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Kaminsky vs Stein
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mreinman
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5/31/2015  9:37 PM
blkexec wrote:
WaltLongmire wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
I don't know how well analytics translate from the ncaa/international to the nba. I generally use the eye test myself. This was one measure that blkexec cited and I went to the site and they had Mudiay rated very high. Also, Hinkie is probably more familiar with Mudiay than other gms.


Im new to this analytic stuff.....but it seems like a tool that is quickly spreading around the nba. If thats true then Mudiays stock can only go up.....which is good news across the board. Maybe russell or Ok4 drops. Maybe Phil is forced to draft Mudiay. Eitherway its a win....win for the Kaminsky and Stein hatters....or whoever has them both ranked below the 4th pick. It helps Phil to identify the BPA....especially in Mudiay's case since he only has a small sample size. In time we will see if analytics is worth the hype. For now its working in our favor......sitting at pick 4. I actually look at this draft as a top 4 now.....based on the analytic results. I only saw a top 3 originally. ....

the top 3 is virtually guaranteed. the need to sell news stories is the only reason that you will hear otherwise.

so here is what phil is thinking ....
AUTOADVERT
BRIGGS
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5/31/2015  9:37 PM
Yeah the analytics "could see" willie stein being pushed all around the court by a 6-5 guy while his 33 minute effort in the biggest game of his life produced 2 points and 5 rebounds on 1-4 from the floor. On the other hand frank Kaminsky the bust was taking on 5. Seven footers and put up 21-12 and his team won
RIP Crushalot😞
crzymdups
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5/31/2015  9:39 PM
BRIGGS wrote:Yeah the analytics "could see" willie stein being pushed all around the court by a 6-5 guy while his 33 minute effort in the biggest game of his life produced 2 points and 5 rebounds on 1-4 from the floor. On the other hand frank Kaminsky the bust was taking on 5. Seven footers and put up 21-12 and his team won

Hey Briggs, the Knicks beat the Spurs in March but for some reason the analytics guys think the Spurs are better. I think it's because analytics don't usually just harp on one game over and over and over again.

¿ △ ?
nixluva
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5/31/2015  9:49 PM
IMO those analytics mean next to nothing when it comes to Mudiay and they're a bit hard to apply in the NCAA as well. The NBA is a common league so the metrics actually mean something. You are talking about a set group of players and level of competition in the NBA. No one would use NBDL or EURO stats to try and make any serious predictions. The CBA and NCAA are completely unreliable for that kind of advanced metric IMO. The strength of schedule in college can have a huge impact. I just wouldn't trust it. Numbers have some importance when dealing with other leagues but you have to really jump through hoops in order to evaluate their meaning.
blkexec
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5/31/2015  10:19 PM
BRIGGS wrote:Yeah the analytics "could see" willie stein being pushed all around the court by a 6-5 guy while his 33 minute effort in the biggest game of his life produced 2 points and 5 rebounds on 1-4 from the floor. On the other hand frank Kaminsky the bust was taking on 5. Seven footers and put up 21-12 and his team won

I can't stop laughing.....

Born in Brooklyn, Raised in Queens, Lives in Maryland. The future is bright, I'm a Knicks fan for life!
JrZyHuStLa
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6/1/2015  7:44 AM    LAST EDITED: 6/1/2015  7:44 AM
It's generally easier for an offensive player to develop good defensive skills than a defensive player developing good offensive skills.

You just don't draft in the top 5 for defense. If the player comes with a defensive skill set, then you consider that as an added incentive.

The draft is one of the few areas where defense takes a lesser priority. Offensive polish, physical attributes, potential and NBA readiness trump a prospect's defensive skills.

This is why you do not draft WCS at 4.

That is a complete disaster.

Bonn1997
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6/1/2015  9:07 AM
blkexec wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
blkexec wrote:For those into analytics.....Found this on a jazz forum.

The hits on Kaminsky just keep coming!

http://jazzfanz.com/showthread.php?18108-Following-potential-2015-draftees/page435

Layne Vashro, who has some respect among analytical types as a draft-pick modeler has his as-of-now forecasts up and available here.

