fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

franco12 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:Love sounds like a whiny loser.

Pass.

I don't know if he is a whiny loser, but he certainly has not had a positive impact in Cleveland - they went 2 & 9 with Lebron out - what does that say about Love? He puts up numbers, but not wins.

Melo & Love would be a horrible arrangement cap wise and shallow numbers wise(great stats, no wins).

I think I might love to trade Melo for Love- I get younger and maybe a player who while not as good, could perhaps play a valuable role as a stretch 4 and a rebuilding team.

I honestly see him heading to the Lakers- makes so much sense for him & them.

Love is not having the same year as last year but he is still putting up very very solid numbers.

WS48 of .169 says that he is definitely contributing at a high level towards wins.

those #s are still based on differentials, EFF% and scoring. So if your scoring at an eff% rate, and play for a good team your WS48 is going to be good. Im not impressed by Love's #s looking good next to Lebron and Kyrie who is now a top 5 guard in the league

Let him go to LA where he can continue to be a billionaire's David Lee and never make the playoffs.

jrodmc wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

franco12 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:Love sounds like a whiny loser.

Pass.

I don't know if he is a whiny loser, but he certainly has not had a positive impact in Cleveland - they went 2 & 9 with Lebron out - what does that say about Love? He puts up numbers, but not wins.

Melo & Love would be a horrible arrangement cap wise and shallow numbers wise(great stats, no wins).

I think I might love to trade Melo for Love- I get younger and maybe a player who while not as good, could perhaps play a valuable role as a stretch 4 and a rebuilding team.

I honestly see him heading to the Lakers- makes so much sense for him & them.

Love is not having the same year as last year but he is still putting up very very solid numbers.

WS48 of .169 says that he is definitely contributing at a high level towards wins.

those #s are still based on differentials, EFF% and scoring. So if your scoring at an eff% rate, and play for a good team your WS48 is going to be good. Im not impressed by Love's #s looking good next to Lebron and Kyrie who is now a top 5 guard in the league

+1 fish
And Amen to the bold. It's always been Love's track record, and playing with the best player in the solar system, the only thing he has to show so far is 2-9 when he's the man and trying to pick fights via the media with the King O'Cleveland. Hardly inspiring.

Let him go to LA where he can continue to be a billionaire's David Lee and never make the playoffs.

how did Minny win 40 games last year?

dk7th wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

smackeddog wrote:If we got Love, would you prefer we'd drafted Russell or Towns? We'd only have about 7mil left to fill out the roster remember.

Basketball is about quality not quantity. People like to point to the Spurs' team oriented play and herald this as some kind of Age of the Role Player but these people seem to forget the fact that that the Spurs have sported no less than 3 all-stars, including one HOF, for the past decade. So no matter how big their expendable talent plays, you need major talents (that fits) to win. I personally don't think that Melo and Love fit especially well with one another but we need all the talent we can get. I'd sign Love at all costs, then sort out the mess later.

you're oversimplifying and don't understand how the spurs have been so successful.

Yup, I'm sure. It's just a coincidence that Tim Duncan was selected no.1 overall in his draft and rightfully anointed an inevitable superstar. It's only a coincidence that Tony Parker was usually among the top scorers in the paint for more than half a decade. It's only a coincidence that Manu Ginobili was a perennial all-star candidate for a decade. I'm just "oversimplifying" stuff. I'm sure the Spurs would waltz to the Finals every year with Patty Mills, Boris Diaw and Danny Green playing Tony Parker's, Tim Duncan's and Manu Ginobili's minutes.

NardDogNation wrote:

dk7th wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

smackeddog wrote:If we got Love, would you prefer we'd drafted Russell or Towns? We'd only have about 7mil left to fill out the roster remember.

Basketball is about quality not quantity. People like to point to the Spurs' team oriented play and herald this as some kind of Age of the Role Player but these people seem to forget the fact that that the Spurs have sported no less than 3 all-stars, including one HOF, for the past decade. So no matter how big their expendable talent plays, you need major talents (that fits) to win. I personally don't think that Melo and Love fit especially well with one another but we need all the talent we can get. I'd sign Love at all costs, then sort out the mess later.

you're oversimplifying and don't understand how the spurs have been so successful.

