skeng wrote:I don't care how well JR does for whoever the ****. Fuck him and his brother. And his sorry ass should quit with that "one man's trash is another man's treasure" bullshyt! Just be happy we shipped you to ****in Cleveland to contend for a ring.

Amen brother.

JesseDark wrote:

blkexec wrote:

fishmike wrote:

JesseDark wrote:When JR is not distracted and focuses on his job you get what you expect out of him. NY was too much for him. The nighlife, partying with Rhianna,tweets with groupies, way too much for JR. We have got to find a player who is mature enough to deal with the Big Apple.

he couldnt handle China or Denver either, so he's covering all spectrums.

JR is a pitcher with a 99mph fastball. So long as we can still throw the heat a GM or team will think they can get this guy straight. He's talented and talent is always coveted.

JR is the kind of player who matures late. I think his experience in NY will only make him mature even faster. So this is why he's killing in Cleveland. It didn't matter where he landed, he has something to prove to NY fans and he's clearly riding his emotions for being traded. But it just shows you that JR needs external motivation to succeed. But when he has to motivate himself, he's lost.

Yeah I agree,especially the part apart external motivation, what a shame he didn't get it when he was with us. You never know when he is going to loose it over a foul or something else.

Well, the difference between Lebron and Melo is their motivation style. Because Lebron is vocal on and off the court, he keeps that external motivation going. Melo, like Billups said, isn't that type of leader. This is where our GM must understand personality types when building a championship team. Talent alone is not enough. Vocal leaders are valuable when building from the ground up. Quiet leaders like Melo is valuable on a team with other vocal leaders. Melo is a soldier who leads by example. Clocks in and clocks out.....thats it.

It seems like the knicks have failed for so long by putting players in positions to fail instead of positions to succeed. Once we get a GM (hopefully it's Phil) to correct this glaring mistake, we will always run in circles.

If you are going to build around Melo, you have to surround him with players to fill his voids.

If he's a quiet leader, add vocal leaders.
If he doesn't have lateral quickness, then add players with lateral quickness. (Amari?)
If he's injury prone, add players without a history of injuries (Amari?)
If he needs to dominate the ball to be affective, then add players that don't need the ball to be affective.

I've been saying for the last 15 years, I need to be that floor general PG (I'm like Charlie Ward, who could also jump). Now I need to be that GM (I've build numerous championship teams on a city league level). It's very clear for me to see, but why isn't it clear to our past GM's making millions!

martin wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Nalod wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

mreinman wrote:How GM got a bag of nada for him.

This could be the move that saved Cleveland

Based on the way he has played, we could have gotten 2 first rounders for him ala mozgov (well not really but ...)

Is our GM making bad moves or are all the GM's dealing with him just getting lucky?

So where is the old trade threads people like to bring up?

Great find. This is where posters become captain obvious and only see whats in front of them. JR has always had the ability to take over games and get hot. Nobody ever slammed his talent.

Its his brain.

Don't waste our time with adolescent Rants.

so you have become mr defend phil at all costs?

have at it ... everybody has a right

How do you like phils moves so far (not to pre judge, just some commentary)

Nalod didn't bring up Phil, you did. He wasn't defending Phil as much as pointing out to you the obvious value of JR

the point of the thread was to discuss if Phil gave him (and shumpert) away for too cheap (in retrospect).

We should not have kept him since he was not succeeding here but how important was he to cleveland and should we have gotten more for him?

This is a valid question and being discussed ad nauseum all over the web.

mreinman wrote:

martin wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Nalod wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

mreinman wrote:How GM got a bag of nada for him.

This could be the move that saved Cleveland

Based on the way he has played, we could have gotten 2 first rounders for him ala mozgov (well not really but ...)

Is our GM making bad moves or are all the GM's dealing with him just getting lucky?

So where is the old trade threads people like to bring up?

Great find. This is where posters become captain obvious and only see whats in front of them. JR has always had the ability to take over games and get hot. Nobody ever slammed his talent.

Its his brain.