I'm not endorsing or criticizing his modeling. I just thought it might add a bit to the conversation. In my checking of previous years' results, he's had successes and failures, but there seems to be enough there to at least make it a point of consideration.

There's more to his forecasts that you can look at yourself, but one of the things he does is give odds of players reaching various levels in their top NBA season: bust, bench, starter, stud, star (based on win shares). If he turns out to be accurate, it's good we're in the Western Conference. The likelihood of getting a decent contributor drops off a cliff after #13. Here's his odds:

Okafor -- bust 2%, bench 9%, starter 26%, stud 23%, star 40%

Russell -- bust 1%, bench 1%, starter 24%, stud 33%, star 42%

Mudiay -- bust 0%, bench 1%, starter 27%, stud 34%, star 38%

Towns -- bust 1%, bench 6%, starter 31%, stud 34%, star 28%

Johnson -- bust 3%, bench 11%, starter 40%, stud 20%, star 27%

Hezonja -- bust 8%, bench 4%, starter 63%, stud 12%, star 13%

Porzingis -- bust 73%, bench 5%, starter 19%, stud 2%, star 0%

WCS -- bust 3%, bench 9%, starter 29%, stud 46%, star 13%

Oubre -- bust 1%, bench 12%, starter 56%, stud 18%, star 13%

Turner -- bust 20%, bench 18%, starter 38%, stud 15%, star 10%

Looney -- bust 13%, bench 23%, starter 44%, stud 17%, star 3%

Winslow -- bust 35%, bench 18%, starter 35%, stud 8%, star 4%

Kaminsky -- bust 23%, bench 30%, starter 33%, stud 12%, star 2%


Only one other player (Christian Wood) is rated more than a 26% chance to be better than a bust or a bench player in their best year. Here's the probability he has for bust/bench outcomes respectively for some of the players that may be of interest here:

Booker -- 90/4
LeVert -- 65/16
Harrell -- 67/23
Portis -- 65/23
J. Anderson -- 75/12
Grant -- 72/19
Lyles -- 77/15
D. Wright -- 50/25
Dunn -- 49/37

Thanks. I found Vashro's site and he actually has Mudiay as having the highest chance of being a star at 76%. I think the Jazz post has Winslow's projections posted under Mudiay. I tried copying his chart but it didn't look right. Here is the link:http://nyloncalculus.com/stats/layne-vashros-draft-projection-tools/

If Mudiays analytics are that high then i can see philly taking him over Russell.

I just realized Kaminsky has the highest bench percentage. ....gotta keep the Kaminsky vs Stein debate going.


it's interesting info. I don't know how he could get this from 12 mediocre games in China though.
newyorker4ever
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6/1/2015  9:50 AM
blkexec wrote:Since these guys will be linked together during their NBA career, thanks to multiple thread discussions by well respected UK members, I figured it deserves it's own thread.

Instead of using my inexperience NBA drafting analysis skills, why not copy and paste the latest information from people much smarter than me, who does this for a living.

May 31st Mock Draft (Bleacher Report)

Stein #6
Kaminsky #13

I guess I'm not the only one that sees Stein's value at the NBA level. Not sure how somebody ranked #6 would be a reach at #4. If Phil wants Stein via trade, he only has 1 or 2 teams to trade with, before he's off the board. Giving Kaminsky his credit, he moved up a whopping 3 slots from 16 to 13. I believe this is the correct range for these guys and selecting Kaminsky at #4 is the classic definition of a reach.

Stein has some skills that will transfer to the NBA as far as defense, hands and agility. Very difficult to find that combination in a 7 footer. Most defensive bigs either don't have good hands or terrible lateral quickness, and lacks agility.

John Wall is one of the fastest nba players in the league. How many 7 footers currently in the league right now, can play full court defense on an elite guard? Imagine how he will be in 3 years, after going through NBA workouts and strength training. I would like to see WCS play Mudiay 1 on 1. Mudiay is the BPA at 4, but Steins defense could be more impactful than Mudiay's offense in a constrained triangle system, where elite PG's are not necessary.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2476720-nba-draft-2015-1st-round-mock-draft-predictions-and-prospects-who-will-shine

Willie Cauley-Stein has the highest floor of any player projected to go in the top 10 because of his elite defensive skills.

