holfresh wrote:

helloharv wrote:

holfresh wrote:I was a big Love fan and I'm down on him..Alarm bells went off when he didn't really step up on the Olympic team...He really didn't assert himself..Now you are really seeing it on the Cavs...No way I'll give Love 20 mil per...The money can be spent more wisely..I'll rather pass and wait...

don't you think it would be tough for him to be the 3rd wheel after being the man for his entire life?

here he can be the man on some nights and the 2nd in charge all other nights

I can't wait for the playoffs because it will tell the story...He will have to step up in the playoffs..I'm just not sure if it's just a case of him needing to be the man or have no impact at all...It is kind of alarming that his team in Minny never made the playoffs..Say what you want about Melo, he teams were always in the playoffs in Denver...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2015.html

i am providing you with the link to a page that should clear things up. when looking at the advanced stats you will notice that kevin love's defensive win share is superior to both lebron's and irving's. on espn his real defensive plus/minus has him 10th among power forwards. it turns out that he is an above-average defender-- unless you ignore the advanced metrics.

meanwhile his TS% is at 56% which is not great but is exactly the same as carmelo's better seasons. so if you consider melo an effective scorer then i guess you'll have to say the same about love, and this is with love in a diminished role in cleveland.

and the playoff failure meme is a canard. take a look at those wolves lineups. second-rate and awful. put melo on those teams and it's unmitigated disaster!

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

helloharv wrote:

holfresh wrote:I was a big Love fan and I'm down on him..Alarm bells went off when he didn't really step up on the Olympic team...He really didn't assert himself..Now you are really seeing it on the Cavs...No way I'll give Love 20 mil per...The money can be spent more wisely..I'll rather pass and wait...

don't you think it would be tough for him to be the 3rd wheel after being the man for his entire life?

here he can be the man on some nights and the 2nd in charge all other nights

I can't wait for the playoffs because it will tell the story...He will have to step up in the playoffs..I'm just not sure if it's just a case of him needing to be the man or have no impact at all...It is kind of alarming that his team in Minny never made the playoffs..Say what you want about Melo, he teams were always in the playoffs in Denver...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2015.html

i am providing you with the link to a page that should clear things up. when looking at the advanced stats you will notice that kevin love's defensive win share is superior to both lebron's and irving's. on espn his real defensive plus/minus has him 10th among power forwards. it turns out that he is an above-average defender-- unless you ignore the advanced metrics.

meanwhile his TS% is at 56% which is not great but is exactly the same as carmelo's better seasons. so if you consider melo an effective scorer then i guess you'll have to say the same about love, and this is with love in a diminished role in cleveland.

and the playoff failure meme is a canard. take a look at those wolves lineups. second-rate and awful. put melo on those teams and it's unmitigated disaster!

So let me get this straight..According to advanced stats, KLove is the best defender on Cleveland Cavs or his defense leads to more wins??

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

helloharv wrote:

holfresh wrote:I was a big Love fan and I'm down on him..Alarm bells went off when he didn't really step up on the Olympic team...He really didn't assert himself..Now you are really seeing it on the Cavs...No way I'll give Love 20 mil per...The money can be spent more wisely..I'll rather pass and wait...

don't you think it would be tough for him to be the 3rd wheel after being the man for his entire life?

here he can be the man on some nights and the 2nd in charge all other nights

I can't wait for the playoffs because it will tell the story...He will have to step up in the playoffs..I'm just not sure if it's just a case of him needing to be the man or have no impact at all...It is kind of alarming that his team in Minny never made the playoffs..Say what you want about Melo, he teams were always in the playoffs in Denver...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2015.html

i am providing you with the link to a page that should clear things up. when looking at the advanced stats you will notice that kevin love's defensive win share is superior to both lebron's and irving's. on espn his real defensive plus/minus has him 10th among power forwards. it turns out that he is an above-average defender-- unless you ignore the advanced metrics.

meanwhile his TS% is at 56% which is not great but is exactly the same as carmelo's better seasons. so if you consider melo an effective scorer then i guess you'll have to say the same about love, and this is with love in a diminished role in cleveland.

and the playoff failure meme is a canard. take a look at those wolves lineups. second-rate and awful. put melo on those teams and it's unmitigated disaster!