Don't waste our time with adolescent Rants.

so you have become mr defend phil at all costs?

have at it ... everybody has a right

How do you like phils moves so far (not to pre judge, just some commentary)

Nalod didn't bring up Phil, you did. He wasn't defending Phil as much as pointing out to you the obvious value of JR

the point of the thread was to discuss if Phil gave him (and shumpert) away for too cheap (in retrospect).

We should not have kept him since he was not succeeding here but how important was he to cleveland and should we have gotten more for him?

This is a valid question and being discussed ad nauseum all over the web.

JR Smith stock was dropping like a used car. This isn't real estate where your value slowly increases. The knicks are a bad product and everybody's value was dropping more and more after each lost. Sometimes you have to cut the string on your investment. Take the lost and move on. Thats what Phil did. Hopefully he can now see that JR wasn't the root problem, he was only a branch. The root problem was the building process around Melo was flawed from the day he arrived.....The only time we got it right, was when we had a team full of vets. It wasn't Linsanity, it was Kidd, Rasheed, Kurt Thomas, Camby.....Thats how you build around Melo.

Why you think he doesn't want a young PG.....and prefers a veteran PG. Melo needs more vets around him and less JR's around him. Phil made a decision, and got the most he was going to get. He could've did something different by adding all the retired vets he could find. Wait until JR's stock increased, then trade him. But that was his choice. At that time of the trade, thats the most he was going to get.

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Silverfuel wrote:JR could go AWOL any minute like he did during the playoffs in our 54 win season. He had to be traded.

You mean when he played injured (in the playoffs), had no lift, and had surgery in july, then he came back to soon.

The bottom line is, phil fck up trading him, 1) to a eastern conference team 2) for a dime bag of weed 3)with an expiring contract of another decent asset 4)to a contender.

Most didn't mind trading them, but for god sake, get to something of value back.

One more bad move and phil is going to be in heavy competition with ISiah for the worst president in KNICK HISORY.

Ive heard this before and its BS. JR was playing just fine until he started partying until sunrise.

This is not on the Knicks, its on JR. We have seen him play great. Woody got a career season out of him but its never been sustainable for JR. Lebron can probably keep him focused for the rest of these playoffs. Lets see next year. God I hope they give him a huge deal. Wait until next year when he fails drug tests because Cle is boring him.

JR has always been partying..They all party..

To a point where it diminishes their performance in games?

There are a lot of things to like about Smith, and he had some good moments for the Knicks, but the guy is self-destructive if not tethered.

Luckily for him, James has opened up his arms for him and taken him under his wings.

No, his knee injury probably had more to do with it..Some one posted a picture of JR 3 days before a playoff game and all of a sudden JR's bad play is because he is hanging with Rihanna...Are we this naive to think that JR had not been partying all year but it had no effect on his game..Or that it's coincidence that Chris Copeland landed at JFK at 2am, an hour before being stabbed at a nightclub in NYC..Sefolosa and Antic was at the same club at the same time but they had no clue Copeland was there..They say MJ used to arrive after midnight and didn't leave until the morning...

They all hang out and party...Not just JR...

pros act like pros. Kids act like kids. JR is immature. He's a boy. A grown man knows how to get loose and manage themselves. A kid sees that adult, tries those things and drinks till he pukes, smokes till he fails drug tests and does stupid ****. Its NOT the same. Want to tell me all partying is equal? Please.

So when JR won six man of the year..Do you think he wasn't partying??...They took a picture of JR partying 3 days before a playoff game and you are running with it...

blkexec wrote:

mreinman wrote:

martin wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Nalod wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

mreinman wrote:How GM got a bag of nada for him.

This could be the move that saved Cleveland

Based on the way he has played, we could have gotten 2 first rounders for him ala mozgov (well not really but ...)

Is our GM making bad moves or are all the GM's dealing with him just getting lucky?

So where is the old trade threads people like to bring up?

Great find. This is where posters become captain obvious and only see whats in front of them. JR has always had the ability to take over games and get hot. Nobody ever slammed his talent.

Its his brain.

Don't waste our time with adolescent Rants.

so you have become mr defend phil at all costs?

have at it ... everybody has a right

How do you like phils moves so far (not to pre judge, just some commentary)

Nalod didn't bring up Phil, you did. He wasn't defending Phil as much as pointing out to you the obvious value of JR

the point of the thread was to discuss if Phil gave him (and shumpert) away for too cheap (in retrospect).