Cauley-Stein is a perfect center for today's NBA, which requires more athleticism and the ability to play away from the basket. You don't want him touching the ball outside the post, but if his team needs a defensive stop, there's nowhere he can't make it.

In March, Chris Herring of the Wall Street Journal noted how opposing teams avoided using a pick-and-roll offense because of Cauley-Stein:

Opposing teams often abandon the pick-and-roll against Kentucky because Cauley-Stein’s quickness and ability to defend guards as well as centers allow the Wildcats to switch without being at a disadvantage. Cauley-Stein often guards the opposing team’s best scorer, regardless of position. The most recent example: He limited Auburn point guard K.T. Harrell, the SEC’s leading scorer, to 1-of-12 shooting.

Because Cauley-Stein is a limited offensive player, never averaging more than 8.9 points per game in three seasons at Kentucky, he has to go to a team where scoring isn't an issue.

The Sacramento Kings don't have that problem, averaging over 101.3 points per game last season. The problem is they gave up 105 points per game. Cauley-Stein projects as a fantastic role player in the NBA because of his defensive versatility, with the potential to get better if he develops a consistent offensive game.

Even with a limited offensive ceiling, Cauley-Stein should have no problem being a solid starter on a playoff team the second he steps into the NBA.


I thought this was gonna be a Kaminsky vs WCS thread/post but it seems like a WCS thread/post.
nixluva
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6/1/2015  10:14 AM
JrZyHuStLa wrote:It's generally easier for an offensive player to develop good defensive skills than a defensive player developing good offensive skills.

You just don't draft in the top 5 for defense. If the player comes with a defensive skill set, then you consider that as an added incentive.

The draft is one of the few areas where defense takes a lesser priority. Offensive polish, physical attributes, potential and NBA readiness trump a prospect's defensive skills.

This is why you do not draft WCS at 4.

That is a complete disaster.

Patrick Ewing, Dwight Howard, Tyson Chandler were drafted for defense 1st.

mreinman
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6/1/2015  10:16 AM
nixluva wrote:
JrZyHuStLa wrote:It's generally easier for an offensive player to develop good defensive skills than a defensive player developing good offensive skills.

You just don't draft in the top 5 for defense. If the player comes with a defensive skill set, then you consider that as an added incentive.

The draft is one of the few areas where defense takes a lesser priority. Offensive polish, physical attributes, potential and NBA readiness trump a prospect's defensive skills.

This is why you do not draft WCS at 4.

That is a complete disaster.

Patrick Ewing, Dwight Howard, Tyson Chandler were drafted for defense 1st.

marcus camby

so here is what phil is thinking ....
crzymdups
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6/1/2015  10:19 AM
http://knickerblogger.net/what-if-with-the-4th-pick-the-knicks-draft-frank-kaminsky/
¿ △ ?
holfresh
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6/1/2015  10:31 AM    LAST EDITED: 6/1/2015  10:35 AM
JrZyHuStLa wrote:It's generally easier for an offensive player to develop good defensive skills than a defensive player developing good offensive skills.

You just don't draft in the top 5 for defense. If the player comes with a defensive skill set, then you consider that as an added incentive.

The draft is one of the few areas where defense takes a lesser priority. Offensive polish, physical attributes, potential and NBA readiness trump a prospect's defensive skills.

This is why you do not draft WCS at 4.

That is a complete disaster.

Not true..At least when I think of all the players that I know came up..The defensive player was usually the one that improved on the offensive end..Ewing, Dream, Butler, Mase, Oak, Alvin Robertson, Mourning, Dumars, can continue to run a list of guys u may not have heard...But thinking of the other way around, I having trouble thinking of one..

holfresh
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6/1/2015  10:38 AM    LAST EDITED: 6/1/2015  10:38 AM
But u can also say it's the case that all players generally get better offensively at they move towards their primes...They work harder on their offensive games..
crzymdups
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6/1/2015  10:41 AM
mreinman wrote:
nixluva wrote:
JrZyHuStLa wrote:It's generally easier for an offensive player to develop good defensive skills than a defensive player developing good offensive skills.

