fishmike wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

fishmike wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:6 million to the Yankees. What exactly is that in relative terms? Pay him, don't pay him, who gives a...
AnswerMan would probably say Just hit the ball. Right now, a-rod's back to hitting like sheehit.

Maybe he should pay the Yankees 6 million for that 4 strikeout, end the game by hitting into a double play, going 0-6 milestone?

We are winning, scoring runs, hitting homers and our bullpen is frankly beyond scary (hoping and praying that it lasts). A-rod is now a boring, overdone side story.

His walks and power #s are excellent. Our record would definitely be worse without him. What do you expect from a guy in his 21st season?

His OPS+ is currently 144 this year. Amazing for a 39 year old player. I anticipate a drop off at some point this season, but he is definitely helping the team to this point. Note that I'm not an Arod fan and did not like the contract at the time that Hank Steinbrenner forced upon the Yankees / Cashman. They did get a WS Championship out of both Arod and CC - but are paying the price now for contracts that were too long/too much money. I agree with your earlier point on Cano. Same thing, too long....too much money....pass. They made a similar mistake with Ellsbury - but aside from that, the older high contract guys will be dwindling as CC, Arod and Tex finally come off the books. McCann's contract is a concern, but I think they overpaid based on his catching abilities / handling of the pitching staff which I am OK with.

What good signings have the Yankees made in the last 15 years? They have the most unwatchable team. I had 81 game season ticket package from 96-09. I havent watched them for two years. Zero desire in watching a bunch of almost 40 year olds play a brutal brand of ball while the team pumps you up for the Jeter/Mo farewell tours. I wanted no part and havent watched for 2 years.
I took a look at this roster and havent invested 5 minutes. The bullpen is obviously very good, but the entire group of position players are about 37 years old and the only young guy cant hit his weight.

Im not anti-Aroid or anything. At least he had the monster post season in 09. That was some Bonds like hitting. The contract was stupid.

And Guns.. I have no problem with them letting Cano walk. Look at his postseason #s. They werent going to pay $25mm for a guy who cant hit in Oct. If anything ruined me it was Elsbury. So they wont pay $25mm to a home grown star who never missed games but they will pay $18mm to a Red Sock who cant stay healthy. Ever. Puke.

When the Yanks invest in their own farm system and have a couple position guys worth watching every day Ill bite

fish, Aaron Judge and the rest of the up and comers say hello. You need to peruse the actual Yankee thread in the OT Forum. Some good posts in there about what's in the farm system right now.

At least, until we trade most of them for Big Poppy.

and thats fine... no Yankee hate or bitterness... I simply have better things to do than watch that team.

When we have 4-5 guys in the field (at least) that you can figure being around for 5-8 years Ill check it out. In 5-8 years most of this roster will be glue.

What really kills me is the type of ball they play. They won titles around teams that could pitch, play defense and most importantly put the bat on the ball. In the past the Yanks would always pass on the power guys in favor of high on base % and guys who could put the bat on the ball. Now they are a team that does little but swing and miss and wait for the long ball. Mostly they are just an old and uninteresting group. Even if they get hot their style of play never wins a titles.

I think you are referring to the past several seasons rather than this year. They have started move away from the big bopping line-up with Ellsbury and Gardner at the top of the order. Most of their position players are in their early 30s...and they have re-focused on Defense with the additions of Drew, Headley, Young and McCann over the past 2 seasons. After signing CC - they changed their model to focus on young flamethrowers with multiple pitches. They also have modeled the bullpen after the late 90's with Betances and Miller the closest thing to Mariano & Wetland that they'll ever proximate. With the exception of CC, their entire staff is under 28 and locked into efficient contracts (except Tanaka). Tanaka looks like a good investment even if he undergoes Tommy John surgery as he is only 26 and was un-hittable when healthy.

Most of the older guys are leftovers from the 2009 Championship run. Can't begrudge the team trying to constantly stay on top, winning a ship and having to carry some baggage after the fact. The Yanks also do have some good young prospects waiting in the wings such as Severino, Judge, Mateo and Sanchez.

Specific to A-Roid? I dunno but the list of yankees is long. its a quiet list.

gunsnewing wrote:

dk7th wrote:

fishmike wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:6 million to the Yankees. What exactly is that in relative terms? Pay him, don't pay him, who gives a...
AnswerMan would probably say Just hit the ball. Right now, a-rod's back to hitting like sheehit.

