventually became a Knick. "And [I have to] consider that after he's been in this business for as long as he has, I think he has as good of an eye as he has on talent."

http://espn.go.com/nba/draft2015/story/_/id/13154674/phil-jackson-defends-new-york-knicks-first-round-selection-kristaps-porzingis
That was what was said but it was defending the pick not putting pressure on Kristaps.

OK..Then let's watch the media over the next few years rehash this comment from Phil...You think the media cares about context when labels like that are spit out...Phil said he did a great job getting rid of salaries..What did the media hear???

holfresh wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

holfresh wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:Isola used the news that Gaines had called drafting Kristaps a once in a lifetime opportunity to go at Phil again. He said Phil was spreading the blame if Kristaps didn't workout. He also said that Phil neglected to give Knicks European scout Kevin Wilson credit.

Phil putting a lot of pressure on this kid to save the franchise..

here's the game your playing... what negativity can I find from this.

Phil's giving credit? Well that can be used to deflect blame.
Melo goes on social media? Must be damage control.

Hey Holfresh Isola ... where did Phil say this kid saving the franchise? Where? Or would it fair to say that's a sentence with 2% truth your going to be regurgitating over and over again and in play fashion "a lot of people are saying this kid is a franchise savior... lots of pressure."

Easy to see how this works.

Boy... I can see your really rooting hard for things to go right (that's sarcasm)

Come on dude..How long have we engaged is these types of discussions..You don't have to decipher my true meaning, just ask..Have I ever shy away from not expressing exactly what's on my mind??...Calling the kid a "once in a lifetime player" doesn't do exactly that???

And now you claim to know that I'm rooting for the Knicks to fail?????

"When someone says to me [that] this is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, I have to be alert," Jackson said of what Knicks basketball adviser Clarence Gaines Jr. told him and how Porzingis eventually became a Knick. "And [I have to] consider that after he's been in this business for as long as he has, I think he has as good of an eye as he has on talent."

http://espn.go.com/nba/draft2015/story/_/id/13154674/phil-jackson-defends-new-york-knicks-first-round-selection-kristaps-porzingis
That was what was said but it was defending the pick not putting pressure on Kristaps.

OK..Then let's watch the media over the next few years rehash this comment from Phil...You think the media cares about context when labels like that are spit out...Phil said he did a great job getting rid of salaries..What did the media hear???

Are you accountable for anything that YOU say on these boards? For instance comparing KP to Shawn Bradley. Much like you derive a hidden negative connotation & meaning behind everything that Phil says.....one could conclude based on your comments that you are biased and prejudiced against this kid solely because he is a tall white euro.

holfresh wrote:Phil slipped and said we will see in five years then said one year later in the interview..I see Shawn Bradley..Too skinny to man the middle..

It's very interesting the way you phased that sentence..Very interesting...Strength wise, he isn't ready to play in the NBA..Well he is weak and needs to develop his strength..He admitted as much..Phil admitted as much...Zinger said he got stronger from the time he finished playing in Europe to the workouts..I would have much preferred if we drafted a more NBA ready player and not some one for 3 or 4 years down the road..I think I have said that a few times...But let's get back to you statement..It's interesting how u used the word bias and prejudice...Those terms are used as a broad brush towards the masses not individuals..But u slickly stuck it in there to insinuate I'm a racist for not agreeing with the pick...Slick...By the way..My pops is white...

In regards to Porzingis - you've basically only made comparisons on this board to ineffective tall non-athletic white guys. You can infer from that what you want.

CrushAlot wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

FistOfOakley wrote:i happen to disagree... winslow and russell didn't have too many questions coming in.. they were already playing at a high level compared to their age against decent competition...

that doesn't mean they're not going to bust but if you have no idea how to quantify the risk that you're taking you're going to think taking raw 7ft centers are worthy gambles like the sonics used to do year after year in the 90s... and all of a sudden you got nothing out of 5 drafts...

these guys havent played and porzingis might turn out pretty good and i'm just saying the risk was very high when there were pretty good players still available... if winslow makes any amount of all star teams it's going to make us look pretty dumb unless porzingis really does turn into the next dirk...

The said can be same for Porzingis with the added bonus that he played against tougher competition. The question marks around Winslow is positional size(sf) and is his stroke true.

