callmened wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:

callmened wrote:I'll try to articulate my disappointment with the knicks drafting porzingus. It's not that I think he's a good or bad player (I have no idea ). I just need to understand what the knicks are trying to do. They got Melo for 5 yrs and he needs help. Yet this kid won't be ready to help soon. Sounds like they're building for the future..fine. but then why are they signing a 35 yr old David west??

Sounds like phil knew they needed to tear everything down and rebuild. Cool that makes sense but yet they invested in an aging franchise player who makes a lot of money.

I'm more confused than disappointed. At #4 you needed to get a young player who could contribute now. Not a gamble pick. I'd be more ok with this pick if we didn't invest in Melo (with the obvious pressure to win now). You tell me were rebuilding with a youth movement then I'm all in

I don't like this in between feeling

You shouldn't be disappointed with kris he is just a kid and averaged more ppg then Karl Anthony towns in a league where 99 percent of those teams would crush duke and Kentucky on a nightly basis... This kid will be a major factor this season regardless of its coming off the bench or starting

I'm not disappointed in porzingus. I'm sure he'll be good with time. My concern is the presence of melo makes us a win now team. This kid isn't a win now player. It doesn't add up

So for what was left minus the top 3...Who is more ready than Porzingis?

Knixkik wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

foosballnick wrote:What I find amazing is that people don't seem to understand that the draft is based purely on potential. There are no guarantees for any of these guys. The first 4 guys picked are all about 19 years old. They ALL will require a development period to ramping up in the NBA. Some are disappointed to the point of wanting PJ fired because he didn't pick an NBA ready guy. This is pretty amusing to me.....as if a 19 year old freshmen Winslow is more NBA ready than a 19 year old already playing professional ball in Spain.....or that a guy who had a limited specialty role like WCS is going to come in an be plugged along side Melo and be a perfect fit with no development needed. Perhaps Kaminsky is more polished (and 3-4 years older) than Porzinqis, however based on where he was drafted, teams obviously feel he has less overall potential.....and the NBA draft is ultimately about POTENTIAL.

+1

The player I believe had the best chance to be plugged into the lineup and have an outsized effect on the team was Russell because of his passing ability and shooting. After 3 it was a crapshoot. Phil went with the player he thought had the most upside and didnt get cute with the pick. On top of that we got a PG which was high on my wish list. No complaints here.

The pick of Grant was incredible. Porzigis is the upside guy, Grant is the immediate contributor from this draft that everyone was hoping for. He will have the same impact over the first couple of years as some high picks, just not the upside obviously. But still upside to be a solid rotation player and hopefully even starter.

Its why I wanted Phil to draft a PG in the worst way. Was worried that he would trade down for a retread. There is also no law that says that says that Porzingis cant develop ahead of schedule. The kid is hungry, he might surprise us, especially if Grant can develop some chemistry with Porzingis. They're coming into the league at the same time which is a good way to build a foundation.

callmened wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

callmened wrote:I'll try to articulate my disappointment with the knicks drafting porzingus. It's not that I think he's a good or bad player (I have no idea ). I just need to understand what the knicks are trying to do. They got Melo for 5 yrs and he needs help. Yet this kid won't be ready to help soon. Sounds like they're building for the future..fine. but then why are they signing a 35 yr old David west??

Sounds like phil knew they needed to tear everything down and rebuild. Cool that makes sense but yet they invested in an aging franchise player who makes a lot of money.

I'm more confused than disappointed. At #4 you needed to get a young player who could contribute now. Not a gamble pick. I'd be more ok with this pick if we didn't invest in Melo (with the obvious pressure to win now). You tell me were rebuilding with a youth movement then I'm all in

I don't like this in between feeling

What part of Phil saying from the beginning that the team will be built in free agency and not the draft did you not understand??

That's not the part that I don't understand. Are we rebuilding now or trying to compete with Melo by getting free agents? It sounds like we're in this weird grey area.