Maybe he should pay the Yankees 6 million for that 4 strikeout, end the game by hitting into a double play, going 0-6 milestone?

We are winning, scoring runs, hitting homers and our bullpen is frankly beyond scary (hoping and praying that it lasts). A-rod is now a boring, overdone side story.

His walks and power #s are excellent. Our record would definitely be worse without him. What do you expect from a guy in his 21st season?

His OPS+ is currently 144 this year. Amazing for a 39 year old player. I anticipate a drop off at some point this season, but he is definitely helping the team to this point. Note that I'm not an Arod fan and did not like the contract at the time that Hank Steinbrenner forced upon the Yankees / Cashman. They did get a WS Championship out of both Arod and CC - but are paying the price now for contracts that were too long/too much money. I agree with your earlier point on Cano. Same thing, too long....too much money....pass. They made a similar mistake with Ellsbury - but aside from that, the older high contract guys will be dwindling as CC, Arod and Tex finally come off the books. McCann's contract is a concern, but I think they overpaid based on his catching abilities / handling of the pitching staff which I am OK with.

What good signings have the Yankees made in the last 15 years? They have the most unwatchable team. I had 81 game season ticket package from 96-09. I havent watched them for two years. Zero desire in watching a bunch of almost 40 year olds play a brutal brand of ball while the team pumps you up for the Jeter/Mo farewell tours. I wanted no part and havent watched for 2 years.
I took a look at this roster and havent invested 5 minutes. The bullpen is obviously very good, but the entire group of position players are about 37 years old and the only young guy cant hit his weight.

Im not anti-Aroid or anything. At least he had the monster post season in 09. That was some Bonds like hitting. The contract was stupid.

And Guns.. I have no problem with them letting Cano walk. Look at his postseason #s. They werent going to pay $25mm for a guy who cant hit in Oct. If anything ruined me it was Elsbury. So they wont pay $25mm to a home grown star who never missed games but they will pay $18mm to a Red Sock who cant stay healthy. Ever. Puke.

When the Yanks invest in their own farm system and have a couple position guys worth watching every day Ill bite

+1

This is awesome. I'm going to have to take a screen shot of this

hard to imagine, shocking even. one of us is an idiot savant, all we have to do is find out which sport it applies to.

TripleThreat wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote: Either way, the Steinbrenners come out looking bad, while A-Rod is playing well and acting professionally.

Simple solution would have been for ARod and the Yankees to come to an agreement.

ARod "volunteers" to donate the bonus to charity.

Yankees match the amount.

That's what? 12 million to help out some needy kids or help some schools or some youth sports program?

Take a wholly negative situation and make it a positive one.

Al Davis of the Raiders had a nasty habit of not paying his coaches after he fired them. Mike Shanahan finally "won" by saying take what I'm owed and give it to charity. When Davis refused, people hated Davis even more.

Yankees could have done the same thing to ARod, put him a no win situation where all he could do is try to get a little positive PR out of it. Everyone could have taken the tax write off for it and called it a day.

fishmike wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

fishmike wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

fishmike wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:6 million to the Yankees. What exactly is that in relative terms? Pay him, don't pay him, who gives a...
AnswerMan would probably say Just hit the ball. Right now, a-rod's back to hitting like sheehit.

Maybe he should pay the Yankees 6 million for that 4 strikeout, end the game by hitting into a double play, going 0-6 milestone?

We are winning, scoring runs, hitting homers and our bullpen is frankly beyond scary (hoping and praying that it lasts). A-rod is now a boring, overdone side story.

His walks and power #s are excellent. Our record would definitely be worse without him. What do you expect from a guy in his 21st season?

His OPS+ is currently 144 this year. Amazing for a 39 year old player. I anticipate a drop off at some point this season, but he is definitely helping the team to this point. Note that I'm not an Arod fan and did not like the contract at the time that Hank Steinbrenner forced upon the Yankees / Cashman. They did get a WS Championship out of both Arod and CC - but are paying the price now for contracts that were too long/too much money. I agree with your earlier point on Cano. Same thing, too long....too much money....pass. They made a similar mistake with Ellsbury - but aside from that, the older high contract guys will be dwindling as CC, Arod and Tex finally come off the books. McCann's contract is a concern, but I think they overpaid based on his catching abilities / handling of the pitching staff which I am OK with.

