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If Cleveland wins it all, where does that rank lebron?
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mreinman
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is it possible that he can be considered the best of all time because of how little he won with?

or, will he get dinged because of the lack of competition compared to years past?

GS is a damn good team, but old schoolers will always view 80's (teams) as better.

top 5 of all time
top 10 of all time
best of all time
not top 10
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holfresh
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6/9/2015  1:25 PM
mreinman wrote:
holfresh wrote:
mreinman wrote:
holfresh wrote:
mreinman wrote:
holfresh wrote:
mreinman wrote:
holfresh wrote:
mreinman wrote:
crzymdups wrote:I wouldn't bother ranking Lebron until his career is done - but in his own era, it's hard to argue he was better than Duncan or Kobe - all three guys have two rings a piece in the past 8 years and Duncan and Kobe were older and on their second or third leg of their careers in those eight years, having each won three rings before that.

I can't rank Bron over Duncan or Kobe from his own era.

He deserves a full career and I think he'll certainly be an all-time top ten player when he's done. He might crack the top five by the time he's done, but I don't think he has yet.

if wins this year, top 5 is sealed.

nobody has won with a crappy team. This guy has already been to the finals with the bottom of the barrel teams.

who else has done that?

Allen Iverson, Jason Kidd and Dwight Howard..

true ...

he needs to win it to stand apart

Playing and beating great opponents is what makes you great..LeBron has lost to Duncan twice in three tries..And Duncan wasn't in his prime...

San Antonio had a better team

take Jordan away from the Bulls and they won 55 games (and would have probably won it all if not for Hugh Hollins)

The Heat was favored last year...They were favored against Dallas as well..Thats not greatness..MJ would not have lost to those teams..

was MJ's team a 55 win team without him?

Atlanta Hawks won 60 games..2013 Knicks won 54 games...Denver won 53 games..And what happened to the Bulls without Jordan, bumped in the 2nd round by the Knicks..

try to read the whole thing

was MJ's team a 55 win team without him?


You said they won 55 games without Jordan, what else was there that I missed??
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mreinman
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6/9/2015  1:26 PM
holfresh wrote:
mreinman wrote:
holfresh wrote:
mreinman wrote:
holfresh wrote:
mreinman wrote:
holfresh wrote:
mreinman wrote:
holfresh wrote:
mreinman wrote:
crzymdups wrote:I wouldn't bother ranking Lebron until his career is done - but in his own era, it's hard to argue he was better than Duncan or Kobe - all three guys have two rings a piece in the past 8 years and Duncan and Kobe were older and on their second or third leg of their careers in those eight years, having each won three rings before that.

I can't rank Bron over Duncan or Kobe from his own era.

He deserves a full career and I think he'll certainly be an all-time top ten player when he's done. He might crack the top five by the time he's done, but I don't think he has yet.

if wins this year, top 5 is sealed.

nobody has won with a crappy team. This guy has already been to the finals with the bottom of the barrel teams.

who else has done that?

Allen Iverson, Jason Kidd and Dwight Howard..

true ...

he needs to win it to stand apart

Playing and beating great opponents is what makes you great..LeBron has lost to Duncan twice in three tries..And Duncan wasn't in his prime...

San Antonio had a better team

take Jordan away from the Bulls and they won 55 games (and would have probably won it all if not for Hugh Hollins)

The Heat was favored last year...They were favored against Dallas as well..Thats not greatness..MJ would not have lost to those teams..

was MJ's team a 55 win team without him?

Atlanta Hawks won 60 games..2013 Knicks won 54 games...Denver won 53 games..And what happened to the Bulls without Jordan, bumped in the 2nd round by the Knicks..

try to read the whole thing

was MJ's team a 55 win team without him?


You said they won 55 games without Jordan, what else was there that I missed??

(and would have probably won it all if not for Hugh Hollins)

I think that they were favored to win it all.

so here is what phil is thinking ....
WaltLongmire
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6/9/2015  1:32 PM
holfresh wrote:
WaltLongmire wrote:
holfresh wrote:
WaltLongmire wrote:Winning a title with his present crew would be impressive beyond belief. Mosgov is probably the only other player on this team that can give you a consistent contribution on both ends of the court, even though they don't play him all the time.

The rest of their team has been inconsistent beyond belief, and you they have significant limitations in their respective games.

At this point you only want Smith and Shump catching and shooting, Dellavedova has been inconsistent on offense, especially his J, although he has hit some floaters, Thompson is a ghost on the offensive end unless there is a missed shot and doesn't add anything to the flow of their offense, and Jones is also a limited offensive player who is most effective standing in a corner and hitting the 3 off a James pass.