We should not have kept him since he was not succeeding here but how important was he to cleveland and should we have gotten more for him?

This is a valid question and being discussed ad nauseum all over the web.

JR Smith stock was dropping like a used car. This isn't real estate where your value slowly increases. The knicks are a bad product and everybody's value was dropping more and more after each lost. Sometimes you have to cut the string on your investment. Take the lost and move on. Thats what Phil did. Hopefully he can now see that JR wasn't the root problem, he was only a branch. The root problem was the building process around Melo was flawed from the day he arrived.....The only time we got it right, was when we had a team full of vets. It wasn't Linsanity, it was Kidd, Rasheed, Kurt Thomas, Camby.....Thats how you build around Melo.

Why you think he doesn't want a young PG.....and prefers a veteran PG. Melo needs more vets around him and less JR's around him. Phil made a decision, and got the most he was going to get. He could've did something different by adding all the retired vets he could find. Wait until JR's stock increased, then trade him. But that was his choice. At that time of the trade, thats the most he was going to get.

I agree with pretty much everything that you wrote.

However, looking back, how do you think phil judges himself on the Tyson and JR/Shumpert trade?

mreinman wrote:

blkexec wrote:

mreinman wrote:

martin wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Nalod wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

mreinman wrote:How GM got a bag of nada for him.

This could be the move that saved Cleveland

Based on the way he has played, we could have gotten 2 first rounders for him ala mozgov (well not really but ...)

Is our GM making bad moves or are all the GM's dealing with him just getting lucky?

So where is the old trade threads people like to bring up?

Great find. This is where posters become captain obvious and only see whats in front of them. JR has always had the ability to take over games and get hot. Nobody ever slammed his talent.

Its his brain.

Don't waste our time with adolescent Rants.

so you have become mr defend phil at all costs?

have at it ... everybody has a right

How do you like phils moves so far (not to pre judge, just some commentary)

Nalod didn't bring up Phil, you did. He wasn't defending Phil as much as pointing out to you the obvious value of JR

the point of the thread was to discuss if Phil gave him (and shumpert) away for too cheap (in retrospect).

We should not have kept him since he was not succeeding here but how important was he to cleveland and should we have gotten more for him?

This is a valid question and being discussed ad nauseum all over the web.

JR Smith stock was dropping like a used car. This isn't real estate where your value slowly increases. The knicks are a bad product and everybody's value was dropping more and more after each lost. Sometimes you have to cut the string on your investment. Take the lost and move on. Thats what Phil did. Hopefully he can now see that JR wasn't the root problem, he was only a branch. The root problem was the building process around Melo was flawed from the day he arrived.....The only time we got it right, was when we had a team full of vets. It wasn't Linsanity, it was Kidd, Rasheed, Kurt Thomas, Camby.....Thats how you build around Melo.

Why you think he doesn't want a young PG.....and prefers a veteran PG. Melo needs more vets around him and less JR's around him. Phil made a decision, and got the most he was going to get. He could've did something different by adding all the retired vets he could find. Wait until JR's stock increased, then trade him. But that was his choice. At that time of the trade, thats the most he was going to get.

I agree with pretty much everything that you wrote.

However, looking back, how do you think phil judges himself on the Tyson and JR/Shumpert trade?

I think Phil was just having a garage sale, thinking we needed a cultural change anyway. We need a high pick. And he feels they are replaceable. Of course he jumped the gun a little with his trades. He was better off putting some of these guys on the shelf for a season. But he probably labeled Tyson and Shump as injury prone. JR as an immature player that doesn't fit the triangle. I think looking back on it, Phil is probably saying he should've taken a different approach. Because he just made his job even harder. But he also got rid of players that were part of a bad culture in NY. But he could've gotten back more than what he did. Thats simply growing pains as a rookie GM. Lets hope it doesn't continue, and he's actually learning on the go. If anybody is kicking themselves right now, it's Dolan. What return did Dolan get so far, for his multi million dollar management investment (Fisher and Phil). So far nothing....

