fishmike wrote:I have a soft spot for Russell as I really coveted him coming out of the draft, I knew we had no shot. He and Harden are comparable talent and impact wise I think. Westbrook plays defense and can lock you down in crunch time. Harden fills the stat sheet a bit more I think but hasnt shown that part of his game (D) as much.

I think Westbrook is seeing the same knocks Melo deals with. Everyone sees the great talent and ability to impact the game, does he make the other guys better? Can he be the best player AND lead?

Thats the key right there. It's one thing to fill up the stat sheet, it's another thing to make everybody better. And I think thats the knock on all three of those guys, Westbrook, Harden and Melo. At least Westbrook and Harden still have some time to change that perception. Melo is running out of time, due to father time.

Westbrook said this himself, that he actually shot the ball too much, instead of trusting his teammates. We've all played against guys like that before.....I know I have. Guys that can fill up the stat sheet....Probably the best player in the gym. But they lose to a team with average dudes, because they have player(s) on that team that makes each other better. So it really depends on your own basketball IQ to really understand. It's hard to say a guy thats been the best player in the NBA lately doesn't make his teammates better. Some people wouldn't understand that. I think with the new players they have now, and without Durrant playing....Westbrook is starting to improve in that category. And his performance will most likely cause him and Durrant to split ways. Durrant or Westbrook will be going to an east coast team when their contract is up. Westbrook is a Cali guy and Durrant is a DC guy. So I suspect both will be trying to go back home. But it's going to be hard for Westbrook to leave, playing like this. OKC will do their best to keep him.

As far as Harden vs Westbrook....I don't watch them that close, but I can see Harden with slight advantage due to his size and multiple positions he can play on offense and especially defense. Also with Westbrooks injury history.

blkexec wrote:

fishmike wrote:I have a soft spot for Russell as I really coveted him coming out of the draft, I knew we had no shot. He and Harden are comparable talent and impact wise I think. Westbrook plays defense and can lock you down in crunch time. Harden fills the stat sheet a bit more I think but hasnt shown that part of his game (D) as much.

I think Westbrook is seeing the same knocks Melo deals with. Everyone sees the great talent and ability to impact the game, does he make the other guys better? Can he be the best player AND lead?

Thats the key right there. It's one thing to fill up the stat sheet, it's another thing to make everybody better. And I think thats the knock on all three of those guys, Westbrook, Harden and Melo. At least Westbrook and Harden still have some time to change that perception. Melo is running out of time, due to father time.

Westbrook said this himself, that he actually shot the ball too much, instead of trusting his teammates. We've all played against guys like that before.....I know I have. Guys that can fill up the stat sheet....Probably the best player in the gym. But they lose to a team with average dudes, because they have player(s) on that team that makes each other better. So it really depends on your own basketball IQ to really understand. It's hard to say a guy thats been the best player in the NBA lately doesn't make his teammates better. Some people wouldn't understand that. I think with the new players they have now, and without Durrant playing....Westbrook is starting to improve in that category. And his performance will most likely cause him and Durrant to split ways. Durrant or Westbrook will be going to an east coast team when their contract is up. Westbrook is a Cali guy and Durrant is a DC guy. So I suspect both will be trying to go back home. But it's going to be hard for Westbrook to leave, playing like this. OKC will do their best to keep him.

As far as Harden vs Westbrook....I don't watch them that close, but I can see Harden with slight advantage due to his size and multiple positions he can play on offense and especially defense. Also with Westbrooks injury history.

Harden is averaging 7.1 assists a game as an SG!!! How the heck is that not making his teammates better? And, when he shoots it himself, he is uber efficient. The stat sheet says if you are making your teammates better. Its like saying that Harden does not really have a beard, he just puts some sh1t on his face.

Now if you say that Melo who is far less efficient and is only averaging 3 assists a game is not really making his teammates better, that makes a bit more sense.

Knicks1969 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:It is all depend on what you like in a player. Some like guys like Carmelo or Harden who can flat out score the ball, some like all around players like Kobe, Lebron, Wade type players who can affect many parts of the game.

Russell's desire to win is right up there with Kobe and Jordan

Harden is an SG averaging 6 boards, 7 assists, 2 steals, and a block a game.