Yup, I'm sure. It's just a coincidence that Tim Duncan was selected no.1 overall in his draft and rightfully anointed an inevitable superstar. It's only a coincidence that Tony Parker was usually among the top scorers in the paint for more than half a decade. It's only a coincidence that Manu Ginobili was a perennial all-star candidate for a decade. I'm just "oversimplifying" stuff. I'm sure the Spurs would waltz to the Finals every year with Patty Mills, Boris Diaw and Danny Green playing Tony Parker's, Tim Duncan's and Manu Ginobili's minutes.

The key part of what you said is that Melo and Love don't fit. So what's the point? The Spurs also drafted Duncan, Parker and Ginobili.

If anyone thinks we're signing Kevin Love outright in FA... it's not happening. They'll trade the pick.

I'd prefer to draft a player who fits with Melo. Kevin Love and Melo would be the worst defensive forward combination since... Amar'e and... Melo.

mreinman wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

franco12 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:Love sounds like a whiny loser.

Pass.

I don't know if he is a whiny loser, but he certainly has not had a positive impact in Cleveland - they went 2 & 9 with Lebron out - what does that say about Love? He puts up numbers, but not wins.

Melo & Love would be a horrible arrangement cap wise and shallow numbers wise(great stats, no wins).

I think I might love to trade Melo for Love- I get younger and maybe a player who while not as good, could perhaps play a valuable role as a stretch 4 and a rebuilding team.

I honestly see him heading to the Lakers- makes so much sense for him & them.

Love is not having the same year as last year but he is still putting up very very solid numbers.

WS48 of .169 says that he is definitely contributing at a high level towards wins.

those #s are still based on differentials, EFF% and scoring. So if your scoring at an eff% rate, and play for a good team your WS48 is going to be good. Im not impressed by Love's #s looking good next to Lebron and Kyrie who is now a top 5 guard in the league

+1 fish
And Amen to the bold. It's always been Love's track record, and playing with the best player in the solar system, the only thing he has to show so far is 2-9 when he's the man and trying to pick fights via the media with the King O'Cleveland. Hardly inspiring.

Let him go to LA where he can continue to be a billionaire's David Lee and never make the playoffs.

how did Minny win 40 games last year?

Kevin Martin had an excellent year. Pecovich had a breakout year last year. I believe he's been hurt all year. Corey Brewer played 80 games and had a career season. He's been on the shelf most of this year as well. I mean Minn had a decent team last year, and Love was decent too.

How did Minn only win 17 games when Love put up 20ppg and 15rebs?

Love is good. He's just not THAT good, and he's getting exposed in Cle every which way but loose. He misses a lot of games as well.

I would rather pay some of the 2nd tier guys like Monroe or Milsap over Love.

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

franco12 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:Love sounds like a whiny loser.

Pass.

I don't know if he is a whiny loser, but he certainly has not had a positive impact in Cleveland - they went 2 & 9 with Lebron out - what does that say about Love? He puts up numbers, but not wins.

Melo & Love would be a horrible arrangement cap wise and shallow numbers wise(great stats, no wins).

I think I might love to trade Melo for Love- I get younger and maybe a player who while not as good, could perhaps play a valuable role as a stretch 4 and a rebuilding team.

I honestly see him heading to the Lakers- makes so much sense for him & them.

Love is not having the same year as last year but he is still putting up very very solid numbers.

WS48 of .169 says that he is definitely contributing at a high level towards wins.

those #s are still based on differentials, EFF% and scoring. So if your scoring at an eff% rate, and play for a good team your WS48 is going to be good. Im not impressed by Love's #s looking good next to Lebron and Kyrie who is now a top 5 guard in the league

+1 fish
And Amen to the bold. It's always been Love's track record, and playing with the best player in the solar system, the only thing he has to show so far is 2-9 when he's the man and trying to pick fights via the media with the King O'Cleveland. Hardly inspiring.