So let me get this straight..According to advanced stats, KLove is the best defender on Cleveland Cavs or his defense leads to more wins??

not saying he is the best individual defender-- the stat is not about individual defense. but he is better than you think as a defender and should not be singled out. meanwhile lebron has regressed as a defender. perhaps because he is conserving himself for the playoffs. no harm in that but it means other players have to make up for his relative coasting... and love may be one of those taking up the slack.

again-- the stat i am citing is a team defense stat. so all that is being said is that love is just as effective in defending in the team context as lebron and kyrie, in fact more effective.

i am giving an education in how to utilize advanced stats to deepen your understanding-- don't squander the chance.

meanwhile you said he needs to step up. he has a a 21.7 usage which is basically his one-fifth share while he is on the floor, utterly average. so tell me what exactly does he need to do to step up?

Well first of all, Love is one of the worst defenders I have ever seen play the position..Ranks up there with Amare..I've been watching Cleveland a bit this year wanting to see how individuals mesh as they become a team..They are still a one on one team..Bron has lost a step, no shame there..He can't chase you down anymore..He was a freak..

Back to Love, he is a horrible defender but I still wanted him here because he did other things well..Pass, shoot and rebound..I still need to see him in the playoffs but I'm afraid he will wilt there too..

Love is their weakest defender in the starting lineup..Shumpert has actually been playing much better defense since going to Cleveland..Maybe he doesn't have to worry about other things and just concentrate on defense..Bron and Shump are their best defenders..Love however has better advanced defensive stats than Shump..I'm not really sure why u think there is value in these stats..

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

helloharv wrote:

holfresh wrote:I was a big Love fan and I'm down on him..Alarm bells went off when he didn't really step up on the Olympic team...He really didn't assert himself..Now you are really seeing it on the Cavs...No way I'll give Love 20 mil per...The money can be spent more wisely..I'll rather pass and wait...

don't you think it would be tough for him to be the 3rd wheel after being the man for his entire life?

here he can be the man on some nights and the 2nd in charge all other nights

I can't wait for the playoffs because it will tell the story...He will have to step up in the playoffs..I'm just not sure if it's just a case of him needing to be the man or have no impact at all...It is kind of alarming that his team in Minny never made the playoffs..Say what you want about Melo, he teams were always in the playoffs in Denver...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2015.html

i am providing you with the link to a page that should clear things up. when looking at the advanced stats you will notice that kevin love's defensive win share is superior to both lebron's and irving's. on espn his real defensive plus/minus has him 10th among power forwards. it turns out that he is an above-average defender-- unless you ignore the advanced metrics.

meanwhile his TS% is at 56% which is not great but is exactly the same as carmelo's better seasons. so if you consider melo an effective scorer then i guess you'll have to say the same about love, and this is with love in a diminished role in cleveland.

and the playoff failure meme is a canard. take a look at those wolves lineups. second-rate and awful. put melo on those teams and it's unmitigated disaster!

So let me get this straight..According to advanced stats, KLove is the best defender on Cleveland Cavs or his defense leads to more wins??

not saying he is the best individual defender-- the stat is not about individual defense. but he is better than you think as a defender and should not be singled out. meanwhile lebron has regressed as a defender. perhaps because he is conserving himself for the playoffs. no harm in that but it means other players have to make up for his relative coasting... and love may be one of those taking up the slack.

again-- the stat i am citing is a team defense stat. so all that is being said is that love is just as effective in defending in the team context as lebron and kyrie, in fact more effective.

i am giving an education in how to utilize advanced stats to deepen your understanding-- don't squander the chance.

meanwhile you said he needs to step up. he has a a 21.7 usage which is basically his one-fifth share while he is on the floor, utterly average. so tell me what exactly does he need to do to step up?