You just don't draft in the top 5 for defense. If the player comes with a defensive skill set, then you consider that as an added incentive.

The draft is one of the few areas where defense takes a lesser priority. Offensive polish, physical attributes, potential and NBA readiness trump a prospect's defensive skills.

This is why you do not draft WCS at 4.

That is a complete disaster.

Patrick Ewing, Dwight Howard, Tyson Chandler were drafted for defense 1st.

marcus camby

Camby was thought of as a complete player at UMass and then disappointed at first in the NBA. It wasn't til he got to the Knicks that he sort of reinvented himself as a defensive blocks and rebounds guy. As I recall, Camby's lack of a mid-range shot didn't seem to weigh down the massive positives he brought to the Knicks offense via offensive rebounds, putbacks, screens, etc.

Basketball is a team sport - you can have some guys who are good at one thing, but not another - as long as they complement one another.

Melo has played with "defense first" centers for almost his entire career - Marcus Camby in Denver and Tyson Chandler in NY. He's done far far better when he's had one of those guys. Melo's insane plus level offense that draws double teams allows guys like Chandler and Camby to get easy open looks either via lobs or being wide open under the hoop or getting offensive rebounds.

Melo has never actually had success playing with another jumpshooting big - not nearly the level of success he's had with the Chandlers, Kmarts, Cambys and Nenes of the world.

I think Melo does best with a rugged defensive squad around him. It's why I've advocated adding guys like WCS, Lance Stephenson, maybe even Rondo. He's never played well with finesse bigs like Bargnani, Amar'e, etc. I don't see that changing with Kaminsky.

¿ △ ?
mreinman
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6/1/2015  10:45 AM
crzymdups wrote:
mreinman wrote:
nixluva wrote:
JrZyHuStLa wrote:It's generally easier for an offensive player to develop good defensive skills than a defensive player developing good offensive skills.

You just don't draft in the top 5 for defense. If the player comes with a defensive skill set, then you consider that as an added incentive.

The draft is one of the few areas where defense takes a lesser priority. Offensive polish, physical attributes, potential and NBA readiness trump a prospect's defensive skills.

This is why you do not draft WCS at 4.

That is a complete disaster.

Patrick Ewing, Dwight Howard, Tyson Chandler were drafted for defense 1st.

marcus camby

Camby was thought of as a complete player at UMass and then disappointed at first in the NBA. It wasn't til he got to the Knicks that he sort of reinvented himself as a defensive blocks and rebounds guy. As I recall, Camby's lack of a mid-range shot didn't seem to weigh down the massive positives he brought to the Knicks offense via offensive rebounds, putbacks, screens, etc.

Basketball is a team sport - you can have some guys who are good at one thing, but not another - as long as they complement one another.

Melo has played with "defense first" centers for almost his entire career - Marcus Camby in Denver and Tyson Chandler in NY. He's done far far better when he's had one of those guys. Melo's insane plus level offense that draws double teams allows guys like Chandler and Camby to get easy open looks either via lobs or being wide open under the hoop or getting offensive rebounds.

Melo has never actually had success playing with another jumpshooting big - not nearly the level of success he's had with the Chandlers, Kmarts, Cambys and Nenes of the world.

I think Melo does best with a rugged defensive squad around him. It's why I've advocated adding guys like WCS, Lance Stephenson, maybe even Rondo. He's never played well with finesse bigs like Bargnani, Amar'e, etc. I don't see that changing with Kaminsky.

good post (if we are still trying to plugin to melo)

so here is what phil is thinking ....
crzymdups
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6/1/2015  10:55 AM
mreinman wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
mreinman wrote:
nixluva wrote:
JrZyHuStLa wrote:It's generally easier for an offensive player to develop good defensive skills than a defensive player developing good offensive skills.