Let him go to LA where he can continue to be a billionaire's David Lee and never make the playoffs.

how did Minny win 40 games last year?

Same way Knicks went from 54 to 38 or whatever they won. Guys played much better last year.

Kevin Martin had an excellent year. Pecovich had a breakout year last year. I believe he's been hurt all year. Corey Brewer played 80 games and had a career season. He's been on the shelf most of this year as well. I mean Minn had a decent team last year, and Love was decent too.

How did Minn only win 17 games when Love put up 20ppg and 15rebs?

Love is good. He's just not THAT good, and he's getting exposed in Cle every which way but loose. He misses a lot of games as well.

I would rather pay some of the 2nd tier guys like Monroe or Milsap over Love.

I would not go after love and pay him the max either.

Also, guys may have had career years last year because of him. If they were not the worst shooting team in the league, maybe they could have even have won 50 games.

He is not getting exposed this year at all, he is having a very good year. His efficiency numbers are as good as Melo put up in his best years. He is being marginalized by a non team oriented playing style. He has also played hurt all year, and I do agree that he is always an injury risk which is why I would pass on him. A healthy kevin love is a phenomenal player.

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

franco12 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:Love sounds like a whiny loser.

Pass.

I don't know if he is a whiny loser, but he certainly has not had a positive impact in Cleveland - they went 2 & 9 with Lebron out - what does that say about Love? He puts up numbers, but not wins.

Melo & Love would be a horrible arrangement cap wise and shallow numbers wise(great stats, no wins).

I think I might love to trade Melo for Love- I get younger and maybe a player who while not as good, could perhaps play a valuable role as a stretch 4 and a rebuilding team.

I honestly see him heading to the Lakers- makes so much sense for him & them.

Love is not having the same year as last year but he is still putting up very very solid numbers.

WS48 of .169 says that he is definitely contributing at a high level towards wins.

those #s are still based on differentials, EFF% and scoring. So if your scoring at an eff% rate, and play for a good team your WS48 is going to be good. Im not impressed by Love's #s looking good next to Lebron and Kyrie who is now a top 5 guard in the league

+1 fish
And Amen to the bold. It's always been Love's track record, and playing with the best player in the solar system, the only thing he has to show so far is 2-9 when he's the man and trying to pick fights via the media with the King O'Cleveland. Hardly inspiring.

Let him go to LA where he can continue to be a billionaire's David Lee and never make the playoffs.

how did Minny win 40 games last year?

Same way Knicks went from 54 to 38 or whatever they won. Guys played much better last year.

Kevin Martin had an excellent year. Pecovich had a breakout year last year. I believe he's been hurt all year. Corey Brewer played 80 games and had a career season. He's been on the shelf most of this year as well. I mean Minn had a decent team last year, and Love was decent too.

How did Minn only win 17 games when Love put up 20ppg and 15rebs?

Love is good. He's just not THAT good, and he's getting exposed in Cle every which way but loose. He misses a lot of games as well.

I would rather pay some of the 2nd tier guys like Monroe or Milsap over Love.

I would not go after love and pay him the max either.

Also, guys may have had career years last year because of him. If they were not the worst shooting team in the league, maybe they could have even have won 50 games.

He is not getting exposed this year at all, he is having a very good year. His efficiency numbers are as good as Melo put up in his best years. He is being marginalized by a non team oriented playing style. He has also played hurt all year, and I do agree that he is always an injury risk which is why I would pass on him. A healthy kevin love is a phenomenal player.

which never happens. He's a notch... a really small notch better than David Lee, and considering their $$$ requirements and draft position Im far more impressed with what Lee has done with his career. Pretty much the same impact

Love is a stretch 4 and opens up the floor while still getting a crazy number of rebounds. Its really not close.

WS48 for career:

Love: 186
Lee: 140
Melo: 136

The only reason why Love keeps getting compared to Lee is because they are both white (and maybe since they are both white, they both cant defend).