What good signings have the Yankees made in the last 15 years? They have the most unwatchable team. I had 81 game season ticket package from 96-09. I havent watched them for two years. Zero desire in watching a bunch of almost 40 year olds play a brutal brand of ball while the team pumps you up for the Jeter/Mo farewell tours. I wanted no part and havent watched for 2 years.
I took a look at this roster and havent invested 5 minutes. The bullpen is obviously very good, but the entire group of position players are about 37 years old and the only young guy cant hit his weight.

Im not anti-Aroid or anything. At least he had the monster post season in 09. That was some Bonds like hitting. The contract was stupid.

And Guns.. I have no problem with them letting Cano walk. Look at his postseason #s. They werent going to pay $25mm for a guy who cant hit in Oct. If anything ruined me it was Elsbury. So they wont pay $25mm to a home grown star who never missed games but they will pay $18mm to a Red Sock who cant stay healthy. Ever. Puke.

When the Yanks invest in their own farm system and have a couple position guys worth watching every day Ill bite

fish, Aaron Judge and the rest of the up and comers say hello. You need to peruse the actual Yankee thread in the OT Forum. Some good posts in there about what's in the farm system right now.

At least, until we trade most of them for Big Poppy.

and thats fine... no Yankee hate or bitterness... I simply have better things to do than watch that team.

When we have 4-5 guys in the field (at least) that you can figure being around for 5-8 years Ill check it out. In 5-8 years most of this roster will be glue.

What really kills me is the type of ball they play. They won titles around teams that could pitch, play defense and most importantly put the bat on the ball. In the past the Yanks would always pass on the power guys in favor of high on base % and guys who could put the bat on the ball. Now they are a team that does little but swing and miss and wait for the long ball. Mostly they are just an old and uninteresting group. Even if they get hot their style of play never wins a titles.

I think you are referring to the past several seasons rather than this year. They have started move away from the big bopping line-up with Ellsbury and Gardner at the top of the order. Most of their position players are in their early 30s...and they have re-focused on Defense with the additions of Drew, Headley, Young and McCann over the past 2 seasons. After signing CC - they changed their model to focus on young flamethrowers with multiple pitches. They also have modeled the bullpen after the late 90's with Betances and Miller the closest thing to Mariano & Wetland that they'll ever proximate. With the exception of CC, their entire staff is under 28 and locked into efficient contracts (except Tanaka). Tanaka looks like a good investment even if he undergoes Tommy John surgery as he is only 26 and was un-hittable when healthy.

Most of the older guys are leftovers from the 2009 Championship run. Can't begrudge the team trying to constantly stay on top, winning a ship and having to carry some baggage after the fact. The Yanks also do have some good young prospects waiting in the wings such as Severino, Judge, Mateo and Sanchez.

I can begrudge them... because the type of players they have gone after are the exact types they stayed away from in the 90s/00s when they were winning. Big money guys who swing and miss. Remember, for each one of those idiotic massively long contracts they doled out they also gave up draft picks for. Seems like all their position players are either total dinosaurs at 36-39 years old, or they are 31 and signed to stupid contacts until they are 36-39.

I mean I looked at this team as about .500 and I still do. They only thing that might upgrade that is how bad the east appears.

I hope your right about the prospects. More likely the Yanks spend their way to a playoff berth in a weak division and kid themselves into thinking they are back. Sigh... It was a great run they had. It was wonderful to watch all those games, many of which I was there for in person. I just dont see the talent. With a $200mm plus payroll they had to start getting creative with cheaper and younger players. Put the money in the farm system. Not in the big league team until there is something worth paying for. 4-5 more years of Ellsbury, McCann, Gardner and Headley. Those are the young guys... bleh.

Maybe Im a bit jaded by how I was handled when they moved to the new stadium. I had M9 for like 12 years. Same two seats. They asked us if we wanted similar price or location. We said location, figuring it was worth paying more if the seats remained great. We went from between 1st/home on the home side to being past the right field foul pole and those seats were $25 MORE ($60-$85). Eh... I look back I got my money's worth. Great teams, great players, great dynasty. It came crashing to an end. Now Ive just moved on. I have zero emotions when it comes to the Yankees. Im bandwagon at best now. If they are good this fall Ill watch. Otherwise wake me when they are younger than I am. PS I was born in 73

I don't know what Yankees you've been watching, but Tino became Giambi who became Tex. Big money swingers. George signed names at all positions, for decades. Brosius, Matsui, Damon. And you don't even mention the nightmare of waht we spent (and continue to spend) on the big name pitchers. The Big Unit, etc, etc.