You just don't draft in the top 5 for defense. If the player comes with a defensive skill set, then you consider that as an added incentive.

The draft is one of the few areas where defense takes a lesser priority. Offensive polish, physical attributes, potential and NBA readiness trump a prospect's defensive skills.

This is why you do not draft WCS at 4.

That is a complete disaster.

Patrick Ewing, Dwight Howard, Tyson Chandler were drafted for defense 1st.

marcus camby

Camby was thought of as a complete player at UMass and then disappointed at first in the NBA. It wasn't til he got to the Knicks that he sort of reinvented himself as a defensive blocks and rebounds guy. As I recall, Camby's lack of a mid-range shot didn't seem to weigh down the massive positives he brought to the Knicks offense via offensive rebounds, putbacks, screens, etc.

Basketball is a team sport - you can have some guys who are good at one thing, but not another - as long as they complement one another.

Melo has played with "defense first" centers for almost his entire career - Marcus Camby in Denver and Tyson Chandler in NY. He's done far far better when he's had one of those guys. Melo's insane plus level offense that draws double teams allows guys like Chandler and Camby to get easy open looks either via lobs or being wide open under the hoop or getting offensive rebounds.

Melo has never actually had success playing with another jumpshooting big - not nearly the level of success he's had with the Chandlers, Kmarts, Cambys and Nenes of the world.

I think Melo does best with a rugged defensive squad around him. It's why I've advocated adding guys like WCS, Lance Stephenson, maybe even Rondo. He's never played well with finesse bigs like Bargnani, Amar'e, etc. I don't see that changing with Kaminsky.

good post (if we are still trying to plugin to melo)

it wouldn't have been my first choice to build around Melo - but he's signed for 4 more years at $100M or so. I'm assuming we're building around him as the focal point until we're not. if next season is a total total disaster, maybe melo asks for a trade. i don't think there is any chance in hell we trade him this summer. i think the plan is to build around melo and try to compete with him...

¿ △ ?
holfresh
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6/1/2015  11:07 AM
crzymdups wrote:
mreinman wrote:
nixluva wrote:
JrZyHuStLa wrote:It's generally easier for an offensive player to develop good defensive skills than a defensive player developing good offensive skills.

You just don't draft in the top 5 for defense. If the player comes with a defensive skill set, then you consider that as an added incentive.

The draft is one of the few areas where defense takes a lesser priority. Offensive polish, physical attributes, potential and NBA readiness trump a prospect's defensive skills.

This is why you do not draft WCS at 4.

That is a complete disaster.

Patrick Ewing, Dwight Howard, Tyson Chandler were drafted for defense 1st.

marcus camby

Camby was thought of as a complete player at UMass and then disappointed at first in the NBA. It wasn't til he got to the Knicks that he sort of reinvented himself as a defensive blocks and rebounds guy. As I recall, Camby's lack of a mid-range shot didn't seem to weigh down the massive positives he brought to the Knicks offense via offensive rebounds, putbacks, screens, etc.

Basketball is a team sport - you can have some guys who are good at one thing, but not another - as long as they complement one another.

Melo has played with "defense first" centers for almost his entire career - Marcus Camby in Denver and Tyson Chandler in NY. He's done far far better when he's had one of those guys. Melo's insane plus level offense that draws double teams allows guys like Chandler and Camby to get easy open looks either via lobs or being wide open under the hoop or getting offensive rebounds.

Melo has never actually had success playing with another jumpshooting big - not nearly the level of success he's had with the Chandlers, Kmarts, Cambys and Nenes of the world.

I think Melo does best with a rugged defensive squad around him. It's why I've advocated adding guys like WCS, Lance Stephenson, maybe even Rondo. He's never played well with finesse bigs like Bargnani, Amar'e, etc. I don't see that changing with Kaminsky.