Well first of all, Love is one of the worst defenders I have ever seen play the position..Ranks up there with Amare..I've been watching Cleveland a bit this year wanting to see how individuals mesh as they become a team..They are still a one on one team..Bron has lost a step, no shame there..He can't chase you down anymore..He was a freak..

Back to Love, he is a horrible defender but I still wanted him here because he did other things well..Pass, shoot and rebound..I still need to see him in the playoffs but I'm afraid he will wilt there too..

Love is their weakest defender in the starting lineup..Shumpert has actually been playing much better defense since going to Cleveland..Maybe he doesn't have to worry about other things and just concentrate on defense..Bron and Shump are their best defenders..Love however has better advanced defensive stats than Shump..I'm not really sure why u think there is value in these stats..

let me be clear: i love individual defense and i highly value and regard players who can defend the position. i have been saying this all along. players who have superior lateral quickness and are able to fight over illegal screens-- most of the screens we see are moving screens these days-- i enjoy watching and in fact these types of defenders are instrumental to winning it all.

however... there is such a thing as team defense, working as a unit to get stops. in this sense it is hard to see how love is a liability. if bonn1997 is correct, ie that love's defensive numbers rely heavily on defensive rebounds, that still does not negate the assertion that he is doing his share to contribute to his team's defense, since rebounds are considered the last step of a defensive stand. i would also suggest that love is actually pretty effective at the lost art of the box out, and i am certain you will agree the box out is a huge part of playing defense?

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

helloharv wrote:

holfresh wrote:I was a big Love fan and I'm down on him..Alarm bells went off when he didn't really step up on the Olympic team...He really didn't assert himself..Now you are really seeing it on the Cavs...No way I'll give Love 20 mil per...The money can be spent more wisely..I'll rather pass and wait...

don't you think it would be tough for him to be the 3rd wheel after being the man for his entire life?

here he can be the man on some nights and the 2nd in charge all other nights

I can't wait for the playoffs because it will tell the story...He will have to step up in the playoffs..I'm just not sure if it's just a case of him needing to be the man or have no impact at all...It is kind of alarming that his team in Minny never made the playoffs..Say what you want about Melo, he teams were always in the playoffs in Denver...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2015.html

i am providing you with the link to a page that should clear things up. when looking at the advanced stats you will notice that kevin love's defensive win share is superior to both lebron's and irving's. on espn his real defensive plus/minus has him 10th among power forwards. it turns out that he is an above-average defender-- unless you ignore the advanced metrics.

meanwhile his TS% is at 56% which is not great but is exactly the same as carmelo's better seasons. so if you consider melo an effective scorer then i guess you'll have to say the same about love, and this is with love in a diminished role in cleveland.

and the playoff failure meme is a canard. take a look at those wolves lineups. second-rate and awful. put melo on those teams and it's unmitigated disaster!

So let me get this straight..According to advanced stats, KLove is the best defender on Cleveland Cavs or his defense leads to more wins??

not saying he is the best individual defender-- the stat is not about individual defense. but he is better than you think as a defender and should not be singled out. meanwhile lebron has regressed as a defender. perhaps because he is conserving himself for the playoffs. no harm in that but it means other players have to make up for his relative coasting... and love may be one of those taking up the slack.

again-- the stat i am citing is a team defense stat. so all that is being said is that love is just as effective in defending in the team context as lebron and kyrie, in fact more effective.

i am giving an education in how to utilize advanced stats to deepen your understanding-- don't squander the chance.

meanwhile you said he needs to step up. he has a a 21.7 usage which is basically his one-fifth share while he is on the floor, utterly average. so tell me what exactly does he need to do to step up?

