GustavBahler wrote:All depends on how good our D is next season IMO. Fisher has to make it a priority from day one.

*whispers* "willie cauley stein willie cauley stein willie cauley stein willie cauley stein willie cauley stein"

GustavBahler wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:All depends on how good our D is next season IMO. Fisher has to make it a priority from day one.

*whispers* "willie cauley stein willie cauley stein willie cauley stein willie cauley stein willie cauley stein"

Never had so much trouble deciding who the Knicks should pick. Not suggesting that we cant find a good or even great player at 4, only that after 3 it becomes more of a gamble. Still dont know who we should pick. Might not know until the first 3 picks are on the board.

GustavBahler wrote:All depends on how good our D is next season IMO. Fisher has to make it a priority from day one.

LMAO..Thats the first thing he said and pretend to do on the 1st day of training camp. In fact the first wk of training camp, it was all about defense

Good luck trying to focus on defense then trying to teach 9 new players the triangle, a difficult system no one has played in.

GustavBahler wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:All depends on how good our D is next season IMO. Fisher has to make it a priority from day one.

LMAO..Thats the first thing he said and pretend to do on the 1st day of training camp. In fact the first wk of training camp, it was all about defense

Good luck trying to focus on defense then trying to teach 9 new players the triangle, a difficult system no one has played in.

What a pissy little comment. Learning the triangle has absolutely nothing to do with a commitment to defense. We dont know what this roster is going to look like, what their strengths and weaknesses will be. You seem to be suggesting that whoever we sign wont have the mental makeup to walk and chew bubble gum at the same time.

What's good to note is that when we made the trade, the guys we brought in figured out the Triangle and played hard on D in no time at all. Shved figured out the Triangle pretty fast. It's not as hard as some make it sound. You've gotta want to learn and change your game and I don't think the players we had really wanted to put forth the effort.

As for defense Phil is intent that defense is going to be focused on but you also need defensive talent to make it really happen. Phil has to being in defensive players who can make the defense a strength.

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:All depends on how good our D is next season IMO. Fisher has to make it a priority from day one.

LMAO..Thats the first thing he said and pretend to do on the 1st day of training camp. In fact the first wk of training camp, it was all about defense

Good luck trying to focus on defense then trying to teach 9 new players the triangle, a difficult system no one has played in.

What a pissy little comment. Learning the triangle has absolutely nothing to do with a commitment to defense. We dont know what this roster is going to look like, what their strengths and weaknesses will be. You seem to be suggesting that whoever we sign wont have the mental makeup to walk and chew bubble gum at the same time.

What's good to note is that when we made the trade, the guys we brought in figured out the Triangle and played hard on D in no time at all. Shved figured out the Triangle pretty fast. It's not as hard as some make it sound. You've gotta want to learn and change your game and I don't think the players we had really wanted to put forth the effort.

As for defense Phil is intent that defense is going to be focused on but you also need defensive talent to make it really happen. Phil has to being in defensive players who can make the defense a strength.

How can you say the players phil brought in, learned the triangle pretty quick, and proceeded to have losing streaks of 7, 10, 16. Talent means nothing without direction. You can play hard all day, but if you are not playing smart it's completely pointless

The young players phil brought in have no identity, they were players that haven't establish themselves and were way over there head in the roles handed to them.

When you bring in veteran FA who have 4 or more yrs experience and are use to playing a certain way (amre, shump, JR for example) the learning curb is much more difficult cause you took them out of their comfort zone.

As you can see Shump and JR are flying up and down the court in a more free flowing offense, there playing solid Defense and are not overwhelmed with am I in the right spot, should I shoot, should I pass.

You fail to consistently acknowledge that phil jackson was a triangle GURU, he study the mental aspect, the physical aspect, and did a lot of research. Derek fisher played 5 yrs for phil and you think he has 1/5 of the knowledge phil has.

You are fooling the hell out of yourself if you think your going to throw some talent on the roster and POOF!! Fisher is going to be good coach. thats not being realistic.

2. The Triangle isn't really hard if you aren't resisting. Players have to want to learn to execute and play within the offense. JR and Shump didn't fully buy in. Doesn't matter how many years a player has been in the league. It's really about a players will to learn what High School and College kids are able to learn. Good for JR and Shump that they are in a great spot now. They have less responsibility being on a team with so much talent. For both of them there's less thinking which is a great luxury to have when you're on a talented team with Lebron making the game easy for you.