Melo was an asset worth keeping for a variety of reasons. Also the East doesnt have 8 clearly defined and established team to go through to make the playoffs. There is zero reason the Knicks cant be a low playoff seed while we develop talent.

How often do you get to draft a guy like this? I see the logic as this.. there was no player on the board that is pushing this squad to compete for a title. Closest win now player was Russell and he was gone. So its draft a role player who can probably come in and help right away like WCS or Winslow (I think we accomplished this with Grant) but that yields what? A few more wins? Are one of those guys getting us past Lebron? I dont see it...

So you keep building and keep developing.

fishmike wrote:young guys like Melo. He likes to take them under his wing. KP is very Americanized. He's watched every American movie. His accent is barely noticable. His English was better than a lot of guys taken from the NCAA (see Cameron Payne's interview). I actually see Melo and KP as a nice fit. If he doesnt embrace this see ya.

callmened wrote:

foosballnick wrote:What I find amazing is that people don't seem to understand that the draft is based purely on potential. There are no guarantees for any of these guys. The first 4 guys picked are all about 19 years old. They ALL will require a development period to ramping up in the NBA. Some are disappointed to the point of wanting PJ fired because he didn't pick an NBA ready guy. This is pretty amusing to me.....as if a 19 year old freshmen Winslow is more NBA ready than a 19 year old already playing professional ball in Spain.....or that a guy who had a limited specialty role like WCS is going to come in an be plugged along side Melo and be a perfect fit with no development needed. Perhaps Kaminsky is more polished (and 3-4 years older) than Porzinqis, however based on where he was drafted, teams obviously feel he has less overall potential.....and the NBA draft is ultimately about POTENTIAL.

We could've drafted a kid with potential to help NOW. That's the direction I thought we were heading. Not that I do or don't agree with that. I just thought having melo meant were in win now mode. This kid will be ready in a yr or 2....which is fine. So that conflicts with having melo.

This kid should be the face of the franchise but we're stuck in win now mode with melo.

We are not stuck in anything. If Melo doesn't fit what we're doing, we will trade him. When his contract is done, we will use the cap space to sign more talent. Phil is building a team with legs, not a "win now" tea, to maximize Melo's remaining years. And I fully endorse that approach.

Nalod wrote:

callmened wrote:I'll try to articulate my disappointment with the knicks drafting porzingus. It's not that I think he's a good or bad player (I have no idea ). I just need to understand what the knicks are trying to do. They got Melo for 5 yrs and he needs help. Yet this kid won't be ready to help soon. Sounds like they're building for the future..fine. but then why are they signing a 35 yr old David west??

Sounds like phil knew they needed to tear everything down and rebuild. Cool that makes sense but yet they invested in an aging franchise player who makes a lot of money.

I'm more confused than disappointed. At #4 you needed to get a young player who could contribute now. Not a gamble pick. I'd be more ok with this pick if we didn't invest in Melo (with the obvious pressure to win now). You tell me were rebuilding with a youth movement then I'm all in

I don't like this in between feeling

You say what you wanted but you did not say who that player is that could contribute now and why? YOur more concerned with MeloPhobic fear of Melo's age and that our window is NOW.

We can trade Melo. Things do happen. Don't forget, Tyson Chandler bounced around a bit until he was "Defensive specialist" after years of being a disappointment. WCS as a rookie would not be better than the DPOY tyson we had a few years ago and where did that take us? We had 27 year old melo, Bunch of old guys, Tyson and we won 54 games with little to show for it or a base to build upon.

Some people need a plan, need to see it and cannot live with things not in order. Fear is the underlying emotion here. Im not slamming you, this is far more prevelent than not. If you ever read a book by phil or now anyting about the Zen he follows then you have to know "fear" is handled very differently.

Im not telling you how to live of course, just have to know that Phil is not afraid of failing. That philosophy made him the alltime winningst coach. No coach ever won without great players but many coach's have not won chips with great players too!!!!!

