dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

mreinman wrote:

holfresh wrote:Dude had 27 pts 11 boards and 6 asst..still didn't look like he was trying..

27 points on 23 shots is not really good.

he did make some very good passes.

still don't think they lost because of him though its easy to scapegoat him.

Reddick did not do much (offense or defense)
Crawford was bloody awful (on both ends)
austin rivers showed that he is a min player
matt barnes did zilch

right 13-23 isn't good but 7-20 is...thanks...Metrics told you shooting 57% isn't good huh...

they both had mediocre TS% so you might say they cancelled each other out. the real glaring problem was jamal crawford. he really hurt the clippers on both ends.

Game was long over before Jamal starting jacking up shots because no one else was helping CP3...57% is a great shooting night..

crawford came in with his team down by 1 and while he was in the lead grew to 7.
crawford continues to play halfway thru the second quarter as the lead balloons to 15.
crawford leaves the game and the clippers narrow the deficit to 8.
crawford finishes the half on the court as the lead goes back to 10.
crawford is on the bench for the start of 2nd half as the clippers get within 3 but then fall back by 8.
crawford enters the game halfway thru the 3rd with his team down 8 and stays in while they go down 17.
crawford leaves the game halfway thru the 4th with the team down 18.

so, no... jamal crawford hurt his team throughout the game and was on the floor the two times the rockets put a lot of distance between themselves and the clippers.

I completely missed your point.

Edit: I see now ... I think that the misses are more costly.

Again, look at the Harden vs Blake numbers. How did Blake have a higher TS?

mreinman wrote:@holfresh

I completely missed your point.

Edit: I see now ... I think that the misses are more costly.

Again, look at the Harden vs Blake numbers. How did Blake have a higher TS?

No, as in the example above..2-2 free throws = 2 pts = TS%113.6...FG 1-1 = 2pts TS%100..As in the player examples posted above..Thus 2pts at the ft line is more valuable than 2 pts scored on the court..Simple stuff..I'm not sure why you can't understand that...A 3 pointer, FG 1-1= TS%150..Can't make this sh!t up...So Harden can go 7-20 every game..Hit some ft and keep jacking threes, Morey will show u the vault...

Plug the values I have into your formula and see the results for yourself...Please do tell me the findings..I hope you are seated..

holfresh wrote:

mreinman wrote:@holfresh

I completely missed your point.

Edit: I see now ... I think that the misses are more costly.

Again, look at the Harden vs Blake numbers. How did Blake have a higher TS?

No, as in the example above..2-2 free throws = 2 pts = TS%113.6...FG 1-1 = 2pts TS%100..As in the player examples posted above..Thus 2pts at the ft line is more valuable than 2 pts scored on the court..Simple stuff..I'm not sure why you can't understand that...A 3 pointer, FG 1-1= TS%150..Can't make this sh!t up...So Harden can go 7-20 every game..Hit some ft and keep jacking threes, Morey will show u the vault...

Plug the values I have into your formula and see the results for yourself...Please do tell me the findings..I hope you are seated..

I did plug them in and I see.

I also plugged in Blakes vs Harden and you argument did not hold.

perhaps tomorrow I will delved deeper into the math.

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

mreinman wrote:

holfresh wrote:

mreinman wrote:

holfresh wrote:

mreinman wrote:

holfresh wrote:Dude had 27 pts 11 boards and 6 asst..still didn't look like he was trying..

27 points on 23 shots is not really good.

he did make some very good passes.

still don't think they lost because of him though its easy to scapegoat him.

Reddick did not do much (offense or defense)
Crawford was bloody awful (on both ends)
austin rivers showed that he is a min player
matt barnes did zilch

right 13-23 isn't good but 7-20 is...thanks...Metrics told you shooting 57% isn't good huh...

I don't like 7 for 20 either. Harden did so many other things to make him extremely valuable even though his shot was off. THere was a reason that Ariza was wide open. Harden played a great game all around even though he had too many turnovers. He killed the clippers defense.

You really sound silly with this especially with you giving a pass for Melo who is not even remotely close. One day you will at least stand up and admit that its an illogical bias.

Harden missed a lot of shots and I would like to see him shoot better but the dude still finds away to be valuable and efficient enough even when he is off. His TS was 55.5 today. Griffins was 56.5 (which for Melo is a dream) but they needed a lot more from him.

You sound sillier saying a guy who shoots 57% isn't really good...But a guy scoring 31 pts on 29 attempts is good...

31 points on 20 shots (not 29) ... nice try though.

and, I never said that Harden shot well today. Again, nice try.

18 ft was because of 9 shot attempts they didn't count...

you're saying that a guy who gets fouled while trying to shoot should have that count as an attempt?!?

I'm saying the reason he got to the foul line is that he was attempting to shoot..

and when that attempt is somehow thwarted or altered by contact that it should still count as a real attempt? and what about the points he scores from the line? do they not count as real points?