Love had a WS48 of 224 ... that is off the charts. You may not respect this stat but I think that it is extremely valuable especially when people make stretch comparison.

mreinman wrote:

Love is a stretch 4 and opens up the floor while still getting a crazy number of rebounds. Its really not close.

WS48 for career:

Love: 186
Lee: 140
Melo: 136

The only reason why Love keeps getting compared to Lee is because they are both white (and maybe since they are both white, they both cant defend).

Love had a WS48 of 224 ... that is off the charts. You may not respect this stat but I think that it is extremely valuable especially when people make stretch comparison.

Love is a far superior shooter and rebounder to DLee. Lee is the better passer/playmaker and teammate. KLove's teammates do not like him. He put Minnesota in a terrible position last year.

Honestly, as a player I think he's good - overrated but good. His personality is major red flags. He's sulking because he's third banana on a championship contender. He's gonna want to play second fiddle to Melo? I dunno.

I think if Love had his choice, he might go to Boston so he could be the team's face. He goes to LA it's still Kobe's team. NY is Melo's. For better or worse. I'm not really clear on Chicago's cap situation... but I could Chicago possibly trying to make a move for Love as well. They've always coveted him. But he's a division rival for Cleveland, which makes a trade less likely.

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

franco12 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:Love sounds like a whiny loser.

Pass.

I don't know if he is a whiny loser, but he certainly has not had a positive impact in Cleveland - they went 2 & 9 with Lebron out - what does that say about Love? He puts up numbers, but not wins.

Melo & Love would be a horrible arrangement cap wise and shallow numbers wise(great stats, no wins).

I think I might love to trade Melo for Love- I get younger and maybe a player who while not as good, could perhaps play a valuable role as a stretch 4 and a rebuilding team.

I honestly see him heading to the Lakers- makes so much sense for him & them.

Love is not having the same year as last year but he is still putting up very very solid numbers.

WS48 of .169 says that he is definitely contributing at a high level towards wins.

those #s are still based on differentials, EFF% and scoring. So if your scoring at an eff% rate, and play for a good team your WS48 is going to be good. Im not impressed by Love's #s looking good next to Lebron and Kyrie who is now a top 5 guard in the league

+1 fish
And Amen to the bold. It's always been Love's track record, and playing with the best player in the solar system, the only thing he has to show so far is 2-9 when he's the man and trying to pick fights via the media with the King O'Cleveland. Hardly inspiring.

Let him go to LA where he can continue to be a billionaire's David Lee and never make the playoffs.

how did Minny win 40 games last year?

Same way Knicks went from 54 to 38 or whatever they won. Guys played much better last year.

Kevin Martin had an excellent year. Pecovich had a breakout year last year. I believe he's been hurt all year. Corey Brewer played 80 games and had a career season. He's been on the shelf most of this year as well. I mean Minn had a decent team last year, and Love was decent too.

How did Minn only win 17 games when Love put up 20ppg and 15rebs?

Love is good. He's just not THAT good, and he's getting exposed in Cle every which way but loose. He misses a lot of games as well.

I would rather pay some of the 2nd tier guys like Monroe or Milsap over Love.

I would not go after love and pay him the max either.

Also, guys may have had career years last year because of him. If they were not the worst shooting team in the league, maybe they could have even have won 50 games.

He is not getting exposed this year at all, he is having a very good year. His efficiency numbers are as good as Melo put up in his best years. He is being marginalized by a non team oriented playing style. He has also played hurt all year, and I do agree that he is always an injury risk which is why I would pass on him. A healthy kevin love is a phenomenal player.

which never happens. He's a notch... a really small notch better than David Lee, and considering their $$$ requirements and draft position Im far more impressed with what Lee has done with his career. Pretty much the same impact

Love is a stretch 4 and opens up the floor while still getting a crazy number of rebounds. Its really not close.

WS48 for career:

Love: 186
Lee: 140
Melo: 136

The only reason why Love keeps getting compared to Lee is because they are both white (and maybe since they are both white, they both cant defend).

Love had a WS48 of 224 ... that is off the charts. You may not respect this stat but I think that it is extremely valuable especially when people make stretch comparison.