Your point exactly is???? He does nothing that Russell does not do.

The point is that you sound uninformed when you call him only a scorer and not a guy who can affect many parts of the game

blkexec wrote:

RonRon wrote:Westbrook is a player with talents/physical abilties that is once in decades, like a D12/Shaq at the Guard position, and he hurt his knee/loss athleticism
He is in a groove right now and has taken a HUGE STEP forward this year in terms of finding the balance to scoring/facilitating/creating for others and taking the mid range game in addition to his strength of finishing in the paint with contact

Much credit is desrved to the players in OKC who are ALL GYM RATS and have great work ethic in addition to their talents and physical abilities
It has a ripple effect on each other, multiplying in the gym/practice, and Nick Collison *though a role player has brought that work ethic/professionism with Durant, Jeff Green, Westbrook, Harden, Ibaka, Reggie Jackson, Steven Adams, Mitch McGary, and now adding Kanter/DJ Augistine/Waiters/Anthony Morrow/Kyle Singler/Novak to that mix and we will see how they can get even better than they were with their past teams like
both JR Smith/Iman Shumpert did when they were traded to Cleveland

Perry Jones and Jeremy Lamb will have to step it up who has the physical skills to be better players, though Jones showed some promise prior to his injury when Durant/Westbrook were out earlier in the year, while Lamb has been inconsistent throughout his career who had potential to be one of the better shooters in his class

Durant
Westbrook
Harden

are all LEGIT #1 talents that could be the #1 building block for ANY NBA franchise talents

Scary part is that they could have had James Harden, Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka, as their BIG 4 who could have been a dynasty had they been with a team that has the ability to spend/keep their talents

Great teams have a great development staff, look at Spurs, Golden State, OKC, Bulls, Hawks, and you can see that is the difference in terms of development

The problem with that is great players need the right environment to be great. Harden playing with Westbrook and Durant didn't allow Harden to grow into the player he is now. So theres a limit to everything. And some players are great in certain situations, while others are not. Thats why Harden went to Texas....It was a smart move for his career. Durrant getting hurt and OKC making those trades turned out to be a smart move for OKC and Westbrook is enjoying the fruits.

Back to the other poster about using stats like Hardens assist numbers to justify that he's making his teammates better. Thats what none basketball players do. So I'm not surprised.....but I disagree.

Marbury averaged 20 and 10....but I bet you would never put him in the same category as Harden or say he made teammates better. It took Marbury to go to China for his game to mature. You can't use stats to measure how a player makes others better. Like I said before, if your basketball IQ is on a different level than mine, then we will never agree on certain things.....

I haven't studied Harden too much, but there are players that will dribble all day, while others just watched in frustration. Looking somebody off most of the time, and only passing because you have no other choice (while hanging in the air) is not making your teammates better. Just to give you an example how stats alone has it's flaws.

obviously.

marbury did not avg. 10 assists, he averaged 7.6. And, being that you are a PG, you would know that comparing Marbury who was a PG to Harden who is not one is ridiculous.

Harden was great in OKC too with just lower USG.

Are you actually suggesting that OKC may be better off without Harden? Can't be so I am assuming that I read this wrong.

And Durant getting hurt was not a "smart" move by OKC. How is that smart?

How do you know when a player makes others better? You IQ?

Uptown wrote:

mreinman wrote:

blkexec wrote:

RonRon wrote:Westbrook is a player with talents/physical abilties that is once in decades, like a D12/Shaq at the Guard position, and he hurt his knee/loss athleticism
He is in a groove right now and has taken a HUGE STEP forward this year in terms of finding the balance to scoring/facilitating/creating for others and taking the mid range game in addition to his strength of finishing in the paint with contact

Much credit is desrved to the players in OKC who are ALL GYM RATS and have great work ethic in addition to their talents and physical abilities
It has a ripple effect on each other, multiplying in the gym/practice, and Nick Collison *though a role player has brought that work ethic/professionism with Durant, Jeff Green, Westbrook, Harden, Ibaka, Reggie Jackson, Steven Adams, Mitch McGary, and now adding Kanter/DJ Augistine/Waiters/Anthony Morrow/Kyle Singler/Novak to that mix and we will see how they can get even better than they were with their past teams like
both JR Smith/Iman Shumpert did when they were traded to Cleveland