I cannot, however, begrudge you your cynicism based on them moving you out to the foul pole in right field. That's cold. Yet you enjoyed watching Bernie and Posada age; so old, overpaid farts are fine as long as they are OUR overpaid old farts? I don't get the constant whining and pining for yoots, while sheehitting on Girardi and small ball and insane pitching [too bad you weren't watching ****ing Whitley throw those 6 innings last]. night].

Bonn1997 wrote:It's amazing how much unhappiness there is here among Yankees fans. I've really enjoyed the team this year. The team was lousy for a few years but is back in first place.

+1

Welcome to the light side of the force, Bonn.

dk7th wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Yeah, that would be a nice thing to do but a player should not be under an obligation or expectation to give his entire bonus to charity.

The complicated thing is both sides have a point.

If the Yankees wanted more protection, they should have included a more complex morality clause into the contract. However those kind of clauses can be problematic in nature.

On the flip side, ARod has to accept that part and parcel with chasing the home run record was that more exposure to his scandal occurs each time he gets closer to the record and will groundswell when/if he breaks it.

There's what you can do and there's what will be the path of least resistance for everyone. In my book, if you already are loaded, passing on 6 million and just taking the tax write off is a small price to pay to keep things low and calm, esp when things you've done in the past could land you in prison.

Clearly there is a lot of bad blood still from when the scandal was first announced about the PEDs.

The funniest part of all of this is Jose Canseco, the MLB pariah was right. No one wanted to believe him, but he was right.

That's why I object to the singling out of A-Rod. It's just MLB's way of distracting the public from how widespread the problem was. During the steroid era, using steroids probably just meant you were leveling the playing field.
What do you mean about prison?

a-rod arguing with the yankees over 6 million is more grist for the mill. the narcissism and compartmentalization here is breathtaking. he is bringing the attention upon himself, and that's what he wants. it would be brave of him to take ownership of his cheating and forgo the bonus, and the right thing to do.

in essence, he is singling himself out by making this an issue.

jrodmc wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:It's amazing how much unhappiness there is here among Yankees fans. I've really enjoyed the team this year. The team was lousy for a few years but is back in first place.

+1

Welcome to the light side of the force, Bonn.

I do think Girardi is an excellent manager, and since his time in Fla has shown he can really manage a staff and pen. There just isnt a single position player that interests me enough to follow. Not a single one.

Bonn1997 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Yeah, that would be a nice thing to do but a player should not be under an obligation or expectation to give his entire bonus to charity.

The complicated thing is both sides have a point.

If the Yankees wanted more protection, they should have included a more complex morality clause into the contract. However those kind of clauses can be problematic in nature.

On the flip side, ARod has to accept that part and parcel with chasing the home run record was that more exposure to his scandal occurs each time he gets closer to the record and will groundswell when/if he breaks it.

There's what you can do and there's what will be the path of least resistance for everyone. In my book, if you already are loaded, passing on 6 million and just taking the tax write off is a small price to pay to keep things low and calm, esp when things you've done in the past could land you in prison.

Clearly there is a lot of bad blood still from when the scandal was first announced about the PEDs.

The funniest part of all of this is Jose Canseco, the MLB pariah was right. No one wanted to believe him, but he was right.

That's why I object to the singling out of A-Rod. It's just MLB's way of distracting the public from how widespread the problem was. During the steroid era, using steroids probably just meant you were leveling the playing field.
What do you mean about prison?

a-rod arguing with the yankees over 6 million is more grist for the mill. the narcissism and compartmentalization here is breathtaking. he is bringing the attention upon himself, and that's what he wants. it would be brave of him to take ownership of his cheating and forgo the bonus, and the right thing to do.

in essence, he is singling himself out by making this an issue.

The MLBPA is the one challenging this. They will never let a $6 mil bonus go unpaid without challenging it.
Cashman has been discussing it publicly while A-Rod has kept quiet.

then arod should be telling them to stop!!! is that too much to ask?