If you are Cleveland, you hope that the home court changes things for players not named Lebron or Timofey, but if it doesn't, and James can pull off the upset, this will be a truly great achievement- and one that has probably never been witnessed before.

Consistency is in the eyes of the beholder..Shump has been very consistent defensively..His and LeBron's defense sets the tone for the team...


Please read carefully.

Shumpert isn't there for his offense..His value is on the defensive end, is my point...

Might be true, but he was brought into the league as a kind of combo guard, and the Cavs really need another ball handler.

I like Shumpert, and wished he had made it with the Knicks, but as the years went on, certain weaknesses in his game, especially his consistency and his finishing ability at the basket, were really exposed, and I don't think he addressed ANY of his weaknesses during his time on the Knicks. He is essentially the same player now, as he was when we drafted him.

Hope he can add something more to the mix, tonight, and maybe the home court will help him, but I expected much more from him as a player at the time we drafted him.

EnySpree: Can we agree to agree not to mention Phil Jackson and triangle for the rest of our lives?
holfresh
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6/9/2015  1:44 PM    LAST EDITED: 6/9/2015  1:44 PM
What Shump adds you may not be looking for..
Bonn1997
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6/9/2015  2:38 PM    LAST EDITED: 6/9/2015  2:38 PM
mreinman wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
mreinman wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:I'd want him to play at a very high level for more years before I put him in the top 5 and probably top 10 too. He's only 30. Others like Duncan have had hall of fame careers for almost 20 years.

jordan had a pretty short career


Yeah, 15 seasons. If you look at total win shares, Lebron still has a ways to go before he reaches the career contributions of guys like Duncan and Jordan.

if he wins this year then he has 4 rings. 7 finals.

he gets to the finals almost every year no matter what team and he is just hitting 30 years old.

he can retire and already be top 5.


3 rings.
Regardless, I'm simply placing more emphasis than you are on longevity of dominance and total production. I can't put him in the top 5 with 3 rings and well below 200 win shares.
VCoug
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6/9/2015  3:19 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
mreinman wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
mreinman wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:I'd want him to play at a very high level for more years before I put him in the top 5 and probably top 10 too. He's only 30. Others like Duncan have had hall of fame careers for almost 20 years.

jordan had a pretty short career


Yeah, 15 seasons. If you look at total win shares, Lebron still has a ways to go before he reaches the career contributions of guys like Duncan and Jordan.

if he wins this year then he has 4 rings. 7 finals.

he gets to the finals almost every year no matter what team and he is just hitting 30 years old.

he can retire and already be top 5.


3 rings.
Regardless, I'm simply placing more emphasis than you are on longevity of dominance and total production. I can't put him in the top 5 with 3 rings and well below 200 win shares.

He's only 30 years old and is already ranked 14th all time in WS. Barring injury, he'll definitely be passing Moses, Dr. J, and Shaq next year to move up to 11th and could reasonably jump to 8th passing Oscar Robertson, Artis Gilmore, and KG next season. He's also 6th all-time in WS/48. And, unlike Kobe, he didn't get to play next to prime Shaq for 8 years. Even if he retired after the season I don't see how he isn't top 10 and arguably top 5 all time.

Now the joy of my world is in Zion How beautiful if nothing more Than to wait at Zion's door I've never been in love like this before Now let me pray to keep you from The perils that will surely come
mreinman
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6/9/2015  3:19 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
mreinman wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
mreinman wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:I'd want him to play at a very high level for more years before I put him in the top 5 and probably top 10 too. He's only 30. Others like Duncan have had hall of fame careers for almost 20 years.

jordan had a pretty short career


Yeah, 15 seasons. If you look at total win shares, Lebron still has a ways to go before he reaches the career contributions of guys like Duncan and Jordan.

if he wins this year then he has 4 rings. 7 finals.

he gets to the finals almost every year no matter what team and he is just hitting 30 years old.

he can retire and already be top 5.


3 rings.
Regardless, I'm simply placing more emphasis than you are on longevity of dominance and total production. I can't put him in the top 5 with 3 rings and well below 200 win shares.

4 rings (possibly) is certainly HOF worthy and 200 WS's is the precursor for HOF? Its all about rings to me.

so here is what phil is thinking ....
Bonn1997
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6/9/2015  3:34 PM    LAST EDITED: 6/9/2015  3:37 PM
VCoug wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
mreinman wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
mreinman wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:I'd want him to play at a very high level for more years before I put him in the top 5 and probably top 10 too. He's only 30. Others like Duncan have had hall of fame careers for almost 20 years.

jordan had a pretty short career


Yeah, 15 seasons. If you look at total win shares, Lebron still has a ways to go before he reaches the career contributions of guys like Duncan and Jordan.

if he wins this year then he has 4 rings. 7 finals.

he gets to the finals almost every year no matter what team and he is just hitting 30 years old.

he can retire and already be top 5.