3. Fish and his staff are well equipped to teach the Triangle. Phil hand picked these men. He knows what they know. You are only guessing about what they know and how good they are at teaching the system. Phil is the judge of whether or not his staff is coaching properly. Phil said they met after every game and went over things so if there was a problem i'm pretty sure Phil would point it out.

4. You seem to be mocking the Triangle with your mentioning of JR and Shump "not overwhelmed with am I in the right spot, should I shoot, should I pass." I think this is off base. Phil has won many titles teaching players to play this way. JR and Shump had more responsibility in the Triangle and they clearly didn't want it. Now they mostly just have to think "SHOOT" which is of course much easier. Doesn't excuse their lack of effort and sour attitude in NY.

fwk00 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

fwk00 wrote:The attacks on Phil are utter bullshat. beat that dead horse all you like.

Next year's team will be better than this year's team and this year's team with some health and luck would have won 30-32 games or so - Either very close games or games in which we had Gallo, Shved, Bargs, Thomas, Amundson, and a healthy Melo available. You cannot judge the talent of this year's team on the manufactured record.

That said, next year we start with Melo at the four backed by at least Amundson (who will be resigned - he's found a home).

Unless there is a big surprise, Mudiay or Russell will be coming in at the lead guard position to complement and eventually supplant Gallo (who will retire a Knick), Shved (who also found a home), Calderon (unless traded).

One of Butler (won't stick around post-Thibodeau)/Middleton/Carroll will get signed (we can offer playing time, stardom, and cold cash). Swing forwards will include Tenacious, Early and one or two of Acey/Thomas/Sanchez/other.

DeAndre Jordan, Munroe, or Robin Lopez will be backed by Cole Aldrich.

There's no guarantee that team can't make the playoffs but on paper and barring injuries they are plenty capable of doing so.

Butler is a RFA and has no say on the matter
Middleton is an RFA and has no say on the matter
Deandre Jordan is an RFA and has no say on the matter.
Robin Lopez scks
Greg Monroe is reasonable but not earth shattering he will be an upgrade if he lands here.
We have not signed Schved and he still has ? marks as does Galloway
and if the honest plan is to bring back Admundson to be in a top 9 role--overall we wont be very exciting we may not be a playoff team and we limit our upside.

The team you mentioned would probably be beat handily be teams like Philly Milwaukee Boston Cleveland Chicago Atlanta and the only upside player you have is a PG who will have NO athletic running mates. This team has little chance for anything other than continued 7-11 seeding Y-Y.

A lot of things go into signing someone. The player, RFA or not, can sign an offer sheet from another team and make it loud and clear that they want out. They may be represented by an agent who could help that team sign someone else, and so on.
Teams also have budgets. If a contract that's offered is too rich for that team's blood then that also is a door-opener.

Most teams are owned by billionaires so money isn't the issue. The issue is operational - budgeting sensibly within the rules. Money, ego, opportunity, and roster debt all play into it.

Butler plays for a team that has a lot of expensive long term contracts. The owners are trying to screw their coach so he can't sign one of the open coaching positions. There is no upside for next year and the year after the whole team is ready for the retirement home. If you're Butler and have an agent with a brain, you're looking for offer sheets out.

The question in Milwaukee is how much are they willing to sign Middleton for? Same deal with Carroll in Atlanta and Deandre in LA. The players and agents know its nothing but business. The teams will trade them in a heartbeat once they falter.

I keep thinking about Parsons last year.

Phil may sign or trade for someone you think sucks. That's true but then even if he signs someone you think is unobtainable you'll be ready to condemn the acquisition the minute the player hits a dry spell.

Shved and Amundson are probably locks to be offered contracts. It's all about great chemistry. Doesn't mean they'll sign but chances are good.

I think this offseason is much different than those in the past with the massive cap rising coming. You are buying a contract that will have significant discount to market.

Im a little scared of what Phil might think is good or bad in a player right now. I don't think it makes any sense to keep an Admundson. You want guys who will grow together--no team will beat "the process" of retooling. Admundson(while a hard worker) had some very serious consistency issues after starting off well. Id rather have a younger more talented player who can go along with the younger movement i think we need to make.

The Cleveland Cavs are going to continue to retool and get better and we have no chance to win the east for the next 3 years --maybe until LBJ stops playing. So the prescient move is to build and use spots under neath to players who can build "chemistry together" for the long term. Dont see how Admundson fits the bill there at all. And if Phil wants to spend 12mm on Robin Lopez go ahead--but he will sck.

holfresh wrote:Really, we are competing now for Shved and Amundson??..I just want to cry..