Next season will be the real test where Fisher and Phil and Dolan will be graded. If we are in the same position next year, thats painful.....And Dolan will continue to lose money and stock value. Might be time to sale if Dolan was a smart investor.....Giving rookies millions of dollars to turn this franchise around is just as risky as hoping JR will mature under Melo's watch. Melo ain't baby sitting nobody but his kids.

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Silverfuel wrote:JR could go AWOL any minute like he did during the playoffs in our 54 win season. He had to be traded.

You mean when he played injured (in the playoffs), had no lift, and had surgery in july, then he came back to soon.

The bottom line is, phil fck up trading him, 1) to a eastern conference team 2) for a dime bag of weed 3)with an expiring contract of another decent asset 4)to a contender.

Most didn't mind trading them, but for god sake, get to something of value back.

One more bad move and phil is going to be in heavy competition with ISiah for the worst president in KNICK HISORY.

Ive heard this before and its BS. JR was playing just fine until he started partying until sunrise.

This is not on the Knicks, its on JR. We have seen him play great. Woody got a career season out of him but its never been sustainable for JR. Lebron can probably keep him focused for the rest of these playoffs. Lets see next year. God I hope they give him a huge deal. Wait until next year when he fails drug tests because Cle is boring him.

JR has always been partying..They all party..

To a point where it diminishes their performance in games?

There are a lot of things to like about Smith, and he had some good moments for the Knicks, but the guy is self-destructive if not tethered.

Luckily for him, James has opened up his arms for him and taken him under his wings.

No, his knee injury probably had more to do with it..Some one posted a picture of JR 3 days before a playoff game and all of a sudden JR's bad play is because he is hanging with Rihanna...Are we this naive to think that JR had not been partying all year but it had no effect on his game..Or that it's coincidence that Chris Copeland landed at JFK at 2am, an hour before being stabbed at a nightclub in NYC..Sefolosa and Antic was at the same club at the same time but they had no clue Copeland was there..They say MJ used to arrive after midnight and didn't leave until the morning...

They all hang out and party...Not just JR...

pros act like pros. Kids act like kids. JR is immature. He's a boy. A grown man knows how to get loose and manage themselves. A kid sees that adult, tries those things and drinks till he pukes, smokes till he fails drug tests and does stupid ****. Its NOT the same. Want to tell me all partying is equal? Please.

So when JR won six man of the year..Do you think he wasn't partying??...They took a picture of JR partying 3 days before a playoff game and you are running with it...

No, I dont think he was. I think he was focused.

If "everyone" parties why are dont more guys fail drug tests? Are Odom, JR and Sheed the only guy in the league who smoke weed? Or are they the only ones who cant hold their stuff together? You see the difference?

The Spurs got loaded in LA after their series was over. Thats partying. JR gets loaded 12 hours before playoff games. Thats immature. See how that works?

Is needing aspirin from a good night out the same as throwing up in garbage of a client site after a good night? One nobody notices, the other will get you fired. See how that works?

You want to keep defending JR's maturity with the "everyone does it" label? FAIL.

Hitting a club until 2am on the road and hitting everying until 7am are NOT the same thing. See how that works?

Last stats I saw said that 60 to 70% of NBA players smoke weed...Can't tell you why JR got caught and others didn't...How do u know JR got loaded 12 hours before a playoff game??..How do you know the extent of JR partying habits??..You have no clue but wouldnt mind making asperations off a picture taken with Rihanna 3 days before a playoff game...

blkexec wrote:

mreinman wrote:

blkexec wrote:

mreinman wrote:

blkexec wrote:

mreinman wrote:

martin wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Nalod wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

mreinman wrote:How GM got a bag of nada for him.

This could be the move that saved Cleveland

Based on the way he has played, we could have gotten 2 first rounders for him ala mozgov (well not really but ...)

Is our GM making bad moves or are all the GM's dealing with him just getting lucky?

So where is the old trade threads people like to bring up?

Great find. This is where posters become captain obvious and only see whats in front of them. JR has always had the ability to take over games and get hot. Nobody ever slammed his talent.

Its his brain.