This. It is hard to read your posts and think there is any objectivity regarding Prozingis. You were criticizing him for being 3 mos older then Towns the week before the draft. Not sure why you would disregard all the written accounts of the ACB being the second best professional league in the world after the nba. Someone posted a video of Prozingis today going up against a team that had 8 former nba draft picks. He was matched up against Bostjan Nachbar for most of the game.

omg with the age thing... look this is not me making this up... he was eligible for the draft last year... he would be a soph in college... you have to judge him based on the same scale as how the NBA and college delineates birthdays... he's older than both christian wood and jordan mickey... he's as close to towns in age as he is with andrew wiggins... this is hardly an argument... it is black and white...

and the quality of comp in acb.. the ncaa routinely brings in the best prospects in the nba.. alot more than the acb so i'd have to question the ppl who think that... most ppl say it is the second best professional league in the world... and they are right... it is probably not that close.. and it's decent comp... but comparing it to the ncaa is not a 1 to 1 comparison given the rules and you could easily argue the ncaa has better comp within the major conferences...

i might not sound objective but i am using objective measures... and i'd like to think that it has sound reasoning.. but some would disagree and that's fine... that's why we discuss things...

nixluva wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

FistOfOakley wrote:it just seemed like the knicks have certain types of players that they like and i'm pretty sure these guys are gaines' signature...

thanasis, labeyrie, guillermo and porzingis are in one mold... and early, galloway and grant are in another...

i wasn't a big fan of any of those picks but we'll see if any pan out or not... i am not too optimistic... it's quite possible that none of them do anything in this league...

Couple thoughts.......

1) Not sure what type of signature guys you are expecting to come out of the 2nd Round and D-League.
2) Isn't it a bit early to be down on Thanisis, Labeyrie, Porzingis and Grant without even seeing them play in the NBA?
3) Galloway seems like a solid role player out of the D-League - not sure how you can be down on him especially given his really cheap contract
4) I am not enamored with Early either (so far) - however he does not seem in the same mold galloway and grant as you indicated. Gallow and Grant are measured as good on the ball defenders and fairly heady offensive players - Early does not seem like this type of player (at least so far).

Early is a better player than he showed last year. We have to remember that Early had several setbacks which slowed down his development. If you recall his performances in college he was really energetic and capable. He was a team leader and willed his teams to wins in the NCAA. He started to come on at the end of the season. He still has a lot of upside IMO.

I love kool aid also, but 18 points in a blow out loss against the clips c team isn't convincing. Not saying Early can't put together a good season, but last year did not show me much.

so i don't buy that the acb is that much better than ncaa.... if anything it's close...

FistOfOakley wrote:let's talk about that for a sec... how many guys did porzingis play against that are going to be in the nba? kentucky had 6 guys that were drafted on their team... wisconsin just had 2 themselves... duke had 3... the coaches in the ncaa are of higher quality also...

so i don't buy that the acb is that much better than ncaa.... if anything it's close...

According to your NBA draft theory of team quality assessment, how was Wisconsin able to defeat Kentucky?

Do tell...inquiring minds would want to know.

By the way, Porzingis played on a team with 3 players who were drafted, and the guy we took at 35 was supposedly a late 1st round pick if not for his contract status. Not sure about the other player.

WaltLongmire wrote:

FistOfOakley wrote:let's talk about that for a sec... how many guys did porzingis play against that are going to be in the nba? kentucky had 6 guys that were drafted on their team... wisconsin just had 2 themselves... duke had 3... the coaches in the ncaa are of higher quality also...

so i don't buy that the acb is that much better than ncaa.... if anything it's close...

According to your NBA draft theory of team quality assessment, how was Wisconsin able to defeat Kentucky?

Do tell...inquiring minds would want to know.

By the way, Porzingis played on a team with 3 players who were drafted, and the guy we took at 35 was supposedly a late 1st round pick if not for his contract status. Not sure about the other player.

look it's one game.. wisconsin was pretty good.. how did georgetown get upset by villanova? that's the nature of the tourney... in terms of overall talent the ncaa is better.. this is not even a question... it dwarfs the rest of the world by a factor of 10 on a yearly basis in terms of nba draftees and by players still in the nba....

if you want to argue that it has more teams and the talent is more spread out.. then ok.. we might have a discussion... europe and in particular spain is catching up but i would say it's still behind by a good margin...

but to say it's wildly better just because there are 30yo's is offbase...the 30yo's there are just not that good or of nba quality... if they were they'd be here...

FistOfOakley wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

FistOfOakley wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

FistOfOakley wrote:they're not perfectly similar... it's tough to explain... all those guys have issues finishing at the rim.... they all shoot kinda well.. they all had decent defensive reps... they're all ok athletes but not really by nba standards...

and the overarching theme was that they were all sort of suspect in terms of their actual stats... which is why i'm not too optimistic about any of them... but i mean i've been wrong before just like anyone else...

there's going to be a very good chance that we're going to look back on these drafts and regret passing on guys like clarkson, winslow and delon wright... i might be wrong but i've been doing this a long time too and usually things don't end well with guys like we've drafted...