Whether or not the stat man decides to count fouls as shot attempts should not be the point..What actually happens is what actually happened...You guys are bowing to a stat that holds ft makes at a higher value than a regular make...You are rationalizing it by saying I'm scoring points and not really attempting a shot..But that's not really true is it??

well clearly you resent guys who can draw fouls by going through a shooting motion so i guess you want to demean the ability to draw fouls by equating them with shot attempts. what is your alternative-- to draw a foul in the act of passing lol?

but lets face facts: drawing fouls is a skill like other basketball skills, and it becomes increasingly important as a team goes deeper into the playoffs.

most all the great winners could draw fouls almost at will. name me several winners who didn't.

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

mreinman wrote:

holfresh wrote:

mreinman wrote:

holfresh wrote:

mreinman wrote:

holfresh wrote:Dude had 27 pts 11 boards and 6 asst..still didn't look like he was trying..

27 points on 23 shots is not really good.

he did make some very good passes.

still don't think they lost because of him though its easy to scapegoat him.

Reddick did not do much (offense or defense)
Crawford was bloody awful (on both ends)
austin rivers showed that he is a min player
matt barnes did zilch

right 13-23 isn't good but 7-20 is...thanks...Metrics told you shooting 57% isn't good huh...

I don't like 7 for 20 either. Harden did so many other things to make him extremely valuable even though his shot was off. THere was a reason that Ariza was wide open. Harden played a great game all around even though he had too many turnovers. He killed the clippers defense.

You really sound silly with this especially with you giving a pass for Melo who is not even remotely close. One day you will at least stand up and admit that its an illogical bias.

Harden missed a lot of shots and I would like to see him shoot better but the dude still finds away to be valuable and efficient enough even when he is off. His TS was 55.5 today. Griffins was 56.5 (which for Melo is a dream) but they needed a lot more from him.

You sound sillier saying a guy who shoots 57% isn't really good...But a guy scoring 31 pts on 29 attempts is good...

31 points on 20 shots (not 29) ... nice try though.

and, I never said that Harden shot well today. Again, nice try.

18 ft was because of 9 shot attempts they didn't count...

you're saying that a guy who gets fouled while trying to shoot should have that count as an attempt?!?

I'm saying the reason he got to the foul line is that he was attempting to shoot..

and when that attempt is somehow thwarted or altered by contact that it should still count as a real attempt? and what about the points he scores from the line? do they not count as real points?

Whether or not the stat man decides to count fouls as shot attempts should not be the point..What actually happens is what actually happened...You guys are bowing to a stat that holds ft makes at a higher value than a regular make...You are rationalizing it by saying I'm scoring points and not really attempting a shot..But that's not really true is it??

well clearly you resent guys who can draw fouls by going through a shooting motion so i guess you want to demean the ability to draw fouls by equating them with shot attempts. what is your alternative-- to draw a foul in the act of passing lol?

but lets face facts: drawing fouls is a skill like other basketball skills, and it becomes increasingly important as a team goes deeper into the playoffs.

most all the great winners could draw fouls almost at will. name me several winners who didn't.

You never try to keep the discussion on topic..Its not about the players or fouls..Its about your statistical measurement which doesn't make sense..

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

mreinman wrote:@holfresh

I completely missed your point.

Edit: I see now ... I think that the misses are more costly.

Again, look at the Harden vs Blake numbers. How did Blake have a higher TS?

No, as in the example above..2-2 free throws = 2 pts = TS%113.6...FG 1-1 = 2pts TS%100..As in the player examples posted above..Thus 2pts at the ft line is more valuable than 2 pts scored on the court..Simple stuff..I'm not sure why you can't understand that...A 3 pointer, FG 1-1= TS%150..Can't make this sh!t up...So Harden can go 7-20 every game..Hit some ft and keep jacking threes, Morey will show u the vault...

Plug the values I have into your formula and see the results for yourself...Please do tell me the findings..I hope you are seated..

Scoring at the line *is* more valuable than from the field. You're getting the opposing team in foul trouble.
If Melo's being guarded by Lebron and you give me the choice of Melo making an FG or getting a foul on Lebron (and making both FTs), I'll take the latter.

I'm looking at numerical value while you are looking at strategic value..How does one quantify strategic value?

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

mreinman wrote:

holfresh wrote:Dude had 27 pts 11 boards and 6 asst..still didn't look like he was trying..

27 points on 23 shots is not really good.

he did make some very good passes.

still don't think they lost because of him though its easy to scapegoat him.

Reddick did not do much (offense or defense)
Crawford was bloody awful (on both ends)
austin rivers showed that he is a min player
matt barnes did zilch

right 13-23 isn't good but 7-20 is...thanks...Metrics told you shooting 57% isn't good huh...

they both had mediocre TS% so you might say they cancelled each other out. the real glaring problem was jamal crawford. he really hurt the clippers on both ends.