I value WS much less than something like TS%, which nicely factors in effeciency.

But yes.. I still believe that BB is the most chemistry related sport. Much more than baseball (a pure stats sport) or football (a pure Xs and Os) sport.

Do you believe "intangibles" exist?

Lee doesnt shoot the 3 but he's got good range on that jumper, is an excellent rebounder and an excellent scorer. Neither play a lick of defense aside from boardning. Ill take Lee at $10mm vs. Love at $18mm morning noon and night

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

franco12 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:Love sounds like a whiny loser.

Pass.

I don't know if he is a whiny loser, but he certainly has not had a positive impact in Cleveland - they went 2 & 9 with Lebron out - what does that say about Love? He puts up numbers, but not wins.

Melo & Love would be a horrible arrangement cap wise and shallow numbers wise(great stats, no wins).

I think I might love to trade Melo for Love- I get younger and maybe a player who while not as good, could perhaps play a valuable role as a stretch 4 and a rebuilding team.

I honestly see him heading to the Lakers- makes so much sense for him & them.

Love is not having the same year as last year but he is still putting up very very solid numbers.

WS48 of .169 says that he is definitely contributing at a high level towards wins.

those #s are still based on differentials, EFF% and scoring. So if your scoring at an eff% rate, and play for a good team your WS48 is going to be good. Im not impressed by Love's #s looking good next to Lebron and Kyrie who is now a top 5 guard in the league

+1 fish
And Amen to the bold. It's always been Love's track record, and playing with the best player in the solar system, the only thing he has to show so far is 2-9 when he's the man and trying to pick fights via the media with the King O'Cleveland. Hardly inspiring.

Let him go to LA where he can continue to be a billionaire's David Lee and never make the playoffs.

how did Minny win 40 games last year?

Same way Knicks went from 54 to 38 or whatever they won. Guys played much better last year.

Kevin Martin had an excellent year. Pecovich had a breakout year last year. I believe he's been hurt all year. Corey Brewer played 80 games and had a career season. He's been on the shelf most of this year as well. I mean Minn had a decent team last year, and Love was decent too.

How did Minn only win 17 games when Love put up 20ppg and 15rebs?

Love is good. He's just not THAT good, and he's getting exposed in Cle every which way but loose. He misses a lot of games as well.

I would rather pay some of the 2nd tier guys like Monroe or Milsap over Love.

I would not go after love and pay him the max either.

Also, guys may have had career years last year because of him. If they were not the worst shooting team in the league, maybe they could have even have won 50 games.

He is not getting exposed this year at all, he is having a very good year. His efficiency numbers are as good as Melo put up in his best years. He is being marginalized by a non team oriented playing style. He has also played hurt all year, and I do agree that he is always an injury risk which is why I would pass on him. A healthy kevin love is a phenomenal player.

which never happens. He's a notch... a really small notch better than David Lee, and considering their $$$ requirements and draft position Im far more impressed with what Lee has done with his career. Pretty much the same impact

Love is a stretch 4 and opens up the floor while still getting a crazy number of rebounds. Its really not close.

WS48 for career:

Love: 186
Lee: 140
Melo: 136

The only reason why Love keeps getting compared to Lee is because they are both white (and maybe since they are both white, they both cant defend).

Love had a WS48 of 224 ... that is off the charts. You may not respect this stat but I think that it is extremely valuable especially when people make stretch comparison.

I respect it with all stats. But its compiled from other stats. And Love is a documented stat whore. Its funny.. for all Melo's negatives he joined a team that hadnt been to the playoffs for like 8 years, then they draft him and make the playoffs every year. For him it was about *failing* in the playoffs. I statistically took apart Melo's playoff performances and started a thread essentially saying the reason for Melo's playoff failures is Melo. But he got there. Love is simply not an impact player. WS is OK, but ALL IT USES are the same stats that you say are not the good stats. It takes them all, compiles them, and dishes out a slice (WS) based on.... stats. Love is more EFF% than Melo scoring. Also has a lower usage rate and absolutely 100% pads his rebounding stats. Go to a Minn board and ask "did Love pad his rebounding stats" and get back to me. So Im just not impressed by this # that is derived from the other traditional #s.