Don't waste our time with adolescent Rants.

so you have become mr defend phil at all costs?

have at it ... everybody has a right

How do you like phils moves so far (not to pre judge, just some commentary)

Nalod didn't bring up Phil, you did. He wasn't defending Phil as much as pointing out to you the obvious value of JR

the point of the thread was to discuss if Phil gave him (and shumpert) away for too cheap (in retrospect).

We should not have kept him since he was not succeeding here but how important was he to cleveland and should we have gotten more for him?

This is a valid question and being discussed ad nauseum all over the web.

JR Smith stock was dropping like a used car. This isn't real estate where your value slowly increases. The knicks are a bad product and everybody's value was dropping more and more after each lost. Sometimes you have to cut the string on your investment. Take the lost and move on. Thats what Phil did. Hopefully he can now see that JR wasn't the root problem, he was only a branch. The root problem was the building process around Melo was flawed from the day he arrived.....The only time we got it right, was when we had a team full of vets. It wasn't Linsanity, it was Kidd, Rasheed, Kurt Thomas, Camby.....Thats how you build around Melo.

Why you think he doesn't want a young PG.....and prefers a veteran PG. Melo needs more vets around him and less JR's around him. Phil made a decision, and got the most he was going to get. He could've did something different by adding all the retired vets he could find. Wait until JR's stock increased, then trade him. But that was his choice. At that time of the trade, thats the most he was going to get.

I agree with pretty much everything that you wrote.

However, looking back, how do you think phil judges himself on the Tyson and JR/Shumpert trade?

I think Phil was just having a garage sale, thinking we needed a cultural change anyway. We need a high pick. And he feels they are replaceable. Of course he jumped the gun a little with his trades. He was better off putting some of these guys on the shelf for a season. But he probably labeled Tyson and Shump as injury prone. JR as an immature player that doesn't fit the triangle. I think looking back on it, Phil is probably saying he should've taken a different approach. Because he just made his job even harder. But he also got rid of players that were part of a bad culture in NY. But he could've gotten back more than what he did. Thats simply growing pains as a rookie GM. Lets hope it doesn't continue, and he's actually learning on the go. If anybody is kicking themselves right now, it's Dolan.

agreed.

but there is a limit of the amount of growing pains that is acceptable even for a rookie gm

yes, there is a limit. But that limit is different for every team. In NY, the limit is much tighter. We expect everything to get better in a NY minute. For those mid west teams, they are on a different time scale. This is why we continue to fail. Everybody comes in trying to fix a 20 year problem, in 1 year. And what happens, they dig themselves even deeper. And the media jumps all over it. But it's a great question that I don't think has an answer. Whats the limit on growing pains? I think this year, Phil gets a pass. Next year, we need to see a major jump from the worst team to winning the first round in the playoffs. But I'm sure everybody will have their own limit based on their historical bias.

I am not even going to expect a playoff appearance unless he goes crazy and invests in all win now veterans.

If I see a positive rebuild model where our young players are improving and learning a good system while the veterans have a positive influence, then I would be ok.

Problem is, I believe that he goes for option number one (win now starphuck) and then we probably end up back at square one.

JesseDark wrote:

blkexec wrote:

fishmike wrote:

JesseDark wrote:When JR is not distracted and focuses on his job you get what you expect out of him. NY was too much for him. The nighlife, partying with Rhianna,tweets with groupies, way too much for JR. We have got to find a player who is mature enough to deal with the Big Apple.

he couldnt handle China or Denver either, so he's covering all spectrums.

JR is a pitcher with a 99mph fastball. So long as we can still throw the heat a GM or team will think they can get this guy straight. He's talented and talent is always coveted.

JR is the kind of player who matures late. I think his experience in NY will only make him mature even faster. So this is why he's killing in Cleveland. It didn't matter where he landed, he has something to prove to NY fans and he's clearly riding his emotions for being traded. But it just shows you that JR needs external motivation to succeed. But when he has to motivate himself, he's lost.

Yeah I agree,especially the part apart external motivation, what a shame he didn't get it when he was with us. You never know when he is going to loose it over a foul or something else.

rodman was kicking camera men, artest was fighting fans, phil coached both, so please stop using jr's attitude as a way of justify giving him away with shumpert for nothing

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://www.twitter.com/mcten/status/601427196255830016

Yeah, JR is changing right before our eyes.