Perry Jones and Jeremy Lamb will have to step it up who has the physical skills to be better players, though Jones showed some promise prior to his injury when Durant/Westbrook were out earlier in the year, while Lamb has been inconsistent throughout his career who had potential to be one of the better shooters in his class

Durant
Westbrook
Harden

are all LEGIT #1 talents that could be the #1 building block for ANY NBA franchise talents

Scary part is that they could have had James Harden, Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka, as their BIG 4 who could have been a dynasty had they been with a team that has the ability to spend/keep their talents

Great teams have a great development staff, look at Spurs, Golden State, OKC, Bulls, Hawks, and you can see that is the difference in terms of development

The problem with that is great players need the right environment to be great. Harden playing with Westbrook and Durant didn't allow Harden to grow into the player he is now. So theres a limit to everything. And some players are great in certain situations, while others are not. Thats why Harden went to Texas....It was a smart move for his career. Durrant getting hurt and OKC making those trades turned out to be a smart move for OKC and Westbrook is enjoying the fruits.

Back to the other poster about using stats like Hardens assist numbers to justify that he's making his teammates better. Thats what none basketball players do. So I'm not surprised.....but I disagree.

Marbury averaged 20 and 10....but I bet you would never put him in the same category as Harden or say he made teammates better. It took Marbury to go to China for his game to mature. You can't use stats to measure how a player makes others better. Like I said before, if your basketball IQ is on a different level than mine, then we will never agree on certain things.....

I haven't studied Harden too much, but there are players that will dribble all day, while others just watched in frustration. Looking somebody off most of the time, and only passing because you have no other choice (while hanging in the air) is not making your teammates better. Just to give you an example how stats alone has it's flaws.

obviously.

marbury did not avg. 10 assists, he averaged 7.6. And, being that you are a PG, you would know that comparing Marbury who was a PG to Harden who is not one is ridiculous.

Harden was great in OKC too with just lower USG.

Are you actually suggesting that OKC may be better off without Harden? Can't be so I am assuming that I read this wrong.

And Durant getting hurt was not a "smart" move by OKC. How is that smart?

How do you know when a player makes others better? You IQ?

Not to speak for blkexec, but i think he meant Marb put up 20 and 10 in a season (20 & 9 in 04 i believe). Also, i agree ths comparing a pg to a sg is silly. Jus as silly as comparing a lead guard in Harden to a scoring forward like Melo.

Melo should be at a 4.5+ assits a game, not 7 like Harden. The point with Melo is that he needs to pass more. Everyone knows this.

I did not think that even Melo defenders at this point could say that he does not pass the ball nearly enough (without making excuses).

Uptown wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Uptown wrote:

mreinman wrote:

blkexec wrote:

RonRon wrote:Westbrook is a player with talents/physical abilties that is once in decades, like a D12/Shaq at the Guard position, and he hurt his knee/loss athleticism
He is in a groove right now and has taken a HUGE STEP forward this year in terms of finding the balance to scoring/facilitating/creating for others and taking the mid range game in addition to his strength of finishing in the paint with contact

Much credit is desrved to the players in OKC who are ALL GYM RATS and have great work ethic in addition to their talents and physical abilities
It has a ripple effect on each other, multiplying in the gym/practice, and Nick Collison *though a role player has brought that work ethic/professionism with Durant, Jeff Green, Westbrook, Harden, Ibaka, Reggie Jackson, Steven Adams, Mitch McGary, and now adding Kanter/DJ Augistine/Waiters/Anthony Morrow/Kyle Singler/Novak to that mix and we will see how they can get even better than they were with their past teams like
both JR Smith/Iman Shumpert did when they were traded to Cleveland

Perry Jones and Jeremy Lamb will have to step it up who has the physical skills to be better players, though Jones showed some promise prior to his injury when Durant/Westbrook were out earlier in the year, while Lamb has been inconsistent throughout his career who had potential to be one of the better shooters in his class

Durant
Westbrook
Harden

are all LEGIT #1 talents that could be the #1 building block for ANY NBA franchise talents

Scary part is that they could have had James Harden, Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka, as their BIG 4 who could have been a dynasty had they been with a team that has the ability to spend/keep their talents

Great teams have a great development staff, look at Spurs, Golden State, OKC, Bulls, Hawks, and you can see that is the difference in terms of development

The problem with that is great players need the right environment to be great. Harden playing with Westbrook and Durant didn't allow Harden to grow into the player he is now. So theres a limit to everything. And some players are great in certain situations, while others are not. Thats why Harden went to Texas....It was a smart move for his career. Durrant getting hurt and OKC making those trades turned out to be a smart move for OKC and Westbrook is enjoying the fruits.