Well first of all, Love is one of the worst defenders I have ever seen play the position..Ranks up there with Amare..I've been watching Cleveland a bit this year wanting to see how individuals mesh as they become a team..They are still a one on one team..Bron has lost a step, no shame there..He can't chase you down anymore..He was a freak..

Back to Love, he is a horrible defender but I still wanted him here because he did other things well..Pass, shoot and rebound..I still need to see him in the playoffs but I'm afraid he will wilt there too..

Love is their weakest defender in the starting lineup..Shumpert has actually been playing much better defense since going to Cleveland..Maybe he doesn't have to worry about other things and just concentrate on defense..Bron and Shump are their best defenders..Love however has better advanced defensive stats than Shump..I'm not really sure why u think there is value in these stats..

let me be clear: i love individual defense and i highly value and regard players who can defend the position. i have been saying this all along. players who have superior lateral quickness and are able to fight over illegal screens-- most of the screens we see are moving screens these days-- i enjoy watching and in fact these types of defenders are instrumental to winning it all.

however... there is such a thing as team defense, working as a unit to get stops. in this sense it is hard to see how love is a liability. if bonn1997 is correct, ie that love's defensive numbers rely heavily on defensive rebounds, that still does not negate the assertion that he is doing his share to contribute to his team's defense, since rebounds are considered the last step of a defensive stand. i would also suggest that love is actually pretty effective at the lost art of the box out, and i am certain you will agree the box out is a huge part of playing defense?

I think I'll prefer to know he is a good rebounder but I can't rely on him to stop someone in a key possession..That info is most important in my opinion..If I need someone to defend LeBron on the last shot of the game to go to the Finals, I'm not going to put my best rebounder on him...

David Lee was many things as a player, but my eyes told me he was not a good defender in the way most folks use the word "defense."

Bargnani, a poor rebounder, and a seemingly indifferent help defender, is nonetheless a decent 1/1 defender. I would hope there are metrics which reflect this observation, since there are a number of visible variables which seem to go into the concept of "defense" in this sport.

But I don't see Love sticking around in CLE. I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up being traded to a team like HOU, along with Timofey Mozgov for Dwight Howard, Terrence Jones, a pick and maybe Donatas Manteijunas. I also think a Chris Bosh-Kevin Love swap with the Heat might be a possibility since Bosh is already familiar with playing next to LeBron and is locked into a multi-year deal. Chicago's had a lot of interest in him in the past, so I wouldn't be surprised to see them pony up Pau Gasol and assets (ala a Nikola Mirotic) to make the deal happen. Some elbow grease would have to go into making that deal balanced but I could see this being the framework for something bigger.

WaltLongmire wrote:Seems like the David Lee in his "prime" would have been a good defender according to certain statistical metrics.

David Lee was many things as a player, but my eyes told me he was not a good defender in the way most folks use the word "defense."

Bargnani, a poor rebounder, and a seemingly indifferent help defender, is nonetheless a decent 1/1 defender. I would hope there are metrics which reflect this observation, since there are a number of visible variables which seem to go into the concept of "defense" in this sport.

walt the drpm http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM/position/6 is a team stat based on how well a player plays within the context of team defense.

since basketball is a team game then you have to look at team defense and whether the individual is doing his share to be effective. it isn't five one on one games out there, moreover the introduction of zone defenses into the nba will tend to reinforce further the notion of this team defense statistic. lastly, i would have you reflect on how the 2008 celtics played defense against the lakers in the finals. it is a very good example of how a group of players, few of whom are considered elite one on one defenders, were able to stifle the offense of the opposing team and a prime bryant. "funneling" players into certain parts of the court was a tactic coach rivers used to great effect.

there is also the issue of sheer athleticism compared with defensive court vision, instincts. and then of course coaching.

if you study the rankings from both this season and last season you will see that kevin love more than holds his own. in fact he is ranked higher than david west and lamarcus aldridge. as this is highly counter-intuitive i hope what i laid out above gives this result some credibility.