Many teams passed on Deion Wright...there will be guys in every draft that become very good players even though they were picked later in the first round. I'm not particularly high on Winslow as others seem to be here. His major advantage in the NCAA was strength....which will not be as big of an advantage in the NBA. He is relatively small to be a star NBA wing, and not super athletic as a star NBA #2. He played bully ball against weaker opponents relatively well on offense with his back to the basket in ISO sets for Duke. He is a good passer with good court awareness and a good defender.....but is not a particularly good slasher or finisher. Could be wrong, just don't see him as a future star. Guess we will find out in the coming years.

just because teams passed on a player doesn't mean they made the right decision or have the right methodology... looking at the results and backward rationalizing is not a good way to make an argument...

My argument is that you are presenting an argument that has no analysis and is based on limited or no results .....and then making a weak caveat that you've been wrong before. I'm sorry but RESULTS form almost every basis of a sound argument. You offered no insight as to why you think Wright or Winslow will be a star. I challenged that by saying Wright was passed over by a number of teams - which means that although he may turn out to be a star - there is no indication at this time that the Ranking methodologies for NBA teams feel that way. Apparently whatever the right methodology is that you have in mind pertaining to Wright......you have not explained. I provided my own scouting summary on Winslow - it does not mean it will be 100% accurate - however you have provided no such insight.

It is quite difficult to have any kind of rational discussion with someone who only offers vague intuition.

i have posted my rationalizations on this board and in my other places.... i'm not going to go over it again so if you didn't see it then i apologize but i can't simply just type out the heaps of research and words that i've made for winslow and delon wright... and it's not just me making it either... the internet is your friend.. if you are curious you can just search out why analytics guys love them..

Sorry, but this post is just a cop out and it shows that you've likely done squat in terms of analysis and research. If you choose not to provide any insight or data to back up your points - then most here will believe you just a poser who has no credibility.

Also in response to your NCAA comparison to the , you really don't seem to understand statistical analysis in any way. There are over 4500 Division 1 College basketball players mostly between the ages of 18 - 22. An overwhelming majority of those players are not NBA talent. Thus even good teams are playing mostly against watered down kids and padding their stats. The Spanish ACB league has perhaps 200 players - all of whom are professional with an average age of perhaps 27 years old. Further, the ACB league has a much higher concentration of former NBA players than the NCAA. So you are trying to compare kids to grown men, Amateurs to Professionals and playing frequently against marginal talent vs frequently against former NBA talent. Even the best NCAA power 5 conference teams would likely lose against an organized professional team of grown men from the ACB league.

I'll end the conversation with you here as my guess is that you will continue to add nothing of value in terms of valid insights to the conversation nor this board,

FistOfOakley wrote:let's talk about that for a sec... how many guys did porzingis play against that are going to be in the nba? kentucky had 6 guys that were drafted on their team... wisconsin just had 2 themselves... duke had 3... the coaches in the ncaa are of higher quality also...

so i don't buy that the acb is that much better than ncaa.... if anything it's close...

The big difference is Porzingis was playing against grown men and the college kids were playing against college kids.

newyorker4ever wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

nixluva wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

FistOfOakley wrote:it just seemed like the knicks have certain types of players that they like and i'm pretty sure these guys are gaines' signature...

thanasis, labeyrie, guillermo and porzingis are in one mold... and early, galloway and grant are in another...

i wasn't a big fan of any of those picks but we'll see if any pan out or not... i am not too optimistic... it's quite possible that none of them do anything in this league...

Couple thoughts.......

1) Not sure what type of signature guys you are expecting to come out of the 2nd Round and D-League.
2) Isn't it a bit early to be down on Thanisis, Labeyrie, Porzingis and Grant without even seeing them play in the NBA?
3) Galloway seems like a solid role player out of the D-League - not sure how you can be down on him especially given his really cheap contract
4) I am not enamored with Early either (so far) - however he does not seem in the same mold galloway and grant as you indicated. Gallow and Grant are measured as good on the ball defenders and fairly heady offensive players - Early does not seem like this type of player (at least so far).

Early is a better player than he showed last year. We have to remember that Early had several setbacks which slowed down his development. If you recall his performances in college he was really energetic and capable. He was a team leader and willed his teams to wins in the NCAA. He started to come on at the end of the season. He still has a lot of upside IMO.

I love kool aid also, but 18 points in a blow out loss against the clips c team isn't convincing. Not saying Early can't put together a good season, but last year did not show me much.

Yeah i'm with you. He definitely looked like he was letting his nerves get to him while he was on the court. He kinda turned into Timmy and just kept putting up 3 point shots every time he touched the ball but when he did drive to the basket he didn't look that bad. It would be nice for the kid to show some good improvements in his 2nd year.

I get so tired of the lack of perspective when it comes to assessing our prospects. How many young late picks really flashed and especially after having F'ing surgery??? Some fans have no sense of perspective or reason when evaluating. Add on top all of the issues with the team, being a rookie and trying get a comfort level with the Triangle and it's not hard to imagine it would take something out of his aggressiveness. Early did start to look better but it was still HIS ROOKIE SEASON. Jesus. If he was a top 10 pick, with no surgery and a good team I could understand not cutting him any slack.