Back to the other poster about using stats like Hardens assist numbers to justify that he's making his teammates better. Thats what none basketball players do. So I'm not surprised.....but I disagree.

Marbury averaged 20 and 10....but I bet you would never put him in the same category as Harden or say he made teammates better. It took Marbury to go to China for his game to mature. You can't use stats to measure how a player makes others better. Like I said before, if your basketball IQ is on a different level than mine, then we will never agree on certain things.....

I haven't studied Harden too much, but there are players that will dribble all day, while others just watched in frustration. Looking somebody off most of the time, and only passing because you have no other choice (while hanging in the air) is not making your teammates better. Just to give you an example how stats alone has it's flaws.

obviously.

marbury did not avg. 10 assists, he averaged 7.6. And, being that you are a PG, you would know that comparing Marbury who was a PG to Harden who is not one is ridiculous.

Harden was great in OKC too with just lower USG.

Are you actually suggesting that OKC may be better off without Harden? Can't be so I am assuming that I read this wrong.

And Durant getting hurt was not a "smart" move by OKC. How is that smart?

How do you know when a player makes others better? You IQ?

Not to speak for blkexec, but i think he meant Marb put up 20 and 10 in a season (20 & 9 in 04 i believe). Also, i agree ths comparing a pg to a sg is silly. Jus as silly as comparing a lead guard in Harden to a scoring forward like Melo.

Melo should be at a 4.5+ assits a game, not 7 like Harden. The point with Melo is that he needs to pass more. Everyone knows this.

I did not think that even Melo defenders at this point could say that he does not pass the ball nearly enough (without making excuses).

Who wouldn't want to see Melo pass the ball more? Melo is who he is, a Scorer. And I accept that and tend not to always harp on his negatives (not saying that you do, jusy making a point)

Melo is cut from the same cloth as Bernard King (Career average 3 ast), Adrian Dantley (Career average 3 ast), Dominique Wilkins (Career average 2.5 ast), George Gervin (career average 2.8 ast), Alex English (Career average 3.6 ast), Mark Aquire (career average 3.7 ast)......Melo is who he is, a scoring small forward.....Not making excuses but we've seen this type of ball player before....

He is who he is, he is a scorer ... that line may last for another year.

At this point, he does not score efficiently enough, does not pass nearly enough, he is getting older, he is a less than average defender, he gets paid like he is the best player in the league when he now barely cracks the top 15 (and that is being very generous).

by next season, this may get really ugly for him. I hope not.

I went into this year with an open mind with him. He was gonna be more of a team player, Phil was gonna get to him, Melo wins ... checkmate ... "ain't nobody changing me dawg"

he is who he is. that is disappointing. Why are we happy with that? Durant has guys trying to better him every day. Why is it always that he is who he is? I was so hoping that Phil was gonna be that guy to get to him. Nobody is getting to him. We should have realized that with the fake discount and the no trade clause. Was not a good sign, yet I still held out that Phil would make him a better player.

I am no longer holding out. I agree with you. He is who he is and is not getting better, probably worse.

28-11 when he scores under 30.

Looks like a Marbury issur to me. PG's can't lead their teams in shot attempts. Wizards were better last year because Wall passed and lead.