Fans who feel a need to win now because of Melo and his age are "fearful" of this concept. Again, I don't know what Phil is up to but I have read enough to undertand his concept and approach to comment on it. Basically you have to trust a process and be confident that it works. He asked Jordan and Kobe and they reached heights never achieved without it. Phil asked it of himself and won more chips than anyone.

ALso, if you can't name a player with abolute certainty would contribute at a high level to make the playoffs and be part of a contending team then its kind of easy to nit pick. Is it really that important that we draft NOW a player so next year we don't lose as much to better digest the pick we sent to toronto if Zinger is a better long term project? Would you be happy with Iggy (he was an allstar)type player but instead gave up "Dirk" because you were concerned Melo was 31 and toronto has our pick? "Fear of wasting" Melo?

My guess is Phil and Melo have an understanding that could include being open to the triangle and perhaps how to handle a trade scenario if it came to that.

My guess is Phil is not afraid to fail. That is very new in MSG!!

Love this post...another in a long line of gems from Nalod. You rock, homey.

crzymdups wrote:

callmened wrote:I'll try to articulate my disappointment with the knicks drafting porzingus. It's not that I think he's a good or bad player (I have no idea ). I just need to understand what the knicks are trying to do. They got Melo for 5 yrs and he needs help. Yet this kid won't be ready to help soon. Sounds like they're building for the future..fine. but then why are they signing a 35 yr old David west??

Sounds like phil knew they needed to tear everything down and rebuild. Cool that makes sense but yet they invested in an aging franchise player who makes a lot of money.

I'm more confused than disappointed. At #4 you needed to get a young player who could contribute now. Not a gamble pick. I'd be more ok with this pick if we didn't invest in Melo (with the obvious pressure to win now). You tell me were rebuilding with a youth movement then I'm all in

I don't like this in between feeling

Good post.

My dismay at the pick was for the same reason. Re-signing Melo and the fact that we are going into free agency to grab veterans and have no pick for next season made you think the team would be interested in building a team around Melo.

I am undecided on Porzingis - I'll certainly root for him to succeed and I think he can potentially be good, but yeah... it doesn't seem to jibe with everything else they're doing.

I'm wait and see on Porzingis. Maybe he can play 20 high energy minutes a night this coming season and be really good. Maybe he can be even better and bust on to the scene like Pau Gasol did in his rookie season. Who knows.

Anyway, I'm coming around to cautious optimism on the Porzingis pick. But a little bit of confusion about what the plan is for the rest of the team.

If it weren't for the Jerian Grant move, I'd be really depressed. At one point, I was saying my ideal draft was Willie Cauley Stein and trading Hardaway to get Jerian Grant. The fact that Phil did half of that, the harder half, deserves kudos. Getting a lotto talent for Timmy is incredible, no way to deny that. And it gives the team structure - it's extremely easy to see Grant sliding into the role Shved played last year and really excelling. Grant can be one of the best point guards to ever play in the Triangle. His 2pt% shooting percentage is mind-bogglingly good and includes a lot of the mid-range game that the Triangle creates. The pick to me showed a lot of vision and made sense.

I did think it was telling that Phil didn't really even talk about Porzingis's fit in the Triangle. IF Porzingis can develop a Pau Gasol type back to the basket game, I could see it... anyway, I can wait and see on him... I will root for him... but I just don't see how it fits into playing next to a 31yr old Melo. I guess Kobe was around 30 when the Lakers drafted Bynum...

I wonder how Melo feels about this pick?

We all will wait and see. Maybe Towns gets injured? Russell not an instint hit. Oka4 too slow. Maybe all these guys need 2 years before they get some man strength and perform. Kobe hit his stride in season 3. Hakeem was taken before JOrdan and nobody argues that pick. Who was ready to contribute with Melo and take us to the playoffs? Stein? Frank? Winslow?