Game was long over before Jamal starting jacking up shots because no one else was helping CP3...57% is a great shooting night..

crawford came in with his team down by 1 and while he was in the lead grew to 7.
crawford continues to play halfway thru the second quarter as the lead balloons to 15.
crawford leaves the game and the clippers narrow the deficit to 8.
crawford finishes the half on the court as the lead goes back to 10.
crawford is on the bench for the start of 2nd half as the clippers get within 3 but then fall back by 8.
crawford enters the game halfway thru the 3rd with his team down 8 and stays in while they go down 17.
crawford leaves the game halfway thru the 4th with the team down 18.

so, no... jamal crawford hurt his team throughout the game and was on the floor the two times the rockets put a lot of distance between themselves and the clippers.

Did you really keep track of that or did you find it somewhere?

first of all i watch the game carefully and study the ebbs and flows of momentum between the teams and who is responsible for those ebbs and flows for better and for worse: a bad shot leading to a fast break and a conversion here, a missed defensive assignment that leads to a 3 point shot there.... it all adds up to an analysis of players who hurt or help the team. paul pierce is a master of momentum-changing plays for the better, jamal crawford is a disaster for making momentum-changing plays for the worse. remember what i always say, crushalot: bad shots are tantamount to turnovers in the playoffs.

anyway after this close analysis i go to espn nba and click the jump/tab that is labeled "play by play". from there it is easy to follow what transpires. here have a look:

http://espn.go.com/nba/playbyplay?gameId=400793867

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

mreinman wrote:@holfresh

I completely missed your point.

Edit: I see now ... I think that the misses are more costly.

Again, look at the Harden vs Blake numbers. How did Blake have a higher TS?

No, as in the example above..2-2 free throws = 2 pts = TS%113.6...FG 1-1 = 2pts TS%100..As in the player examples posted above..Thus 2pts at the ft line is more valuable than 2 pts scored on the court..Simple stuff..I'm not sure why you can't understand that...A 3 pointer, FG 1-1= TS%150..Can't make this sh!t up...So Harden can go 7-20 every game..Hit some ft and keep jacking threes, Morey will show u the vault...

Plug the values I have into your formula and see the results for yourself...Please do tell me the findings..I hope you are seated..

Scoring at the line *is* more valuable than from the field. You're getting the opposing team in foul trouble.
If Melo's being guarded by Lebron and you give me the choice of Melo making an FG or getting a foul on Lebron (and making both FTs), I'll take the latter.

I'm looking at numerical value while you are looking at strategic value..How does one quantify strategic value?

Well, numerically, the issue is that the average free throw uses up 0.44 possessions. That's because sometimes a player will go to the line without a possession being used up (a technical or flagrant) and other times 3 FTs = 1 possession. Also, if you make the FG and get fouled, the 1 FTA doesn't use up any possessions - the 1 FGA already does. So the .44 value works correctly with a large sample. There isn't enough data in the box score to actually check how many possessions each FT did take up. You have to use this general conversion rate.

So included in the formula is the FG attempts that aren't counted by traditional stats that I keep bringing up..So saying that Harden scored 31 pts on 20 shots isn't what is represented in TS%..In this particular case, TS% says he took 28 shots..(.44X18)..Some one needs to break this to mreinman..I hope he is seated..

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

mreinman wrote:@holfresh

I completely missed your point.

Edit: I see now ... I think that the misses are more costly.

Again, look at the Harden vs Blake numbers. How did Blake have a higher TS?

No, as in the example above..2-2 free throws = 2 pts = TS%113.6...FG 1-1 = 2pts TS%100..As in the player examples posted above..Thus 2pts at the ft line is more valuable than 2 pts scored on the court..Simple stuff..I'm not sure why you can't understand that...A 3 pointer, FG 1-1= TS%150..Can't make this sh!t up...So Harden can go 7-20 every game..Hit some ft and keep jacking threes, Morey will show u the vault...

Plug the values I have into your formula and see the results for yourself...Please do tell me the findings..I hope you are seated..

Scoring at the line *is* more valuable than from the field. You're getting the opposing team in foul trouble.
If Melo's being guarded by Lebron and you give me the choice of Melo making an FG or getting a foul on Lebron (and making both FTs), I'll take the latter.

I'm looking at numerical value while you are looking at strategic value..How does one quantify strategic value?

Well, numerically, the issue is that the average free throw uses up 0.44 possessions. That's because sometimes a player will go to the line without a possession being used up (a technical or flagrant) and other times 3 FTs = 1 possession. Also, if you make the FG and get fouled, the 1 FTA doesn't use up any possessions - the 1 FGA already does. So the .44 value works correctly with a large sample. There isn't enough data in the box score to actually check how many possessions each FT did take up. You have to use this general conversion rate.

So included in the formula is the FG attempts that aren't counted by traditional stats that I keep bringing up..So saying that Harden scored 31 pts on 20 shots isn't what is represented in TS%..In this particular case, TS% says he took 28 shots..(.44X18)..Some one needs to break this to mreinman..I hope he is seated..

That's correct (except I'd use the term possessions rather than shots).
Note that 31 points on 28 possessions is fairly good, though. Mreinman never said they weren't possessions. He said they weren't shots.
I do agree with you that there are much better stats than points per shot though.

Shot attempts/possessions same thing..U guys just want to speak differently in your exclusive boys club..Enjoy..