Should people be telling Cashman to stop discussing the issue with reporters?
I'm sure the players association objects to the principle of punishing the player twice for the same behavior (suspension and loss of pay for a year and then no performance bonuses). I can understand standing up for that principle. Once someone serves their time in prison, you can't tell them there's a new punishment and they have to go back. Every decision sets a precedent for all future mlb players. The MLBPA does not want the precedent that steroid use voids contractual obligations. There already are separate punishments in place for steroid use.

yeah sure they should. but that is a separate matter and frankly it distracts from the fact that arod could put the matter to rest in one of two different ways, both of which would mean he would not get a single penny for breaking mays's record. i just think there is a larger issue here, having to do with the "spirit" of the game, bringing it back to a level of integrity. this situation is much the same in spirit as macguire, sosa, bonds, even pettitte and giambi... that is to say nauseating, and nauseating not because of the legal issues or the letter of the law, but nauseating because what gets lost is doing the right thing! so by drawing this out and hiding behind legalese he promotes ill-will.

here's a question:

did bonds really break ruth's record?
did bonds really break macguire and sosa's single season record, who in turn collectively broke maris's record?

Bonn1997 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Yeah, that would be a nice thing to do but a player should not be under an obligation or expectation to give his entire bonus to charity.

The complicated thing is both sides have a point.

If the Yankees wanted more protection, they should have included a more complex morality clause into the contract. However those kind of clauses can be problematic in nature.

On the flip side, ARod has to accept that part and parcel with chasing the home run record was that more exposure to his scandal occurs each time he gets closer to the record and will groundswell when/if he breaks it.

There's what you can do and there's what will be the path of least resistance for everyone. In my book, if you already are loaded, passing on 6 million and just taking the tax write off is a small price to pay to keep things low and calm, esp when things you've done in the past could land you in prison.

Clearly there is a lot of bad blood still from when the scandal was first announced about the PEDs.

The funniest part of all of this is Jose Canseco, the MLB pariah was right. No one wanted to believe him, but he was right.

That's why I object to the singling out of A-Rod. It's just MLB's way of distracting the public from how widespread the problem was. During the steroid era, using steroids probably just meant you were leveling the playing field.
What do you mean about prison?

a-rod arguing with the yankees over 6 million is more grist for the mill. the narcissism and compartmentalization here is breathtaking. he is bringing the attention upon himself, and that's what he wants. it would be brave of him to take ownership of his cheating and forgo the bonus, and the right thing to do.

in essence, he is singling himself out by making this an issue.

The MLBPA is the one challenging this. They will never let a $6 mil bonus go unpaid without challenging it.
Cashman has been discussing it publicly while A-Rod has kept quiet.

then arod should be telling them to stop!!! is that too much to ask?

Should people be telling Cashman to stop discussing the issue with reporters?
I'm sure the players association objects to the principle of punishing the player twice for the same behavior (suspension and loss of pay for a year and then no performance bonuses). I can understand standing up for that principle. Once someone serves their time in prison, you can't tell them there's a new punishment and they have to go back. Every decision sets a precedent for all future mlb players. The MLBPA does not want the precedent that steroid use voids contractual obligations. There already are separate punishments in place for steroid use.

yeah sure they should. but that is a separate matter and frankly it distracts from the fact that arod could put the matter to rest in one of two different ways, both of which would mean he would not get a single penny for breaking mays's record. i just think there is a larger issue here, having to do with the "spirit" of the game, bringing it back to a level of integrity. this situation is much the same in spirit as macguire, sosa, bonds, even pettitte and giambi... that is to say nauseating, and nauseating not because of the legal issues or the letter of the law, but nauseating because what gets lost is doing the right thing! so by drawing this out and hiding behind legalese he promotes ill-will.

here's a question:

did bonds really break ruth's record?
did bonds really break macguire and sosa's single season record, who in turn collectively broke maris's record?

Do you put an asterisk next to Ruth's and Maris's records since they never had to face a racial minority pitcher? They just faced a diluted pool of pitching talent from one race? Every record could have an asterisk next to it. There's no such thing as a squeaky clean record - certainly not in the game of baseball. I tend to think of baseball as a game where most players have always done as much cheating as they could get away with.

you have a point. even looking past the dead ball era and ballparks with home run fences that were much further back in those days, you do have a point. how about answering my questions, which were not rhetorical (for a change)?