We'll all love the pick if it pans out, and we all will hate it. NObody here made the pick. What the big deal here, someone gets to say "hey, i was against the pick all along"? What does that buy you? Emotional protection? Some kind of Credability on the UK to say "Told ya"?

nixluva wrote:

Cartman718 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

callmened wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

callmened wrote:I'll try to articulate my disappointment with the knicks drafting porzingus. It's not that I think he's a good or bad player (I have no idea ). I just need to understand what the knicks are trying to do. They got Melo for 5 yrs and he needs help. Yet this kid won't be ready to help soon. Sounds like they're building for the future..fine. but then why are they signing a 35 yr old David west??

Sounds like phil knew they needed to tear everything down and rebuild. Cool that makes sense but yet they invested in an aging franchise player who makes a lot of money.

I'm more confused than disappointed. At #4 you needed to get a young player who could contribute now. Not a gamble pick. I'd be more ok with this pick if we didn't invest in Melo (with the obvious pressure to win now). You tell me were rebuilding with a youth movement then I'm all in

I don't like this in between feeling

What part of Phil saying from the beginning that the team will be built in free agency and not the draft did you not understand??

That's not the part that I don't understand. Are we rebuilding now or trying to compete with Melo by getting free agents? It sounds like we're in this weird grey area.

We've been doing both since Phil cleaned house. He's been bringing in younger players and pointing towards Free Agency for some vets. It's pretty clear what he's doing. Did guys want an old team with no future? I don't understand the confusion. The Wiz had a mostly young team with an old vet in Pierce. It just helped things along.

except pierce is not getting paid 124 mill. and is opting out this year.

That's fine, but Melo is younger and still in his prime. People act like he's ancient but he's the same age as Lebron. He should have some good years before his next clean up surgery is needed. I don't see Melo as a problem. He's a plus in terms of giving the team a primary scorer for now.

My gut feeling is that Phil was reluctant to bring Anthony back, but had little choice, and was perhaps pushed a bit by Dolan.

The Porzingis pick really is a turning point for the franchise, not necessarily because he might become a great player, but because Phil is signaling that things are changing, and that Anthony is a piece, but not the foundation of the team.

He talked about character and drafting kids with solid backgrounds and support group who were mature players (everyone foolishly thought mature referred to physical maturity...well they were wrong), and he kept to his word in taking Kristaps and General Grant, two guys with great pedigrees, on the court and in their family structures.

Time for Anthony to step up and buy into the system and be the leader that he can be.

This is from Isola:

What we don’t know is Carmelo Anthony’s reaction. Can’t imagine it went over well. Anthony will be 31 at the start of next season, and someone like Porzingis doesn’t help Anthony get any closer to a championship. But with Anthony coming off major knee surgery, the Knicks have to be thinking long-term despite Anthony’s massive contract.

Hopefully Anthony sees the future and wants to become part of it, and that Jackson can create a franchise where you don't build around a single player, but instead build with him.

Nalod wrote:
You say what you wanted but you did not say who that player is that could contribute now and why? YOur more concerned with MeloPhobic fear of Melo's age and that our window is NOW.

We can trade Melo. Things do happen. Don't forget, Tyson Chandler bounced around a bit until he was "Defensive specialist" after years of being a disappointment. WCS as a rookie would not be better than the DPOY tyson we had a few years ago and where did that take us? We had 27 year old melo, Bunch of old guys, Tyson and we won 54 games with little to show for it or a base to build upon.

Some people need a plan, need to see it and cannot live with things not in order. Fear is the underlying emotion here. Im not slamming you, this is far more prevelent than not. If you ever read a book by phil or now anyting about the Zen he follows then you have to know "fear" is handled very differently.

Im not telling you how to live of course, just have to know that Phil is not afraid of failing. That philosophy made him the alltime winningst coach. No coach ever won without great players but many coach's have not won chips with great players too!!!!!

Fans who feel a need to win now because of Melo and his age are "fearful" of this concept. Again, I don't know what Phil is up to but I have read enough to undertand his concept and approach to comment on it. Basically you have to trust a process and be confident that it works. He asked Jordan and Kobe and they reached heights never achieved without it. Phil asked it of himself and won more chips than anyone.