3 rings.
Regardless, I'm simply placing more emphasis than you are on longevity of dominance and total production. I can't put him in the top 5 with 3 rings and well below 200 win shares.

He's only 30 years old and is already ranked 14th all time in WS. Barring injury, he'll definitely be passing Moses, Dr. J, and Shaq next year to move up to 11th and could reasonably jump to 8th passing Oscar Robertson, Artis Gilmore, and KG next season. He's also 6th all-time in WS/48. And, unlike Kobe, he didn't get to play next to prime Shaq for 8 years. Even if he retired after the season I don't see how he isn't top 10 and arguably top 5 all time.


Then barring injury, he will make my top 5 many years from now when he does retire. But I thought mreinman was asking about right now (or at the end of this year's playoffs).
Bonn1997
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6/9/2015  3:35 PM    LAST EDITED: 6/9/2015  3:38 PM
mreinman wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
mreinman wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
mreinman wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:I'd want him to play at a very high level for more years before I put him in the top 5 and probably top 10 too. He's only 30. Others like Duncan have had hall of fame careers for almost 20 years.

jordan had a pretty short career


Yeah, 15 seasons. If you look at total win shares, Lebron still has a ways to go before he reaches the career contributions of guys like Duncan and Jordan.

if he wins this year then he has 4 rings. 7 finals.

he gets to the finals almost every year no matter what team and he is just hitting 30 years old.

he can retire and already be top 5.


3 rings.
Regardless, I'm simply placing more emphasis than you are on longevity of dominance and total production. I can't put him in the top 5 with 3 rings and well below 200 win shares.

4 rings (possibly) is certainly HOF worthy and 200 WS's is the precursor for HOF? Its all about rings to me.


You keep saying 4 rings but you realize he has 2 now and they won't give him 2 for this year (though he might deserve it)? If it's all about rings for you, 3 rings probably wouldn't put him in the top 100. I assume you didn't mean that though. HOF is a different conversation than top 5. The HOF has more than 5 people.
mreinman
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6/9/2015  3:41 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
VCoug wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
mreinman wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
mreinman wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:I'd want him to play at a very high level for more years before I put him in the top 5 and probably top 10 too. He's only 30. Others like Duncan have had hall of fame careers for almost 20 years.

jordan had a pretty short career


Yeah, 15 seasons. If you look at total win shares, Lebron still has a ways to go before he reaches the career contributions of guys like Duncan and Jordan.

if he wins this year then he has 4 rings. 7 finals.

he gets to the finals almost every year no matter what team and he is just hitting 30 years old.

he can retire and already be top 5.


3 rings.
Regardless, I'm simply placing more emphasis than you are on longevity of dominance and total production. I can't put him in the top 5 with 3 rings and well below 200 win shares.

He's only 30 years old and is already ranked 14th all time in WS. Barring injury, he'll definitely be passing Moses, Dr. J, and Shaq next year to move up to 11th and could reasonably jump to 8th passing Oscar Robertson, Artis Gilmore, and KG next season. He's also 6th all-time in WS/48. And, unlike Kobe, he didn't get to play next to prime Shaq for 8 years. Even if he retired after the season I don't see how he isn't top 10 and arguably top 5 all time.


Then barring injury, he will make my top 5 many years from now when he does retire. But I thought mreinman was asking about right now.

yeah ... if he wins this series and then gets hit by a bus, he is in my top 5.

Jordan played 13 years on the bulls. Lebron is finishing his 12th year in the league.

Do you think that Jordans 2 years in washington got him into the top 5? Of course not.

Lebron did not have the teammates that Duncan, Bird, Magic, Michael had. Not even close.

so here is what phil is thinking ....
mreinman
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6/9/2015  3:45 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
mreinman wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
mreinman wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
mreinman wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:I'd want him to play at a very high level for more years before I put him in the top 5 and probably top 10 too. He's only 30. Others like Duncan have had hall of fame careers for almost 20 years.

jordan had a pretty short career


Yeah, 15 seasons. If you look at total win shares, Lebron still has a ways to go before he reaches the career contributions of guys like Duncan and Jordan.

if he wins this year then he has 4 rings. 7 finals.

he gets to the finals almost every year no matter what team and he is just hitting 30 years old.

he can retire and already be top 5.