He hasn't actually played with any jump shooting bigs...Amare has been hurt, so you can't count him...So you really can't say...Melo has been successful with others shooters like Billups and JR on the team..So where that individual is big or small should not matter, depends on the team that is constructed..
Knicks1969
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6/1/2015  11:08 AM
nixluva wrote:
JrZyHuStLa wrote:It's generally easier for an offensive player to develop good defensive skills than a defensive player developing good offensive skills.

You just don't draft in the top 5 for defense. If the player comes with a defensive skill set, then you consider that as an added incentive.

The draft is one of the few areas where defense takes a lesser priority. Offensive polish, physical attributes, potential and NBA readiness trump a prospect's defensive skills.

This is why you do not draft WCS at 4.

That is a complete disaster.

Patrick Ewing, Dwight Howard, Tyson Chandler were drafted for defense 1st.

Specifically, Howard. He had no clue on offense, but got better at it.

Thank God Fisher is no longer our coach, now let's get Calderon out of here:)
Knicks1969
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6/1/2015  11:11 AM
holfresh wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
mreinman wrote:
nixluva wrote:
JrZyHuStLa wrote:It's generally easier for an offensive player to develop good defensive skills than a defensive player developing good offensive skills.

You just don't draft in the top 5 for defense. If the player comes with a defensive skill set, then you consider that as an added incentive.

The draft is one of the few areas where defense takes a lesser priority. Offensive polish, physical attributes, potential and NBA readiness trump a prospect's defensive skills.

This is why you do not draft WCS at 4.

That is a complete disaster.

Patrick Ewing, Dwight Howard, Tyson Chandler were drafted for defense 1st.

marcus camby

Camby was thought of as a complete player at UMass and then disappointed at first in the NBA. It wasn't til he got to the Knicks that he sort of reinvented himself as a defensive blocks and rebounds guy. As I recall, Camby's lack of a mid-range shot didn't seem to weigh down the massive positives he brought to the Knicks offense via offensive rebounds, putbacks, screens, etc.

Basketball is a team sport - you can have some guys who are good at one thing, but not another - as long as they complement one another.

Melo has played with "defense first" centers for almost his entire career - Marcus Camby in Denver and Tyson Chandler in NY. He's done far far better when he's had one of those guys. Melo's insane plus level offense that draws double teams allows guys like Chandler and Camby to get easy open looks either via lobs or being wide open under the hoop or getting offensive rebounds.

Melo has never actually had success playing with another jumpshooting big - not nearly the level of success he's had with the Chandlers, Kmarts, Cambys and Nenes of the world.

I think Melo does best with a rugged defensive squad around him. It's why I've advocated adding guys like WCS, Lance Stephenson, maybe even Rondo. He's never played well with finesse bigs like Bargnani, Amar'e, etc. I don't see that changing with Kaminsky.


He hasn't actually played with any jump shooting bigs...Amare has been hurt, so you can't count him...So you really can't say...Melo has been successful with others shooters like Billups and JR on the team..So where that individual is big or small should not matter, depends on the team that is constructed..

Carmelo did fairly well playing with a big like Nene; Amare's style of basketball just did not fit with Carmelo. He was a horrific passer; poor defender,and he was not that good of a shot blocker

Thank God Fisher is no longer our coach, now let's get Calderon out of here:)
crzymdups
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6/1/2015  11:14 AM
Knicks1969 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
JrZyHuStLa wrote:It's generally easier for an offensive player to develop good defensive skills than a defensive player developing good offensive skills.

You just don't draft in the top 5 for defense. If the player comes with a defensive skill set, then you consider that as an added incentive.

The draft is one of the few areas where defense takes a lesser priority. Offensive polish, physical attributes, potential and NBA readiness trump a prospect's defensive skills.

This is why you do not draft WCS at 4.

That is a complete disaster.

Patrick Ewing, Dwight Howard, Tyson Chandler were drafted for defense 1st.

Specifically, Howard. He had no clue on offense, but got better at it.

Howard is a physical beast on a different level than Stein. He's actually not even all that tall - I think 6'9" without shoes? - he's just insanely jump out of the buildingin athletic... or he was before his back injuries...

¿ △ ?
Kaminsky vs Stein

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