ALso, if you can't name a player with abolute certainty would contribute at a high level to make the playoffs and be part of a contending team then its kind of easy to nit pick. Is it really that important that we draft NOW a player so next year we don't lose as much to better digest the pick we sent to toronto if Zinger is a better long term project? Would you be happy with Iggy (he was an allstar)type player but instead gave up "Dirk" because you were concerned Melo was 31 and toronto has our pick? "Fear of wasting" Melo?

My guess is Phil and Melo have an understanding that could include being open to the triangle and perhaps how to handle a trade scenario if it came to that.

My guess is Phil is not afraid to fail. That is very new in MSG!!

my overall emotion isnt fear...its "WTF" and "confusion"...i have no problem drafting the unknown. i have no problem rebuilding. all the experts are saying this kid is good. GREAT. so why is melo here? lol. he's only blocking his playing time and melo wants to win NOW. thats why were bringing in old guys like d. west. smh.

i thought mudiay could contribute right away. same with WCS, kaminsky etc. i admit that im biased by the players i have seen. the only negative emotion i have about porky is ignorance only because i havent seen him before. i can get over that. my beef is why is melo here!...lol

callmened wrote:

Nalod wrote:
You say what you wanted but you did not say who that player is that could contribute now and why? YOur more concerned with MeloPhobic fear of Melo's age and that our window is NOW.

We can trade Melo. Things do happen. Don't forget, Tyson Chandler bounced around a bit until he was "Defensive specialist" after years of being a disappointment. WCS as a rookie would not be better than the DPOY tyson we had a few years ago and where did that take us? We had 27 year old melo, Bunch of old guys, Tyson and we won 54 games with little to show for it or a base to build upon.

Some people need a plan, need to see it and cannot live with things not in order. Fear is the underlying emotion here. Im not slamming you, this is far more prevelent than not. If you ever read a book by phil or now anyting about the Zen he follows then you have to know "fear" is handled very differently.

Im not telling you how to live of course, just have to know that Phil is not afraid of failing. That philosophy made him the alltime winningst coach. No coach ever won without great players but many coach's have not won chips with great players too!!!!!

Fans who feel a need to win now because of Melo and his age are "fearful" of this concept. Again, I don't know what Phil is up to but I have read enough to undertand his concept and approach to comment on it. Basically you have to trust a process and be confident that it works. He asked Jordan and Kobe and they reached heights never achieved without it. Phil asked it of himself and won more chips than anyone.

ALso, if you can't name a player with abolute certainty would contribute at a high level to make the playoffs and be part of a contending team then its kind of easy to nit pick. Is it really that important that we draft NOW a player so next year we don't lose as much to better digest the pick we sent to toronto if Zinger is a better long term project? Would you be happy with Iggy (he was an allstar)type player but instead gave up "Dirk" because you were concerned Melo was 31 and toronto has our pick? "Fear of wasting" Melo?

My guess is Phil and Melo have an understanding that could include being open to the triangle and perhaps how to handle a trade scenario if it came to that.

My guess is Phil is not afraid to fail. That is very new in MSG!!

my overall emotion isnt fear...its "WTF" and "confusion"...i have no problem drafting the unknown. i have no problem rebuilding. all the experts are saying this kid is good. GREAT. so why is melo here? lol. he's only blocking his playing time and melo wants to win NOW. thats why were bringing in old guys like d. west. smh.

i thought mudiay could contribute right away. same with WCS, kaminsky etc. i admit that im biased by the players i have seen. the only negative emotion i have about porky is ignorance only because i havent seen him before. i can get over that. my beef is why is melo here!...lol

None of those players would have titled the odds in favor of us beating LeBron and the LeBronettes even with some FA signings. We might have won more games out of the gate, but none of them IMO would have gotten us close to really contending. This move was for the post Lebron years. Considering we havent had this high a pick since 1985 (edit), Im glad Phil took a chance on drafting a franchise player.