I value WS much less than something like TS%, which nicely factors in effeciency.

But yes.. I still believe that BB is the most chemistry related sport. Much more than baseball (a pure stats sport) or football (a pure Xs and Os) sport.

Do you believe "intangibles" exist?

Lee doesnt shoot the 3 but he's got good range on that jumper, is an excellent rebounder and an excellent scorer. Neither play a lick of defense aside from boardning. Ill take Lee at $10mm vs. Love at $18mm morning noon and night

Lee @10 is a good deal but your forgetting how many games he misses too.

Every teams fan base complains about their players just like the number of NY that despised Ewing for so many reasons (in their minds).

Rebound padding? Could be. That could be said about many players. How did he do that? Miss shots intentionally? Or was the alpha that demanded the freebies?

Melo should not get sole credit for the knicks winning just like Love is not at fault for the minny losing. If you want to discuss how bad Minny was, especially shooting the ball, I have a lot of data on that.

Can't do anything in a vacuum.

Melo's Denver teams not going further was not really Melo's fault and he gets too much blame for that as well. You are what your team is.

You think that Love is not a good teammate but Melo is? C'mon ... that's a bit biased.

crzymdups wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

dk7th wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

smackeddog wrote:If we got Love, would you prefer we'd drafted Russell or Towns? We'd only have about 7mil left to fill out the roster remember.

Basketball is about quality not quantity. People like to point to the Spurs' team oriented play and herald this as some kind of Age of the Role Player but these people seem to forget the fact that that the Spurs have sported no less than 3 all-stars, including one HOF, for the past decade. So no matter how big their expendable talent plays, you need major talents (that fits) to win. I personally don't think that Melo and Love fit especially well with one another but we need all the talent we can get. I'd sign Love at all costs, then sort out the mess later.

you're oversimplifying and don't understand how the spurs have been so successful.

Yup, I'm sure. It's just a coincidence that Tim Duncan was selected no.1 overall in his draft and rightfully anointed an inevitable superstar. It's only a coincidence that Tony Parker was usually among the top scorers in the paint for more than half a decade. It's only a coincidence that Manu Ginobili was a perennial all-star candidate for a decade. I'm just "oversimplifying" stuff. I'm sure the Spurs would waltz to the Finals every year with Patty Mills, Boris Diaw and Danny Green playing Tony Parker's, Tim Duncan's and Manu Ginobili's minutes.

The key part of what you said is that Melo and Love don't fit. So what's the point? The Spurs also drafted Duncan, Parker and Ginobili.

If anyone thinks we're signing Kevin Love outright in FA... it's not happening. They'll trade the pick.

I'd prefer to draft a player who fits with Melo. Kevin Love and Melo would be the worst defensive forward combination since... Amar'e and... Melo.

I don't see the relevance of his comments about the Spurs and my earlier comments supporting us signing Kevin Love. As I already said though, I actually think Melo and Love would be piss poor fits on defense (as well as on offense). That isn't the point though!

The reality is that we are NOT winning diddly squat next season, and should be collecting as many assets as we can regardless of "fit". This strategy has been the surest way that teams in our predicament have been able to turn their fortunes around. Case and point, Danny Ainge didn't give a damn about "fits" before he gathered enough assets to make the Garnett and Allen trades. And he's imploring that same strategy again to turn around the Celtics. Mitch Kupchak also didn't give a damn about fits before he had enough assets to acquire Pau Gasol in 2008. We should adapt that same philosophy until we figure out a way to pursue that kinds of players that do fit. IMO. Kevin Love is an excellent bargaining chip to start that process. And best of all, it won't cost us anything but cap space to get him! That's a net gain in my book.

Some food for thought: What happens if Anthony Davis demands a trade or expresses his desire to leave in 2016 or 2017? Do you think having Kevin Love helps or hurts our pursuit of him if he's back to his MIN form (i.e. 25, 15 and 4)?