3 rings.
Regardless, I'm simply placing more emphasis than you are on longevity of dominance and total production. I can't put him in the top 5 with 3 rings and well below 200 win shares.

4 rings (possibly) is certainly HOF worthy and 200 WS's is the precursor for HOF? Its all about rings to me.


You keep saying 4 rings but you realize he has 2 now and they won't give him 2 for this year (though he might deserve it)? If it's all about rings for you, 3 rings probably wouldn't put him in the top 100. I assume you didn't mean that though. HOF is a different conversation than top 5. The HOF has more than 5 people.

sorry meant 3 not 4.

I think that this last one would be the clincher being that his team is so bad.

I think that he goes down hill from here and all the rest of his stats will just be for compilation purposes (for people who need longevity)

so here is what phil is thinking ....
holfresh
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6/9/2015  3:48 PM
mreinman wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
VCoug wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
mreinman wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
mreinman wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:I'd want him to play at a very high level for more years before I put him in the top 5 and probably top 10 too. He's only 30. Others like Duncan have had hall of fame careers for almost 20 years.

jordan had a pretty short career


Yeah, 15 seasons. If you look at total win shares, Lebron still has a ways to go before he reaches the career contributions of guys like Duncan and Jordan.

if he wins this year then he has 4 rings. 7 finals.

he gets to the finals almost every year no matter what team and he is just hitting 30 years old.

he can retire and already be top 5.


3 rings.
Regardless, I'm simply placing more emphasis than you are on longevity of dominance and total production. I can't put him in the top 5 with 3 rings and well below 200 win shares.

He's only 30 years old and is already ranked 14th all time in WS. Barring injury, he'll definitely be passing Moses, Dr. J, and Shaq next year to move up to 11th and could reasonably jump to 8th passing Oscar Robertson, Artis Gilmore, and KG next season. He's also 6th all-time in WS/48. And, unlike Kobe, he didn't get to play next to prime Shaq for 8 years. Even if he retired after the season I don't see how he isn't top 10 and arguably top 5 all time.


Then barring injury, he will make my top 5 many years from now when he does retire. But I thought mreinman was asking about right now.

yeah ... if he wins this series and then gets hit by a bus, he is in my top 5.

Jordan played 13 years on the bulls. Lebron is finishing his 12th year in the league.

Do you think that Jordans 2 years in washington got him into the top 5? Of course not.

Lebron did not have the teammates that Duncan, Bird, Magic, jMichael had. Not even close.


That's not an argument..Wade, Bron, and Bosh were the best assembled talent in the league while together..They didn't win at the rate that they themselves projected based in their talents..
mreinman
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6/9/2015  3:55 PM
holfresh wrote:
mreinman wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
VCoug wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
mreinman wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
mreinman wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:I'd want him to play at a very high level for more years before I put him in the top 5 and probably top 10 too. He's only 30. Others like Duncan have had hall of fame careers for almost 20 years.

jordan had a pretty short career


Yeah, 15 seasons. If you look at total win shares, Lebron still has a ways to go before he reaches the career contributions of guys like Duncan and Jordan.

if he wins this year then he has 4 rings. 7 finals.

he gets to the finals almost every year no matter what team and he is just hitting 30 years old.

he can retire and already be top 5.


3 rings.
Regardless, I'm simply placing more emphasis than you are on longevity of dominance and total production. I can't put him in the top 5 with 3 rings and well below 200 win shares.

He's only 30 years old and is already ranked 14th all time in WS. Barring injury, he'll definitely be passing Moses, Dr. J, and Shaq next year to move up to 11th and could reasonably jump to 8th passing Oscar Robertson, Artis Gilmore, and KG next season. He's also 6th all-time in WS/48. And, unlike Kobe, he didn't get to play next to prime Shaq for 8 years. Even if he retired after the season I don't see how he isn't top 10 and arguably top 5 all time.


Then barring injury, he will make my top 5 many years from now when he does retire. But I thought mreinman was asking about right now.

yeah ... if he wins this series and then gets hit by a bus, he is in my top 5.

Jordan played 13 years on the bulls. Lebron is finishing his 12th year in the league.

Do you think that Jordans 2 years in washington got him into the top 5? Of course not.

Lebron did not have the teammates that Duncan, Bird, Magic, jMichael had. Not even close.


That's not an argument..Wade, Bron, and Bosh were the best assembled talent in the league while together..They didn't win at the rate that they themselves projected based in their talents..

"expected" more than 2 rings and 4 finals trips in 4 years?