I don't understand this attitude at all. Shved was a joy to watch and very effective. Amundson a lunch-pail, bring-home-the-bacon competitor And you guys think there's no place on the team for them?

They're talented, inexpensive, leave-it-on-the-floor BB players who loved playing here.

That's a problem?

fwk00 wrote:

holfresh wrote:Really, we are competing now for Shved and Amundson??..I just want to cry..

I don't understand this attitude at all. Shved was a joy to watch and very effective. Amundson a lunch-pail, bring-home-the-bacon competitor And you guys think there's no place on the team for them?

They're talented, inexpensive, leave-it-on-the-floor BB players who loved playing here.

That's a problem?

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

holfresh wrote:Really, we are competing now for Shved and Amundson??..I just want to cry..

I don't understand this attitude at all. Shved was a joy to watch and very effective. Amundson a lunch-pail, bring-home-the-bacon competitor And you guys think there's no place on the team for them?

They're talented, inexpensive, leave-it-on-the-floor BB players who loved playing here.

That's a problem?

Bro we won 17 games last year..These are 3rd string players at every stop they have made in their careers...Now we are trying to sell them as integral pieces??..Come on man..

Forget the 17 wins. That's not how you should be judging if a player has a role on this team. I thought the idea was to have Shved and and a guy like Amundson off the bench. Lou is not a big deal if they bring him back or not. He's just another vet who you know what you're getting if you have to have a reserve off the bench.

The point of this summer is to revamp the top of the rotation with starting quality players. That will push the role players further down the rotation where they belong. I think Shved could be a useful 6th or 7th man for this team. His game fits this offense. Still we won't be even talking about these guys until after Phil fills out the top of the rotation with quality players.

First of all..The money some estimated that Shved should get is money we weren't willing to pay Shump...We should not be shelling out money to end of the bench guys before we sort out guys in the starting lineup..We sort out the front line players then see how the back up fits not the other way around..Outside of Melo, they are all replaceable..

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

holfresh wrote:Really, we are competing now for Shved and Amundson??..I just want to cry..

I don't understand this attitude at all. Shved was a joy to watch and very effective. Amundson a lunch-pail, bring-home-the-bacon competitor And you guys think there's no place on the team for them?

They're talented, inexpensive, leave-it-on-the-floor BB players who loved playing here.

That's a problem?

Bro we won 17 games last year..These are 3rd string players at every stop they have made in their careers...Now we are trying to sell them as integral pieces??..Come on man..

Forget the 17 wins. That's not how you should be judging if a player has a role on this team. I thought the idea was to have Shved and and a guy like Amundson off the bench. Lou is not a big deal if they bring him back or not. He's just another vet who you know what you're getting if you have to have a reserve off the bench.

The point of this summer is to revamp the top of the rotation with starting quality players. That will push the role players further down the rotation where they belong. I think Shved could be a useful 6th or 7th man for this team. His game fits this offense. Still we won't be even talking about these guys until after Phil fills out the top of the rotation with quality players.

First of all..The money some estimated that Shved should get is money we weren't willing to pay Shump...We should not be shelling out money to end of the bench guys before we sort out guys in the starting lineup..We sort out the front line players then see how the back up fits not the other way around..Outside of Melo, they are all replaceable..

This is exactly what is gonna happen. Shved is a good player for this system but he's also gotta be brought back at the right price. I don't think it's a major issue. We all saw how much better the team was with Shved on the floor. He was the only one who actually understood how to excel in the Triangle as the big guard. He's not a scrub. He actually has talent but since he hadn't really gotten going in his 1st 2 years people wrote him off. Phil and his staff saw his skills as a good fit and they were right.

What everyone has to start understanding and respecting is that Phil and his staff really do know what they need to make this all work. They know what kind of skills players need to have. It's not a guessing game with no frame of reference. They have 20 years of data points to go by. This offense has clear roles and needs. Don't let the bad start to this process fool you like so many others. Phil does know what he's trying to accomplish. There's a blueprint to his teams that he has clearly in mind.

Imagine if you knew an offense inside and out and you knew all the roles clearly and what it takes in a player to make the most of that role?

U are frigging kidding me right??????????

http://bottlegate.com/2015/05/26/video-shump-jr-smith-kyrie-and-lebron-dance-in-the-cold-tub-after-sweeping-atlanta/