It's still Durants team unless he leaves

Uptown wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Uptown wrote:

mreinman wrote:

blkexec wrote:

RonRon wrote:Westbrook is a player with talents/physical abilties that is once in decades, like a D12/Shaq at the Guard position, and he hurt his knee/loss athleticism
He is in a groove right now and has taken a HUGE STEP forward this year in terms of finding the balance to scoring/facilitating/creating for others and taking the mid range game in addition to his strength of finishing in the paint with contact

Much credit is desrved to the players in OKC who are ALL GYM RATS and have great work ethic in addition to their talents and physical abilities
It has a ripple effect on each other, multiplying in the gym/practice, and Nick Collison *though a role player has brought that work ethic/professionism with Durant, Jeff Green, Westbrook, Harden, Ibaka, Reggie Jackson, Steven Adams, Mitch McGary, and now adding Kanter/DJ Augistine/Waiters/Anthony Morrow/Kyle Singler/Novak to that mix and we will see how they can get even better than they were with their past teams like
both JR Smith/Iman Shumpert did when they were traded to Cleveland

Perry Jones and Jeremy Lamb will have to step it up who has the physical skills to be better players, though Jones showed some promise prior to his injury when Durant/Westbrook were out earlier in the year, while Lamb has been inconsistent throughout his career who had potential to be one of the better shooters in his class

Durant
Westbrook
Harden

are all LEGIT #1 talents that could be the #1 building block for ANY NBA franchise talents

Scary part is that they could have had James Harden, Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka, as their BIG 4 who could have been a dynasty had they been with a team that has the ability to spend/keep their talents

Great teams have a great development staff, look at Spurs, Golden State, OKC, Bulls, Hawks, and you can see that is the difference in terms of development

The problem with that is great players need the right environment to be great. Harden playing with Westbrook and Durant didn't allow Harden to grow into the player he is now. So theres a limit to everything. And some players are great in certain situations, while others are not. Thats why Harden went to Texas....It was a smart move for his career. Durrant getting hurt and OKC making those trades turned out to be a smart move for OKC and Westbrook is enjoying the fruits.

Back to the other poster about using stats like Hardens assist numbers to justify that he's making his teammates better. Thats what none basketball players do. So I'm not surprised.....but I disagree.

Marbury averaged 20 and 10....but I bet you would never put him in the same category as Harden or say he made teammates better. It took Marbury to go to China for his game to mature. You can't use stats to measure how a player makes others better. Like I said before, if your basketball IQ is on a different level than mine, then we will never agree on certain things.....

I haven't studied Harden too much, but there are players that will dribble all day, while others just watched in frustration. Looking somebody off most of the time, and only passing because you have no other choice (while hanging in the air) is not making your teammates better. Just to give you an example how stats alone has it's flaws.

obviously.

marbury did not avg. 10 assists, he averaged 7.6. And, being that you are a PG, you would know that comparing Marbury who was a PG to Harden who is not one is ridiculous.

Harden was great in OKC too with just lower USG.

Are you actually suggesting that OKC may be better off without Harden? Can't be so I am assuming that I read this wrong.

And Durant getting hurt was not a "smart" move by OKC. How is that smart?

How do you know when a player makes others better? You IQ?

Not to speak for blkexec, but i think he meant Marb put up 20 and 10 in a season (20 & 9 in 04 i believe). Also, i agree ths comparing a pg to a sg is silly. Jus as silly as comparing a lead guard in Harden to a scoring forward like Melo.

Melo should be at a 4.5+ assits a game, not 7 like Harden. The point with Melo is that he needs to pass more. Everyone knows this.

I did not think that even Melo defenders at this point could say that he does not pass the ball nearly enough (without making excuses).

Who wouldn't want to see Melo pass the ball more? Melo is who he is, a Scorer. And I accept that and tend not to always harp on his negatives (not saying that you do, jusy making a point)

Melo is cut from the same cloth as Bernard King (Career average 3 ast), Adrian Dantley (Career average 3 ast), Dominique Wilkins (Career average 2.5 ast), George Gervin (career average 2.8 ast), Alex English (Career average 3.6 ast), Mark Aquire (career average 3.7 ast)......Melo is who he is, a scoring small forward.....Not making excuses but we've seen this type of ball player before....

It is not that simple. Of the players you cited, they were primary options, but in most cases they scored in the flow of the game far more than Melo. In particular, Bernard, Gervin and English didn't spend all day on the wing pounding the rock to get off their shots like Melo does. They could and did, but not every damn time down the floor.

That ability to get off your shot without excess handling impacts team flow a great deal and becomes a key factor in how an alpha scorer affects the rest of the team even if they do not have high assist numbers. Melo is a ball stopper far more than most top scorers have been historically.