Year 1 they were in gelling and year 4 they ran into a power house.

so here is what phil is thinking ....
holfresh
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6/9/2015  4:02 PM
LeBron is a great great player..The problem is that he isn't the greatest at anything you have ever seen..He is, however, the best overall package in one individual...Jordan was the best scorer and winner..He brought the best defense and intensity as well..LeBron is not close to the passer Magic or Stockton is ..LeBron don't have the overall basketball gravitas of Larry Bird...He isn't the best rebounder that you have seen..But he is a great player..His two rings were from teams where he assemble the best talent in the league...
VCoug
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6/9/2015  5:05 PM
mreinman wrote:
holfresh wrote:
mreinman wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
VCoug wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
mreinman wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
mreinman wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:I'd want him to play at a very high level for more years before I put him in the top 5 and probably top 10 too. He's only 30. Others like Duncan have had hall of fame careers for almost 20 years.

jordan had a pretty short career


Yeah, 15 seasons. If you look at total win shares, Lebron still has a ways to go before he reaches the career contributions of guys like Duncan and Jordan.

if he wins this year then he has 4 rings. 7 finals.

he gets to the finals almost every year no matter what team and he is just hitting 30 years old.

he can retire and already be top 5.


3 rings.
Regardless, I'm simply placing more emphasis than you are on longevity of dominance and total production. I can't put him in the top 5 with 3 rings and well below 200 win shares.

He's only 30 years old and is already ranked 14th all time in WS. Barring injury, he'll definitely be passing Moses, Dr. J, and Shaq next year to move up to 11th and could reasonably jump to 8th passing Oscar Robertson, Artis Gilmore, and KG next season. He's also 6th all-time in WS/48. And, unlike Kobe, he didn't get to play next to prime Shaq for 8 years. Even if he retired after the season I don't see how he isn't top 10 and arguably top 5 all time.


Then barring injury, he will make my top 5 many years from now when he does retire. But I thought mreinman was asking about right now.

yeah ... if he wins this series and then gets hit by a bus, he is in my top 5.

Jordan played 13 years on the bulls. Lebron is finishing his 12th year in the league.

Do you think that Jordans 2 years in washington got him into the top 5? Of course not.

Lebron did not have the teammates that Duncan, Bird, Magic, jMichael had. Not even close.


That's not an argument..Wade, Bron, and Bosh were the best assembled talent in the league while together..They didn't win at the rate that they themselves projected based in their talents..

"expected" more than 2 rings and 4 finals trips in 4 years?

Year 1 they were in gelling and year 4 they ran into a power house.

Plus, Bosh has always been a little overrated and Wade completely broke down after their 1st year together.

Now the joy of my world is in Zion How beautiful if nothing more Than to wait at Zion's door I've never been in love like this before Now let me pray to keep you from The perils that will surely come
mreinman
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6/9/2015  5:08 PM
holfresh wrote:LeBron is a great great player..The problem is that he isn't the greatest at anything you have ever seen..He is, however, the best overall package in one individual...Jordan was the best scorer and winner..He brought the best defense and intensity as well..LeBron is not close to the passer Magic or Stockton is ..LeBron don't have the overall basketball gravitas of Larry Bird...He isn't the best rebounder that you have seen..But he is a great player..His two rings were from teams where he assemble the best talent in the league...

if he wins this year, where do you rank him?

so here is what phil is thinking ....
jbeachboy
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6/9/2015  6:35 PM
it would rank him right below jordan, bird, and magic
Nalod
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6/9/2015  11:53 PM
Jordan never had JR Smith!!

Serously, if Lebron can carry them to this championship will earn some serious points in Nalod's book.
crzymdups
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6/9/2015  11:53 PM
Ok, I take it back, Lebron's performance tonight was astounding.


Jordan never did what Lebron is doing right now.

¿ △ ?
Nalod
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6/10/2015  12:15 AM
I think when your somewhere in the top 5, ranking is kind of tough. Thru three games this is some sort of Heroic journey and very "Jordanesque" in not just the mental focus, but also physically holding up.

The level of leadership is beyond Jordan, and not that he was not capable, but it was never called for as the Bulls were a deep excellent roster! Lebron is doing some super freaky leadership thing I don't think has been done before.

They not out of the woods yet, but if not for the first game lapse the'd be up 3-0!!!!

Warriors are not playing badly either!!!!

Jordan's 6-0 perfection in the finals is a thing of beauty. Russells 11 chips in 13 years is the golden standard. Kobe never had to do what Lebron is trying to do. Im rooting for lebron to forge his legacy.

Its not Russells, or jordans, but something different. Thats even better!
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If Cleveland wins it all, where does that rank lebron?
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